This would also be an excellent way to introduce one of my favorite aspects of Rogue Trader back into modern 40k: Non-Chaos Renegade marines. Have them be isolated marines who got trapped defending various planets, and whose pyschic conditioning degraded as the Imperium didn't heed their prayers for aid, becoming more like the humans they defend and acting as local sheriffs, perhaps still loving the Emperor, but finding the modern Imperium to be an abomination that abandoned them and their people, and thus going Renegade without supergluing spikes and severed knobs all over their armor.

@blindlobster

2 жыл бұрын

You should be able to make such a renegade Space Marine army with a regular Space Marines codex

@Mr_Tovarish

2 жыл бұрын

YESSSS THIS!

@thenerfkid9228

2 жыл бұрын

my celestial lions are doing this now cool rad thanks

@CrunchyRhombus

2 жыл бұрын

"...acting as local sheriffs" Just Googled '40k space marine cowboy', and was NOT disappointed!

@philipkelly7369

2 жыл бұрын

Are the Soul Drinkers not still non-chaos renegades?

I sorta like the idea that the Imperium is kinda the only option, but only because by its own volition it destroyed every other possible option, seems to be what they’re building up at the moment

What annoys me is the Tau were a good chance to make not good guys, But a coalition of alien races working together and having other factions unable to just destroy them despite there age as a civ and size. But then james workshop pressed the grimderp button

@TwoSouthFarm

Ай бұрын

Apparently, standing not even a slimmer chance to survive threats thousands of times bigger than the size of T'au Empire is not dark enough for a lot of people. tbf, even in 3rd edition, there are some subtle hints to the T'au Empire being not entirely good, maybe 90% okay and 10% "that's kinda sussy". But then again, I doubt people who whine about the T'au not being dark could sniff out those grey signs anyway.

@blade8741

Ай бұрын

See the tau empire is still a "good faction" in the WH40K setting. Just... Dont take it from 40k and put somewhere else. They would be objectively the most evil faction.

@anti-mate407

15 күн бұрын

gw bashed the tau a lil too much imo, they shouldve stuck to keeping tau as the "straight man" of warhammer 40k

@blade8741

15 күн бұрын

@@anti-mate407 tbf, the universe itself is hostile to these ideals. Its hard to keep a straight man in a universe that can and will devour you given the chance.

@anti-mate407

15 күн бұрын

@@blade8741 thats just a cheap excuse gw uses to be lazy

Follow-up: how cool would it be that the 2 missing primarchs never did anything wrong nor heretical, only they peeked beyond the veil: there can be a viable human society outside the Imperium and that's why they were executed/held in the Black Cells

@alejandrorp5160

2 жыл бұрын

Adding to that: what if that’s why most Primarchs can’t recall anything about them. Emps being Emps. What if Russ - we know how he values self reliance and independence and also how he only looks as being a savage- actually spared them - seeing some weight to their arguments but staying loyal to Emps- and let them go? What if he eventually left everything to check on them/ally with them to fight Chaos?

@euansmith3699

2 жыл бұрын

That's a great idea. Maybe they were even sent by the Emperor to set up some kind of fail-safe in case the Imperium gets too self destructive.

@electricfeverx976

2 жыл бұрын

@@alejandrorp5160 this doesn't work, Canon stories have had the other Primarchs talk about how the 2 "missing" Primarchs had suffered a horrible fate. And Horus even tried to dare speak their names to Malcador but failed to do so before Malcador knocked him down. So with current canon every Primarch knows what happened to the 2 of them and it was likely Russ killed them.

@navilluscire2567

Жыл бұрын

I always liked to think that one of the missing two had landed on a world not dominated by humans but he was raised by a now extinct alien species. Meanwhile the other one landed on a world were humans and aliens lived together in harmony, raised even by a mixed species family. Now this actually wouldn't have been much of an issue in of itself for the Emperor, so long as these two wayward sons pledged loyalty to him and got to crusading in his golden name and etc. No, it was because both ill fated Primarchs utterly rejected the Imperium's human supremacist rhetoric and the mankind's manifest destiny narrative bullsh*t, instead both wanted to create similar interstellar civilizations were all species could live together in peace. Basically they wanted to do a t'au empire of multiple species before they even discovered fire but were humans and aliens would be on equal footing. One of them may have even suggested that the Emperor should create new Primarchs NOT based on humans but on the various other species across the galaxy to help further their dreams of a hopeful future. This did NOT go over well with the Emperor, hence their untimely deaths!

@TheNightmareRider

10 ай бұрын

You know the meme about "Magnus did nothing wrong"? Well, the reason he became a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch was because Horus intercepted the Emperor's message, telling the Space Wolves to burn Prospero when Magnus was meant to stand trial on Terra. Imagine an offshoot/renegade warband of the OG Thousand Sons who weren't present on Prospero, and thus not subjected to the Rubric of Ahriman. There are already Blackshields who were once part of the Emperor's Children, so a greater focus on that would make for some excellent storytelling!

"I'm the good guy" said Eisenhorn whilst psychic suicide bombing a Café Nero in a very heroic fashion, whilst keeping a pet demon in his pantry.

@davemeggison4283

2 жыл бұрын

Yup, but no bad guy thinks they are the bad guy, people thinking he's the good guy miss the point (just as some do with the setting in general)

@ArbitorIan

2 жыл бұрын

Weellllllll. He was kinda ok in Xenos, right? RIGHT?

@briochepanda

2 жыл бұрын

@@davemeggison4283 Indeed, its not so much a fall from grace is it is a pivot into a different brand of madness. Eisenhorn is a great example of how unlikable people can be very compelling.

@davemeggison4283

2 жыл бұрын

@@briochepanda Also a great example that the protagonist is not necessarily the hero

@davemeggison4283

2 жыл бұрын

@@ArbitorIan Oh yeah, he was great when he was just trying to preserve the structures of the oppressive, xenophobic, totalitarian Empire that subjugates quadrillions, as soon as he started messing around with demons he went right of the deep end though.... Great videos by the way mate

This actually echoes an idea I had for a faction based around some 30K models but in 40K: What's the Imperium's greatest nightmare? A functioning human civilization, who'd backslid technologically as the Imperium had, but whose society was directly derived from the pre-age-of-strife human federation - and that was just a bit too big, or in a spot that was too strategically awkward, for the Imperium to squash. I had them on the trailing edge of the halo stars, and they were acting as a bulwark against a Slaugth empire that the inquisition has decided the Imperium is not (yet) ready to tangle with, especially given current events.

@Philip271828

8 ай бұрын

That sounds a little like the Tau?

@MatzeMania90

7 ай бұрын

​@@Philip271828 The "Join us or get extinct" Tau?

@Randomdudefromtheinternet

4 күн бұрын

Maybe the people that are hidden behind the Cicatrix Maledictum would eventually become this.

The Hammer and Bolter episode “In the Garden of Ghosts” does a wonderful job of portraying the Imperium as it seems through the eyes of another faction. They didn’t even hedge their bets by making the Space Marines Flesh Tearers or Black Templars or some other “disreputable” chapter. No, they went right for the jugular and made them the shining Ultramarines; bastions of courage and honour.

@ExternalDialogue

2 жыл бұрын

The scene of the dreadnaught mowing down civilians with a weapon that could take out a light tank while chanting about the "emperors mercy" is just, yeah... Thats how the imperium should be depicted. Also i do think "Bound for Greatness" is a pretty good critique of the imperium too. Showing that the institutions that are supposed to be responsible for quashing the influence of chaos can easily be pawns of the dark gods and be the means by which a planet succumbs to chaos corruption.

@marcusaaronliaogo9158

2 жыл бұрын

Too bad that hammer and bolter has the quality of a powerpoint presentation

@guidohockmann7153

2 жыл бұрын

@@marcusaaronliaogo9158 To each their own, I guess. To me it has a "Liquid Television" vibe (if you're old enough to remember). Either way, its strength is not in the artwork but in the stories.

@ataerus3066

2 жыл бұрын

That was quite confusing to me though? Why would the ultras attack a civilian world if not provoked? Especially when gulliman is literally meeting with eldar to advise him on the imperiums future?

@reubenmccallum3350

2 жыл бұрын

@@ataerus3066 because they're intolerant fascists? And in the real world, fascists do dumb self-defeating stuff all the time. Operation Barbarossa, for example.

