Maybe its just me and my local area, but loads of people have turned their backs on 40k and its recent shenanigans and have moved to HH instead. A fair portion of those who have moved to HH are older and more veteran wargamers who dont care for the 15th new Primaris Lt. Hopefully it stays strong for years to come.

@peeledapples4176

9 ай бұрын

Same, we've got about 6-8 new people just joined our group.

@davidradovic4198

9 ай бұрын

My buddies and I have been working on it, but a lot of the 40k players are sticking to it. I have had only a handful of 10th ed games, only one since early August and its just terrible. And I was one of the few who actually really liked 9th (sans the stupid strat bloat). Heresy is so much better, but we will keep at it

Heresy, and the pace of releases is exactly what I want as a mid 40s hobbyist. I’ll never again have the time to play 2 games a week, or care about near-monthly codex releases and points changes. On the flip side I now have the cash to pay for esoteric resin models and the patience not to care if one particular troop choice is late coming to plastic. If GW release a Siege of Cthonia style book once a year and continue at half the pace they have done for model releases (3 dreadnoughts, umpteen tanks, a lot of nice resin bits and bobs, 2 tactical armor marks in just over a year) then I think the middle aged demographic that forgeworld always targeted will be fine with it. Am I being too optimistic?

@AuthorSurrogate

9 ай бұрын

This is pretty much where I’m at too

@JanitorScruffy

9 ай бұрын

Yeah once they get the basic stuff and troops in plastic so more people can afford them, I'm cool with a release schedule more like Flames of War and less like 40k. Space Marines in 40k are more or less a subscription service.

@sonicwingnut

9 ай бұрын

Yup, same here. I do like 40K but feel the meta-chasing fomo aspects of it are a bit much for me, whereas Heresy I can just collect cool models and if they're good in-game, well, good for me. Yes I think certain plastic kits could have come sooner but for instance Breachers I'll just convert anyways.

@padanfain7466

9 ай бұрын

What this guy said.

@Vrooten

9 ай бұрын

Sounds familiar! The pacing suits me fine, and when I'm finally done with marines there's mech to look forward to!

Nobody likes to admit it, but the Outer Circle's cynicism is right quite a lot.

@blackbriargaming5483

9 ай бұрын

No hate here 😊 I've known Macca and Cat for years. Together, we cover Heresy from all angles. Both are equally valid and important.

@JanitorScruffy

9 ай бұрын

@@blackbriargaming5483 if it weren't for Australia, there would be neither Foster's, nor Heresy.

@troglodyte4207

9 ай бұрын

A stopped clock is right twice a day

@x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x

9 ай бұрын

No really, guy from outer circle is very manipulative with his statements.

@sonicwingnut

9 ай бұрын

At the same time I think it can put people off a bit thinking they've invested in total trash then you see a ton of experienced gamers elsewhere really enjoying 30K and saying how much better it is than current 40K.

Personally, I very much hope you’re wrong. I freaking love Heresy as a member of the 2.0 influx, but I have no interest in LI. The smaller scale takes all of my favorite aspects out of the game except for the lore related things and I, like many Heresy players, have not been a fan of “Heresy” Thursdays being stolen away by LI reveals. It only further dissuades any interest I had in LI and breeds bitterness. (It doesn’t help that Iron Warriors are one of my favorites and I find myself relating to them far too much.)

@peeledapples4176

9 ай бұрын

Yeah, I have literally zero interest in LI and I can absolutely guarantee barely anyone will actually play it.

@Wanten-the-stormtrooper

9 ай бұрын

My sentiments exactly. It's getting annoying that a game that should be the 3rd big game from GW alongside 40k and AoS is instead being essentially shoved aside for a quick cash grab like LI...

@papanurgle9015

9 ай бұрын

Hear hear they ruined heresy Thursday with a game no one will play and that will be crazy expensive. If you think 2.0 marine battles all the same waiting until LI where there aren't even legion unique units. I for one am happy I got 30k 2.0 after 10th edition 40k is a joke. Terrible ruleset and they won't be able to fix that until 11th

@jellydamgood

9 ай бұрын

And then when LI dies in the next few years, we will be back here again, being told to go buy the next game with the standard oh gw gonna do what gw do, the fans tried but couldn't save it. Now shut up, open your wallet and buy the next batch of soon to be obsolete plastic.

It's a shame GW doesn't seem to have the attention span or willingness to invest the proper amount of time and resource needed to nurture and sustain new game systems beyond 40k and AoS. By the time launch boxes hit shelves, they've already moved onto the next massive, new release. Utterly bizarre. Heresy 2.0 could have been huge if they had a more reliable release schedule. Anyway hope LI is as good as you hope for!

