Coach Chad is dead wrong on air density. I am a pilot, mechanical engineer and cyclist. Not only is cold air more dense than warm, moist air is less dense than dry air of the same temperature. So in the winter the air is more dense both due to temperature and lower moisture content. In aviation this gives us shorter takeoff distances in the winter and a more resposive feeling aircraft. The engine has more power, the prop generates more thrust and the wings more lift all from higher density. Yes drag is higher but it is out weighed by the other factors. Flying in the winter was always more fun. I would be 50 feet in the air at a point on the runway where I would would still be firmly on the ground during the summer.

@tristanhanley8741

Жыл бұрын

I'll add to this with this: There is a reason the hour record attempts, etc, are at around 3500 ft of elevation. I haven't personally done the math, but the reasons stated are that this is the lowest drag(density) that can be achieved without a loss in performance(low density reducing the power you can generate). The hosts should remember Ideal Gas law from Chemistry and Thermodynamics classes! PV = nRT , pressure, volume, number of molecules/moles, a constant, and temperature. With temperature and volume on opposite sides of the equation, one goes up and the other goes must go up with it if everything else remains the same. The volume will be directly tied to the density and that is a major factor in drag calculations as well as your body's functions.

@shakinwakin35

Жыл бұрын

Came here from Spotify for this, ha. I could have sworn on this podcast they had already talked about losing a km or two per hour when you drop 5-10’ F. Could have been the marginal gains podcast. There are online calculators for this for anyone KOM-minded. Though admittedly, denser, colder air should make you fitter and cool you better. just not enough to overcome the added drag from colder air

@GregoryNash

Жыл бұрын

Enginerds are screaming "PIVNERT!!!" pv=nrt.

@billeterk

Жыл бұрын

My question was, "so... how do hot air balloons work again?"

@stevek8829

Жыл бұрын

Heat, height, humidity.

If relative humidity is constant, colder air will be more dense. However, in practical applications, ie, outside of a textbook where you have the whole system of systems playing together, higher air temperature is capable of holding a higher relative humidity. So in areas where that water is available to evaporate and become that relative humidity, that density can be higher. As at lower ambient temperatures, that water doesn't evaporate as quickly, and if sufficiently cold, will condense on solid objects and freeze. So, the short answer: It depends. If humidity is fixed, then it's a straightforward answer: Colder air is more dense ("air" meaning the complete soup we breathe and ride through). If humidity is allowed to float, because you're near a body of water to materially allow for humidity to float, then the chart is a bit different. There's one inflection point where the vapor pressure of water is "large" enough to offset the relative density increase in the temperature decrease in the overall fluid. There will also be another inverse inflection point when that temperature trends downward to 0deg C / 32F (depending on relative altitude) where the humidity condenses more rapidly than the rate of evaporation which then drops relative air density because the overall composition of the soup (air) is changing. Sooooooo. Longer story short: It depends.

Adiabatic is the word for today. The molecular density of air is less dense in warm moist air. As it rises in elevation, the air cools the moisture condenses into precipitation and the air cools and becomes heavy and falls. Because of this, air crossing a mountain ridge tends to rain more on the one side and be gustier and drier on the other. For example, west Washington state vs east of the ridge. One side is a temperate rainforest and the other side is arid.

Thanks for all the topics timestamps breakdown on the description! 👍🏻 Really appreciate it 🙏🏻

Jonathon, I completely relate to your description of the difference between "checking a box" and "filling your cup". (around 16:30). I appreciate what all of you, and trainer road, are doing and providing. Thanks

Loved the episode! Fun hot takes leading to great, meaningful discussions. Keep them coming!

Love the convo on the gravel series. It's interesting how gravel events promote fun more than anything but I friggin love competition!

As a trained aerospace engineer I can say definitively that air gets denser when it’s colder. From 30 to 10 degrees Celsius cost you 7%more power because the air is 7% denser. By the gas law the density of the air is given by the pressure divided by the temperature and a gas constant. Higher temperature means the denominator is larger therefore density is lower.

in terms of costs, I agree a breakdown is helpful so people understand what it costs to put on a ride, but where I live you have to have permits regardless of whether or not you are closing roads, insurance is a massive cost, signage, aid station supplies if its not self-supported, timing methods, startline set ups, audio set ups, and prizes/swag/medals etc. all adds up....