Hang on a minute... The path Ian suggests, of a greater emphasis on splintered human societies cut off from the Imperium that develop their own societies and way of doing things (and possibly even their own distinct genetic evolutions which leads them to becoming, over the millennia, their own distinct sub-species) rings a bell for me... 40k HAD that. But they got Squatted. Time to bring back the Wee Grumpy Bastards!

@stevepirie8130

2 жыл бұрын

The Great Crusade as well had an abundance of lost human worlds and it never finished so in theory there may be a lot still out there. I liked that about the first Horus Heresy books.

@peterclarke7240

2 жыл бұрын

@@stevepirie8130 It was true when I got into 40k back in first edn. It's probably why I'm trying to build a separatist guard army, because I just like being contrarian and want to play the 40k I remember as a kid 🤣

@JAHogshead

2 жыл бұрын

I mean sure but by the designer’s own admission the squats only fit in 1st edition an by second were a little too goofy and didn’t really have any growth for a line. I like them as auxiliary units*coughbringbackroughriders* but as a stand alone I don’t think they would work well.

@JAHogshead

2 жыл бұрын

@Indigo Rodent we just need to petition to make the new squat niche be flatpacked furniture and fairly priced cafeteria meatballs.

@keymer91

2 жыл бұрын

Love it

I found out that plenty of people were hoping the Imperium Nihilus would be this "free for all" realm that you're describing in the video, and it is an untapped source of interesting stories and factions. It would allow people to turn their Imperial armies into independent factions without need for a different army to be made by GW. Kind of like how in Warhammer Fantasy, the Border Princes were a way for people to make their own little factions out of existing kits and armies. Still, an actual Rebel faction could also be an interesting introduction. I truly believe that the Squats might be a very good contender for that. In fact, the fluff from Rogue Trader and second edition kind of directed them into that archetype and would be a very nice way reintroducing them into the setting.

@ArbitorIan

2 жыл бұрын

I am ABSOLUTELY FINE with the idea of Squats returning as the closest-to-good faction!

@marcusaaronliaogo9158

2 жыл бұрын

@@ArbitorIan why does the old space marine shooting an ork feel like meme potential

@HeartlessNinny1

2 жыл бұрын

@@ArbitorIan me too 🙂

@matthewcampbell3146

2 жыл бұрын

Maybe rouge traders too. Sure they can be greedy and out for themselves but that would give them reason to break away and fight the imperium

@normalin1stofhisname

2 жыл бұрын

@@paulyg405 to be fair, those are the squats that have been included in the imperium. The homeworlds and their ships are potentially still out there - isolated, independent and so very, very dwarfy. You can imagine it now. An imperial ship, spat out of the warp, all the consoles fried bar the astropath, still barely hanging into life and sanity. And then, a single message is received... Or rather, a ongoing series of messages. *Diggy Diggy Hole intensifies*

I think a good first step would be to add a faction where the leader was some sort of travelling merchant with a retinue of security to ensure that the goods don't get taken. We could name the hypothetical 10th edition after this faction, a Warhammer 40,000 Rogue trader if you will.

@navilluscire2567

2 жыл бұрын

Rogue trader founded empires that officially succeed from and resisted re-conquest by the Imperium would be awesome to read about!

@NoNoNah306

Жыл бұрын

@@navilluscire2567 There is an official one The Severan Dominate. They have a very Roman aesthetic. They're not much less authoritarian thank the Imperium but they are independent. They were made for the Fantasy Flight ttrpg though and they've since lost the licence so they probably aren't coming back.

@SusCalvin

Жыл бұрын

There is an imperial merchant marine. They are not rogue traders, they don't have fancy writs giving them rights like that. But they are the ones moving basic goods around a sector or subsector within established imperial space. Ships are hugely expensive things so only large merchant combines own them. These guys aren't a full military faction but they have their escort ships and household troops.

@SusCalvin

Жыл бұрын

@@NoNoNah306 You get to fight them in Only War. They're one of the possible warfronts of the Calixis sector I think. They are practically a little pocket empire holding out for a time while the Imperium deals with a constant array of threats. One thing you could do in Only War was to play in the low-priority warzones where you and four other regiments are all that's available and you're doing mop-up actions or garrison duty.

@kayosiiii

Жыл бұрын

@@SusCalvin sorry that was a very elaborate setup for a joke about Games Workshop reusing the same names over and over.

I thought the overarching view of the emperor had was that once he had conquered the galaxy, he would usher in a time of peace and prosperity. With the going narrative that the imperium now is a twisted warped version of what it was meant to be. Therefore the imperium now not really being a necessary evil but rather a failed version of what could have been - with guilliman confirming as much with his disgust at the current state of the imperium, while also comparing it to the blissful peace of the worlds of ultramar.

@ArbitorIan

Жыл бұрын

That's true, but in the Heresy novels that's questioned a LOT. The Imperium he's building is still very much a brutal dictatorship, just a more benevolent one.

@jameswong4837

Жыл бұрын

@@ArbitorIan that’s fair enough… gotta force those worlds into compliance somehow…. Those poor interex 😂

@GusOfTheDorks

Жыл бұрын

​@@jameswong4837 I mean he literaly sets up an Imperial senate, installs a democratic council to lead terra, and is trying to conquer the webway so that it can be used as a form of transport and communication so tjat mankind can effectively rule itself. But sure, the blue anon guy says a random thing is alt right so ignore that.

@Conantuts-uk6mt

Ай бұрын

@@GusOfTheDorks I mean there was still a senate in the days of the emperor but that didn't suddenly make caesar not a dictator and the emperors also did a lot of horrific shit in the name of the empire when not doing those things was always possible. The emperor and the supposed golden years of the empire are themselves a critique of benevolent dictators and what is justified in the name of bettering an empire and acquiring resources because well it all went to shit and collapsed into dogmatism and fanaticism pretty fast now didn't it.

I've often wondered if the reason the Squats were so easily removed from 40k wasn't because they were too similar to the Imperial Guard as a faction, but because they were one of the few races that weren't demonstrably "bad." They just wanted to be left alone so they could dig holes and play with their train sets. 🤣

@101Mant

2 жыл бұрын

Interesting point, there really wasn't anything wrong or suspicious about them, didn't buy into the superstition around technology (back when the superstition was objectively wrong before machine spirits moved from a silly belief to an actual thing) they weren't a shadow of their former glory like the Eldar of mankind. They didn't like Orks and Eldar but for good reason and really who would? Definitely the most sane and reasonable faction.

@cheesemarine

2 жыл бұрын

Today I've realised that I am a tall squat... 😂

@peterclarke7240

2 жыл бұрын

@@cheesemarine Look up a certain Terry Pratchett character called Carrot Ironfoundersson. I think you'll like him.

@danielmorgenstern3942

2 жыл бұрын

I mean they did have some serious prejudice against the entire races of Eldar and Orks

@darkstar1360

2 жыл бұрын

@@danielmorgenstern3942 Yes, but that come from the Eldar leaving them high and dry when the Orks made a sudden attack on there home world. it was especially bad given that the Eldar AND the Orks were major trading partners with the Squart up until then. So really its less prejudice as more a long held grudge.

I’d just love to see RG proclaiming the Imperial Truth, the Ecclesiarchy being none too pleased about it and the Indomitus Crusade being declared the Indomitus Heresy

We kind of already have this, with the Votann and the T'au. The other options don't HAVE to be human, as long as it's close enough. I really think the main issue is that everything is written from an Imperial perspective. Even if what you suggest here happened, it wouldn't do much good unless we actually got some stories where those other factions are the protagonists.

I have always felt that the "Imperial" Knights fit this mold aswell, if you look closely at their lore the Questoris Familia aren't truly Imperial citizens. They are actually (extremely) long term mercenaries bound by oaths and on the Questoris Mechanicus side by blood connections more so than law and if the Imperium or Mechanicus failed to uphold their end of the bargan these oaths would be broken and they wouldn't have a reason to fight for them; not to mention they are technically the last remaining remnants of pre imperial humanity and have the ancestral memories/spirits to prove it due to the mechanisms behind Knight bonding.

