I'm not the most experienced when it comes to espresso but as long as the kettle is boiling my Robot is ready to go. I've been working with her for well over a year and clean up takes less then 10 seconds. It seems like the Flair 58 might be a little more tedious with clean up since there are more parts involved. IMHO both of these manual machines would be awesome to own and I'm just happy to be honing my skills with every shot. I can go for another double shot now.

@endoalley680

3 жыл бұрын

How do you pre heat with the Robot?

@gabesolo5864

3 жыл бұрын

@@endoalley680 I leave the portafilter hovering in my kettle as it boils. The hole is just wide enough to keep it from falling in and the steam ends up heating the portafilter...I've come to realize that preheating isn't necessary all the time though so don't be afraid to experiment.

@thepatternforms859

2 жыл бұрын

flair 58 has an actual 58 mm PF with better shots, plus preheating, plus easy lever pull and aesthetics - its flair for me!

@Cenot4ph

2 жыл бұрын

it's obvious the workflow for the 58 is much improved, automatic heating of the brewchamber and the portafilter allows for subsequent shots, there's no contest here.

@rjejames28

Жыл бұрын

@@Cenot4ph the robot is a wonderful machine, I own one it's a joy to use. I'm sure the flair is to but don't underestimate it. Where it shines to me easy workflow, super easy cleanup, very simple machine so maintenance is a breeze. Medium and dark roast espresso there is no need to preheat, and shots taste wonderful.

2 things i dont like about F58: - non standard oring/gasket/seal (for this price i need better parts availability) - plasticky electronic (at least make it waterproof)

Robot owner here. I love the machine, but agree that the handles can be painful without the “hands” upgrade. The machine should have a version that comes with both the self-leveling tamper and the hands IMHO. I have both of those upgrades and they make a big difference. I also find the pressure gauge difficult to see when pulling shots, but I do appreciate that the size of it is appropriately scaled to the machine. What I love about the Robot is the aesthetics and simplicity. It looks great on a countertop, pulling shots is FAST, there are fewer parts to clean, and preheating can be as simple as placing the portafilter on top of the kettle as it heats up. It’s definitely personal preference, but aesthetically the flair just looks a little odd.

@WilliamMighty

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, the direction of the pressure gauge is annoying. Someone actually made a simple conversion kit to install the pressure gauge face up. Albeit I am not sure it’s available for sale.

@error.418

Жыл бұрын

You can mount the gauge to the rear facing up. Much nicer. There are instructions for this online.

@back_to_the_bike8820

7 ай бұрын

I've got into the habit of turning the robot so that the gauge is facing outwards, not towards me, and I lean forward to read the pressure. I've stuck adhesive on the gauge so that only my pressure range (6 to 9 bar) is visible.

Barista Tingles😂

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

They matter! Haha

Its not a Sprometheus video without that subtle zoom to his face 🤣

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

Haha trying to add some movement in there somewhere to keep your attention between coffee shots. I promise I’m working on some new camera stuff.

@JoshuaGeow

3 жыл бұрын

@@Sprometheus Trust me when I say that most people have been nothing but attentive to everything you say in a video. Haha!

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

@@JoshuaGeow haha, I need to start doing deepfakes as Tom Cruise or something

@JoshuaGeow

3 жыл бұрын

@@Sprometheus 🤣🤣🤣 why not !

@uw4ntsum342

3 жыл бұрын

@@Sprometheus This might be an individual preference but a wide shot including body language and hand movement could be a thing to consider. To me, the close up gets a bit intense at times.

Excellent video as usual! I’m concerned with the massive price increases in the Flair line…I thought part of their appeal was the price point-espresso quality factor. In the $500 range they’re subjecting themselves to competition from all sorts of competent machines, and it just seems like they’re getting greedy. Oh and next up are we getting treated to a La Pavoni/Elektra head to head?!?!

I'm LOVING the workflow of the 58! I don’t have experience with the robot, but I’m also not into the aesthetic. I love the design choice with the matte black and wood of the Flair 58.

Well now I want a Flair 58… I never knew that this style of machines were made!

I don't find the Robot handles bothersome. The feel of the portafilter is fine; I like that there is no wood to worry about. I do wish there were more vertical and horizontal space under the portafilter.

@ericpmoss

3 жыл бұрын

Cafelat sells "dumbbells" or "donuts" that make the handles a lot more comfortable.

how does it compare to similar priced espresso machine though?

Robot looks like a 1950’s kitchen appliance. Flair looks like it was designed for guys who like monster trucks.

Great comparison! I’m thinking of upgrading my Silvia (owned since 2009) to a machine with flow control. The Lelit Bianca is still top of my list, but the Flair range has thrown a spanner in the works! And that spanner is much easier on the pocket! And furthermore, the 58 with its black body and wood accents is a good visual match for the black Niche Zero I’ve had for a couple of months! Hmmmmm!

Thanks for the video!

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

For sure thanks for watching!

Pulled the trigger bro 58 ftw! Thanks as always 🙏😇

How do they compare regarding the number of scales that fit underneath?

Thank you for this excellent video I love lever machines and someday I will take a strega or a Cremina My question is, how the quality of the cup compares to a pump machine in the range of 1000-1500€?

