If you enjoyed the music in this video, be sure to check out the artist Sam Kužel's website, where you can listen to and buy his newest EP: www.samkuzel.com/

@Zain94336

3 жыл бұрын

Stop white washing khan. And Stop casting a mexican dude as khan is well. Khan is Desi

@jamespitoola1954

3 жыл бұрын

@@Zain94336 you’re going to go crazy when you find out scotty wasnt scottish.

@user-nf9xc7ww7m

2 жыл бұрын

Technically, khan's control over millions and power ("I was a prince") could just mean he was a billionaire that controlled multiple corporations through a holding company. Remember that the colloquial term for that is a business empire. And how many employees does he have? Loyalty is required or person is fired. If his business bought out all the other businesses in an area, and if the govts are weak and poor, he has essentially signed their death sentence. I see Khan as the more crooked version of Offenhouse (the CEO frozen in the TNG episode Neutral Zone). I wonder if that's why they introduced him. Another CEO in voyager showed up too when they time travelled. Perhaps Roddenberry and/or his successors were showing that capitalism was becoming more corrupt and supplanting nation-states.

@user-nf9xc7ww7m

2 жыл бұрын

@@jamespitoola1954 Or that Chekhov was american. Guess having a soviet actor was not so easy back in the 60s 😋

@user-nf9xc7ww7m

2 жыл бұрын

@@Zain94336 Going by the last name, maybe he'd be a Sikh (which can be of any race, fyi). Going by his first name, he'd be a Mongolian warlord. Going by his middle name, he'd demand lunch at midday sharp 😋

1996 was a wild year. I got my drivers license that year at 16. Life was tough but we still managed to retake Earth and chase Khan off the planet. Never forget! #eugenicsvet96

@williamhaynes4800

2 жыл бұрын

You forgot that man's civilization was cast in ruin in 1994 by a runaway planet hurtling between Earth and the moon causing cosmic destruction; as told by the narrator in Thundarr the Barbarian.

@Jim-Mc

Жыл бұрын

I clearly remember seeing Independence Day in the theater, right before I shipped out to fight the augmented hordes.

@weightlifting_socialist

10 ай бұрын

Where were you the day the S.S. Botany Bay flew to the sky? We all remember where we were and how we felt. #BotanyBay1996celebrationday

@rockhaze

5 ай бұрын

I saw Spock and Kirk in San Francisco in the late 80s. I knew about the warp engine before it was invented.

@raoularmagnac2037

2 ай бұрын

​@@rockhazeDid Chekov ask you where the nuclear "wessels" are? 😂

Star Trek writers: Hey, lets set this event 30 years into the future. After all, what show will be remembered that long?" Fans 25 years AFTER that chosen time setting: "Hey, the plots really don't mesh well with reality of the 1990s. Hhmmmm, reality must be wrong."

@user-nf9xc7ww7m

2 жыл бұрын

Star trek is the future in the Matrix 😋

@JB-1138

2 жыл бұрын

Khan should have taken place in the 2190s instead of 1990s.

@DerScheisse

2 жыл бұрын

*_KHAAAAAAAAN_*

@michaelpettersson4919

2 жыл бұрын

Sometimes they are just begging for it though. The British series Space 1999 was set very optimistically close to when it was produced.

@cassiebrighter3229

5 ай бұрын

Star Trek is set 400 years in the future.

I don't like when they try too hard to incorporate real-life events into Trek's 90's and 21st century. I like that Star Trek's history is different from ours and wish they would have embraced the eugenics wars more rather than shy away from them.

@KironVB

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, it's clear that Star Trek's history has split by at least the 1960s. Last time I looked, there wasn't a nuclear standoff with space based nuclear missile platforms. Also the USSR in Star Trek doesn't seem to fall as well, as it's referenced in TNG and TOS.

@ubxs113

3 жыл бұрын

This.

@roryscott2941

3 жыл бұрын

Yes! That drives me crazy, it's like they don't trust us to know it's earth

@ericpowell4350

2 жыл бұрын

They shied away from it because from the 1970s through the early 2000s, the biotech industry was more prominent in the public consciousness. Look up the recently completed Human Genome Project.

@CarlosRodriguez-bd7fp

2 жыл бұрын

@@KironVB Altered timelines is retconning. The TOS 1960's future is our preset timeline.

In universe, the discrepancies within the timeline is thanks to the Temporal Cold War, with some events being more "fluid" than others.

@richardlahan7068

3 жыл бұрын

That would really be the only way to "explain" the problematic timing of the "in universe" concept of WWIII and the Eugenics Wars and real world history.

@capnsteele3365

3 жыл бұрын

@@richardlahan7068 like the late 90s computer age

@leftygurl

2 жыл бұрын

that makes a lot of sense, actually, considering how much tampering went on we could be seeing slightly different timelines every time the eugenics wars are brought up

@dswynne

2 жыл бұрын

@@leftygurl Well, I just wanted to offer an "in-story" reason for the disconnect between series. In reality, we all know that Gene Roddenberry didn't have a "lock" on continuity, when it came to world building, most famous of which are the changes in the appearance of the Klingons (from TOS to TMP). That right there is on him.

