After removing the preamp from my system (used the line level RCA LP Sub output for the past 12 years), went with the main amp's speaker outputs to include the Sub in the new configuration (sub has high level inputs). As Paul advocates, found my stand monitors playing full range Integrates Beautifully and Seamlessly with the sub (w/sub amp internal LP crossover set @60hz)! AMAZING tonality/timbre blend and total system balance with soundstage/imaging integration that says, "LIVE, I Am THERE"! 😀

One little thing left out... on my Dayton Audio 12" sub woofer, the high level in and out were common for each of the negative posts, and the positive posts each have a 220uF bi-polar 50V capacitor. These caps act as a high pass filter, for a 8 ohm speaker, filtering at ~90Hz. Therefore the out speakers do not deal with signals below 90 Hz.

My KEF Kube 12b’s are wonderful using the speaker level inputs. 😀

Great info, Thanks!

You forgot to mention craft beer capital of the country when speaking about North Carolina.

This is great! I'm still using the Polk Audio PSW650 (dual 10) for 22 years and even in the manual it recommends using the High Level (speaker wire). This is probably why I can also get away using Pure Direct on the receiver as the entire signal gets to the sub and is broken up in the sub as well. I'm expecting the sub not to live too much longer and will replace with another High Level option when needed. Thank you

@Crazytownmetal6

Ай бұрын

REL, SVS, Velodyne all are my favorites.

I use the high level with a 8 wpc SET tube amp. The added AB amp in my sub boosts the signal nicely to drive it. Tough to get bass on 8 watts.

Thanks

I agree , with my front stereo speakers in my mini home theatre, I prefer the sound of the high level input on my dual SVS SB 1000 vs the RCA ❤

To me, the biggest issue with most subs is latency. The DSP circuitry is slow enough. Add the typical mass of the majority of sub drivers and trying to get it them moving and you now have phase issues. You really need a proper high pass filter or at least a very good crossover setting to mitigate them.

Hi Paul, Grrreat Stuff!

It's David Suchet, and yes, he is an incredible actor. Check out the BBC's The Way We Live Now if you want to see a towering performance.

Your advice to use the speaker connections on the sub is noted, but some power amps like my Bel Canto Ref 1000s don't like it and I have to use the pre amp outputs to feed the sub.

🤗😎VERY USEFUL INFO.💚💚💚

David Suchet is the man in question.

Hi Paul !, I love your videos, I follow your channel from France (Montpellier) as an 52yo audiophile with electrotechnics engineering backgroung not sound engineering... Your videos educate us in this hobby we all love here ! B U T Pleeeeease, it’s sometimes a bit confusing. Would it be possible to have a little drawing or photo to help us to follow your explanations especially when it comes to connexions between elements. I admire the energy you show in the transmission of your knowledges and your passion for sound and electronic design. Best regards.

@davidfromamerica1871

Жыл бұрын

Do a KZread search on bi passing the subwoofer internal amplifier. Low level input’s.

@Vincent-ge1lr

Жыл бұрын

@@davidfromamerica1871 OK I will. Thanks!

Hi mr. PS. Sadly, I'll never be able to afford myself any PS product -but that's not the point of this channel for me. Even with my 2nd hand Denon, Onkyo and Mordaunt-Short equipment I'm able to get a really satisfying result thanks to all the information and lecturing on this cannel. I love people who don't hold their knowledge to themselves (I.e. 'Buy it if you want to know how') and give people a wealth of information and allow people to make due with wath they have. Many thanks.

Yeah something like a REL subwoofer (or sub-bass system as they like to call it) when connected over the high level connection, has in input impedance around 150,000 ohms. Compared to speakers that is essentially no load at all, even though it is using the higher voltage powered connection from the front right and front left.

