Actually HEMA "armour" makes perfectly good sense. Firstly, almost all HEMA practice, and specifically swordsmanship, is "unarmored" swordsmanship. So the light gear is not to resample armour, but protection from not getting seriously injured. Full armour will make you move differently, and certainly fight very differently, especially with swords, which would have a very limited effect on full plate armour. Therefore, fencing masks, and not helmets. So what makes the least sense, is your comparison of HEMA protective gear, to actual armour, since its unarmored swordsmanship.

@tristunalekzander5608

5 жыл бұрын

If you are afraid of hitting your opponent too hard, you are not fighting to your full potential, that should never have to be a problem in competitive events.

@jamesdurfee4379

4 жыл бұрын

​@@tristunalekzander5608 But it will always be a problem, because people can always hit excesivly hard, so that you will get injured through the protection you have on. You could wear full plate armor, but then you aren't training unarmored combat. However, speed and force are not actually as related as you would think, so you can actually move very fast, without actually hitting that hard.

@stickthesecond5085

4 жыл бұрын

nah mate padded armour is still armour therefore your still practicing in armour wearing thin strips of metal that don't impede your movement shouldn't matter in the end of the day if it saves your ass while not impeding movement then does it matter ?

@andriesbrouwersurf

4 жыл бұрын

You can make armour lighter and more protective so as a person that wears an unnecessarily heavy and hot gambeson for HEMA I wonder why we aren’t making gear better. Seems like stuck in the mud thinking to me.

@shaundouglas2057

3 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/iXyXyat6dJieY6Q.html Actually this makes far more sense.

Then why don’t we hear constantly about broken ribs in HEMA? Especially from the longsword guys?

I think this is a valid idea. That being said, you can buy a rigid plastic chest protector for like $30, and wear it over a fencing jacket (even just a sport-fencing one, although a little extra padding is nice). Then get some rigid protection for your forearms, elbows, neck, collarbones, groin, shins and knees. Then buy/make something to protect the gap in the back of your fencing mask. Then shell out on some decent gauntlets, like the SPES heavies, or Neyman, or maybe the Konig glove if it ends up being good, or maybe get some steel Wisby gauntlets. Then you can fight with steel. The thing is that not every part of the body needs the same level of protection. You need rigid protection over any joint or prominent bone, because even blunt swords do bad things when they hit hard bones. Over fat/muscle, you really just need something puncture-resistant. I've taken some hard hits to my biceps and thighs with minimal protection over them. It leaves a bruise, nothing else.

Big hint for all the "too hot doesn't breathe" complaints, simply get a wicking microfiber long sleeve shirt and wear under it. Then all you have to do is open the top and make for an airflow through it. Then, stay hydrated. End of problem. I live (and fence) in a high humidity & heat area in the summer. Now, if you don't like the way it takes impacts (and I haven't seen a problem using the first jacket he used), then make "pickle barrel" or laminate plastic armor to put on top. Too easy. I've taken full blows in that jacket and it stings, but no bruising to speak of, mainly because I don't stand there to allow baseball bat blows to hit. The problem with any of the heavier stuff, when learning or teaching using positive pressure for scoring hits, you literally cannot feel most of the blows. Finally, using a melon? How silly. My ribs are a whole LOT tougher than a silly melon you can split with a blunt steel blade. I will agree that a one piece of the quality of the SPES jacket would be nice, as would be some inserts for plates.

Thank god we have the AP Spes jacket so we dont have to look like larpers.

@mattmanbrownbro

8 жыл бұрын

And now, we have Superior Fencing Gear, as well as Neyman Fencing and others besides just SPES.

@ravbright

8 жыл бұрын

+spndrp After reading some comments from those who don't want to look like "Larpers," I don't quite understand the fear. No one in my area has any idea what Larp is, its obvious that we are not the same thing even to the untrained eye, and finally we are a historical European martial art and as such we shouldn't be afraid of being "historical." In the Asian arts they war traditional uniforms i.e. dobok, gi, and the skirt thing in Kendo and Kenjuitsu. Is it bizarre then that we should have a more historical type of attire in HEMA? Another consideration is that the historical look is exactly what people like. For example, in a public setting if you have a HEMA demonstration occurring between a couple guys with longswords and dressed in typical Spes jackets and fencing masks the crowd reaction is always the same, which is typicallly a "meh" and they move on. However when you have a couple guys demonstrating full armored combat akin to American Knights (and other groups) a crowd forms eager to watch. Why is this the case? Because HEMA is boring to outsiders but a duel that is visually historical and just plain awesome is way more exciting. So my point is that HEMA is hurting itself by trying to avoid its historical basis in every manner except the sword techniques themselves.