@edwardrhoads7283

2 жыл бұрын

@@richardlahan7068 Nope there is one other, our universe is not the Star Trek Universe. We are some parallel universe like the Terrans.

Would love to see a movie with the Eugenics War. Could be fascinating.

@kellyduggan2326

Жыл бұрын

that would be cool to see, and see how Khan gained his power, and how it fell

@thorin1045

11 ай бұрын

could be good, if they manage to avoid to push present day politics, and go for an actual interesting story exploring the gray on gray morality of this topic.

A single war having many names is not unusual. WWI was called "The War to End All Wars" or "The Great War," just for instance.

@kaitlyn__L

3 жыл бұрын

I wanted to comment about it originally being the Great War, but decided to see if someone else had brought it up :)

@waltciii3

2 жыл бұрын

They didn't know the sequel would be so popular.

@user-nf9xc7ww7m

2 жыл бұрын

World war 3 was the "war to end all wars times infinity, no take-backsies." 😋

@lorraineliggera4229

2 жыл бұрын

“The Great War” was WW I.

@sagefoole

2 жыл бұрын

@@lorraineliggera4229 That's what I said...

SeaQuest had an augment race known as DAGERS that try to create a similar nuclear situation Also high five if anybody remembers SeaQuest at all

@jupamoers

3 жыл бұрын

I remember that^^

@wwclay86

3 жыл бұрын

I do. An interesting show with an interesting premise

@davidnaas8366

3 жыл бұрын

They needed a bigger boat.

@wwclay86

3 жыл бұрын

@@davidnaas8366 that damn thing was huge... Like a quarter mile long or something stupid like that and fusion powered.

@tomf3150

3 жыл бұрын

In seaquest dsv the augment probleme is solved when a pregnant augmented woman gives birth to a human child.

Spock's "Superior ability breeds superior ambition" is not some statement of medical or physiological function. It's a recognition of human nature: the more you can do, the more you're likely to want to do--at least, want enough to let it be an ambition. People always overplay that.

@ChildovGhad

2 жыл бұрын

I don't think it's just human nature. A cat that can get on top of the fridge is far more likely to do so than one that can barely manage to get onto the counter top.

@TommygunNG

2 жыл бұрын

@@ChildovGhad You're actually agreeing with me.

@ChildovGhad

2 жыл бұрын

@@TommygunNG Why is that so strange?

@TommygunNG

2 жыл бұрын

@@ChildovGhad You were questioning my comment about human nature.

@ChildovGhad

2 жыл бұрын

@@TommygunNG You misunderstand. I'm agreeing that "more you can do, the more you're likely to want to do", and simply pointing out that this applies beyond just our species, which "human nature" implies. It could even be applied to Vulcans, or half Vulcans, not just the cat in my example. Perhaps our species is getting too conditioned to expect adversarial stances by default on social media. I think the internet has ruined us.

I think the big problem with the Eugenics Wars is that the time period was so tightly defined in Star Trek that it didn't leave writers a lot of wiggle room in dealing with them. I think a lot of confusion resulted from writers not looking at what had already been covered in previous series and possibly confusing (in universe) historical events.

@bostonrailfan2427

2 жыл бұрын

it’s easier to look at it as a covert war with the powerhouses finally removed without the public noticing as it didn’t directly affect their everyday life…the events mentioned and something like the drug wars in South America or the Southeast Asia mass murders added in could easily be seen as their way of manipulating things without being overt

On Earth, two hundred years ago, I was a prince... with power over millions.

@kaitlyn__L

3 жыл бұрын

Suggesting it was set in the 2190s and not the 2260s!

@rowdydog

3 жыл бұрын

some men dare take, what they want...

@mountaingalhomemaker4179

3 жыл бұрын

@@kaitlyn__L keep in mind the year which the original series was set was never established during the series it wasn't until the 1st movie that the year was mentioned

@kaitlyn__L

3 жыл бұрын

@@mountaingalhomemaker4179 yep (edit: actually i’m p sure it was the second movie, and that only said 23rd c., not a specific year)

@mountaingalhomemaker4179

3 жыл бұрын

@@kaitlyn__L but in the series it was never mentioned the year or even century just some time in the future and you have to remember in the 1960s the 1990s were some time in the future

The Eugenics war was a global revolt against tyrannic augmented humans. They should make a movie about it, Khans's rise to power , his golden age, the infighting between the Augments and then their fall.

the temporal cold war really changed the timelines. Like really, in the original series, there was no computer age in the 90s to them

@masterpython

2 жыл бұрын

@Suebian Our timeline was contaminated by TOS. several generations of Scientists and Engineers grew up and tried to emulate Star Trek