@navilluscire2567

2 жыл бұрын

The Imperial knights, basically human mecha suits and their pilots are some of the most interesting parts of the lore, there's a lot you can do with them! Also imagine some mecha knights and t'au crisis suits duking it out only to put that on hold to...fight of an Imperium expeditionary force set to reintegrate the world their own back into their fold.

Isn't some of the irony that the Imperium isn't a necessary evil? Humanity during the golden age and even dark ages didn't need to be so repressive. The imperium tells us it's necessary because it served their interests and silences anyone who says otherwise just like a true big bad government would.

@forickgrimaldus8301

3 ай бұрын

Yes but also No, the Imperium of Man is essential an Extreme Response to the Age of Strife and the Subsequent issues faced by Humanity after it especially from the limiting POV of the Big E, AI was Banned because it Rebelled, Xenos are to be destroyed because they took advantage of Humanity's Weakened state, the Planets of Humanity were divided and persue their own interests and finally the Chaos Gods want to feed on Humanity, In Response the Big E Made the Imperium of Man a Xenophobic, Totalitarian, Anti Religious and Accelerationist State in response to this, at this point the Big E Wants to Solve these issues by literally and Metaphorically "Evolving" Mankind at Any Cost be it Moral or Lives Lost the Emperor Calously Didn't care, After the HH an Ultra Conservative Mindset set in, Thanks to the Emperor's Hard Handedness His Cult of Personality transformed into a Religion, His Words are now Used and Abused by Many Parties in the Imperium, this Ultra Conservative Response to the HH while not Completely Unjustified is an enevitable response by a Society that Saw its Near Destruction Twice. In Short while the IOM has some Merit in what they do and did, its ultimately less of a Measured and Calculated Response and more them Trying to fight fire with fire or more basically the IOM said to itself "why should I care to be Better when everyone I see is Bad, in fact I should be Worse because it insulates me".

I love the idea of offshoot human societies existing outside the Imperium and bringing some focus to them. You can even attach some Marines to these societies because I think it should be possible for a chapter to go 'renegade' without joining Chaos.

@soupalex

2 жыл бұрын

i mean, the badab war (and the fallen, maybe?) kind of exemplifies this. ofc the astral claws/red corsairs did eventually turn to chaos, but it isn't clear that they were deliberately set on this path by chaos ("tzeentch did it" is fine sometimes, but used as a post-hoc explanation for why this or that thing happened, it's just lazy), much less that there was some undetected chaos "taint". also the lamenters and other chapters that joined with the secessionists... definitely not chaos-tainted, they just had-arguably-completely legitimate, very astartes-appropriate reasons (debts of honour, sacred duties to protect the local populace, etc.) for resisting the administratum.

@mojotheaverage

2 жыл бұрын

I love the idea. I really wish there were more prominent renegade chapters that don't immediately fall to chaos. My biggest complaint about the badab war storyline was always that once it was over huron fell to chaos, he was so much more interesting as space marine who initially just disagreed with the imperium and gradually became a despotic tyrant no better than the tyrants he fought against. Now he's just another generic csm but with a big flame claw.

@soupalex

2 жыл бұрын

@@mojotheaverage "i hate the imperium because (e.g.) the administratum is a soulless machine that only exists to extract wealth from its citizens irrespective of their ability to pay" is a much more interesting character motivation than "lol chaos", for sure

@Paddy8971

2 жыл бұрын

@@mojotheaverage I think the problem in your thinking is believing chaos makes him one dimensional

@maching256

2 жыл бұрын

For what i remember, the soul drinker at least at the beginning was an exemple of a chapter who got aware of the what the imperium trully is and so was considered renegade by the imperium because they rejected the 40k imperium and tried to be faithfull to what a 30k Emperor driven imperium would look like (dont get me wrong a 30k imperium leaded by the emperor is still awfull but well, i guess that by 40K standarts it's still better) I think GW retconned them in a mutated and corrupted by chaos chapter.

At first, I was like, "What are you saying about my favourite setting?" **Angry noise** But then I listened to your ideas, and there is definitely a core of truth and possibilities in it. My suggestion would be to stop focusing 99% of all attention and promotion material on the Spacemarines. And spread it out evenly among all the races. Comparing the life of an eldar civilian (which we have limited info on) with an oppressed human or human among the Tau. More stories about the lives and troubles of "regular" people (human, mutant, and xeno) in the 40k might be a way to also poke holes in the "Imperium is good". Like you said alternative and variable viewpoints are needed.

@luketfer

2 жыл бұрын

The sad thing is, Space Marines sell, so GW being one of THE most terribly greedy companies, focuses on where the money is. Notice how even when other races are getting their releases...there's still like 2 or 3 Space Marine sets coming out as well.

@SusCalvin

Жыл бұрын

When you play the tabletop RPG, the marine chapter deep lore is virtually useless. The players are chasing some git and she bolts in a truck. They want to know if they can get a techno-gothic taxi or not. So now we got to figure out what civilian transport looks like.

Current Necromunda lore mentions hive leadership meeting with Eldar and Squat ambassadors. There's Ork mercenaries. It's clear that there's plenty of "heretical" behavior happening within the Imperium of man. It's just not mentioned enough in the codexes and a large portion of the Black Library material. Bring back cross faction allies, so that we see things like Guardsman bolstered by Ork troops etc.

@SusCalvin

Жыл бұрын

Warhammer is a wargame, the "home front" often takes a backseat. It's not a game about all the things leading up to apocalyptic battles (or just a squad of marines sitting on a farm to guard it). WFRP grew in parallell with Warhammer Fantasy Battles, an RPG needs to look at things at a lower level.

From the Baneblade/Shadowsword books, I really quite like what happened with the planetary governor's viewpoint at the start of one of them. Receiving an Imperial delegation requiring more soldiers/resources, and the governor gives them a powerful speech about how they're totally bled dry and suffering and just can't keep doing it. The Imperial ambassador just refuses to listen, and that starts the route to war. Granted they did then fall to Chaos and blah, blah, blah, but I felt that viewpoint had worked really well to show how oppressive the Imperium is.

@RaptorShadow

2 жыл бұрын

This shows a problem with how it's currently done. Every single time someone rebels against the Imperium, they fall to Chaos. This continues to justify the Imperium's response to any dissidents. Instead of being quick to violence and overly paranoid, they're usually potrayed as being right, actually. Just once I want a greedy self-serving governor-turned-seperatist to be just that.

@jakethadley

2 жыл бұрын

@@RaptorShadow Oh for sure. I think the plot of "The Taros Campaign" was really good in this regard, showing how the T'au were able to use sneaky gifts and diplomacy to slowly turn a planet from the Imperium.

A 10th edition like you described here might actually get me back into the setting. These days I'm more into Battletech just because its significantly less fash while remaining gritty and dark.

Okay, so your proposition is make 40k more like Rogue Trader again, right? I'm on it. I think this video, more than any other, shows how much you are knowledgeable and how much you cara about the setting, congratulations, man! With that said, I've always been puzzled at the fact that we don't see a lot of non Imperium, non Chaos, non Mutant rebel factions in the game. It would be really cool if we had a sort of "Rebel Alliance" Faction, you don't even need to make a whole complete line of models for it, just make them use a lot of Imperium vehicles and weapons, almost like the Genestealer Cults. Also, I would love to see some Gue'vesa models (is it spelled right?). Heck I would even go one step ahead and make the Tau try to sort of reverse engineer geneseed and make their own, obviously inferior, Gu'vesa space marines (I don't know, maybe they just start collecting geneseed from dead marines, which would make the Imperium completely mad about them).

@latrodectusmactans7592

2 жыл бұрын

Yep, that's how to spell it. And yes, the lack of Gue'vesa on the tabletop is a crying shame.

@blindlobster

2 жыл бұрын

A reason why there are no anti-Imperium human factions is because it would use the same codex as the Astra Militarum except for removing Commissars and the Navy. That's the gaming reason at least. The background reason is that the Imperial Guard is deliberately raised and kept separate from the Imperial Navy so if a rebel army is created, it cannot leave its planet.

@pedrobastos8132

2 жыл бұрын

@@blindlobster I see, maybe they could some sort of extra regiment option in an Imperial Guard codex, like, you would have Armageddon, Cadians, Krieg, etc, and then the option to run your IG as rebels, at least something like that

@nielsstilson9834

2 жыл бұрын

Also, it's not grimdark... a "Rebel Alliance" would be good guys, as he says, "fighting the good fight". There is no good fight, and that's what makes 40k great.