@stickthesecond5085

4 жыл бұрын

yeah how dare we look like men of old when we can look like black ninja's practicing with non japanese weapons like dude who the fuck cares. boxers look like naked dude's wearing big under wear, wrestlers wear spandex and judo practitioners wear fucking pajamas. no one gives a fuck or rather no one SHOULD give a fuck

There's a lot going on here, so I'll just review the points I expect to see people argue. 1) Argument for Control 2) Argument for separation of Unarmored versus Armored Fencing 3) Looking-Like-Larpers-phobia 4) The "Well How Did They Do It" Speculation Zone It is an interesting point, though. I know a guy with lots of access to hard plastic, so it wouldn't be hard to make/design a coat of plates. TO IAN LASPINA'S CHANNEL FOR HISTORICAL INSPIRATION!

Do you have any videos on how to make these armor pieces?

This is quite interesting. You're basically recommending a Mongolian hatanga degel!

Where did you get the coat of plates?

No thanks. I don't want my windpipe crushed if I get stabbed in the neck.

@owlblocksdavid4955

7 жыл бұрын

Use a gorget..?

@levifontaine8186

6 жыл бұрын

I wear a gorget with a scarf underneath and ayone who doesn't is asking for disaster.

How large are the plates in your coat of plates?

Well i got one of the lightest hema jackets. wearing plastron under it for extra protection but i honestly hate having to thick garment during hema, sure it hurts a lot more but it also teaches me i suck and should get better at parrying.

Where did you get that coat of plates that you tested?

Why didnt use high tech armor with stab resist and cover all part,oops that armor set didnt exit,lol.

Where did you get the elbow cops?

please.Can you link the maker of that clothes and the gorget.

Something important to note about helmets is concussive blows and pressure on the neck. In football, the NFL is going through a lot of problems because of the brain damage caused by concussions. Even small concussions can cause brain damage. That said, I don't think the beefed up fencing mask will be enough protection. When our first generation HEMA people get to old age, we may find them damaged. I also don't think a simple steel bit slipped over the top of the head will be enough to stop concussive blows, or to arrest force on the neck. You could make an argument about deflection, but I don't think that stands, since it's not penetration we're worried about with the neck. It's the transfer of force into the small supporting muscles and fragile equipment. Blows on the top of the head can impact pretty hard on the neck. Football players again have problems with spines, partially because of hits on the head. People talk about the force of football impacts being extremely violent, akin to car crashes. I wonder what sort of impactive force a Longsword is able to hit with. I also wonder how that affects the neck and brain. It would certainly be a good set of data to have, so we can develop better protective equipment. I would also wager that Longswords hit really hard. I also don't think that re-enactor gear is the way to go. The people in historic periods before ours didn't have the accurate understanding of long term injuries that we have now. Especially in regards to brain damage. Also the idea of dressing in tons of hot steel and leather really doesn't appeal to me. Plastic exists, and is cheaper, lighter, and for this purpose, I argue superior to steel. If you put plastic underneath tough padding, it should be every bit as good as the metal. And with modern highly durable cloths like kevlar, protective against penetrations. Something like a good nylon, or perhaps ABS plastic, would suffice.

@williamjohnson476

8 жыл бұрын

I did a brief pendulum study for thrusting short bayoneted rifles. I had a historical reenactor that did bayonet drilling occasionally who could hit over 24,000 N. I think the super kick recorded on Fight Science was about 14,000N. Now this was with the 45.5" bayonet trainer www.woodenswords.com/USMC_Mokuju_Bayonet_Trainer_45_5_116cm_p/bayonet.htm . I feel as though the extra time for accelerating a cut may facilitate even greater force. Not to mention many two handed weapons are longer than my modern firearm lengthed bayonet simulator, meaning that they having a longer moment arm. Thus, they are multiplied even more (Torque= Force * Moment Arm Length).

@7dayspking

4 жыл бұрын

I know the comment is old but to answer your question longsword hits are not comparatively as violent as football impacts. A good indicator for the danger is how many people are being knocked out, knocked down or getting consistent concussions. Plastic and padding is not as good as steel. Something you'd probably only begin to notice if you tried taking a plastic kit to a HMB event where they really hit each other.