My thought on the inconsistencies is that what we have seen on screen is a historical representation of the past, but every time someone time travels, the past has been slightly changed. Basically what I mean is during the episode Space Seed, Khan and the Eugenic Wars happened as they said. But as more and more people time traveled, events slowly changed. When Voyager went to 1996, computers were vastly more advanced than in TOS because of the interference. This explains why the computers were more advanced in Enterprise and then especially better in Discovery than TOS. When Sisko traveled back to TOS with the Defiant, they did their best not to changed history, but if you watch the show, they did. Remember when Kirk chewed out the men for getting into the fight with the Klingons, Bashir and O'Brian were there. That means the two men that were there originally weren't. Their history was changed. Who knows what the ripple effect of that could be.

@peterfmodel

3 жыл бұрын

I totally agree with this theory, it can explain so much.

@peterfmodel

3 жыл бұрын

@Philip L Tite So true, we need to stop time travel - its too confusing. #StopTimeTravelNOW

@kaitlyn__L

3 жыл бұрын

I’ve often thought “clearly it was an alternate Tribbles timeline, O’Brien is there!” too. Also someone else from the old footage had their department colour changed in the DS9 episode. When the man from Temporal Investigations says “we could be in an alternate timeline right now”, he was bang on the money. Not to mention DS9 has also had that other timeline with the poet who was temporarily the Emissary. The concept of a single prime timeline is itself just nonsense even by the events we see in episodes, and some of them are central to the plot and not just interesting things to notice from the edit booth! We’ve seen them alter history or bring things back from the past in order to change the future so many times. We can easily just regard the timeline as updating with the writers, because there’s so much seen (and unseen) interference going on. I don’t need to catalogue it like “Enterprise is like this specifically because of First Contact” because they’ve also interfered with the 80s, 90s, 00s, and 20s. Blaming any one cause is only speculative.

@peterfmodel

3 жыл бұрын

@@kaitlyn__L Very true. The timelines often change when the writers change and there is a lack of an overarching control. In TOS Gene changed "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" because he felt it did not fit with his vision. I must admit gene was probably correct as the result was brilliant. Once that single point of control is gone, the stories tend to go off in all sorts of tangents. As long as they remain reasonably consistent with the vision, and are good, the fans don’t care. But even within that justification fans always try and identify a plausible cause. Plausibility is a critical fact in any story or character arc, so if we can ensure plausibility the story will be more likely accepted and end up in the list of good episodes. Thus we are back to time travel and time-lines.

@tsalVlog

2 жыл бұрын

@@peterfmodel Just coming back to say #StopTImeTravelBackThen would have been a better attempt. We'll get it eventually. whenever.

I prefer the idea conveyed in the "Rise and Fall of Khan" novels that the Eugenics Wars were a kinda secret conspiracy of conflicts through the mid-90s not revealed to the greater general public until decades later.

@OrangeRiver

3 жыл бұрын

Certainly a possibility, if not a likelihood. There are definitely secret conflicts that have been declassified to the public IRL.

@kanaric

2 жыл бұрын

It's better to think of star trek as an alternate reality all together and let the retro futuristic 1990s be a thing

"Hell, they even made a whole movie about his wrath" 🤣

*5:16** Don't forget that in the movie, Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, they traveled back in time and Chekov & Uhura went aboard the American nuclear aircraft carrier, U.S.S. Enterprise CVN-65, while it was moored at the Alameda Naval Air Station in California...*

@worldtraveler930

3 жыл бұрын

Don't you mean "Nuculer Wessel" 😁

@vincentstrack4933

3 жыл бұрын

Sadly they weren't able to use the Enterprise. The carrier that was used was Ranger.

@karlsmith2570

3 жыл бұрын

@@vincentstrack4933 yup, you can tell because the conning tower on the Ranger is totally different from the one on the Enterprise

@vincentstrack4933

3 жыл бұрын

@@karlsmith2570 if you look real hard you can see some of the sailors wearing U.S.S. Ranger hats.

@karlsmith2570

3 жыл бұрын

@@vincentstrack4933 I'll have to look for that the next time I watch Star Trek IV

Yet another contradiction you didn't mention - in "Space Seed", when Khan asks how long he was in suspended animation the answer was "two centuries" suggesting Star Trek took place at the beginning of the 23rd Century. That fit early fan material but the later official timeline put the episode around 2267. Basically the writers were winging it a lot and you need to either put Star Trek in an alternate time line, ignore Khan & Co or retcon the Hell out of it.

@mattirealm

Жыл бұрын

I agree. The timeline is mushy, but it doesn't matter to me that much. Those dates with Space Seed are probably incorrect as well because it was supposed to be 15 years from the Space Seed to TWOK. But that is 2282. But that isn't correct either as many fans theories put it at 2285. I think you are correct that Star Trek belongs in an alternate timeline. In fact, the constant retcons are getting more incoherent; a writer can't keep pushing back events because eventually it runs into other established bits of canon. I think it weakens the material and should be avoided, but, it is what it is. I still enjoy Star Trek, but it is clear that the writers didn't have a master plan for how this plays out.