What's your thoughts on the Timemore kettle?

great video! I actually find the Robot workflow faster (although less intuitive to begin with) vs the flair range. It’s nice to own a nod to a piece of coffee and design history as well since it’s based off of the Faema Faemina Baby from the 1950s! p.s for the robot “hands” Cafelat sell metal “mitten” addons, waaaay more comfortable!

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you my friend! I get that for sure, and I’m holding onto my Robot and giving away my 58 regardless of this outcome, I have seen the mittens, but I feel like they should just be built with them. The claw hands don’t work well haha.

@guitarjoel717

3 жыл бұрын

@@Sprometheus just to add into the overall discussion (I’m disclaiming up front that I’m not wanting to be like, argumentative or adversarial here!) I, too, felt similar to you, and same goes for the “self leveling tamper;” however, I read what I thought was a thoughtful and reasonable response on this from Paul (the maker of the ‘bot). I’m paraphrasing; but the idea was that, certain choices were made to enable functionality within a certain price point. There are thousands of people (and I was one of them) who are perfectly happy with the standard robot arms/hands and default tamper. I only splurged for the “mittens” and self leveling tamper because I got a little Christmas bonus at work and wanted to splurge. I guess the takeaway is, there could always be ways to add on, improve incrementally, etc., but every choice has a cost, so the decision was made to keep the entry price as low as possible while still allowing foundational espresso-making functionality. And those who want extras, or who maybe use the robot as a daily driver for their beach-side espresso cart (for real!) might want to “upgrade.” Again, I’m not trying to argue or be a punk here. Just touching on what I think might be Paul’s response to the comment that certain things should or shouldn’t be part of the “default robot package.” Thanks for the video, and happy Friday!

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

@@guitarjoel717 not argumentative at all, this is the kind of response I love! I get that, and those design choices I’m Sure make sense to the bottomless line. I’ve never designed or invented something so I have no clue what goes into it, but just speaking purely from my perspective as a user I just found some small issues. Of course they don’t ruin anything, still makes great espresso and that’s what it’s designed to do. I have nothing but respect for Paul at Cafelat, that level of hand craftsmanship is a rare thing these days. Anyway, thanks for watching and the thoughtful comment my friend!

@guitarjoel717

3 жыл бұрын

@@Sprometheus I watch your videos every week, always look forward to them 😊 not enough good coffee content on KZread… thanks for being one of my favorite coffee Subject Matter Experts/informed opiners 😉 cheers!

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

@@guitarjoel717 thank you my friend I appreciate that. It’s nice to hear. After two plus years of weekly uploads it hasn’t gotten easier, and getting some positive feedback definitely helps keep me motivated.

I've been going back and forth on these and while i really want the flair 58, i think its just too big for my counter..

You can add after market knobs for the Robot handles. I like them.

@kubectlgetpo

3 жыл бұрын

That makes it bad design to start with

@endoalley680

3 жыл бұрын

@@kubectlgetpo It just looks like and feels like something is missing without them. But with the knobs all seems right. I think they should come with the stock setup.

@RPPification

3 ай бұрын

@@kubectlgetpo I agree. But I'd also take anything that produces great results and is a little rough around the edges but can be fixed with modding, than something that's just not fitting my preferences (Flair's plastic heating component controls). If flair made their heating component controls integrated into the body, or made their X version ok without preheating, then I think I would rather take that over Robot.

I have and enjoy the Robot, but the handles definitely leave something to be desired. I got the “knob” upgrades and it makes a big difference. That said, I think I’d prefer the 58 if I needed to make more shots; the robot’s reset is kinda clunky.

I've been using the Robot for 5 years now. It's a minimalist masterpiece. With the Robot, I love how the portafilter is centered in the chassis so pulling a shot keeps the Robot stable. Not so with the Flair. With the Robot every 6 months or so I replace the silicone gasket but that's it. It takes a minute. The Robot works flawlessly. The only improvement would be to move the pressure gauge behind the Robot facing upwards. The Flair's electronics and plastic bits give me a headache. More to go wrong down the line. After all of these years I'm still astonished with the Robot. "How do you improve a spoon?"

@Daumex

Жыл бұрын

Why are you replacing the gasket so often? Is it breaking, or are you just replacing it on your own? I've had a Flair Pro 2 for at least 2 years now, and it's still on the original gasket that came with it.

Why does the flair need a screen?( The disc that was put over the after it was tamped)

The biggest advantage of Flare58 is that it can use a variety of baskets and tools, but I don’t know what’s better than robots. 58 Miri Basket is similar in taste, and it is more powerful to use two hands than one hand It is more stable, and preheating is not inconvenient because it only needs to pour hot water once. The robot is more convenient even if only the washing or the extraction process is compared. Manual machines seem to have a clear limit to manual machines.

I asked you for this video like 100 times and it finally dropped and I totally missed it lmao until now. Thanks 🙏🏻

i am new to all these, may i know what are the possible tools to be used for the Flair 58? Since alot of ppl say this is the advantage of using a true 58 portfilter

@TalZion

2 жыл бұрын

Leveling or calibrated tampers, distributors, WDT tools (some would work with the robot, but products like duomo the eight don't).