I was given a nap tip years ago. Take your caffeine right before your nap. Set a 20-25min alarm. That caffeine has now kicked in, in that 20min nap. I typically feel ready to tackle anything.

@werejonesen1907

Жыл бұрын

And I'll use aquaphor for a chamois cream when I'm on a long ride. Or for healing when I'm starting get some tissue soreness

Hot take on inward hoods is hilarious. I’ve done this for years actually, it’s quite comfortable for me and SEEMS more ergonomic, instead of supinating your hands to accommodate a more vertical hood I find my hands are in less stressed position. BUT! To each their own.

The DOMs question...the answer was exquisitely answered on a recent Huberman KZread called "Dr. Andy Galpin: Maximize Recovery to Achieve Fitness & Performance Goals | Huberman Lab:"

Cold air is def more dense than warm air. Think heat expansion.

Coach Chad, not a scientist but do remember high school biology, where I first learned about molecules: heat makes molecules spread apart. Ie, less dense. 🤓

I’ve been teased about having a very pro looking bike fit, even though I’m a 50-something guy with average flexibility. But I’m 190cm tall, with longish legs and freakishly long arms. So I’m on an L frame, rather than XL or bigger, with a lot of exposed seat post and my bike fitter put me on a 140cm stem with a lot of drop from saddle to bars. It looks very pro, but it just fits my proportions.

Hello from gravel capitol of VICTORIA Australia, Woodend.

I liked Ivy on the Intro. Nice change of pace.

Chamois cream home brew: Utterly Smooth cut with tea tree oil and witch hazel to desired viscosity and tingle.

Chamois cream: (Wal-mart) Equate beauty advanced healing ointment, 14oz tub, $12. While having kids and experimenting with different diaper rash creams the ones that didnt work well for rashes i started experimenting using it for chamois creams.. so it wasnt wasted🤷‍♂️ Hardly any creams/ointments worked well, some didnt like washing out of bibs either.. this stuff is great, give it a try. They do sell it in smaller tubes.. and for kids's diaper rashes the best we've used is Aquaphor, but that doesnt like washing out of chamois pads.

p x V = m R T, the ideal gas law. Density rho = m / V at equal air pressure ( p = constant) at higher temperature is lower.. For instance, on a flat terrain, at 200W, having a frontal surface of 0.42m², it will translate into 31.3 km/h at 2 deg C, and 31.9 at 20 deg C ... so the hottake has some truth (average rolling resistance and average air drag factor). If we take humidity into account : Humid air is less dense than dry air because a molecule of water (M ≈ 18 u) is less massive than either a molecule of nitrogen (M ≈ 28) or a molecule of oxygen (M ≈ 32). About 78% of the molecules in dry air are nitrogen (N2). Another 21% of the molecules in dry air are oxygen (O2). The final 1% of dry air is a mixture of other gases. For any gas, at a given temperature and pressure, the number of molecules present in a particular volume is constant. So when water molecules (vapor) are introduced into that volume of dry air, the number of air molecules in the volume must decrease by the same number, if the temperature and pressure remain constant. Warm air can contain more humidity and hense at the same relative humidity is less dens. The lower the air density the lower the resistance the cyclist feels.

@gregbrown3764

Жыл бұрын

The hot take (or cold take in this case) is partially true. For it to be completely accurate, you'd have to hold a fixed humidity throughout the relative temperature changes.

@trothaksharkpuncher1059

Жыл бұрын

This is the correct answer. Seems like only one person here understands air.

Great episode as usual 😁

@TrainerRoad

Жыл бұрын

Thanks so much for joining us!