I very much enjoyed Greg Cox's take on the Eugenics Wars. The involvement of Gary Seven explains how they had the tech to send Khan into space.

@cathyspence218

Жыл бұрын

I enjoyed all the Easter eggs sprinkled through the novels!

This story line always fascinated me. It's so realistic and why I love sci-fi. Who wouldn't want genius kids?

Very interesting discussion. I've always considered the Eugenics Wars and Khan an important factor that shaped the Star Trek universe as we know it. Even the later alternate history from the recent movies.

You've put much more effort into preserving star trek continuity than Abrams or Kurtzman have.

@dying101666

3 жыл бұрын

they're doing their best to ruin it.

@TheDuck632

3 жыл бұрын

Now that's not fair don't forget Les Moonves he killed the golden age of Trek

@dying101666

3 жыл бұрын

@@frankcabanski9409 I'm bisexual and I think gay sulu was cringy and forced.

@elzar760

3 жыл бұрын

A shoebox puts more effort into preserving Star Trek continuity than Abrams or Kurtzman have. That being said, I don’t wish to take anything away from Orange River who has done an amazing job on this content.

@richardvinsen2385

3 жыл бұрын

@@dying101666 gay George Takei thought gay Sulu was cringy.

You sir, are a hardcore Trekkie for sure! Thanks for the exhaustive, thoughtful analysis on one of the most enduring Star Trek characters and explaining the possible scenerios-

Nobody back then had any idea a tv show that was broadcast once 50 years ago would be scrutinized like this

I read both books by Greg Cox. It was fun! Captain Janeway's ancestor is responsible for the secret ship that Kahn took over. They started WARs before they turned on each other. But they were being chased down, so they banded together under Kahn to take that ship and go to a system that was going to be a 100 year trip.

@comentedonakeyboard

3 жыл бұрын

Like the Cox books to

@roryscott2941

3 жыл бұрын

It was well written but it really was an Assignment: Earth series more than an Eugenic Wars one. It's the only Star Trek book that made me feel swindled

@Delosian

3 жыл бұрын

Does it say where they were going to go in the USS Botany Bay?

@comentedonakeyboard

3 жыл бұрын

@@Delosian it was described as an uninhabited planet ca 100 lightyears from earth. And Gary Seven also explains to Khan that the journey will take over a century.

@Delosian

3 жыл бұрын

@@comentedonakeyboard So the USS Botany Bay left Earth in 1996, and was found 330 years later in 2326 (Space Seed). The USS Botany Bay was a DY-100 class star ship with a top speed of 1/10th the speed of light. 100 lightyears would therefore have been 1000 years away.

He was the best of the tyrants... and the most dangerous. Superior ability breeds superior ambition.

Guess you could say this subject is rather Khan-flicting. 😅 I'll see myself out.

@Fatherofheroesandheroines

3 жыл бұрын

Actually, I think it's more Khan-voluted

@dying101666

3 жыл бұрын

please stay.

@maeton-gaming

3 жыл бұрын

I guess you could beam yourself out!

@ML98837bob

3 жыл бұрын

I was drinking milk when I read this. Made me blow milk out my nose. It was worth the mess. That was funny!

@chimmy___

3 жыл бұрын

Oh schnap! No u di-ent!

Excellent video. People tend to forget that 'Star Trek' is a post apocalyptic story. The world had to start over anew. Which is why TOS Enterprise had buttons and toggle switches. I think it's plain that the beginnings of these conflicts were in the latter 20th century. Finishing out in the early 21st century. I also think it's important to remember this is all happening in another story universe. Same as 'Star Wars', Marvel or DC. It does not have to mirror our world exactly. ✌❤

Kahn was a metaphor for Gengis Khan and his rule over the entire world through the silk route.

Oh this vid was just lovely. I offer a perspective....the eugenics wars were avoided due to interference from Gary 7 back in operation earth. He kept the timeline mostly the same minus 30mill dead and laid the groundwork for the topple of the augments. Just a perspective

I've always believed that in the MCU universe, it was for the best that the Super Soldier program didn't succeed as intended. Otherwise something like this would've been the result there as well

The first thing to do to work out continuity and canon history is not to try and make it our time line or universe. It is its own thing. Its continuity is internal and that's why writers shouldn't try to dismiss, ignore, or disrespect the work of those who came before. Rethink your starting point.

Well done sir .. I see a man that enjoys, and cares about Star Trek !!!!

The Eugenics Wars were ignored in DS9 when Sisko, Bashir and Dax visited 2024 San Francisco at the time of the Bell Riots.

@apotheases

3 жыл бұрын

Actually in the background of one of the scenes with Jax there is a model of the Botany Bay on the guy's desk.