@pedrobastos8132

2 жыл бұрын

@@nielsstilson9834 I mean, no one said that they should be good guys, I just find awkward that if you're a human you're either inside the Imperium or under Chaos with the GSC, without any sort of in-between factions represented in the game itself, even though we are well aware that there are human pirates and other stuff like that in the fringes of the Galaxy. So yeah, maybe a Rebel Alliance in 40k would be more like a bunch of just regular humans (no chaos, no crazy mutants) scoundrels, pirates, and smugglers, just wanting to their own evil stuff instead of the Imperium's evil stuff. Also, sometimes you can have too much of a good thing: too grim and too dark will end up sorta of justifying the whole existence of the Imperium, just like Ian said, and just like he sorta said as well, you can break it up a little with some more nuance what's currently presented. I would definitely say that there's some lack of self awareness in 40k, as far as marketing material and what's presented in the codices go.

“We must be the good guys, we eat corpse bars”. Also the Mitchell/Webb skull uniforms thing applies. This may also be a problem fed by the disproportionate weight in the model range given to imperial stuff. And the army equals species equals race thing, whilst by no means unique to this fantasy setting, does rather limit possibilities. Cf. Late era Pratchett, with its inter-species couples and profess towards an industrialism underpinned by the value of labour, not capital. Anyway, more tales of elder/Ork throuples farming as retirement projects. Heck, there’d be a fun story to be told of how the Tannith got on as peacetime settlers at the end of the Sabbat crusade, something beyond the usual ptsd everywhere. I can’t imagine the imperium’s version of the va is great at augmetic upkeep, for example. Also,worth noting - the commissars’ origins and habit of shooting anyone who turns around are Stalinist. Plus the Red Army’s doctrine of piling men at objectives regardless of losses, equipment or alternatives is reflected in quite a lot of the black library Imp guard stuff I’ve read. Autocrats in fascist drag with a theocratic underpinning might be more accurate.

@WK-47

2 жыл бұрын

Important point here and a reason we shouldn't launch right towards buzzwords like 'fascism' simply because we see something dehumanising we don't like. Many aspects of the Imperium are indeed functionally more Stalinist, and Nazism as the hallmark of fascism valued the individual.

@bobbler42

2 жыл бұрын

@@WK-47 to be clear, there are plenty of bits of the imperium that draw on fascist ideology too. Space Marines as Nietzscheian supermen, perhapß (my German nihilism is a bit rusty). More specifically a society-wide lionisation of military service and centrality of arms to the economy. Weirdly it doesn’t have the focus on traditional gender/family roles (female soldiers allowed, though they also were in starship troopers). Possibly as a legacy of its 80s origins, it‘s also a deeply heteronormative setting. It is somewhat depressing to think that in 30,000 odd years, one man and one woman will still be the normal childcare arrangement.

@bobbler42

2 жыл бұрын

I also wonder to what extent the decision to draw design cues from military hardware from the first half of c20 was a result of being able to greeble on existing kit moulds (rhino is a backwards ww1 mk ii, there’s the ork plane that‘s just a mig 15). Makes me wonder if the aesthetic and thus the bumph was shaped by porting in designs from elsewhere that imply ideologies.

@doomguy9049

2 жыл бұрын

@@bobbler42 space marines are more Teutonic warrior monks than Nietzschean ubermensch, but Nietzsche wasn't a fascist either tbh

@doomguy9049

2 жыл бұрын

@@bobbler42 also the countries who most lionize their militaries are p much all socialist with the exception of WW2's most notorious badman so I don't think it's really accurate to attribute that specifically to fascism. There are stories involving other, nonstandard mating or child rearing setups btw including some vat grown caste systems like in one of the Primarch novels: AFAIK it's not really seen as special or remarkable in universe but probably is about as rare as it is now because human reproductive instincts would likely not have changed much in 38k years if there were endless trillions of us on earth alone and endless trillions more across a million worlds: the non-standard setups simply cant match the fecundity and economical efficiency of two hetero normies bumping uglies the old fashioned way.

I like the idea of Semi-grimdark because farsight enclave are basically backed into a corner and there only say to survive is to defend there territory and relay on temporary alliances, and the grimdark part is that they are like the red-shirts from Star Trek.

I can see Imperium Nihilus splintering and having Dante have to deal with sheperding the new factions into a rough alliance to maintain a grip on the other side of the rift, that makes sense. I don't think they would really manage that well though if left to their own devices, maybe prior to 40k, in the time between the current setting and the Horus Heresy it could have worked but nowadays there's just too many threats. I think another promising choice is to have Guillimain continue his work of reforming the Imperium while also having the Imperium begin to soften some of it's positions simply out of dire need. Specifically with regard to xenos. There is basically an alliance between Guilliman and the Ynnari but not too much has come of it lately, showcasing this a bit more and having the relationship formalized such that the Imperium and those Eldar aligned with the the Ynnari reach some diplomatic agreements to not screw each other over and cooperate goes a long way towards moving past xenophobia and endless war. As does an agreement with the farsight enclaves. You'd still have the main Tau Empire and most of the Eldar as potential enemies but some permanent alliances would start to form out of necessity. The discovery of a world or collection of worlds occupied by a surviving remnant of the dark age of technology human civilization has also been posed by some where you see humanity as it used to be.

I really like the idea you present of the Great Rift getting worse and splitting off more of the Imperium's former territory. You don't reference it directly, but it's similar to the Age of Strife following the birth of Slaanesh, which adds to the credibility of it as a plot point. I've also been keen generally to see more done narratively with the Imperium Nihilus, since that's currently underexplored.

It's very good to see the many Warhammer KZreadrs that break the stigma we have as fans. Adeptus Ridiculous, Poorhammer, Mr bones, numbskullz, dawnstir, you all work to undo the damage scum like arch have made.

C'mon Codex: Renegades and Heretics, 10th Edition!

The thought that came to me while listening to your thought experiment, was that you were essentially calling for a return to Rouge Trader. And it seem, looking over the comments, many think that as well. It would be splendid if 40k retraced back to its roots of Rouge Trader to move forward as a game.

@evangelosvasiliades1204

2 жыл бұрын

Having *the* grim dark setting lose it's found niche seems like it would upset more people than it would please.

@navilluscire2567

2 жыл бұрын

@@evangelosvasiliades1204 Rouge trader wasn't exactly all sunshine and rainbows...it just didn't lean so much into grimderp and demanding everything end in a needlessly painful way. (still plenty of violence ofcourse) Also "silly" fun can and should be allowed to exist in 40k, *it's a HUGE galaxy for a reason,* you can still have your grimdark fantasies in one brooding corner of galaxy while places liken to *"Logan's world"* can exist in another corner. That's part of why I like the scale of 40k's setting, *literally anything you can imagine, no matter how silly can and does exist somewhere.* I never understand why people think just having say humans and orks coexisting on ONE planet that isn't an apocalyptic battlefield (atleast most of the time..) would somehow upend the WHOLE series, it just *comes of as gatekeeping and being drama queens.* Heck, we even had a world in the lore where humans and eldar lived on the same planet...and not trying to genocide each other (though weren't exactly all buddy buddy ofcourse) but didn't need to be grimdark to the max to be interesting, heck if anything it makes things more grim because out of like 99% of all human and eldar interactions, there's was atleast ONE, instance of it not eventually turning into a blood bath or a whole *"next we meet, there will be no mercy"* after begrudgingly working together kind of thing but an actual lasting coexistence. (before they were all murdered by the galaxy's most 'friendly' war criminal)

The annoying thing is that some of the other factions, notably the T'au, get the opposite treatment to the imperium: highlighting the bad they do while ignoring the comparatively strong justifications.

@silver4831

Жыл бұрын

I don't think you can justify the Etherials. They come across as very creepy and don't care what others T'au think or feel.

@navilluscire2567

Жыл бұрын

@@silver4831 And the Primarchs and the Emperor do? They all pretty much don't give a FUCK about humans as people nor care for their consent, they wouldn't hesitate to destroy or kill anyone who refused to bend the knee to them, we've seen this happen multiple times.