@CoverSlaves

9 ай бұрын

It could have been huge, but sadly its a game still waiting for core feature to be addressed, jetbikes and skimmers can't even move over other models. It's that much worse than 1.0 sadly,.

@jeffers1985

9 ай бұрын

This is the issue with all the games coined specialist. The community supported these games when gw ditched them first time around. The new epic coming I can see fallen flat as for 10 years the epic community have flooded STL files of stuff. If the pricing is true for epic, it will fall flat

Spot on with the lifecycle of speciality games. I fully anticipate that Legions Imperialis will be actively developed for 2-3 years and will then stagnate like Titanicus (a fantastic ruleset and set of models, BTW).

@ScreamingTc

9 ай бұрын

They couldn't even be arsed to give us Titanicus players a Siege of Terra campaign book. They could have gone to town on corrupted titans, creating a butt ton of mutated and corrupted titan parts to play with, but nope, Titanicus wasn't earning ALL THE MONEY and was put on life support. At least it wasn't taken out the back and shot, like Aeronautica was.

GW fumbled Necromunda? First time hearing that one.

@mrdelaney4440

9 ай бұрын

The rules and books are spread across continents.

@boop2908

9 ай бұрын

@@mrdelaney4440 You disliking that doesn't mean its fumbled. Necromunda is the most popular GW game in my area and I've not heard as much criticism of Necromunda as I have 40k, Heresy or KT.

@lceidolon

9 ай бұрын

The initial launch/ pacing of the core gangs (Clan Houses) took overly long for a lot of people, BUT, Necromunda has had consistent content delivered across plastics, specialized resin kits (FW dramatis personas and hanger-ons), and copius rules additions. The latter is a lot to keep up with, but it is also fundamentally optional. We have nearly a dozen campaign types to play, singularly or in combination. Necromunda is tabletop wargaming meets an RPG, and I freaking love it. Blood Bowl, Kill Team, Warcry, and Underworlds are also very well supported. IMO, only IA, Blackstone Fortress, and to a lesser extent, Adeptus Titanicus really have any merit in the video's suggested argument. And two of those are being partially drawn into LI.

Using the Liber Centura, Panoptica and Antiquia has given HH 2.0 a much needed boost in the arm and cannot recommend them enough

For me HH is not dead, HH is in slow release mode and we know that since the last Warhammer fest with the road map that people have already forgotten. The next release to come is the mistery army in plastic that should be revealed in the next preview show with certainly the MK6 assault squad. The pattern of release for HH is the same that was showed in the road map, a bunch of plastic and resin releases with a campaign book like the siege of CThonia next summer. That being said the Exemplary battle books are only a plus to make money for them. But will see if it's that right on the long term. As for the LI game, we already know that it will have campaign book as mentionned in the latest White Dwarf.

I know youre trying to be positive about this assessment, but it just feels like cope at this point. Ive amassed a sizable SoH contingent since 1.0 when I was in highschool and was blown away by Alan Blighs work. The blow FW suffered after his death was immense. They slowly lostnall momentum, just to have GW swallow them and spit their creative talent aside. As youve said, weve been given a (barely) passable ruleset with 2.0. Many factions or legions are shells of what they were and dont seem to fit their rules and lore. Almost as if they had 40k rules designers take over and give them a 40k makeover to attract 40k players, but in the process losing both. Saying you can be bitter or just keep playing and supporting GW feels derogatory to the criticism theyve deservedly accumulated. We cant expect them to change if they keep getting players to buy into the " flash in the pan " game systems they quickly discard in favor of the next impulse buy. Thats not bitterness speaking, its a desire and hope for a change for the better. The fanbase deserves better, as does the setting. There are people who are passionate for it in GW as well and it showed brightky for a moment in 1.0, and now has been shelved or discarded. They need more vocal feedback.

@papanurgle9015

9 ай бұрын

And other legions sucked in 1.0. EC specifically always got the short end of the stick in 1.0.

@SargeJTQ

9 ай бұрын

@@papanurgle9015 they definitely weren't one of the strongest, but the perfection angle was cool and I witn asked a guy sweep through our group with it

Well it does feels strange getting berated not very long ago for being "negative" about LI, and then waking up to this doom and gloom about Age of Darkness. Your channel has been certainly one of the motivating factors since last year to "keep getting hyped for the Heresy" for me, most often balanced with sensible takes and critical thinking. I really wish you all the best with LI (I get the appeal, but not a product for me); if you feel like covering the new AoD stuff anyway after all, I'll be the first to watch and cheer.