@richardlahan7068

3 жыл бұрын

@@apotheases But the Wars were not discussed and they were not discussed in the Voyager "Future's End" episodes where the crew goes back to 1994 LA to stop the launch of the timeship.

@leeyoung7826

3 жыл бұрын

I thought sisko mention something about a war that recently happen when they got there explaining why the society there is so screwed I have to rewatch that episode to be sure but I am sure he says something about it he doesn't name the war but he says there was one.

@EmEStudiosHannover

3 жыл бұрын

@@leeyoung7826 I think so too!

I think the only error here is that people are trying to fit real world events into fiction. there is no need for that

@Brodeon

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah. Star Trek universe should be treated as an alternate universe, not our universe

@antcow1239

2 жыл бұрын

@@Brodeon Right, it just means you have to make it flex in a strange way

@lamarravery4094

2 жыл бұрын

Not only is it impossible to do, so why bother?

@williampyle8635

2 жыл бұрын

SOME people of HIS age keep trying FIT the present reality INTO THEIR FICTION.

Like Archer eventually realising that a prime directive will one day need to be put in place, Daniels also said that there was a temporal prime directive between the species that had the technology the difference in their history and ours could be damage from how ever long time ships jumped about with that directive in place. Unless theres a second temporal cold war or a full fledged war. I personally dont mind time travel stories but I know a lot of people dont and I understand their point, a lot of the stories aren't concluded or resolved well, they just end fast, easily with "now everything is fine again".

A good discussion of a very convoluted subject! 🖖

@williampyle8635

2 жыл бұрын

TOO bad that REALITY does NOT fit into fiction.

@MatthewCaunsfield

2 жыл бұрын

@@williampyle8635 It depends on the fiction - New York is real, even if Spiderman is not 😉

"The Eugenics Wars" should serve as a warning for real-life Genetic Engineering.

@josephcontreras8930

2 жыл бұрын

Welcome to jurassic world...

@user-nf9xc7ww7m

2 жыл бұрын

The takeover of starfleet command by the proto-borg (bugs in the body) should serve as a warning against having a starfleet. .... For both yours and mine, perhaps we should learn how to improve instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater?

@southtexasprepper1837

2 жыл бұрын

@@user-nf9xc7ww7m In the Star Trek Universe, that's what scientists tried to do. However, their 'improvements' only breed superior ambition and tyranny. That's what "The Eugenic Wars" were all about. In real life, we don't know the long-term effects of genetic engineering to ourselves, to food crops, or the environment. Genetic engineering can also be used for warfare. Such as developing biological weapons that wouldn't normally occur in Nature.

It's eerie the similarities between the emerging modern Khan/augment backstory and the secret history of the emergency of the Brotherhood of Nod and GDI from the original Command & Conquer.

I think the truth is they messed up when they made the Eugenics Wars occur between 1992-1996. The writer had no idea that people would still be talking about such things in 2023 and he had an episode to write. The truth is we were not even close to the kind of eugenics that could create augments like Khan and his super people, and even today we can't do it. Greg Cox did an absolutely fantastic job reconciling events of the 1990's with a plausible take on the Eugenics Wars! My hat is off to him! I liked it so much I read it twice in a row! But the truth is such a massive war and regime change could not go unnoticed by the masses. It didn't happen nor could it have happened. The science was not that far along back then.

I always add sea quest DSV into my personal star trek canon, it takes place in 2014 and is at the beginning of the eugenics war, with one of the season finales actually deep diving into the eugenics topic quite heavily. I explain the discrepancy of the dates given and the time of the show quite simply, record's from that times are hard to come by. Thanks for reading and God bless

I would greatly enjoy a television or film adaptation of the eugenics wars myself. Stay well out there everybody, and Jesus Christ be with you friends.😊

I hear a lot about Gene Roddenberry being an optimistic futurist but he seemed to have low hopes for the near future when he wrote Space Seed; I hope I’m not wrong in my assumption that Gene was responsible for this storyline I think I would have preferred if the Star Trek would have become an alternate reality as the show caught up with real time in the 1990s

Greg Cox proved the best (and perhaps only) explanation for how the Eugenics Wars occurred but we were unaware of them: the genetic supermen acted as puppet masters behind the scenes and fought covertly. These novels should be read by all Trek fans, and I would love to see them become a series/film.

What about DS9 and some of the lore behind Bashir? Does that fit or add context to Khan's origin?

@EmEStudiosHannover

3 жыл бұрын

Yes! I have just put a more detailed question concerning this issue!

@The_Temple

2 жыл бұрын

that's what I wondered -- he mentioned having been genetically enhanced in such a manner that sure sounds like the augments, but don't think quite the same thing, but perhaps a connection somehow could be made

A movie about the rise of Khan and eugenics war would be interesting.

@lv2465

3 жыл бұрын

A series would be better.