@silver4831

Жыл бұрын

@@navilluscire2567 Least they have some emotions. The books make the Etherials without emotion and some freaky hive mind. I highly recommend crisis of faith, it's a great example of how the T'au society may look nicer on the outside but isn't really.

@navilluscire2567

Жыл бұрын

@@silver4831 And the Imperium is somehow nicer on the inside once you get past the outside appearance of a bunch of hyper religious, skull obsessed, militaristic, human supremacist, (even though said empire is ruled by transhuman freakshows) genocidal maniacs? Oh the Primarchs have emotions? That's wonderful, tell me how well did that turn out for the trillions that died at their hands?

@navilluscire2567

Жыл бұрын

@@silver4831 And without emotions? Literally one of the favorite things for some of the writers to do to the ethereals is to make these sopposedly super intelligent, thoughtful beings act like arrogant, oblivious, petty humans because *"ha ha, T'au are so naive and dumb".* Even though they're sopposedly a ever advancing interstellar civilization that isn't filled with superstitious idiots and are basically always gathering information about the wider galaxy to the point they should basically know all about the other major players in the galaxy yet somehow the few instances they made mistakes (most of which happened centuries ago from the current most time point) is somehow to forever condemn them to the naive corner, nevermind the the stupid mistakes the other factions have made (and continue to make!) despite sopposedly being OOOHH so wise apparently.

Awesome idea. As others have mentioned the best portrayal of them being evil I’ve seen recently is Garden of Ghosts on hammer and bolter. I’m also wondering if they’re planning a new civil war in the imperium, which could achieve a similar effect if they make one side like you’ve suggested.

Now I really do look forward to the 10th edition and more fun converting "Imperial guard type" troops. And also, what is the candle of the day? Or are they all unlit this time?

I saw u irl the other day Ian at secret cinema but as a staff member I couldn't break the immersion to shake your hand and say thanks for the content! So I'll say it here! Love it all and I'm pretty indifferent about 40k lol keep it going and much love xx

@ArbitorIan

2 жыл бұрын

Aha! Where were you working/who were you playing? You totally could have got away with it on account of me working for them too (as a designer though, so I don't have to worry about breaking character).

@jimjimson9

2 жыл бұрын

@@ArbitorIan just a humble bar keep though in my head canon I'm a veteran of the peninsula wars who took a musket ball to the knee

Watching this and knowing the Squats are coming back is probably a good sign that there may be new human factions that will be separate from the Imperium. It's a good start I say, and we may get new alien factions too.

Ian, do you think that having essentially space-Bretonnians/Kislev/etc might help with this? Not straight ports but taking some influence?

Reminds me of a quote I read from a director a few years ago to the effect of "It's impossible to make an anti-war film focusing on the soldiers. When the audience sees people trying to do something hard they will eventually start rooting for them" which is the opposite effect that he was aiming for. Since Imperium humans are the POV characters for most of the fiction it's hard to make compelling fiction without encouraging the audience/reader/player to identify with the characters and indirectly their goals.

Idea for a faction: A "democratic" faction that also has conscription. The twist is that the party in power might try and stifle voters by sending them into unwinnable battles.

@FlameQwert

2 жыл бұрын

best part about this is that it's also suitably grimdark

@notthemoon

Жыл бұрын

I think you're describing the orks with more steps

@heckinmemes6430

Жыл бұрын

Tau?

@NoNoNah306

Жыл бұрын

@@heckinmemes6430 The Tau aren't democratic. They do the greatest good for the greatest number but they don't really consult them about it. The Tau would say they're so harmoniously in tune with the ideal of the greater good that they don't need to vote the same way you don't need to vote on whether or not to eat or drink, or how gravity works. Others would say they're just ruled by the Ethereals and the Ethereals don't want to be questioned. A democratic faction would be interesting and be something new, but it would be difficult to pull off. For one it's hard to have the kind of communication a modern democracy requires without breaking some of the limitations of the universe. Also one of the reasons there's no democracy in 40k is that it's a satire, and if you satirise a democracy or make it match the grimdark tone you could end up doing the exact opposite of making the setting less appealing to fascists. It's probably easier to do a corrupted republic than it is a true democracy in 40k, but I'd worry a faction claiming to be democratic but not being would just end up being very similar to the Tau.

@gokbay3057

Жыл бұрын

A Democracy with conscription isn't anything new (or outdated). Indeed, that's how democracy worked since the beginning. In Ancient Rome and Athens the definition of "Citizen" was to have certain rights, most especially the right to vote and it was the main duty of the Citizen to take up arms in defense of his nation/city. Modern Day Switzerland (basically one of the last places in the world that practices direct democracy), South Korea (had issues in the past, got better in more modern times), Turkey (authoritarian right now, but used to be more democratic a decade or two ago), Israel (which has many issues, but is internally quite democratic, at least within it's primary Jewish demographic) all have compulsory military service.

They could also focus on humans who willingly join other factions. Could have a reasonable chaos vassal empire outside the eye of terror, or release a Gu'Vesa lead Tau Auxileria codex, or release models to show off canonical human mercenaries who work for the Dark Eldar, a genestealer patriarch who doesn't call the hive fleet and builds a new home for his Brood (Arguably already Hivecult), etc Showing that humans have more alternatives to the Imperium shows the horrible grimdarkness that the Imperium is wholly needless and exists only due to its own weight.

Great video as always and love the thought process. Very creative ideas and the analysis at the start is really good. A+++

Amazing video, I think I might actually do this on a smaller scale (like a couple systems getting surrounded by the wrap for a while) even if it’s just for a small aeronautica army.

@GreenBlueWalkthrough

2 жыл бұрын

They already do that...

@vampyrehotdog1387

2 жыл бұрын

@@GreenBlueWalkthrough ooohhh where (I’m not a lore expert sorry)

The only flaw I could reasonably bring up is the fact the impact of NOT having access to the Astronomican was not addressed.

I really like this idea. It would also be neat if codexes from different factions gave different accounts of the same event. Could hammer home how the factions will twist the truth or lie to make themselves look good.

This is something I always wanted to see. Hell, it's practically stated outright in some of the books (as mentioned in the vid). This is what caught me about chapters like the space wolves - they are more often than not butting heads with the imperium and how it works and stick to their own sectors. (at least, pre the destruction of fenris) This is what I wanted more of - humans coexisting with xenos through tentative alliances; humans aware of the dangers of the warp and working against it in responsible ways. Hell, these are shown to be common place for some more radical commissars, why not have it be right there under the imperium's nose. Doesn't even have to be pleasant - a feudal world has a trade deal with the dark aeldari, exchanging thousands of slaves in exchange for designer drugs and incubus bodyguards. The potential. The potential!!

@navilluscire2567

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, more worlds that have dark but practical packs with xenos. Imagine a world's government being in league with some t'au sept, trading tech and them (the humans) gaining access to new markets through the t'au's other member or allied species, turning the human world into the Warhammer 40k equivalent of Nar Shada from star wars i.e. multiple species living on the same planet engaging in a sort of planetary bizarre where all sorts of crazy goods are traded. Ofcourse with the human governor taking a sizable cut of proceeds while the t'au handle most market security in exchange for using the planet as a new staging point for future campaigns, establishing permanent military bases. Actually imagine U.S. bases for the t'au's presence and role there like in Japan with the planet being like a mashup of Tokyo and Las Vegas (who doesn't love space casinos!), but in (partial) hiveworld form!

When thinking about the imperium and the question of its depiction as the given “protagonist” faction - can entire civilization or society in fiction be understood not as allegory but something along the lines of the classically tragic hero writ large, an entity that’s fun or compelling to follow in a narrative but would obviously be catastrophic to encounter in real life?

It’s very much in dialogue with the themes of power and control in the Dune series, which also has a complex interplay between “necessary evils” and the brutal limitations of feudal imperialism as a system which the people in the setting can never seem to shake.

Brian stableford wrote a book from the point of view of chaos cultists. It was excellent probably the best one I've read, it tackle the issue of the empire being evil really well. Your sympathy wasn't with the chaos cultists, it was with the poor villagers caught in the middle.

Love this idea, and I do have another idea, one that really would need a sort of narrative substrate to attach itself to but if I was in charge of writing the new chunks of lower I would have more of the primark's return and have them respond to The Cult of the emperor and the general status quo with a crusade against the imperium.