Hey, So I'm also just getting into subwoofers and although I've seen most of your videos on how to connect them (I think), I still dont understand how it works. I currently have a NAD c162 preamp, NAD c272 power amp, a pair of Klipsch rp160 and an older SVS pb12-plus (I think the woofer might be overkill for my system, but I found all of this in various lofts and storages and nothing beats free) On the back of my power amp there are two sets of speaker outputs. Am I getting this right if I connect my subwoofers high level innput to the second pair of speaker outputs on the power amp, or should I connect the woofer to the first set of speaker outputs on the power amp and then connect the Klipsch speakers to the subwoofers high level output? If the latter is correct, how can I be sure that I'm not giving my Klipsch speakers to much power and end up blowing them? Thanks for your videos thus far anyways! They have helped me understand many things. Best of regards, Mons

speaker connection high voltage connection cuts it down to 2V-3Vs same as line input and it's better because it adds delay to the sub, always use thin gauge wire 22 gauge or less

Can anyone tell me what those two big black amp-looking boxes are in this video. Are these the new BHK 600 amps?

I'm wanting to play with a bi-amped system and my main amp doesn't have a line level output. I've determined that I can use the speaker outs to drive the second amp but of course need to bring that signal down. Does anyone know of a good DIY line level converter. I've looked and can't come up with anything.

Help! May I use a+b speaker setting from my Nad 3240int.amp as follows: A as output for mains, B as output for the sub? The mains are Kef R3's and the sub is a Mirage Stratta SS 1500 (made in 2000). After 33 years of use I replaced 14 caps on the NAD. I'm a 2 ch guy and no expert. Opinions, anyone?

So if I understand this correctly the powered sub would be run off the speaker taps of an amp? If I also understand this correctly, connecting the sub in this fashion would allow the main amp to influence the sound of the sub's amp? Is this correct? I am curious because I am using an old Heathkit AA-30 tube amp with EL84s on a modest but satisfying system with Klipsch Hereseys and a small powered sub woofer that is being fed through the tape loop of the preamp. Will I notice the sub sounding a little more "tube like" if I rewire it thrrough the speaker taps on the amp? Thanks and I love catching your videos with my morning cup of coffee before settling into my work day.

@jasontimothywells9895

Жыл бұрын

Pretty much , but if you have a preamp , why not use RCA splitter cables and running the main amp and subwoofer amp together on the preamp outputs ,

That goes against everything I have learned and heard in the past I have been using RCA instead of speaker outs forever. I have some newer subs that have a XLR inputs will have to try these.

what is the reason for some subwoofers (that provide high-level inputs) not to have/provide high-level outputs? Less production cost? Don't we lose part of the subwoofer crossover "work" when paired with some floor stands?

I have always thought the best reason for using active speakers was eliminating the need for a power amplifier.

@doosworld1901

Жыл бұрын

They have power amplifier(s) built into them. No amplification, no sound.

What is F we have a lyngdorf and have Löw and high Pass Filters?

If I have 2 pairs of speakers wired up in parallel to a budget NAD amplifier, would adding a couple of high level input subwoofers in series or parallel put any strange load on the amplifier ??? ..I think Paul just answered my question but I'm nervous about having potentially 16 speaker wires going into a stereo amp... 😅? !?

Volume control . If you use the speaker cable option ( High level imput) after you have set it up . will the sub automatically adjust volume according to main amp output? or will I always be adjusting 2 volumes? I dont own a proper sub.

How do I go about time alignment when I have two subs placed in my listening location for optimal performance connected via hi level inputs from my left and right front speakers as well as left and right surround speakers? All four are 3,2 meters away from my seat, but the subs are 0,4 meter away. I know that you should place both subs near the front speakers, then they are time aligned, but base performance in these spots isn't ideal, plus I couldn't run rear channels full range.

@slode1693

Жыл бұрын

I'd like to see a good answer to this, because I have a similar setup and with the sub on a side wall about 1/3 the distance from the main seat as the mains. With the sub set to the same distance as the mains the deep bass is "ahead" of the main's output and makes the sub stand out. Adjusting to correct time alignment makes the sub "disappear" like Paul talks about in so many other sub setup videos. I'll take that affect over hearing the "amps signature tone" in

Hi Paul, I have a question. Why are microphones able to cover the entire audio frequency range with just a single capsule but speakers requires multiple drivers to do the same thing? Another thought I had was, can microphones be further improved if we split them into multiple sensors like people do with HiFi speakers?

@andrzejjesswein7349

Жыл бұрын

Better comparison would be microphones to headphones, and these (mostly) have also only 1 driver. I guess if you wanted to capture tens or hundreds of Watts from your microphone instead of mWatts, it would have to be massive and consist of separate units capturing certain frequencies (just like in speakers). So the main difference here would be power amount being converted.