@axepagode33626

3 жыл бұрын

@@lv2465 As long as we don't let CBS or JJ Abrams handle it.

I think it would be Awesome if CBS did an Eugenics Wars series.

I wonder what Vulcans think when they intercept youtube signals of hominids diligently analyzing a fantasy time line that involves their own species breaking the speed of light by now.

i kind of like that there’s this sort of mythologizing at play with the eugenics wars, since we’re looking at a 20th century event through the lense of something 400+ years later, some things are bound to be lost or muddled through the passage of time

Can have a spin-off series about the Eugenics Wars.

I always looked at Star Trek as taking place in a multi-verse,not just our universe as we know it.Modern science considers this an actual possibility so most all inconstancys in Star Trek could be explained this way..Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction !!

Been looking for something on the Eugenics Wars. Solid vid, hope to see more like it

Tyler the level of detail you go into with trek facts is amazing! I love it!

In simplest terms, ever since time travel was a reality in TOS, each incursion into the past, however minor, has altered the time line in some form or other, even perhaps creating alternate time lines (Abrahmsverse). There is little reason to get up in arms over what's "canon" or not if you accept this premise.

This was fun. It really does seem though that the Eugenics Wars and WWIII work best when viewed as roughly the same conflict. They fill the same narrative role, certainly. I had forgotten about that scene with the real-world 90's stuff in Enterprise, it's too bad that made it through editing, it would have made this a bit simpler.

@HappyBeezerStudios

3 жыл бұрын

i can see that the fighting kept going after the augments were deposed. when a major part of the world were part of a newly destroyed empire all kinds of people will try to get some of the spoils. Just look at how Alexanders empire basically fell into a series of smaller states, how the Mongol empire was broken up, or even how Rome was split and in the western part fell into warring states for over a millennium afterwards, or how the Ottoman Empire was basically split by western forces by simply drawing lines on a map, or how Germany was split after WWII being on both sides of the emerging cold war. Same should happen after Khan's empire was defeated. Every local administrator would have interest in regaining control over their province, suppressed people try to gain independence, external nations come and try to take over stuff. This can easily result in continued fightning, not get rid of the dictator but over who takes what of his empire.

@worldtraveler930

3 жыл бұрын

@@HappyBeezerStudios I can see the logic in that. 🖖

Trek has always been presented as OUR future, and given its hopeful message I feel like that’s important. It’s also a little jaring to here a character reference something from the past that is clearly not true. Not only that but aren’t we all used to picking and choosing with canon as Trekkies? We kinda have to because if all of on screen Trek is canon than it pretty much all contradicts itself. How many people really consider Star Trek five gospel canon? Or how many of us really think that women weren’t allowed to be Captain’s in the 2260? With all this in and Roddenberry’s stance on retcons, I’m more than happy to consider the Eugenics wars and WW3 one conflict in the mid 21st century. I know that if Star Trek is still on in 2063 we’ll have some problems. But for now, since literally all of Star Trek is fictional it doesn’t really matter when the eugenics wars happened.

@OrangeRiver

3 жыл бұрын

You certainly make some good points. I think it's prudent, often necessary, to simply treat Trek as an alternate timeline, but view it *thematically* as a possible future for humanity. Khan explicitly refers to the Botany Bay's launch year as 1996 in Star Trek II, I don't consider it worthwhile to push back that date just because it didn't happen IRL--it happened *in that world*. Even the Kelvin films set in the 2250s treated the Augments as 300 years old. If there were ever a true reboot, though, 2050s is a good time to place something like that. I'm not a canon purist, but in this instance the 90s Eugenics Wars seem to be firmly in the 90s. Also, Star Trek Continues had an episode where they address that line about female captains--although I personally tend to overlook it, I mean just look at Erika Hernandez. And yeah, I saw a fan theory that Star Trek V is a dream... while that's often a cop out, in this instance, I'll take it lol

@ubxs113

3 жыл бұрын

I think you’re probably right. The sci-fi nerd part of me wants internal canon consistency, but the emotional side of me recognizes that it’s the aspirational part of Star Trek that I love. It’s more important to be able to draw a direct line from our present to a possible better future than to make all their fake history make sense. In my head I just usually hand-waive it away with “a wizard did it”!

@lamarravery4094

2 жыл бұрын

I have faith that we'll all still be here in 2063, but our freedoms and wealth will be taken away some more and given to the 1% who will be even more powerful.

@lamarravery4094

2 жыл бұрын

@@OrangeRiver Then there's the Buck Rogers in the 25th century tv show from the late 1970s timeline. NASA launched the last deep space probe, Ranger 7 in 1987, lol.

Good stuff. You are awesome, Tyler.

Great review of the books / graphic novels on this subject, and the general presumed history of Khan and his fellow genetically created human tyrants.