Hola, creo que he visto muchos de tus videos donde hablas de las Flair. Yo tengo mi Flair desde hace 2 años aproximadamente y sinceramente estoy fascinado con ella.. He visto algunos comparativos entre Flair y Robot y al parecer siempre ha salido victoriosa la Flair. Como no tengo dinero para comprar la Robot pues seguiré feliz con mi Flair y espero que algún día se me haga adquirir la Flair 58 (que por cierto, difiero de tí, su diseño está CHINGONSÍSIMO). Saludos

Yes I agree with what you presented here. 👍

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks Mark, I appreciate that and for watching! Cheers

Both make great espresso. The Robot is more beautiful. But the Flair 58 is more natural to push the lever. Down instead from the side. And the Flair you can use with one arm. I have broken arm just right now and I can not use the Robot. But I could use the Flair. The Flair is too expensive.

By more visceral and substantial, what do you mean? Does it mean you feel better to use the flair 58 and think you love the espresso of it more?

Great video, thanks. For me a device without cables and plugs, electronics is way more elegant. So good to hear a non-electric version is planned.

a little misleading with the prices when you include the screen for the 58 which it doesn't come with.

Nice review.i think that the prices are over exaggerated for those machines when,for example,a gaggia pro is 400 bucks.what do you think?

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

Well, that’s a tough one. The robot for instance is handmade. The Flair probably had some R&D costs to recoup. So it’s hard to begrudge them the price they’re asking. But the Gaggia is in a different place altogether considering it’s pump driven and steam capable. In the end it’s like comparing apples to oranges. At least in my mind.

Since you done this video i bought a Cafelat Robot and i am very happy with the results, but can you do a video about the Linea Mini vs Cafelat Robot?

thank you so much! your previous video on the flair vs the rokk helped me decide to buy a flair!

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

Happy help! Thanks for watching my friend!

Someone should do a comparison of the brew water temps (just prior to pulling a shot) between the 58 with no preheat vs the Robot. One huge advantage of the Robot is the relatively small amount of heat loss in the basket / brew chamber, as opposed to the massive heat sink of the 58. With medium and medium-dark roasts the Robot produces outstanding shots with no preheating. No way could I get the same results with my Flair Pro 2 without preheat. And the 58 looks like it would steal significantly more heat than the Pro 2’s relatively small brew chamber.

@kevadu

2 жыл бұрын

What's the point of a comparison that purposefully ignores one of the 58's best features? Obviously it's not going to make good coffee if you don't preheat it but it was also never intended to be used that way.

@paulnorman8274

2 жыл бұрын

@@kevadu While obviously correct; many of the buyers for these, are looking for an only espresso maker. Even 90% home use, 10% tailgate, may well tilt the balance in favor of the Robot, despite it ending up being a little bit inferior to the 58 for some roasts those 90% of the time it is used at home. IOW, that one best feature of the 58, may well be a bit of a mixed blessing for many of those looking specifically for a "manual" espresso maker. Imagine an electrically preheated Aeropress. Nice on occasion for sure, and some may be able to get that last nth degree of consistency from it in a home or shop setting. But many are buying Aeropresses specifically because of their good enough quality off-grid. There's also reliability and complexity. No doubt electric components are, in this day and age, generally more reliable than mechanical gaskets etc. But you are still adding another component which could have issues. And, again, many buyers of manual espresso makers, prefer them specifically because such buyers are often part of those self selected for skepticism towards electric things. Of course, perhaps just as many are buying the machines because they like the manual, handcrafted workflow, ad want the absolute best espresso such a workflow can get them. Perhaps because they don't want to pay for, or deal with, boilers and/or pumps etc. While not being concerned about tailgate espresso nor superstitions about flimsy electric stuff "made in China." (and, oh well, the Robot is made in "China"......). For them, it does seem the 58 does provide a somewhat more consistent and ergonomic experience. I find it nice that the reviewer pointed out issues which could be relevant to both (and more) groups of possible buyers. Personally, I'm getting a Robot for the simple reason that I can fill 98 (actually 96.something) degree water into the "boiler" directly from the Zojirushi dispenser I already have sitting on my counter. No need for a pourover kettle. I do the same thing with the Aeropress. Probably won't win me any barista championships, but then again, neither would any other equipment, no matter how fancy, given my palate's less than world class sensitivity. As long as I can reliably beat IperEspresso by enough of a margin to make the added work worth vile, the Robot will be a success in my book, even if someone less sloppy about their temps may be able to do even better with the consistency of an always perfectly preheated 58.

@Cenot4ph

2 жыл бұрын

lot of salty Robot owner in the comment section, if isn't obvious by now that the 58 produces better coffee that's only because the fandom clouds objectivity.

thank you

could the added texture in the robot shots be due to the longer preinfusion? i.e. the water begins to preinfuse the coffee once you pour the kettle, whereas with the flair it's only after you lift the lever.