I have absolutely no interest in legion imperialis at all. Epic scale just doesn't have anything for me. HH is fine currently. A slow release suits it fine for me. 1st edition lasted what 10 years? suits me fine. All my friends have switched to HH as we all hate 40k since 7th edition. HH 2.0 feels like the natural succesor to 7th ed 40k.

While I do think standard scale Heresy will live on, I think you're right that it will do so thanks to the community and the rules update they will create. The silver lining for the GW rules that we've seen from the plastic assault marines and melee weapons release is that if people are vocal enough and GW thinks that they can sell a product they will make it. Hopefully GW will do the same with the next HH book.

My personal take here is that you've lost interest in the 30k style army, and gone too deep into the Legions Imperialis hype-train. The rules releases for Horus Heresy are not what spurs this community on. We don't need a 'codex drop' each month to stay invested or to keep enjoying the game. Much like how Chess doesnt receive rules updates, we are fine to play the game we love with COOL models and great story plots. This isnt Warhammer 40k. Our community is 'better' than that, and much less toxic. Your channel has focussed on the LI sidegame, which will possibly die out after 12 months, as GW ceases support for the game, releasing everything and monitoring sales. Much like everything else, they'll notice it doesnt sell like 40k does and refocus their efforts into other projects. I really think this is something the community needs to remind themselves of. The side games, will die. GW will pretend they dont even exist, once they're no longer profitable. A shame to see this youtube channel divert so hard from something I was very passionate about, to focus on a side-game I have no interest in; but you do you.

@IanCroweModelling

9 ай бұрын

It's all a bit hyperbolic. They're building to the orgasmic erupting of the Siege of Terra. They already put out a release schedule for the year, we've got a 'new' army coming soon, assault marines and whatever else. To me this seems like a IL hype-train, a few people will actually buy if rumours of the prices are anything to go by. I guess we'll wait for the next game and get hyped for that and claim something else is dead. What this actually is 'I've personally lost hype for the game, and now I'm going to the next new shiny thing, so for me, Heresy is dead in my brain'.

@CoverSlaves

9 ай бұрын

" Our community is 'better' than that, and much less toxic." x for doubt

It’s sad to here that here, because this channel is one of the few what don’t fall into intentional outrage and click bait tantrums. So I know it must actually be that bad and not the usual hate-wank over nothing It’s not like the edition was always brimming with creativity and passion: as a Death Guard player I felt pretty keenly the impact of having nobody on the team DG fan, with how phoned in some of our rules were (even the display army was extremely workmanlike with every model looking speed painted, even characters and centrepiece vehicles) and it’s a shame to see that lack of passion spreading further afield

@blackbriargaming5483

9 ай бұрын

Ha ha thank you! I think? 😅 This book is pretty bad hey. I'm hoping there's something better for the next rules release and that they don't just plan on hitting us with the next 3 volumes over the next 18 months. We'll wait and see!

I think heresy is going to pick up some time in the future. The release cycle predominantly focused on older players complaints (the issues with building resin tanks mainly.) suggesting GW wasn’t intending for this game to be so popular, and thought it would just be HH1 players continuing on. They were obviously wrong, but due to the lead time on making things, they haven’t actually been able to move things along as quickly as possible. For their rules, I hope they can get their quality under control, and if not, pano is a great way to have a more “refined” version of the rules.

@SleepySoviet

9 ай бұрын

Pano is such a mixed bag though. Genuinely good changes and also baffling oversights

Can’t fault a word you said 👍

I'm giving gw till early next year and I'll be pushing Panoptica in our group for 30k heresy It's a great tidy up. Of the rules and people can Try small addons to get used to it It's the only way moving forward Not buying into another system "epic" Gws seems to be on a Massive downhill spiral with everything at the moment and epic is just another waste of money It's already very clear that epic models are over complicated and spaced out so you get less per box so pay more Most people don't have money or time to invest in multiple game systems

I'm just happy to be getting it. Once i have everything, i wouldn't want to keep buying a new addition every farts end. 😊

If heresy 2.0 goes the way of 1.0 I honestly don't mind. I already dropped playing the latest 40k system, focusing on 9th and 8th instead. I can do this for 30k too.

A slow release but it's expected when 40k is the most popular. But yes, the rules could do with updates like 40k.

Oh so it was you that beat my bid on ebay for the 7th book

@blackbriargaming5483

9 ай бұрын

Ha ha nah. Got it from someone on FB Marketplace. What did it go for on ebay!?