As has been said ever since Warhammer+ went live GW have done themselves a disservice by putting all the animation behind a paywall. One of my favourite episodes so far of Hammer and Bolter has been "In the Garden of Ghosts". It really turns up the Imperial bastardry to 11 in that show and was fantastic for it.

@mrmagpiepromotions

2 жыл бұрын

The first episode of the Exodite sort of did that too, when the imperial fleet arrives it's like some looming monstrous presence.

@Deadjim17

2 жыл бұрын

@@mrmagpiepromotions yeah. Along with the narration labelling the T'au as naive

@DickCheneyXX

2 жыл бұрын

@@Deadjim17 These filthy xenos should be grateful that the imperium is putting them out of their misery.

Thank you. I'm starting a Dark Heresy campaign. This has given me some nice ideas for Radicals and other such alternatives to dangle Infront of the group.

I wouldn't make this a "new" thing, which can be construed as a development post-plot advancement. I'd propose this as a new faction for a new edition, but that it would be emphasised that these guys have always been there - it's just that, as minor worlds and/or pirates and raiders, they haven't been referenced until now. If you have worlds that have never been part of the Imperium, where there is at least some co-operation between humans and Xenos*, and that haven't turned to Chaos, then the Imperium has never been necessary, and it returns to being a joke that "certain people" didn't get. If they are a direct result of the plot advancing, then you can argue that they were necessary prior to that point, but not after it. To emphasise this, I'd build the aesthetics off of Logan's World, and have it be an "update and expansion" on the pirate/mercenary army list in the Book of the Astronomicon. Alternatively, clarify that the suffering the Imperium causes is directly feeding and strengthening Chaos (making it a positive feedback loop), that the Astronomicon did indeed attract the Tyrannids, and that the reason all Xenos life seems hostile, is because they've slaughtered all of the reasonable ones. *and, no, not in a peace-love-and-harmony way. I'm talking more the Host of Mordor, less the Fellowship of the Ring.

@navilluscire2567

2 жыл бұрын

To be fair the Imperium did wipe out many, MANY civilizations of peaceful xenos or even humans during the Great Crusade, no wonder that any remaining xenos or even independent human civilizations that have heard or somehow know about this horrific event wouldn't be so inviting as they had been before. I wouldn't be suprised if there's hundreds if not thousands of civilizations out in the galaxy that have desperately tried to not attract the attention of the Imperium, seeing them as a very serious existential threat. (oh the irony!)

@arfived4

2 жыл бұрын

@@navilluscire2567 The model for the suggestions in my post is one of my own pet projects, which is "the ships that survived the slaughter of the Diasporex, after they've spent 10,000 years living like the fleet from Battlestar Galactica"

@navilluscire2567

Жыл бұрын

@@arfived4 That sounds awesome! Yeah, the tragic fate of the Diasporex is one of the rare instances where the Imperium isn't justified in the least and felt quite frankly surreal in how the SPACE marines talking about how they couldn't even fathom how or why humans and aliens could live together peacefully, really showing the depths of their conditioning and the human supremacist rhetoric they were feed all their lives. We NEED more media where the Imperium are the antagonists, where the irrational thinking and hate fueled actions are presented bare for what they are.

I should have said this earlier, but the Cubicle 7 40k RPG setting is the Gilead system, and it's exactly what you've described, an Imperial system, cut off by the Cicatrix Maledictum, where in order to survive, people are staring to reconsider old absolutes

You just earned yourself a subscriber, my good man! I've toyed around with the idea of a small, independent human faction of my own for quite some time now. I imagine a fringe world that was cut off from the Imperium by a warp storm during the Horus Heresy, forcing the inhabitants to develop a more pragmatic approach in order to survive. Not only did they loosen restrictions on scientific and technological research, resulting in building their own tech and even making some small scale innovations, but their views also became more tolerant. They have slowly but surely started coming into contact with the outside galaxy again as the storm gradually subsides, resulting in alliances of necessity with mercenaries, Rogue Traders and even some xenos. For example, they have an uneasy alliance with a contingent of Blood Axes, the agreement being that the Ork raiders help deal with a persistent feral Ork infestation (the result of a large WAAAGH! rampaging through the sector during the Great Crusade) while leaving the 'humies alone. In exchange the Blood Axes get to keep all battlefield spoils and are given Ogryn volunteers, who it turns out integrate into Ork society very well. Knowing that it's only a matter of time before an inevitable confrontation with the Imperium, the people are weighing their options. Reintegration with the Imperium is out of the question at this point, as it's seen as a fate worse than death. Will they go out in a blaze of glory like so many other rebellious worlds, or will they manage to relocate to another planet or become shipfaring nomads traveling the stars of a hostile galaxy?

“None of us stands outside humanities black collective shadow” -Carl Jung You don’t get it either. I don’t get it. No one does. I’m ganna go snort some warp dust now. Death to the false emperor

I think part of the problem is GW has taken the setting more and more seriously. Rogue Trader was an obvious grab bag of popular sci-fi ideas and very clearly didn't take itself serious. The Imperium was obviously satire. I understand as 40K became more its own unique thing that faded and needed to a bit but I feel the whole thing takes itself way too seriously (except maybe orks). Plus lots people get exposed to the setting by games which usually focus on the battlefield and fighting and don't give any indication what those factions you are playing are really like.

@idontwanttopickone

2 жыл бұрын

We need more 80's satire in 40k.

@BulkBrogan.

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly this if the setting stayed as obvious parody you'd have to be impossibly daft to agree with the imperium

@101Mant

2 жыл бұрын

@@BulkBrogan. clearly we need an official mini release for Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau. If anything says don't take this stuff too seriously...

This is exactly the sort of thing I’d want to do with any games of Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader. It can be a bit easy with the institutional weight of the Imperium behind the PCs.

This is a genius idea, I’ve thought about this problem too, but never thought of a solution as good as this one. Great!

This is why I wish they'd stop ignoring things like the Nova Terra Interegium. It's got so much potential.

Imho, they could also just play up the feudal aspects of the Imperium. Generally they could deal far more with indivudual worlds and organisations doing their own thing, and even fiting in petty equivalent to feuds amongst each other. Any sort of partaking in the larger affairs and coordination between components only gets done when the instititutions of holy terra come knocking themselves, and even then they could have far more limited authority per imperial law. Think more Dune or the Empire in WHFB (or rather the holy roman empire...), where the individual bodies making up the Imperium act like completely independent nations 90% of the time and Space Marine chapters more or less doing whatever they want. All of that is already there, it just needs to be played up more.

@gokbay3057

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, playing up the feudal confederation aspect of the Imperium is a far better idea to distance the perception of the Imperium from Fascism.

So ten editions after Laserburn became Rogue Trader the setting moves from Base Laserburn/Imperial Commander to Advanced Laserburn & Aliens?

One thing to remember for such a time jump forwards is that Guilliman originally created the Ultramar sector, which was a well run comparative utopia. You could actually have sectors taking on board his learnings in such a way that new ultramar like territories spring up- great places to live, yet still part of the Imperium. Based on how religions tend to deviate from their starting points, you could actually have groups of Ultramarines denouncing their own Primarch as not following the true imperial creed- maintaining that back ground element of reasons where supposed allies could come to blows with each other. Throw in the return of Russ or The Lion, who have different opinions on what the Imperium should be working towards, and you can get a seriously diverse setting within the human (and trans human) populace. Oh and of course, bring back the Squats! It would be great to see them as a 'mostly good guys' faction, who have spent centuries hiding from a repressive Imperium that wanted to exterminate them, but have now returned out of compassion for sentient life and their own interests in resisting the galaxy's greatest menaces and threats it has seen in millennia.

I really like this! I'm a fan of every faction's fluff being presented as propaganda for their side - making it willfully inconsistent. People (especially kids!) can still have their heroic marines fighting mindless bugs or spikey dudes, while any folks who care to look a little deeper can have that subverted. Tau are a step in that direction - a more subtle kind of fascism, at least - and an option that says that it's possible for species to work together peacefully. That Blackstone Fortress game too. The galaxy is a big place, so it should feel diverse.

@silver4831

2 жыл бұрын

@@clinch4402 Let me guess you just don't know the Tau lore? They are very much grimdark.