All that went over my head at the speed of sound..🙄😳

Hey Paul. You didn't talk about the frequency aspect on using the high level input. And what that does and it's adjustability. It's let's you cut OFF your selected low frequency to whatever speakers you have them hooked up to. In other words. It let's you use a much smaller bookshelf or satilight type speaker of higher quality since they are smaller a person can afford a higher quality without any bass loss since your using the subwoofer. I have a small system in my bedroom . Using a 10 inch Dayton sub. I am using Jamo c932s It sounds fantastic.

@roadfordays

Жыл бұрын

I think you have that backwards. Most subwoofers pass the full range of speaker-level connections to the speakers. Line level allows for bass management, with only high-pass frequencies being amplified by the source amp, reserving all the amp's power for those frequencies

Always thought that the low level input was much better.

But Paul, with high-level inputs can we also be assured that the sub's amp will not induce its own sonic signature into the sub's output? If not, then what's the use of retaining the main amp's signature if the sub amp is also inducing its own sonic signature? In such a case, is not the sub's resulting output some sort of hybrid of the main amp's and the sub amp's sonic signatures i.e. a box of chocolates? Also, as in the case of REL subs, can we be assured that REL's high-level input cables won't induce their own sonic signature much like a speaker cable or an interconnect? I don't recall reading any reviews on REL cables - can we also be assured that the REL high-level input cables' performance is above reproach i.e. are equal or superior to the speaker cables in use? So at this point and at the very least we potentially have the main amp's sonic signature + the sub amp's sonic signature + in this case REL's high-level inut cable's sonic signature + the main's speaker cables sonic signature. Come to think of it, how might the impact of adding unnecessary sonic signatures to the mix be much different that say, insisting on the sonic signature of an active pre-amp over a passive pre? Besides the above, aren/t these pretty much the opposite of a more simplified strategy? Simplified by eliminating as many unnecessary sonic signatures as possible? Actually, such a strategy can be rather impressive sonically when eliminating excess sonic signatures and across all frquencies - not just the bass regions. If true, doesn't any of this defeat or compromise the preservation of the main amp's sonic signature concept? Or is trying to retain the main amp's sonic signature at all costs truly worth the probable sonic compromises elsewhere? Seems to me the logic behind high-level connections is little more than a hypothetical dream (but only when taken on its face) that could never achieve its intended purpose i.e. retain the fidelity of the main amp's sonic signature without inducing other sonic signatures into the mix. And this certainly is not to say the REL's can't deliver superior or extremely musical bass. From what little I think I know and heard of REL subs, the potential for a superior bass seems pretty high. Even so is it not possible that REL's success might be in spite of its high-level inputs rather than because of? Sorry but the high-leve inputs argument seems just a bit difficult a concept for me to fathom every time I read about it watch a video about it. REL seems to have quite a reputation and quite a following. Even so, the logic just seems odd to me.

@jdavis234

Жыл бұрын

Your amp will have a significantly greater impact on the sound than any cable. This is one of the reasonings behind high level. In my experience, a rel blends better with high level from the amp vs out of the preamp.

@ToadStool942

Жыл бұрын

@@jdavis234 You mean, your amp AND your subwoofer's amp, don't you? With high-level inputs, it's not an either / or, it's a both / and situation, right? Why is it so easy to forget that every last amp bar none will induce its own sonic signature?

@jdavis234

Жыл бұрын

@@ToadStool942 Yes. What I said was that Rel (not talking about anything else) is better integrated with high level through the speaker amp than through a preamp.

@ToadStool942

Жыл бұрын

@@jdavis234 Understood. Of course you're certainly welcome to introduce as many sonic signatures as you wish into the mix. Just not sure why one would want to from a genuine performance perspective.