@thomasfitzgibbon1675

3 жыл бұрын

That water isn’t really percolating through the puck until you push those arms down. If you were to just pour the water in the basket without putting the portafilter in place that bed of coffee will hold the water all day

@djcuvcuv

3 жыл бұрын

@@thomasfitzgibbon1675 that is a really good point about pressure. i have to respectfully disagree a bit just on the extent of the puck resistance you imply there with your analogy. passive (gravity) preinfusion is a real phenomenon and it affects the taste of espresso. it may well hold the water for a while and in fact it'll likely never precipitate droplets in the cup, but i can assure you from empirical mucking around (lol) that the entire puck (even ground incredibly fine with a monolith max) will be fully saturated and "brewing" at 0bar after only about 20-30s of contact.

For me it comes down to craftsmanship and longevity. Not saying the flair is poorly made, but there are a lot of parts, and gaskets that could potentially fail. The robot is wonderfully made and all metal and only the piston gasket may need to be replaced in the future. Almost 2 years using it daily and no issues. Plus I like the attention it gets from guests.

@kuroneko8343

3 жыл бұрын

I believe that longevity isn't just about how long something lasts but also how easy it is to fix and maintain for continued use? I know that with both these kinds of machines you should be able to order parts straight from the manufacturer and swap them out as needed. If you are arguing durability then on paper the Flair seems inferior but since its relatively new its hard to say for sure.

@susantohariyanto5806

3 жыл бұрын

I got my original flair from kickstarter 2017, and brew at least 2 cup everyday, still no issue till now. So i think it safe to say both will last for long

@Cenot4ph

2 жыл бұрын

It's obvious the 58 is the better machine here, grouphead electric heating removes the guess work when it comes to manual heating of the portafilter. This alone is a big difference in both workflow and consequently consistent coffee quality output.

@error.418

Жыл бұрын

My only complaint with the robot is it doesn't fit my nice scales :(

I'd be interested in seeing some experiments about the possibility of overextraction and so on based on the Robot having the water touching the screen that's touching the coffee without pressure being applied. One possible test would be to fill the Robot with coffee, add water, wait a set amount of time (since we want this to be an experimental condition, either vary it or go for a time that suggests that the person preparing coffee was briefly distracted, so maybe 2-3 minutes), remove as much of that water as feasible (with a turkey baster or something), then refill it with new hot water and perform an extraction, comparing the extraction results to shots pulled with the original water. You could also check the extraction percentage of the water removed from the portafilter with the baster, which may not visibly contain anything but turn out to have a surprising level of dissolved solids.

I’m a happy Robot owner… I’ve also been using a Flair. The idea behind picking a fully manual unit is that you don’t need electricity. The 58 defeats that purpose. If I wanted to plug it, I would go Pavoni all the way!!! The main reason why I prefer my robot is preheating. Way easier to get up to the right temp. And it’s only needed for lighter roasts. Yes the workflow of the 58 is very appealing… I also miss a true portafilter and a real lever on my machine. If they make a wireless version, I would be very interested in checking it out but then again, looking at the thermal mass of the unit in contact with water, I think that we’ll be back to favoring the Robot.

@user-kd2ez2mb3c

3 жыл бұрын

I’m with you. Love the timelessness of the robot. No upgrades, no bs, just straightforward great shots with easy workflow. The robot was the same years ago, the robot today is the robot yesterday.

@lukesp5721

3 жыл бұрын

@@user-kd2ez2mb3c agreed 👍

@atavax311

3 жыл бұрын

I mean, the flair 58 can still be used without electricity so i disagree with the sentiment that it's use of electricity defeats the purpose of having a manual espresso machine that doesn't need electricity. Both are great machines that look and function great and it was a hard decision for me to choose one to order over the other.

@yeonhocho2053

3 жыл бұрын

Flair sent an email about “Flair 58X” which is flair 58 without electronic. So you can preheat manually using Fellow Stagg or other method. And they are selling for $449

@Cenot4ph

2 жыл бұрын

more salty robot owners, why don't you objectively look at the benefits the heating stability provides. Your robot has more worklfow steps involved and it's thermally less stable because of this. All the Robot owners in this comment section are the same, justifying subjectively why theirs is better. Objectively, the 58 will produce better results.

Skipped adding water to the flair 58

@s0bad

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah that was bias. The robot let's you pour water and measure how much is going in whereas the flair does not.

How is the crema on both?

Is it possible to make one espresso (7g) in Flair 58? Because I own a Cafelat Robot and if I put less than 14g of coffee, it is no longer possible to push it, because of the design of the strainer.

@3YAPA

Жыл бұрын

Oh, this question is on my mind. So it's not possible to make a single shot with 7-10g of coffee in Robot?

@TheMikeborecek

Жыл бұрын

@@3YAPA no, it depends on the type of coffee, but below about 14g the coffee can no longer be tamped. They could have made an extra strainer for one espresso

I’m pretty curious how the 58 stacks up against a La Pavoni. I’m trying to decide whether or not to pull the trigger on a Stradivari 16 and my 58 hasn’t even arrived yet 😂

@Mukawakadoodoo

3 жыл бұрын

Me too, man! I wanna see a comparison between the 2 before I splurge!!

@thepatternforms859

2 жыл бұрын

flair is better...the la pavoni takes a while to heat and must be totally purged to add water or remove the PF...also can only pull single and double shots ....flair can pull lungos...also the 58 mm PF yeilds better shots

@yew108

Жыл бұрын

@@thepatternforms859 Hi ! Do you by any chance compare flair 58 with 9barista ? Which one give better shot ? Thanks !