Great as always. Re; Ironman World Championships and $$. Over the last several years IM has added many races to the calendar, thus diluting the events overall and, in the case of women, the field at worlds. Several IM now are non-pro events with same fees and slot allocation. The transition at Kona can only facilitate a certain # of bikes (can't recall 2500 maybe +/-) and from that #, before all the new events, the slots to each event (which used to all have a pro field which IS half the fun) are then allocated based on some formula of #'s. Then at each event, according to the # of athletes in each age group and male/female the World slots are allocated. Its a very fair system. Yes, women are outnumbered by men in the 70/30 or 60/40 range but that isn't IM's fault, it is because there are fewer women signed up. So the formula is fair. Eg: in the 50-54 AG there might be 5 men slots and 2 women slots based on entries. When IM added a ton more races, now they either have to have fewer slots for worlds at each event OR add space in transition, which is finite. Rather than keep the quality of worlds high, they have opted to dilute the field at worlds which will now host the full transition area (say its 2500) of women and another 2500 of men. For women in particular - this may add 2/3 more women! And you know what that does? Already people have qualified for worlds placing in the 20's which could be 1-2 hours SLOWER than the winner of that race. So now you have a bunch of not the best of the best making it to Kona (or Nice) and its easy if you are a top 10 or so finisher to find a race to qualify at. IM70.3 Worlds in St. George was case in point. 2 days of racing. Women first. In my AG (50-54) the top 20, say were all around 5:02-5:30. Tight (it was a crazy cold swim and morning). But the AVERAGE finish time was something like 6:20 or 6:30. And several over 7 hours. Unless you have a mechanical or injury or nutrition issue that forces you to walk or wait for help (which are not many), a world championship should not have half the field finishing the same as if it were just a regular 70.3. I don't want to go to Kona or Nice to an event that is simply diluted for a numbers game. Of course it is so much money for the organization. Close to $1000 US (I'm Canadian so that's more in CAD) entry fee. The race is manned by volunteers. Thousands of them. And finally, by separating men and women, IM is separating (or more likely eliminating) the family affair - the husband/wife or father/daughter mother/son and the training partners who are different sexes or the coach that has athletes in both. Sure have it in 2 locations but keep it elite. Numbers are numbers (more women entries in the qualifiers mean a more equal number at worlds. Period). Make this a pinnacle event not something that #25 got a roll down. This is not how you equalize sport. Equal COVERAGE as you stated - for sure. And I'm a yes to drafting. Though most triathletes are super sketchy and can't corner. Just use and pass :)

I feel like Crits require “soccer fitness”. Like a soccer player has to be able to jog (think 10k pace) for 90 minutes during a match, but they also sprint every 2 minutes at almost full speed. It’s similar to attacking in a crit and then settling in and attacking again

Google says cold air is denser with more molecules, thus it's slower than warm air

When you open the freezer you see the cold air spill at the bottom as it's more dense. Obviously everyone has suggested it's cold but that may be an easy thing to recall when trying to remember I'm future.

The problem with drafting is that a competitor might come out of the swim with a one minute advantage. But, to keep that minute, she has to make a solo breakaway on the bike while those in 2nd, 3rd, 4th have a paceline and share the workload. The simple thing is to do the bikes first. Then, if a rider has a minute lead going to the swim, she can maintain it because there is no draft in the swim.

As a complete newbie to cycling...I kept getting suggestion of petal in circles...not helpful...while the description of scraping the mud was an action I understood & it helped me. Thanks...Chad

OK Chad, this will mess with your head, but it is entirely possible for warm air and cold air to have the same density (at different volumes); the warm air simply holds more moisture (water vapour). In a fixed volume of air the amount of water vapour is constant, but the humidity is relative to temperature, cool the air and the relative humidity will increase, when relative humidity approaches 100% the air can hold no more moisture, it is saturated and you’ll get condensation, fog outside, or rain. Warm air does not rise… it is displaced by cold air falling, due to gravity - in a closed system: air cools, humidity increases, density increases, gravity causes cold air to fall, warm air is displaced upwards.

I found the following explaination. Colder air moves slower, collects together, and sinks with higher density.

So yeah sorry Chad, moist air is less dense as the molar mass of water is less than air. Remember we're talking about water in vapor state. Additionally warm air is less dense as it expands. You are right in saying warm air holds more water but it just decreases the density further

Molecules at higher temperatures have more energy and can vibrate faster and allows for less drag. But if the humidity is higher in the warm weather then it cold slow you down. Given the humidity is equal between to temperatures. The cold temperature will be slower.

@JonathanLee7

Жыл бұрын

I am victorious over Chad!!!!