@shannonmiller5648

Жыл бұрын

@@ToadStool942 Dude I’m sorry but if you really think that the rel cable is going to introduce some audible sonic signature into the mix then you need to be educated as to what actually makes a difference in sound when it comes to cables. The only thing that makes a difference in sound in speaker cable is DC resistance in relation to gauge and length of run. That’s it. Even copper clad aluminum has zero audible difference in sound so long as it’s the appropriate gauge for a given length of run. That’s it. Unless the provided high level input cable is a hundred ft. run of 18awg cheap 💩 cable then the cable is the absolute last thing you need to worry about having any sort of impact, negative or otherwise, on the sound. Being Rel I’m sure it’s perfectly appropriate quality copper cable. As far as the cable having an effect on any other sub with high level inputs, well that’s entirely up to you because you supply the cable. I always run the same cable, of appropriate gauge in relation to length of run, to the sub as I run out of the sub to the speakers. Nothing fancy. Just short runs of 16awg monster XP. Sounds no different than more expensive 14 or even 12 gauge cable in this particular instance because in such short runs a heavy gauge cable isn’t warranted. Any other crap in relation to sonic signatures of speaker cable is age old snake oil. It makes absolutely zero difference whatsoever. Even if any of these supposed differences are in fact measurable with highly sensitive testing equipment the human ear is incapable of detecting such subtle, barely even measurable differences. Hopefully that useful bit of information helps shift future concerns towards areas that actually do matter in relation to detectable differences in sound quality

Ah.. Speaker Level is your preferred method and the impedance as seen by the main amp of the powered sub is so large it does not draw anything from the main amp... But I was also wondering if speaker efficiencies truly makes a difference in properly matching subs especially if one can properly match output levels between main speakers and sub. REL's Hunter seems to think so hence he has a couple of MK2's that supposedly addresses this... But it makes no sense to me.

@Peter56Persson

Жыл бұрын

The "sound" of the power-amp will be reaching both the speakers and the sub. That is not the case if you use the output (low level) that not goes trough the power-amp.

Unless you use rel subs their is no benefit with high level, i use my sub with sub out and its sounds amazing

My favourite is low level but we can't all bee the same.

I suspect you may need to be careful if one side of the high level input on the sub is connected to ground and your main amp is of a design that doesn't like one side of its output being grounded....

tone characteristic below 80hz ??? i thought tone character of an amp was above that. not many new subs have hi level speaker inputs. they only have one rca input.

@geddylee501

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, seems a nonsense topic

I never understood this. You want the subwoofer to take the characteristics of the systems amplifier but doesn’t the subwoofer have its own amplifier that would negate that? Wouldn’t the tonal characteristics be of the subwoofer’s amplifier and not the systems?

@martindennis9531

Жыл бұрын

Just a guess here but I'm thinking the signal to the subwoofer would be akin to the signal to your power amplifier from your preamp. The power amp amplifies the character of your preamp just like the subwoofer amp would amplify the character of the high level signal being fed to it (the combo of your pre and power amps). Again, just a guess. I've wondered the same thing.

@kabes-us

Жыл бұрын

@@martindennis9531 You know what, that is the best reasoning I’ve ever heard.

@SethHollingshead

7 ай бұрын

Yea exactly

@cyclistman6358

4 ай бұрын

Ok interesting points. But IMO the quality and characteristics of the input signal into any electronic device will always influence the quality and characteristics of the out put signal. In my dedicated two channel system I’ve been running stereo sealed subs, fed by speaker level inputs for years with fantastic results. I don’t think the main amps signature has taken over completely because the subs amp will naturally be dominant in shaping the subs sound. But speaker level inputs I feel adds some of the main amps flavor to the subs sound and therefore increases the potential for a smoother blend between the main speakers and subs and a more unified sonic presentation overall. Integrating subs with main speakers is tricky and time consuming. But when done right, they just add so much more to the sound. Not just the hard hits but the subtle low frequencies that define the space of the recording environment. Or give the low registers of a piano weight and texture. Boomy bass makes me crazy. But tight, low, accurate and well balanced bass is just a necessity for my ears and audio experience.