Greetings, many people complain about flair because it does not release cream as in the commercials. I want to buy a cafelat robot, but I'm hesitant, how many ml of double espresso can we make with this machine? Also, is the coffee temperature sufficient?

what espresso device would you recommend for beginners?

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

Depends, what sort of budget are you working with? The tricky thing is you need a decent grinder as well. So I generally recommend going with one of the Breville options that have a built in grinder to just to keep it simple to start.

@timothybracken1728

3 жыл бұрын

@@Sprometheus ahh i have the encore and I've been making pour overs for the last 3 years. I want to start drinking/making espresso. My budget is probably 300-500 USD

@joconnell

3 жыл бұрын

@@timothybracken1728 either a good hand grinder like a 1zpresso jxpro, kinu or commandante to get something that'll go fine enough. The encore won't make the best of espresso unfortunately, the sette 270 might though if you wanna keep electric!

@jameschang8174

3 жыл бұрын

Have a look at Flair Pro2. Within your budget and makes great espresso. Many reviews on youtube.

I preheat my flair signature head with steam before every shot. There's just no other way to get good results out of something bright and acidic. Those electronic parts on the 58 would change everything for me.

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

The electronics are nice for sure, not having to pre-hear over and over is game changer.

The original design which robot copies had very ergonomic handles. Check it out. It's called Faema Baby Faemina. Hipster design won 😕

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

I’ll have to look it up!

@zwiftlord2853

3 жыл бұрын

@@Sprometheus I've seen a guy recently talking about Faema Baby Faemina. I was in shock how similar is the design :/.

@jameschang8174

3 жыл бұрын

@@zwiftlord2853 The designer of Robot clearly stated when he started the project years ago that Robot was a copy of Baby Faemina but with modern material and some modifications. I hope someone will follow the same path to make a modern La Peppina.

@brunocyclist

3 жыл бұрын

@@Sprometheus surprised you didn't know this. That's the origin story of the Robot. Mr Pratt, being a vintage espresso machine restorator and enthousiast, decided to build a modern, better engineered remake of the Faema Baby as a hobby project. Reactions to this hobby project were so euforious - take my money please! - that he decided to produce it commercially. As a cycling enthousiast (Team Faema) I like this nod to cycling and coffee history. I love the design of the Robot and like the tactile experience of the levers. I always hold them above the 'Lego' hands. I also love the easy workflow and small footprint of the Robot - I have a tiny kitchen. And together with my 1Zpresso JX it makes great shots of espresso. Wouldn't want to change it for anything else.

Good video as usual. With all the preheat stuff as well as stable pressure required to pull a shot, i started to wonder is an Espresso Machine really a necessity when you just want to have a nice cup of americano/latte around 1-2 times per day. Feels like a manual espresso machine with manual milk frother can do the job well also without the waste of energy. Besides, Moka pot / Aeropress might already able to produce a strong concentrated coffee for both Americano / Latte.

Where did you see that they're releasing a 58 w/o the electric heating component?

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

They told me when I said I was making this video, and that it would be announced by now. But it hasn’t been, so you heard it here first haha.

@Dan-fq7db

3 жыл бұрын

@@Sprometheus LOL nice. Well that's neat. I asked about it on the Facebook page near the launch of the 58. Any idea on price range?

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

@@Dan-fq7db im sure a lot of people did which is why they made the choice. Not sure on the price, but most likely cheaper.

@tomatopastefever3769

3 жыл бұрын

@@Dan-fq7db a local distributor in my country is now offering Flair 58x (w/o electrical components) on pre-order. Give or take the price diff is 80-90 USD.

I don’t have a need for either with a pavoni lever, but if i was to choose it’d be the flair as well. It looks a lot more user friendly and purpose built, whereas the robot looks like a showpiece (i’m sure it makes good coffee though)

I have a bbe and just sold a flair neo. I much prefer dealing with management on the robot. A lot of casual users don't want to mess with thermals. This is where the robot shines.

I have a Robot and love it, but I’ve never had the chance to use the Flair. I definitely get where the points made in this comparison are coming from, but I think there’s an interesting bit of context on the Robot that’s missing - not that it really undermines your takes in the video, just interesting alongside them. The Robot is (creator) Paul Pratt’s attempt to fix some of the problems he saw with a beloved vintage piece, the Faema Faemina Baby. The machines are nearly identical in overall form and function, but with aesthetic and usability tweaks to bring the latter into the modern age. I think initially Mr. Pratt had no intention of going to market with this project, but clamor from folks who followed along with it led him to do so anyway. Of course, since he did, that makes comparison to any other similar product on the market totally fair. But I think it’s interesting (important, even?) to note where this machine is coming from and how that dictates many of the choices made that may influence its usability. Great video!

I'm totally agree with you in terms of work flow and comfort... FLAIR 58 seems to be more Barista friendly for those who already are... But if a coffee home Barista approach espresso territory I guess maybe Robot will catch the eye... I'll choose Flair, this version I guess overall has i think the most features we need... Hope one day to try it 😉

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

I definitely think both are great, but yeah in grand scheme the 58 just edges it out in a couple points.