@trothaksharkpuncher1059

Жыл бұрын

@@JonathanLee7 Well, you're mostly victorious -far better informed than Chad 🤣, but in the comments there's a widespread misunderstanding of the effect of relative humidity on air density. At a constant pressure, when relative humidity increases what's happening is that H2O molecules (18 g/mol) are offsetting N2 and O2 molecules (28 and 32 g/mol ). This reduces the average mass of the air molecules, which reduces the density. You can refer to a psychrometric chart for the details (this will track specific volume, which is the inverse of density).

Obviously if the temperature of a gas is reduced then the density will increase, as the energy is reduced the molecules get closer together.

Why is cold air more dense than warm? This is because warmer molecules of air move faster, creating an expansion effect that decreases air density. Colder air moves slower, collects together, and sinks with higher density. This is why warm air rises above cold air.

@gregbrown3764

Жыл бұрын

Assuming a fixed humidity, yes.

Colder is slower . altitude density effects flying

cold air is denser. Airplanes require higher speeds to take off in warmer temperatures compared to cold weather.

i'm just using shea butter instead of the chamois creme

To John's point about BC riding in squamish valley, whistler and North Shore the ratings ARE all over the place...Whistler Blacks are BLACK, Squamish Blacks are Whistler Blue, North Shore Blacks are Squamish Blue... The fraser valley is it's own beast. All really fun riding though.

van Aert is far more interesting to watch. His tactics and multiple talents are fenomenal. I get that the other one catches more attention.

You lost me at drafting with tri-bars; only pros can do that. If you think that makes it more fun, you should try it.

Cold air is slower

my position is more pro than pro's, my power just needs to catch up.

Air density is effected by 3 variables; Temp, Altitude, and Humidity. With altitude and humidity constant COLD air is denser. Thus the reason why the 3 Hs (high, hot, humid) are what makes performance worse.

lifetime will sell more with that narrative, the pro's will come regardless. it also makes for a more interesting story.

Matteo won the GC.

Cold air is absolutely 100% not denser than warm air...

I was diagnosed with extreme ADHD medicated since childhood and now I avoid meds. I 100% disagree that I need more sugar or caffeine. I am a competitive XC mtbr., and just the act of working out helps many with ADHD stay engaged. Too much caffeine and sugar would have the opposite effect for me and make me very uncomfortable and distracted. I need min effective dose/ avg dose. With podiums under my belt it seems to be working. I also highly recommend never ever training / racing on ADHD meds.

no such thing as correct form with any kind of working out, just like yall mention with pedal stroke. with push ups move your head forward a couple inches in a push up position, thats real. i know that isnt a simple pushup eventually youll be doing planche push ups or hand stand push ups, but it means ppl dont need weights to get insane strength, that goes for training legs as well.

The airplane folk say height, heat and humidity thin the air.

Cyclocross is awesome, but it's the least inclusive. I can't think of anything more likely to discourage me from spending money on a race than knowing I'm getting kicked for getting lapped.

Slower in the winter because wearing more clothes restricts my movement.

C’mon fellow cyclists-stop being so adverse to strength training. You’re missing out on a huge benefit to your cycling and fitness in general. Plus, it will increase bone density so you’re not injuring yourself because you only do non-load-bearing exercise with repetitive motion (i.e. cycling). 😀

@TrainerRoad

Жыл бұрын

We agree! :)

How long ya’ll gonna argue about something you can google in 3 seconds!? Lol Oh and Chad is like way wrong.

its funny when someone spends 8k on 18lb bike.

The far worst episode in years! 2 hours of trash

@TrainerRoad

Жыл бұрын

Thank you for the note! Let us know what you'd like to hear more of; Deep dives? Training discussions? Nutrition? We welcome feedback! :)

@juicyfruit100x

Жыл бұрын

Less filler words with saying "like" from Jon. Over 500 "like" filler words per episode gets obnoxious. I'd be drunk and passed out if it was a drinking game for that word

So yeah sorry Chad, moist air is less dense as the molar mass of water is less than air. Remember we're talking about water in vapor state. Additionally warm air is less dense as it expands. You are right in saying warm air holds more water but it just decreases the density further