@7dayspking

4 жыл бұрын

@@williamjohnson476 Fight science is nonsense, thrusts hit very differently from cuts. Thrusts allow for great leverage from the body, cuts have very poor leverage. Cuts vs thrusts is essentially speed vs power. The length of weapons reduces rather than aids the force of an impact. In the case of weapons you're the pivot point.

@williamjohnson476

3 жыл бұрын

​@@7dayspking Sorry, I am just checking in on this now, it has been quite a bit. Fight science does have issues, however they did give a measurement which should give us a ballpark estimate for the order of magnitude of a full body kick, just to put the weapons force into perspective. Would you mind elaborating on the weapons length reducing impact, and the cut vs thrust forces? I would love to read some of the papers on it. I had mostly looked at point work at the time as it was more readily available in the literature.

Love that wine glass. Anybody know where I can get those?

How long did it take to make the The Highland Coutn?

Interesting video, coming from a hot area also and having to listen to my wife complain about all my bruises all the time I have been thinking along the same lines regarding HEMA wear. Was looking at what historically was used in hot countries and was thinking about laminar armour but the plates would be much easier to make.

I saw the lady @ 2:32 at Blacktown Medieval fayre!

Yep, I learned it the hard way when you hit me twice in the same spot (upper left thigh) at the Lonin Sword and Buckler workshop.

Those coat of plates are completely non historical.

@magicalframe9441

4 жыл бұрын

Brigandine

@frankheninja1

Жыл бұрын

So is a modern HEMA gambeson.

Could you perhaps make a video later in the year on how to make a Highland Coutn?

@korg20000bc

8 жыл бұрын

Paul's article on making a couton is here: stoccata.org/index.php/information-for-students/resources/articles/24-the-highland-coutn

HEMA is supposed to simulate unarmoured combat\fighting\dueling. If you wear armour, you're not really doing HEMA. Which isn't necessarily bad, just different.

@jonathankyle963

7 жыл бұрын

*Context*

@londiniumarmoury7037

6 жыл бұрын

Gilgilius not all hema manuals depict unarmored fighting, many depict full armoured combat. For example why would a manual teaching you how to half sword be depicting an unarmored half sword technique, who half swords vs a guy wearing no armour?

The problem with what you present is that it is not a fencing gear. It is fucking armor. A gambeson with 17 layers of cloth is, for all intents and purposes, as good as mail armor or plate armor. Sure it degrades faster from sharp weapons, but while it has its integrity, it offers as muh protection as a complete set of armor. You can't just compare that to a thick jacket. I don't do HEMA (it has no actual culture in my country, so I couldn't even if I wanted to), but basic concepts, I can understand. For example, if heat is an issue, don't open up the armpit, but clamp the armor together with open rivets (I don't know the name of it, something like what is used in shoes, but sturdier). Also, you mention that is offers less protection, well, fencing is about technique, now cutting the opponent in half. If he/she doesn't feel the hit, there is nothing learns, he/she will just keep doing it wrong. I did another form of martial art, it was the same case there. Furthermore, you don't leave gaps at the armpit on a padding/gambeson. Why not? Because it is, in a fight to the death, your last line of defence. Sure, you can move more freely, but if someone stabs or cuts you there, you are done. Generally, a padding was worn under the plate to COMPLEMENT its flaws concerning the lack of armpit protection. Finally the second jacket you've shown, that is not historically accurate or anything... That is just too big for the kid.

Im actually experiencing the same thing right now. Because I also build armor and also just started HEMA. And im also using brigandine style armor and I never get hurt :D

That moment you are trying to explain something and the wind talks over you.

I've noticed this insecurity HEMA people have towards being mistaken for Larpers. Taking yourselves way to seriously lol, the casual observer still thinks you're just as nerdy. Get over it, focus on your training.

@MaxTheGamingMan

7 жыл бұрын

THIS

@aurourus6894

7 жыл бұрын

Yea, that's because people don't want to look like a fucking pine cone while fighting. Also hema armor gives you better protection in all terms.

@robertusaugustus2003

6 жыл бұрын

I agree, a lot of people take not looking like larpers way too seriously. The school i go to has a mix of more traditional medieval style kit, but for our competitions we use the more modern stuff.