It’s also worth mentioning that you can use a VST basket in the Flair or another basket of your choice, whereas the Robot limits you to theirs.

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

I did mention that in the video.

Oh my lord the flair 58 community.. Fanatic doesn't begin to describe it.. I'm in a facebook group as I'm a newcomer to the flair game with a Classic/pressurised portafilter. It's so frustrating, 95% of the answers, regardless of the question, are always the same. "Hey my shots in the neo are sour." Get a flair 58 "I'm debating getting the signature vs the pro" Buddy, get a flair 58 "What's the grinder you pair with your classic?" A flair 58 It's mind boggling

I can't decide between the flair 58 and gaggia classic

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

They’re from two different worlds really, even with a similar price. If you really want to dig into espresso as a hobby and get into the pressure profiling and nerdier stuff the Flair is great. But if you want to just master the basics of espresso and steaming without all the waiting and the Gaggia is the way to go.

@Acontinouslean

3 жыл бұрын

@@Sprometheus see, I think they're very good competitors . I've been working in coffee over 9 years . For me, both make espresso, will the gaggia make as good of espresso? Cause the only reason I'd choose the flair is it the final drink tasted better . Otherwise , I'd choose the convenience

It seems like there were price changes since your video was uploaded. From what I see, the base version robot costs 310 usd (barista version with the pressure gauge at 370 usd) whereas the base flair 58 is 575 usd. There's quite a bit of a price difference now. What now?

Makes a awesome Americano with great crema

I like the functions of flair 58. But the body is unstable and doesn't look hard. flair looks cool, but the detailed design is disappointing. I don’t like location of the electric wire and the coffee puck filter look as difficult to clean as an ims super fine basket. I want to buy a robot and wait for the next version of 58.

Here in the EU the Flair 58 is double the price of the Robot. Robot also looks more simple and easier to clean. Seems like a No Brainer for me

I think the 58 is very beautiful. Very different in style to the robot, but more slick. I prefer the retro look personally but I don't think it's a definitive, objective win for the robot. As a side note, I agree with the other commentor, the shots of you talking into the camera don't look as cinematic, or with good enough composition, in comparison with ALL of your other shots, maybe playing with angle and distance, adding a simple object (like a grinder or plant) to the side to balance the composition, maybe a backdrop, it could elevate that shot which is the one you use the most.

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

I’m definitely toying around with some ideas in terms of filming those talking shots, but in the end I think it’s the content of the video that really matters and always comes first.

@sebaba001

3 жыл бұрын

@@Sprometheus Of course content is king! I like the content it's why I am here. Just a small feedback, mostly due to congruency.

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

@@sebaba001 I get you! It’s on the list for sure. I always appreciate constructive criticism.

Can't wait for my 58. Ordered the full pullman setup the day of the flair preorder, so thats been sitting around taunting me for weeks :(

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

Nice! I love the Pullman gear. I need to get the basket though. That’s the last piece of the puzzle.

@nAlvaradoProductions

3 жыл бұрын

@@Sprometheus I snagged the chisel, funnel, basket, and a wooden barista tamper+matching stand. Figure that should immediately bump the 58 up to the next level and alleviate any gripes with the stock setup. All I need to do is move the SEP to the new machine and I think thats as far as 58mm levers can go at this point.

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

@@nAlvaradoProductions sounds like you’re fully set up!

@nAlvaradoProductions

3 жыл бұрын

@@Sprometheus Just waiting on the weber key kickstarter now. Then I'll be sitting pretty for a few years.

Great review! I wish I could afford the Flair 58, is the dream lever machine. Unfortunately as of now, for us in Europe its price is a little bit on the expensive end (adding duties, fairs etc). At that price point La Pavonis come into play.

@_EDDE_

3 жыл бұрын

👍 Very true!

@neilcleland5554

3 жыл бұрын

I got tired of temp surfing with my Pavoni Europiccola so I sold it and got a Robot...works great! I´d probably be just as happy with a 58 :)

@_EDDE_

3 жыл бұрын

@@neilcleland5554 ⭕️ Thanks for the opinion. Without modifications on La Pavonis that is very true, I do wish the Flair 58 was reasonably priced, though. As of now over half a grand it is the wrong price-range.

I love my 9Barista espresso maker 🤫

@Ma_Ba

2 жыл бұрын

I saw James Hoffmann's review of that.

Is there any SILICONE that comes into contact with the brew water? Does ONLY stainless steel, copper or brass come into contact with what you eventually DRINK?

Both have removable portafilter...

Trying to start a ww3 here in the comment section LOL

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

Haha I’m surprised it hasn’t gotten out of hand yet...

COVID has killed my taste buds. Anyone have any experience with regaining sensitive taste for enjoying coffee again? I’ve been symptom free for almost a month.

@sztigirigi

3 жыл бұрын

These are not taste buds that were damaged. But your nervous system endings in your nose. So it is a neurological issue. Should pass. 95% of people regain sense of smell after 6 months. So no worries.

@Ma_Ba

2 жыл бұрын

Search for exercises! I read someone on IG who said they were doing reorienting exercises. Reminded of when I once had an injury that lead to vertigo. I saw a neurologist and had physical/occupational therapy exercises. I recovered from that in 2 weeks. Not at all to do with Covid, but it had to do with retraining the brain and sensory perception related to Eyes, Ears, sense of self in space perception.