Isnt it possible that, when Daniels was showing Archer all those views of different scenes that include our modern history, what was being shown was alternate timelines? That the Eugenics wars happen in Alpha and Beta timelines, but not in ours. Just a theory.

Best way of explaining these events would now be to say that we are somehow in an alternate reality to the events of Star Trek

The new season of Picard did a pretty good job with how the eugenics war started.

The Eugenics Wars timeline would fit in a universe where the Nazis won the war. They were heavily involved in eugenics.

@lucasbachmann

3 жыл бұрын

they don't need to win WWII. German scientists with dubious pasts worked for NASA and german rockets were reverse engineered by Russia. The Eugenic wars seems to have their origin in the notion that all races can be improved - not only Blonde German's deserve to exist.

@centurian318

3 жыл бұрын

Nazi Germany believed in better Soldiers through Chemistry as well.

@kingofthespazs

3 жыл бұрын

It doesn't need to be the germans, every major power in the world part takes in some degree of dubious genetic alterations.

@robertaguilar2124

3 жыл бұрын

Àctual lost or hidden history: most policies used by nazis against jews was first partially used in california against asians, especially Chinese before the WW I! Maybe that's why China wants real Augments or Replicànts against white western nations!

@lamarravery4094

2 жыл бұрын

@@robertaguilar2124 Where are you getting this from? Breitbart, lol.

Thanks for this video. I really enjoyed it. In my opinion, since time-travel has been a staple of every incarnation of Star Trek, it makes sense to me that the butterfly effect could distort historical information stated after the time-travellers returned to their proper time. In that regard, the Eugenics War seems to fall within that window of temporal flux where time-travellers always seem to arrive before or after those events, never during. The Eugenics Wars and WW3 definitely happen, but their details change as time-travellers muck about in the past.

Well done presentation !

An awesome collaboration of speculation & theorizing! You have done mpre to explain this popular portion than Paramount has ever has done.

Well researched, thank you! But one question to all you Trek nerds out there: Isn't the creation of Dr. Bashir and his fellows, who appeared two times on DS9, based upon the knowledge of all these Khan and Augments (Correctly written?) issues? And didn't they talk about that in these two episodes? I think that was the reason, why Dr. Bashir's true identity was kept secretly at first. The German episode's title of the first one is translated: "Dr. Bashir's secret" (I don't know the American original title, but can be the same of course). If all is like that, it is missing in your documentation... (Please don't regard it as a negative critic) B-)

This analysis of real history and Star trek canon is logical.

Great work man.

Superior ability breeds superior ambition. Space Seed is probably my favourite TOS episode

Funny they get an actor who played Paul Atreides who was a product of decades worth of genetic manipulation to play one of Soong’s augments..

@earlware4322

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I caught that as well. Not sure if that was intentional or just a happy little nerd Easter egg. 😃

Great result in trying to make sense of all this. Khan is definitely an interesting part of Star Trek. I’ve reconciled years ago that Star Trek happened in a different timeline. If the franchise can have the Kelvin Timeline this would be reasonable.

Today happens to be the 1 year anniversary of this video. Thank You, your channel is great!

Great work on the Eugenics Wars and retrospect!

the next star trek series should be about Khan and Eugenics Wars on Paramount Plus you got me interested Orange RIver on this Star Trek story arc

I always thought it was a ww1 to ww2 relationship between the eugenics wars and ww3

Well done!

There's also Sisko's journey into the past during the Bell Riots (happening in 2024) to reconcile with the Eugenics Wars/WWIII issues. The Bell Riots were a consequence of a worldwide economic depression, (such as typically happens in the aftermath of large wars) at least partly stemming from "political upheaval" in Europe. Nobody in the episode mentions such relatively recent warfare but all the signs are there. Several on-screen sources date WWIII as starting two years after the Bell Riots. It's likely that the Augments were covertly running things during this period. My personal headcanon is that so many records were lost or garbled that nobody who wasn't present in any of the wars knows what happened, and which conflicts belonged to which wars were matters of opinion more than being specific, distinct events. Khan was probably silently laughing to himself at the statements of Kirk and his crew and was unlikely to correct them. From his point of view, the less they knew, the better... for him. As more and more people traveled into the past, more and more snippets of information about the wars were retrieved, changing what we hear characters say on-screen. This is why we get conflicting dates for the Eugenics Wars (note the plural) and WWIII.

Could the discrepancies be due to timeline changes inadvertently made by Federation and other time travelers?

to hell with in the Darkness.

Nice video. I will point out one tidbit: People are constantly claiming that Voyager’s “Future’s End” completely ignores or doesn’t acknowledge the Eugenics Wars. That is simply not true. There is a model of the Botany Bay clearly visible on Rain Robinson’s desk. It’s a subtle acknowledgement, but it is an acknowledgement.

@OrangeRiver

3 жыл бұрын

Didn't catch that! Awesome. Yeah, like I said, I think that regardless of whether Future's End takes place in an alternate timeline or whatever, you're right that there's nothing in it to directly contradict the Eugenics Wars happening just beyond the scope of where we see our characters interact.