@silver4831

2 жыл бұрын

@@clinch4402 So has every part of 40k?

@silver4831

2 жыл бұрын

@@clinch4402 Typical braindead imperial fanboy.

@navilluscire2567

2 жыл бұрын

@@clinch4402 Gundam crowd? **looks over to Imperial knights, Imperial titans and eldar titans**

@navilluscire2567

2 жыл бұрын

@@clinch4402 Also cynical? The Imperium is practically brimming with self-righteous!

I intensely love these frontier regions, but there would be a good balance to be careful with, because something would be lost if what you propose is done too much. The despair maybe. The artistic charm is not only that the Imperium is bad, it's also that it is nearly inescapable. Free souls and pirates live in uncharted territories but many bigger factions able to negate the imperium on the long run would lessen the oppressive, suffocating threat of Terra.

I’ve been wanting a good non-chaos renegade/rebel guard option for so long

I think this is a well thought our idea in terms of universe building, but broadening the range might also dilute whatever it is that makes 40k such a potent point of interest. That said, i totally agree with your views on this. It could be just about retconning back towards Rogue Trader?

Still of the opinion that Imperium Secundus should be the change that Guiliman will enact to cut out the chaff and beaurecracy of the Imperium Proper. Shit will still be horrible because of shortages and the like, but it will be focused on a goal and with a plan for a somewhat essential peace with the Eldar and Tau.

Interesting concept. Last time I was into Games Workshop stuff was in the mid/late 2000's, where WH40K was in its 3rd edition with most of the basic fluff written from the Imperium's viewpoint of itself as a necessary evil but most players I encountered viewed the Eldar as the closest thing the setting had to "good guys". For me it seems like the Eldar are meant to be written as metaphors for real-life Celtic peoples - notice the Craftworlds being named after Druidic festivals like Beltane (Biel-Tann) and Samhain (Saim-Hann) - as far as WH40K maps to real life politics. I don't know what this says about more than my own anecdotal experiences?

@Lynch2507

2 жыл бұрын

I feel like the inquisition, the eclisiarchy and the other various organisations involved in running the imperium say enough tbh

@1norwood1

2 жыл бұрын

I remember in 2nd edition the Eldar were portrayed as being more aloof and distant with inscrutable motives which the humans didn't really comprehend, they leaned pretty heavily on Fantasy elfs in space motif. There was story elements in the old army book "Codex Imperialis" which came with Second Ed box which were written from PoV of an inquisitor that was in the Black Libray it was pretty interesting stuff. 3rd edition things changed a bit they introduced Dark Eldar. The 2nd Ed Eldar Codex had lists for Exodite Eldar but Dark Eldar were a completely 3rd ed invention. It was around this time the lore changed to be much more grim dark in general They also got rid of some of the more fun units like Harlequins in 3rd ed which were some of my favourite Eldar models and lore. I think they eventually bought them back but I felt like they were really missed at the time.

@Tsotha

2 жыл бұрын

@@1norwood1 yeah 3rd edition 40K was a lot more selfconsciously serious than the first two editions so many of the weirder elements had to go, similar relationship 6th edition WFB had to the previous ones

@wiggawithattitude

Жыл бұрын

Ah yes, the eldar, a race who literally birthed a demon god with their degeneracy. They're the 'good guys'. I guess that depends on your perspective...

I think the only problem with your fix is that would any small empire stand any chance against the cataclysmic forces of destruction unless they were fairly hidden away. Feels like chaos would single them out one by one with ease.

@navilluscire2567

Жыл бұрын

Well for starters... The galaxy is a ridiculously HUGE place, even with the largest Chaos warband ever they'd only hilariously be able to attack not even a fraction of a fraction of ALL human worlds, not just the ones apart of the Imperium but ALL of them. So humanity is no where near in danger of going extinct, there's just WAAAAAY too many humans for that to ever be a serious problem. As for the tyranids trying to eat the galaxy thing. Here is an idea, make the necrons relevant again i.e. have a bunch of them start busting out their SUPER ridiculous, overpowered weapons and tech, about time they pull of the kiddie gloves, atleast with the SPACE death bugs when they've begun arriving in 'real' force.

I like the idea of stories that focus on regular humans (IG, PDF, gangers whatever) fighting a squad of Astartes because to them they can't distinguish Imperial marines v Chaos Marines all they see is hyperviolence and scary giants with guns.

I'd say one starts this with the reintroduction of the Squats, followed by a massive expansion to the Renegades and Heretics. I'd like rules to field human pirates, like Corsairs or Freebootas. While we're at it, release that Mercenaries codex GW has been teasing for almost 20 years.

Eh I think that the imperium being the only faction for man yet being so flawed is the only thing that makes it not the worst or close to the worst, then it would become craftworld elder, tau as just being good and the imperium just being a fleeting evil kinda ruins the grimdarkness

@aydenevans417

Жыл бұрын

When I think of freedom fighters, hope and freedom I think star wars, not 40k

I'd like to see a society made up of the survivors of advanced human and Xenos species that found a Dyson Shpere in the ghoul stars (or somewhere else the Imperium doesn't tend to go) and build a powerful defensive coalition fleet and army, they leave only to secure resources via mining or trade. Imagine the exotic new Xeno and human units you could add to the setting or reintroduce old ones only mentioned in a line of dialogue

I think they're doing a good job of working past this by bringing back the Primarchs and juxtaposing then against the current state of the imperium.

Having "multiple human Imperiums" in alliance would be a good way to reintroduce other loyalist Primarchs. E.g. Russ or the Lion as leaders of their own portions of the galaxy.

@SusCalvin

Жыл бұрын

It was a wargame, the home front always took a back seat. I think you can play up the independence of the subsectors and worlds and make them as different as you like.

I think it doesn't even need to be super hard, just give us options for Imperial Guard renegades or non imperial imperial guards and make them be able Ally with any other faction, no new models need to even be made

Couldn't agree more. To me, Guilliman is the biggest problem. Picture an Imperium with the High Lords at its head, anonymous beaucrats and noblemen of which we know nothing, and that's the point, the horror is that the Imperium runs on intertia. The cogs all turn, the broken pieces are replaced not by an engineer but by other pieces. We are doing this to ourselves. The fact that we never knew the name of the HL was genius to me. Life is hell, but who's to blame? Now there is someone to blame. Roboute Guilliman. He is indisputably in charge and he has mostly cast aside the HL and replaced them. He has much control. Yet, life is still hell. Why the heck do people not rebel against Guilliman now? Genestealer cults, sure, but... Come on, not all rebels must be secret Tzeentch worshippers or Tyranid cosplayers. Sure, yes, there's faith and other social glue in place, but come on, if there ever was a place for new human factions or a straight on civil war in the Imperium it was now!

well stated and I agree. Partly because I want more variety in human factions. What always attracted me to the setting was its room for creativity - there's absolutely space on a million planets for human societies that are tangential to the Imperium at best, and forgotten in the imperium's endless sclerotic bureaucracy. This doesn't require any retcons of any kind, just additions, and I'm all for it

This would be amazing. I play necromunda and love exploiting the gaps in the lore. I run Van Saar and I love their 'heretical' (in the eyes of the imperium) approach to technology. I run them as infected by a rogue A.I that has emerged from their secret STC that is assimilating data from the wider galaxy constantly improving and replicating. Definitely not 'good' but still a different approach to the usual 'suffer not the witch" etc. Id love to see them adopt your suggestion.

@michaeljack4788

2 жыл бұрын

Sick idea. Van Saar rule.

Great video I love the ways you find to keep the community thinking about a bigger human picture. That said GW has never had the key to individual creative experiences and has often enough reacted to its community, that one way to make this change it to simply play as if it is true. Leave the individuals who think Fascism is an ideal, missing the fact that their push for a point of view they can call their own may get them trampled under foot, to play in their play groups. While the rest of us play out the story we want to with free thinking friends who allow us to play renegade marine groups or mixed lists of Tau and Imp Guards until GW realise that with that freedom there is no limit to collecting miniatures and an endless possibilities for new rule books.