I’m having a hard time justifying the cost of either the Flair 58 or the Robot. Why so much? Do they produce significantly better espresso than the signature pro? I doubt it.

@sebaba001

3 жыл бұрын

the 58 basically construction size, wood and electronics, that's where the money goes, while the robot is hand made by 1 or 2 guys, so that's where its price goes, they could just make them in china and probably half their price to compete with RoK price or something, but the quality wouldn't be the same

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah they are definitely pricy machines. Like the other commenter said there are some reasons for the price, but even in my review for the 58 I said that it doesn’t make far and away better espresso than my Pro, it just has a lot of workflow additions.

They both look like great machines, but for me the larger basket and flexibility of options of the flair wins.

Getting crazy with the price rather go with the Rock commercial version that has a pressure gauge as well and the price is much better.

Can't understand if the temperature is so important... Why the taste difference is not significant? My Robot technique is to grind finer - that increase the shot time (and the coffee surface in the same time) and compensate the lower temperature.

@paulnorman8274

2 жыл бұрын

Very accurate temperature is primarily important for more "exotic", mostly very light roast, beans. The big coffee makes, who sell in volume to coffee shops and retailers, make sure their roasts/blends have relatively wide sweet spots. There's probably a fairly big overlap between the sort of people looking for espresso "machines" as exotic as fully manual ones, and "exotic" beans. For "most people," and the coffee they are looking to make, it's less critical. But then again, "most people" don't buy Robots and Flairs to get their coffee kick.... I think that situation is, honestly, a bit unfortunate. Like most other complimentary products, coffee and the equipment used to make it, evolve synergistically. These manual machines are really throwbacks to an era before corner-case 3rd wave obsessions over barely roasted single bean coffees. Those coffees have evolved because there are now hyper precise and repeatable sensors-and-control-everywhere-and-over-everything equipment (like that other Hong Kong made machine at the opposite end from the Robot on the analog-digital continuum....) which can make sense out of them. Back when analog and manual put upper limits on repeatability and consistency, those kinds of coffees simply weren't sold. So while I realize the kind of geeks who like to geek out over limit-case manuality are often the exact same guys prone to geek out over hyper narrow, single bean, "revealing" light roasts, I don't really think the two make for a good pairing. Certainly not for an easy one.

I've had the Robot for a few years but I ordered the Flair because I wanted to have one in the office and the other at home (when I sold my machines with boilers, the one in the office was sold and the Robot is now there). Well, I didn't keep the Flair. First, the pressure gauge didn't work. The lever also tended to move to one side. This is not reassuring for a manual machine with very few parts. You expect everything to work. Secondly, in terms of cups, the Flair is very good, but it's not up to the level of the Robot. It's not just "more texture with the Robot, more clarity with the Flair". The shots are better with the Robot (admittedly, in my opinion). This is a pity, because the Flair offers the enormous advantage of being able to use all kinds of baskets, including 1-cup baskets. In terms of temperature, the Flair is no better than the Robot when the Robot's basket is placed on the kettle's spout. And then, the Flair has to be plugged in. The Roboet cleans faster. finally, the Flair is considerably more expensive than the Roboet here in France. That said, the flair (when everything's working) is very good. But as the video is a comparison, I'll give you my feelings on the subject.

Some hopefully constructive criticism after having watched your videos for a while. If you can, raise the lens to eye level or slightly above eye level when filming people. Maybe do a medium shot instead of a close shot in some scenarios and don't be afraid to move the camera around a little bit to get some variety in your "'talk to the camera" sections. I feel they lack compared to the cinematography that you do elsewhere. I also have a pet peeve that is the "hey guys" / whats up everyone, but I do know everyone feels differently about that.

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

I get you and that bothers me too. As a one man operation it just is so time consuming and not fun at all to get the talking head shots so I spend quite a bit more time on the fun shots instead. I’m thinking of getting a second camera which would be helpful on that. It’s also very difficult because it’s a one bedroom apartment and don’t have a ton of space for filming.

@potatotr33

3 жыл бұрын

@@Sprometheus I entirely understand, I don't think the close shot flatters you (as much as it could) how its currently done and with a few small tweaks it would make tons of differences. Sit up a little bit straighter/ shoulders back and camera at eye level and crop out a bit wider should do wonders. If possible for a non-white wall background / gray sheet on the wall can help too. I totally understand the time consuming nature and don't expect you to do any or all of these suggestions, I just want to let you know how close you are to a really great shot and I think the slight additional time/effort is totally worth it.

I think the Flair is pretty, personally

@Edfireman1

3 жыл бұрын

I think the robot is a design classic

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

@austinfreyrikrw6651

3 жыл бұрын

Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder. I own a Flair Signature in chrome, and this all black look of the 58 just doesn't do it for me at all. If they have it in chrome, then I would consider upgrading as I seriously like the handled portafilter and the redesigned brew chamber and piston.