@robertaguilar2124

3 жыл бұрын

Don't believe in following so-called canon, but I shall say in real-life, red China is trying 2 create super-soldiers & super-athletes through genetic experimentation. Maybe China will start an àctual eugenics war within next 20 years. GMO embryos need 2 grow up first before useful, unless accelerated aging is added like replicànts!

@MoonjumperReviews

3 жыл бұрын

@@robertaguilar2124 - True, China supposedly working on creating human super soldiers is actually a thing. Furthermore, the tent cities of homelessness in places such as San Francisco, etc., is not that far off from DS9’s San Francisco “sanctuary districts” in the year 2024. It is now 2021.

You have put a lot of time and thought into this video. I always think of The Star Trek universe as an alternate split at some time in the 1950s. You mention the birth of the "supermen" in the 1950s . It would be interesting to explore what split in the timeline caused the "eugenics wars" and "WW3" in the ST universe.Perhaps Mainland China stayed under the control of Chang Kai Shek rather than Mao and gradually fell under the sway of Khan. The possibilities are endless.

Ya got a catchy voice.Kinda like the Twighlight Zone Sterling style,good work!!

@jymfysher7704

3 жыл бұрын

@John Barber Rod !!

@STho205

3 жыл бұрын

@John Barber very hard to type Serling (and have it stay) with an autoguess phone programmed in India or China. It often substitutes Sterling...however the commenter may have misspelled it themselves.

New subscriber, awesome video. Good job.

Oddly satisfying. Thanks for posting.

I hate when authors and comic book writers integrate Fiction with people in reality. Let's just assume it's in another dimension with different people.

This concept was ruined when we decided to make Star Trek history fit into our own.

Excellent video!

I like the idea that the eugenics wars weather war fought between Shadow governments and most casualties were attributed to things like terrorist attacks and natural disasters

and BOTH SUCK. Thus, let us continue to re-visit the excellent Star Trek TOS

Science frictions writers and junk science prognosticators like AL Gore need to start throwing their predictions much further into the future.

@pablohammerly448

3 жыл бұрын

@John Tminustwentyminutes Mercier: Science frictions? Did a sci-fi writer rub you the wrong way? 😲

Fantastic videos though love the format of this content

@OrangeRiver

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks a bunch!

@robertaguilar2124

3 жыл бұрын

By the way, what about Col. Green, other killer tyrant of WW3 in Star Trek lore?

Kirk time traveled so much that he probably spawned several conflicting time streams.

The entire franchise should be renamed "Time Trek".

Everything after Enterprise is corporate fanfiction...well I wish they were fans

@OrangeRiver

3 жыл бұрын

I like the 2009 movie as well as Beyond, Into Darkness is ~not great~ IMO, Picard was not great, Lower Decks progressively got better from a pretty rough start, and Discovery season 3 is interesting. Franchise definitely isn't the same, I'll give you that.

@mosser-wm3dx

3 жыл бұрын

@@OrangeRiver Picard had me in tears, despite its problems. I get that's what they were trying to do, whether to detract from problems or enhance the good idk. Picard for sure has issues with it's portrayal of Picard himself. But he could have been far worse, and I don't "hate" what they've done with him. STD is getting better, for all its faults. I am a big fan of Saru tho, their choice to make the captain an alien and not the focus of the show isn't an issue for me. Just wish Burnem wasn't at the center of literally everything. STD, I feel, it's doing that at this point a little bit. I like what they did with the idea of Trill symbiotes, but the way they focused on it felt off.

@OrangeRiver

3 жыл бұрын

Saru is my fave.

@MIKE_THE_BRUMMIE

3 жыл бұрын

@@OrangeRiver ah your right I did like 2009 and beyond. I could only watch 2 episodes of Picard I stopped when the one character complained about living in a trailer (I couldn't take it seriously then) and Discovery is a soap opera more concerned with positive affirmation, on the nose identiterian politics, sex and violence to be real star trek you can have all that but what leads the way must be storytelling and concepts. But if you happen to do any videos on why you enjoy them and what you've taken away from them I'm sure I'll enjoy your take on it.

" On earth..200 years ago I was a prince with power over millions. "

we need a series on the eugenics wars. 4 seasons thats all. it would be epic

Wow man how do only have 28k subs? Keep it up you're definitely a 100k+ channel. Keep it up man.

A thing to keep in mind is how distorted history can be as conflicts rage on. We have meticulous records from the Nazis because they believed they were recording the dawn of their thousand year empire, but other conflicts have scant details. A decades long war that included nuclear exchanges could easily muddy the waters to such an extent that records of that conflict could be fragmented & contradictory, but it could also distort the historical record for past events. The dark ages are called that because so few records survived.

Great video, thanks!

Outstanding commentary. ‘nuff said! ❤