@chrishaynes3505

9 ай бұрын

@blackbriargaming5483 too damn much America dollars it was like 350 I believe that's around 600 Australia dollars

@blackbriargaming5483

9 ай бұрын

@chrishaynes3505 wild. I got mine for $300AUD and it still felt like a lot 😅

I really like HH, yes it's got its balance and mechanics issues. But I love all the different HQ specialties, so many weapon variations, and so many types of units. I think Legions Imperialis will be like Adeptus Titanicus, light support but still has strong community

Oh wow, you really think LI wouldn't get the same treatment as AoD? 😬

Are their any rule sets for the zenos so we can play the great crusade? Obviously Eldar and Orks existed along with a bunch of other zenos it might be fun and as an Iron hands player might let me use my primarch.

Epic is a cool concept but it's going to get a fraction of any heresy player base, receive the same poor rules support as HH2.0 and is going to be profoundly daunting as a hobby project for any significant portion of the gaming community. Realistically it'll be a portion of the same community that will keep playing variants of 28mm heresy using 3d printed/plastic gw product.

@guilliman1990

9 ай бұрын

I think it won't matter. Given that printers are so prevalent. Me I have zero interest at all in epic heresy non but I already have people wanting things printed because gw don't produce the items

While my interest in LI has died off again already, I am still very much looking forward to its release. It will provide additional background on the HH setting - and that will be usable for both HH 2.0 and LI games alike.

heresy has had more model releases in the past year than 40k(!), but it’s dead because perennial whiners say “old good, new bad” enough times on their youtube channels.

Im pulling out of LI in favour of netepic AU rules, working on a 6mm army but will also do a 8mm army for it. If LI gets good my 8mm army should be a good spring board to jump in. Alternativelty i might use LI minis but HH 2.0 rules.

Iam not going to touch Legions Imperialis. I will keep going at a slow pace with Heresy but thats it, Iam really done with GW games. The crazy price hikes, the endless rule books and updates.

Sadly i said this a few weeks ago in one of my videos , its like HH was a launch point for Legions and once that comes out HH would be there but not as strong as everyone hopes and needs , it is a crying shame , but sadly i can see this with many games with gw aos and 40k are there golden children and maybe the return of the old world but apart from that everything else is a side project

FYI, what was the Forge World website has posted a snip on Legions Imperialis.

@blackbriargaming5483

9 ай бұрын

The likely continued delay? On it! 😅

@marcmiddleton2277

9 ай бұрын

@@blackbriargaming5483 in the comments

@marcmiddleton2277

9 ай бұрын

My bad there FB

HH slower releases with stuff is not for me an indication the game is dead I have an entire group of people who play regularly so it really feels weird to call the game dead With more models and books coming (even if the 1 book is bad) I don’t see how that’s gonna turn the game towards being dead Heresy was always niche and will remain niche and saying otherwise or wanting the game to be more mainstream is just not possible imo even with plastic releases

Great video. I sometimes wonder if GW as a company, actually hates producing models and game systems. I would not be surprised that once a big budget movie is commissioned and becomes successful, that could be the end of their gaming range.

warhammer has grown beyond GW, warhammer belongs to the people who love to build paint and play!

Heresy is dead at them prices ill stick to warlord games and fow

OPR supports Heresy armies.

I would NEVER invest in a GW product that has its own scale. Never touching Lotr and will especially never touch the "epic" scale products. Insanely overpriced sub-par product as far as miniature goes. If I was a gamer, I'd perhaps give it a thought, but as a hobbyist? Never.

"wonderful mark 3 set" lmao, where is my mark 2 and 5

@blackbriargaming5483

9 ай бұрын

There's a Mk2 tank driver right...? ;)

Why waste money on this when Mantic are going to release Warpath next year.

It's funny, I know he's nitpicky but you're right, Macca is really good at cutting through the bullshit. Shame he defended ArchWarhammer, a literal Nazi, and said there was nothing Arch said he hasn't said in private himself and he doesn't understand the fuss. Unsubbed after that. For the source check out his Lore KZreadr tier list.

why not learn battletech and alpha strike do to large scale battles? Support other companies?

They need to focus on the troops. They also need to take out the reactions. Not a fan of those. To hell with the epic game. I have zero interest in that game. It's going to be a huge dip game too.

@CoverSlaves

9 ай бұрын

"They also need to take out the reactions. Not a fan of those." They're awful

I think the missions are pretty decent. I'm looking forward to trying them out. The rules for EC are thoroughly mid. Not terrible, or unplayablely bad, just very aggressively mid. I main TSons, and I'm starting up Solar Aux, so aggressively mid is just kinda normal for my forces. I think having so many things revolve around Daemon Fulgrim is probably not great, but eh? Not the worst set of rules. Still uses the pretty strong Astartes army list, and has some interesting gimicks.