@Deimos0

2 жыл бұрын

I'm not sure about that though, you probably know the saying, that restrictions breed creativity and just letting everything go makes no sense from the global perspective - neither lore, nor business. GW plays a lot on the players'/fans' feelings for specific factions - that's why you have them trickling down the releases. From the lore perspective - Imperium (apart from the very beginning of 40k I guess) was about keeping humanity together by the Emperor's vision and rule. Same thing for other "issues" like femal SM - if everything is allowed and homogeneous, what is the reason for SoB existence? And why there aren't any BoB (Brothers of Battle)? Sure, GW could and should endorse some of the less traditional approaches into their lore (like maybe a tiny bit more focus on humans working with Tau, Blackshields, etc.), but unless they just deus ex machina a new region of galaxy for them, it is hard to imagine not seeing the Imperium cracking down on any rebel faction.

Very interesting perspective. One thing I'd like to see would be some stories from chaos and xenos points of view (maybe from the point of view of citizens. I note the Siege of Vraks is popular right now. Maybe the story of an impoverished Vraksian who slaved since he was a child in the Departmento Munitorum's labour corps, who in order to give his family a better life enlisted in the Vraksian traitor militia after Cardinal Xaphan's coup? I'd like that story! Or maybe the story of a Gue'vesa unit fighting against their fellow humans for the Tau Empire.

Very well done. You address several things I've been pondering on and off for years now. On the one hand, what I really like about the 40k setting is the fact that it's so faceted, allowing space for both the dystopian, silly Rogue Trader-era punk horror and social criticism as well as its science-fantasy elements allowing for individual heroism and excessive world-building more akin to Star Wars. That way, I have the freedom to focus on individual aspects of it depending on what I like at the moment, bathing for a short time in the horror, the ugly and the bloody, emerging from them like exiting a rollercoaster. The downside is, well, you said it, it attracts actual bad people with actual misanthropic views, completely misinterpreting what it's all about originally. My current fear is that this trend of blunting the satire may continue out of sheer necessity to provide less purchase for the real fascist types. But then again, nobody can tell me what to do within my own pocket of 40k, and if I want to cling to those satirical, silly RT flavours, no change of the universe can stop me. Edit: I really like your version of a sort of second Age of Strife!

I mean, this sounds perfect to be honest.... It sounds so plausible that even as of the moment we could say, to some extend, it is happening already. I mean, in the way to justify actually having good Space marines... It sounds completely convincing and easy to deliver.... damn... nice work!

I think this is a great solution and I've always thought it was implied that there already was this sort of thing going in the setting. Perhaps I was wrong though and creating this juxtaposition more obvious would be a great thing for the imperium. For example, in my head cannon the Alpha legion run an alternative interstellar colony in the eastern fringe as a kind of alternate moral and social organisation.

Off topic, but can I just say I love your intro theme? Is there a source?

@ArbitorIan

2 жыл бұрын

It's in the description!

@r.alexandercorbitt1554

2 жыл бұрын

@@ArbitorIan thx

I know 40k is big business these days but I'm fascinated by old school lore. There's a lot of "history of 40k" but it's actually really hard to piece together the background history of 40k.

@SusCalvin

Жыл бұрын

I'm mostly interested in the tabletop RPG side, but if you stretch far back enough the distinction between them is a lot muddier. I'm interested in the practicalities like how a game works. What did the ref do during a Rogue Trader game? How did you use a chaos champion with the silly walk mutation? Why are great demons so frickin' powerful?

Smells like heresy in here...

Its upsetting how cool an idea you describe is because it feels like there is almost 0 chance this is what we end up seeing in the main stream game. Nonetheless the video was a great watch and i would love to see new divergant human factions in 40k.

I'd like to see more functioning Chaos worlds. Which seems like a contradiction is terms, but Chaos is kind of poorly named anyway.

@navilluscire2567

Жыл бұрын

The *Bloodpact* Chaos warband and civilization are arguably THE MOST interesting known Chaos aligned group in the setting!

This is a bloody fantastic idea! It would advance the story and give people more faction variety. I'm on board. 🙂

@SusCalvin

Жыл бұрын

I think players already do that. I have a soft spot for all the janky non-standard regiments out there. You expect to fight another basic cadian-patterend army and in rolls a company of Lawrence of Arabia riding APCs or a bunch of knife-fighters with combat drugs and salvage rights.

it reminds me the planet's developpement table from 40k third edition rule book. You could clearly see that some planets have survived with post industrial civilizations. It could lead to so many stories that depicts life in 40k instead of constant wars againt arch evils. Always talking about war makes it bearable and that's why people tend to see the Imperium as a necessary evil... because in the far future... there's no alternative. (and not even talking about prehistoric planets where you could see Monsterhunter style tales especially with Exodites ones).

I totally agree, I just fear concentrating on marines cos marines and marines with marine sauce makes more money than charm, subtlety and nuance.

What I cannot crush with words, I will crush with the tanks of the Imperial Guard.

This is a great approach! I also miss the satire.

This both brings back the rogue trader feel that people like me really want, let's eveyone have their cake and eat it, and even allows GW space to bring out even more new models and faction stuff making yet more money from people... Shame it'd need them to be self aware and care about the game.

Great video Ian! I really like your idea of fracturing the Imperium to allow for contrast and alternatives to the monolithic entity we’ve been living with. When has humanity ever been so unified? And I would love for a reason to play space marines that doesn’t make me feel like I’m playing the bad guys.

Question for you? What is your opinion on the imperium in 30k? Was the imperium good or bad before the Horus? I don’t know much about 30k government so I’m curious what your thoughts are. Others feel free to add opinions in the reply

@Klamev

2 жыл бұрын

The major project of the Imperium of in 30k was the Great Crusade which is a euphemism for genociding every planet that is not 100 exclusivly human AND even if the world is 100% human you still have a 50/50 chance of genociding the planet anyway so...

Great take! I dig the idea of a focus shift

I always liked the idea that each codex served as propaganda from their point of view. Like if you read a Space Marine codex, then the Emperor is this noble hero of the past and we should aspire to be worthy of him. But then if you read a Chaos Marine codex, the Emperor is a corpse and a false idol who never really cared for humanity, but the Chaos Gods are promising you the galaxy and immortality. It makes it so you essentially get a bunch of factions going "they're all bad but I'm good", rather than acting like, as you say, the Imperium are a necessary evil from every point of view. It doesn't help they've been cleaning up the art style and writing for years to be less openly ridiculous and satirical. It kind of lost that sense of humor in the pursuit of having a heroic face to a setting that was never intended to have one.

The funny part is 40k's imperium might be a correct depiction of how a pan-galatic uni-species empire would work realistically *under the condition that FTL travel is unreliable and AI is strictly outlawed* For a civilization spamming through the entire galaxy, one colony might have such a huge cultural and maybe even biological difference comparing to a colony to the other end of galaxy that if a coherent government could hold those planets together it must be extremely oppressive, because we know throughout real history, an oppressive empire exists when a government tries to control larger territory than its technological limit But again, all just be set upon the condition that *1) AI is strictly outlawed so every work must be completed by human hard labor and 2) FTL is so unreliable that a planet will be isolated for centuries without being noticed and maybe 3) gods could physically manifest if enough people believe them*

@Sorain1

2 жыл бұрын

That's basically the reason the Imperium is a mess and mirrors the end of the roman empire in terms of 'this political body is trying to hold onto *_far_* too much land for it's communications and transportation ability.' I for one actually like that, because frankly the reality is even if Chaos wasn't a thing, trying to manage an empire on that scale with so many desperate cultures and such horrible communications and transport ability? That's insanity. That is literally impossible no matter how loose or tight the reigns are. It's the hubris of the GEoM to even attempt it. Even if the Webway project had worked, that would only alleviate the problem somewhat, not fix it. It's Alexander the Great's 'keep conquering until I run out of land' foolishness... which reflects human nature and history.

The one thing I’ve always wondered about 40k lore is why is that that the traitor primarchs are the only ones that question of the crusade is even necessary

I think there are a number of ways: i think one way is to emphasize that the players are supposed to think of themselves as the Ruinous Powers, pitting all these shitty factions against each other for our own twisted amusement. When you get down to it, each of the four chaos gods is an archetype of a kind of table top player, even Slaanesh. You are to read each book not with sympathy, but with cackling glee waiting for the other shoe to drop. "Just as planned~" Its an opportunity to root against all of the galaxy's feeble attempts to thwart you and your "great game"