Said easily, a high level input has a very high input impedance which results in ultra low power draw

"Amp character" is a euphemism for distortion, dynamic compression, noise, and uneven frequency response. You sure your main amp is flat down to 15 Hz? You sure it passes a signal with absolutely zero dynamic compression at high volumes? You sure it has zero added noise? You sure the amplified signal is 100% free of added distortion? Line level connections exist for the sole purpose of avoiding all those problems. Run test tones through the next REL you come across and see what it's doing below 30 Hz. The REL I owned started to lose output below 50 Hz, and couldn't reproduce anything below 30. Everything below that just came out as a honking distorted 80 Hz overtone. REL doesn't really make subwoofers. They make lightly powered bass enhancers for people with all-analog stereo systems running speakers with poor bass performance and preamps that don't have volume-controlled line outputs. Those people tend to be elitists, so for marketing purposes REL has to spin the speaker-level connection as somehow preferable or superior. It most definitely is not, but it wouldn't be a good marketing pitch to say "this product will make your system sound slightly less like a tin-can telephone, given your limited options to improve it." Subwoofers are something that can play flat perceived volume in the room to 20 Hz or below. Note that playing a flat perceived volume actually requires significantly boosted amp power as frequency drops. That's why a 1500 watt RMS sub with DSP to flatten in-room response and control the movement of the driver might not actually be overkill for an otherwise modestly powered system, and why a REL "sub" with 300 watts and flat output only from 50-80 Hz doesn't do the job. Of course if all you listen to is jazz trios with zero meaningful content below 80 Hz, all of this is moot. But modern metal and EDM have root bass frequencies hitting 20 Hz, and of course movies regularly have content below that.

The question wasn't about subwoofers but also about active main speakers...What do we do with that?

just to play devil's advocate here... you mentioned the use of resistors on the hi-level inputs to reduce the amplified signal level back to a 'low level' signal. Wouldn't that impart some degradation in the signal? Another point, all amplifiers have measurable THD, the better quality the amplifier is, the lower the THD but if you're adding any kind of distortion to the signal (no matter how low), then lowering the signal down with resistors, then re-amplify it again, you're degrading the integrity of the signal twice. It makes no sense that this would sound 'better' than using the dedicated line level output on the amplifier to go directly to the low level input on the sub, unless it somehow improves the latency between the speakers and sub.

This supposes that the power amp has the sounds characteristics and the sub amp doesn't. This makes no sense, and you are saying you amplify this low level signal through the main system power amp, then cut it in the sub power amp circuit then we amplify again. The additional time and potential SNR reduction doesn't matter, but the sound characteristic of the power amp does. Sorry I just dont buy it, I suspect it is related to the impedance and drive by of the pre-amp not some magic spice of the power amp in the two channel part. If you said that the power amp in the sub was designed to match the characteristics of the main system and your sub matched the characteristics of your power amp I could understand if this was in the chain like a biamped system driven by the same pre-amp. I am not saying that connecting this way for two channel is not possibly better but the reason isn't this. You also have a problem if you want to DSP the sub. Surely understanding what could be improved when not needing to put the signal through an additional amplifier, cut it in a resistor network and probably run through more horrible coupling caps, then amplify again is a better focus ?

If you're trying to go green, why do you print your emails on paper? Why not read it off of a phone or tablet?

@Jorge-Fernandez-Lopez

Жыл бұрын

Are phones or tablets "greener" or more socially acceptable (Coltan slavery) ? What would happen to sustainable forest land that can sell their goods while "greener" people buy fake furniture (with their polluting phones) made from stolen timber or even unsustainable "forest" cut by slaves ?

@RCVideo-dh8cs

Жыл бұрын

His paper! His printer! His personal preference!

@WhiteOutie2010

Жыл бұрын

Did you come here to watch great audiophile videos or be an effin Karen and point out everything you see wrong? If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.

@endrizo

Жыл бұрын

@@RCVideo-dh8cs wrong. not his trash but everybodys trash

@georgemoraleswork

Жыл бұрын

Haha such a Karen thing to say, chill Queen.

All this Vanilla crap everyone knows. . ACTUALLY, we would like to know the "Difference" between an LFE signal from an AV Amplifier, AND the Standard Crossover Signal in a conventional set-up.

I'm sorry but I prefer low level inputs 🥹.... and for good reason too.... A lot of stereo amplifiers don't really deliver a lot of subsonic grunt .. they won't go from DC to 100KHz !! Most tail off at around 20-25Hz not to mention a low frequency phase shift also . This is no damn good for true subwoofer stuff at all ... so going direct to the flat low level signal source is far better and far more linear and has much better dynamics too. You don't want to amplify the shortcomings of a struggling stereo amplifier surely?