Flair looks easier to use but it is fugly and I would rather have the challenge and enjoy looking at my Robot

Flair 58 or refurb bezzera hobby......exactly the same price

I would rather buy a gaggia classic pro, it has a milk steamer, preheats itself, and i dont need to put any pressure

@paulnorman8274

2 жыл бұрын

For low volume, household use, I'm not sure cleaning and maintaining the plumbing ends up being any simpler than applying some pressure manually. For any setting requiring higher throughput, sure. I view these things a bit like Aeropress and pourovers, vs drip machines: A bit more work for each cup, but less scheduled, and unscheduled, dorking around.

I got myself the Robot last year. Now with FLAIR 58 out I would go for the flair. Last year, it was Robot all the way.

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

That’s the problem! There’s always new stuff dropping around every corner!

@jsiminski

3 жыл бұрын

@@Sprometheus yep. However, now that Nanofoamer is around I am happy with my setup - Niche Zero, the Robot, and a lot of good coffee.

I’ve heard that the Flair produces a watery texture in comparison to the Robot. Mouthfeel matters and for that reason, I’m considering the Robot for my next purchase.

Ultimately the Robot is more compact, way easier to clean up and set up. They also released Robot hands that make the pull way more comfortable. To me that's what pushed me to get the Robot over the flair. Been extremely happy with it the last year or so.

@Cenot4ph

2 жыл бұрын

The Flair 58 will produce better shots because it's thermal more consistent, next to the larger basket offering probably higher extraction.

I can't wait until the 58 ships. My Decent tamper is crying alone in its box it shipped in last month, I have 10, 15, 20, and 22g Decent baskets on the way, and dogonit I just want to have an easier workflow making espresso for me and my fiancee who is now coming around to liking coffee

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

It’ll be worth the wait. Bummer to see that they didn’t order a bigger batch to begin with so they didn’t have so many people waiting.

@classicrockonly

3 жыл бұрын

@@Sprometheus True that. There's a huge demand. I'm glad I got in on the presale, and that my purchase went through despite the technical difficulties

Come to /r/CafelatRobot and join us for some good old fashioned crying and moaning.

I would go for flair 58, if I hadn’t have the flair pro, faemina baby and la pavoni... of course other two machines in the storage room waiting for me to repaire...

Robot's water filling technique feel a lot like "filter kapi" just pressurized at the end. Not a fan of its form over function approach...

@Ma_Ba

2 жыл бұрын

Are you saying really they are function over form instead of form over function?

As someone with a small kitchen space, I would choose Robot for its modest space requirement (that said, I'm a happy Nanopresso user).

I m more interesed to read people comments

The robot is more precise. It allows you to measure how much water goes in. Also the foot print is way smaller and cleaning and maintaining it is going to be much much simpler.

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

I’ll give it to you on the footprint and cleaning, but you’re supposed to essentially fill the entire brew chamber on both of them to avoid air pockets, so accuracy only matters coming out the other side.

@s0bad

3 жыл бұрын

@@Sprometheus what I mean is on the robot the water chamber can be taken out to fill whereas on flair it is not removable. My workflow for the robot is to put the water chamber on a scale and measure how much water I'm putting in before attaching it to the machine. This way I know exactly how much I'll get out of it and i simply stop extracting when all the water is out.

@s0bad

3 жыл бұрын

I haven't heard of air pockets being a problem on robot. I only fill how much water is required.

@Cenot4ph

2 жыл бұрын

Robot owners justifying their purchase of an inferior product. All these things are workflow related, regardless the 58 heating is unbeatable versus manual pre-heating.

@Zenthils

Жыл бұрын

@@Cenot4ph Imagine being a "fanboy'" of a brand. You sound like a sad little man.

Cafelat 👍👍👍💪💪💪💪💪

flair 58 all the way

@stevefoster4732

2 жыл бұрын

Why? Just curious.

Wow obviously Flair paid you....jk Great video!!

Flair all the way!

@Sprometheus

3 жыл бұрын

It’s a solid machine that’s for sure!

Flair 58 is not pretty? That’s blasphemy.

เละเป็นโจ๊กเมื่อ Flair 58mm ออก Manual ที่ไม่ Manual กลายเป็น Semi Manualectric Flair 58mm ชาวโรบอทก็ลุกฮือแสดงความภาคภูมิใจต่อช็อตของตนเองต่อไป โถมโครมๆโพสโชว์ช็อตที่แอบพรีฮีทหลังกล้องกดมุมสวยๆ ไม่เอา chanel อ้างว่าแบบเดิมมานานไม่ต้องทำอะไรเพิ่ม เหมือนรถแรงที่หาแค่ของแต่งก็ชิลแล้ว ส่วนตัวผมนั้นนั่งชมเสพความบันเทิง ต้ม moka pot ต่อไป

Wrong region. Yes, this region. So anyway, I like the handle and its ergonomic grip. Get your head out of the gutter already. Yeah, the Flair 58 is less fussy so it wins imo. I like the angled shots also, nice job. Just a side note: the slow zooming on the face makes the shot a bit tense as if a bombshell is about to happen like a confession or some sort of impending doom like circumstances. Just my observation, anyway keep it up.

you talked a lot, but what did you want to say?

You are too close to the camera.

@Sprometheus

Жыл бұрын

Your mom thought it was a great view