Promo_SM

I completely disagree about the book being bad, the new EC rules are brilliant. You dont need to have demob fulgrim to run them but can only use him with them. The rules are wordy but not complicated and is a much better bonus to have than the original EC’s +1 initiative; +1 str A 6/5+ DM roll Immunity to pinning, blind and concussive And a couple of “downsides” Cant react (not always necessary) Only fire snap shots Charges are disordered The bonuses and downsides coupled with the right units and upgrades are insanely powerful and can last from your own turn till the end of your next turn. As for legions imperialis all hype for it is dead within my local area, theyve took too long to release and keep shoving it under our noses “here’s something else you cant have yet” its got to the point of none of my group are gonna play it anymore

@TeAXIIIT13

9 ай бұрын

Also people need to remember for years we had Alan Bligh leading the charge gor heresy, after his passing nothing we got was ever going to live upto anything he did, just because things aren’t as good as they were doesnt mean its not good in its own right.

@jervoise

9 ай бұрын

A 6+ fnp after your being shot, and +1 strength is generally pretty Terrible for -1 attack, and the basically inability to use it on shooting units. It’s maybe not as some people say, but it’s nothing compared to being able to strike before your opponent, killing their models before they can strike you back.

@TeAXIIIT13

9 ай бұрын

@@jervoise the +1 initiative is only really useful for things like thunder hammers and power fists and is irrelevant when your models are equipped with certain weapons. your also ignoring half of the rule, the units are completely immune to morale for shooting when activated. A despoiler squad armed with power spears on the sergeant and any other model that can have them, a sublingual gland on the sergeant, you get a blind weapon potentially reducing your opponent to WS1 so your hitting on 2’s, your opponent on 6’s, the spears are striking before your opponents squad and your wounding on 2/3’s, youve then got a 5-6+ dm roll and it lasts through till the end of your next turn, as opposed to only working IF you charge.

@jervoise

9 ай бұрын

@@TeAXIIIT13 +I also helps when using any other weapon, such as power swords, as you can get hits off before your opponent with an additional rending. other legions can just buy apothecaries to get a better FnP, and they get that before the first time their shot not after, can still shoot at full BS when they do it, and still get an additional hit on the charge. Additionally, the sublingual glands are good, however they suffer from the issue that this opens the unit up to a return fire, and it has no guarantee it goes off. Ignoring pinning is probably the most useful part overall, but pinning is so-so in this edition, and tends to be focused on ranged units usually.

@TeAXIIIT13

9 ай бұрын

@@jervoise rending on power swords is only useful against sergeants and dreadnoughts as the ap3 is more than enough for most units. apothecaries take up points and elites slots so aren’t always a viable option and can be snipped out of units. Your opponent can easily make your charge disordered so you lose your additional attack anyway. The DM roll can be used on any unit as well, tanks/dreadnoughts and for dreads its always a 5+ as they are fearless. And again it can last from your own turn, though your opponents turn and thrn your own turn again, whereas the +1 initiative only lasts one round of combat if you manage to charge. Your combat units benefit greatly from it as they aren’t falling back or getting pinned while on the way to combat, whereas before they could be pinned or fall back on the way. And your shooting units have the option of benefiting from the rule if they choose too, and something like a sunkiller squad have enough shots that only firing snap shots is negligible. So your survival rate goes up, you cant be pinned or fall back and can do more damage against more opponents in combat, for me thats much better than possibly striking before my opponent when i can guarantee doing it.

Honestly warhammer is dead. The current rulebook that just came out destroyed my 10th edition army. I was playing in a tournament, and when that book came out? I had TWO units left. Everything else got removed from the playable list. For a tournament i was winning. I was setting up a game with the biggest other player there. My army list was suddenly not allowed to be played. Warhammer fantasy 2 hasnt got a good start. Those new sigmar models dont look Empire. They look generic ai knockoffs. I want the horus heresy to succeed, its just not being supported. Age of sigmar is dead. Warhammer underwolds beastgrave or whatever its called died on the vine. The models are nice, nobody here can figure out how to play it. Honestly, i could probably talk my FLGS into going back to playing older editions instead of 10th at this rate.

@blackbriargaming5483

9 ай бұрын

Played some great 3rd and 5th Ed 40k earlier in the year 😅

@Wanten-the-stormtrooper

9 ай бұрын

I'm actually thinking of reviving 4th edition (with the Chaos 3.5 codex) and just porting newer units into it as supplements, so this is perfect timing! As for Heresy, I might just end up playing 1.0 when possible and just porting the newer units into it, too.