I'm trying to figure out why people are trying to reinvent armour at all. You have several centuries of very well designed, highly mobile, and very effective armor options....... use one.

@Boruta46

7 жыл бұрын

Low cost using modern materials ?

Can you link the maker of that steel mask?

@AidanBlake

8 жыл бұрын

+jerome96114 www.thatguysproducts.com/gallery.html

@jerome96114

8 жыл бұрын

Aidan Blake Thanks!

? whats with all the complaints of being a hipster hema guy i don't see how wearing thin metal plates is different from wearing a big jacket that is essentially a gambesson BOTH OF WHICH ARE ARMOUR. if you wan't the wine about movement i got news for you its called a coat of plates not a solid plate also these are thin flat bits of metal i don't see why weight would be a concern. soft padding kind of sucks sometimes and i think using thin bits of metal doesn't sound so bad. perhaps in the future we could just use plastic

cringe

@shaundouglas2057

3 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/iXyXyat6dJieY6Q.html

to much armour ,is why there are double hits, ie no fear of weapon

yeah the AP V2 is good for synthetique use,not steal.

good cup

As far as I know the fencing manuals on which HEMA bases on come from a time where swordfighting on the battlefield became obsolete due to gunpowder. It became a sport, rather than a battle preparation. I like your input though, you don't deserve the dislikes.

And ya, nope, pretty confident that my 800N SPES hussar set can dramatically outperform your custom stuff. Though I will acknowledge that your stuff is reasonably good. Kudos overall.

Well given that we are doing unarmored fighting, using something like a brigandine doesn't exactly help. If you can't feel the hits, there's no learning because you should at least have some feeling of being hit, just with the damage as minimized as possible. Our head protection definitely could use improvement, true, because head injuries aren't something you should mess around with but advocating we wear heavier and even more cumbersome protection gear for the body more than what we already have, is kinda counterproductive for something trying to simulate unarmored fighting. Pain, as long as it's not indicative of some kind of major wound, can be helpful in this case. You come off like some sort of outcast HEMA hipster who basically disagrees with everything in modern HEMA.

@londiniumarmoury7037

6 жыл бұрын

Redman A I personally dont mind what armour my opponents wear, let this guy wear his armour. I see some guys spar barefoot as well, if they take the risk its on them.

There is absolutely no reason to do this. We have a wide variance in protection options. Also, can we stop pretending that cantalopes and watermelons are a good analog for people? They just aren't. I've been zwerked in the ribs many times and yeah, it hurts but no, I'm not injured.

@shaundouglas2057

3 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/iXyXyat6dJieY6Q.html The reasons to do this seem very valid to me after seeing the end result.

Uhm... I'm not against adult-themed glassware and normally I'd watch all the way through before offering comment, but just a quick suggestion: maybe reconsider the image you present with a naked lady taking up a quarter of the starting frame. See, I know Dave Rawlings has his signature teacup, but that's a little different. I mean, maybe it's a classy replica of something, but still, good to make sure you don't send messages you don't want to. I'll watch anyway of course just in case it's used to demonstrate a point in some way. Maybe put her in a little fencing jacket. Oh that would be so cute!

@chaos_omega

6 жыл бұрын

It's not a naked lady. It's a glass modeled after the female form. Would you cover up the Venus de Milo because it could possibly offend someone? There's nothing pornographic about it, it's just a representation of a female human's natural state.

I feel like this guy is the hipster HEMA guy every mainstream thing in HEMA seems to grind his gears XD

@shaundouglas2057

3 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/iXyXyat6dJieY6Q.html Any other stupid comments ya want to add now ya twit?

Cool mal jemand deutsches in dem Gebiet

haha needless to say that is a completely different approach, well i can understand your point but i also think your solutions are flawed

@shaundouglas2057

3 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/iXyXyat6dJieY6Q.html Nothing flawed about this.

Even the helmets are completely wrong, the armor should resemble highly advanced knights armor but made from lightweight plastic. Good armor should allow full range of movement. You are not even learning good technique if you are afraid of hitting your opponent too hard. If I wear less armor, it is unfair to my opponent because he will be afraid of seriously injuring me, but If I wear more armor, he will fight better because he is not afraid. There should be regulations where both fighters are _required_ to wear _full_ body armor of the type mentioned above that currently does not exist.

My club has never hit lightly, we hit hard.

It’s sucks

@shaundouglas2057

3 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/iXyXyat6dJieY6Q.html No it does not suck.