You can listen to almost anybody talk for 15 seconds about anything, and almost 100% of the time you can guess immediately what they think about Sabermetrics. If they are an idiot, they don't think it works. I guess every team in the league is adding analytics to their repertoire because it doesn't work.

@rangers1919

9 жыл бұрын

Bruce Wright You sound like a run of the mill moron. Everything Lipton has written has been debunked. You cannot "reprogram" you DNA with your mind, just like the kind of reprogramming you are talking about cannot be done to make a players routinely hit .400. Even if you could do that, which without debate you cannot, why the fuck wouldn't people just program pitchers to throw 200 miles per hour? On top of that, why would Sabermatrics be useful after the impossible task of reprogramming people is done, but not now? You make no sense, because you are a dolt, who has fallen for fraudsters. Please wake up, and join reality.

@rangers1919

9 жыл бұрын

Bruce Wright Do you think it is a coincidence that nobody is able to do this now with pitchers throwing significantly harder, with more movement, specialist relievers, etc.? If you don't factor that, I see why you don't know anything about sabermetrics, and I also don't think you know shit about baseball. The guys you mention for the most part played when pitchers had no pitch count, pitched complete games in both ends of a double-header, etc. It's absurd to think it is because of "focus" and magical awareness, instead of those factors based in reality. I don't think a .400 batting average is impossible; I do think using the idiotic methods you push will have nothing to do with it if it happens. The only person I see not thinking for themselves is the person who has essentially bought into a scammer's cult.

@rangers1919

9 жыл бұрын

You have no idea what you are talking about. Just look at pitchers 10 years ago; if there were 2 guys coming out of the bullpen throwing 95+ it was huge, now every team has a few of these guys they can roll out there. In 2003 only 1 reliever hit 100 MPH 25+ times, in 2013 8 relievers did it. That follows across the board, and is compiled with accurate, equally calibrated radar guns. The guys you cite were measured with such bullshit as driving a motorcycle beside them when they threw. Babe Ruth 100% could not throw the ball 100 MPH, there's no doubt about that. On top of all that, just use common sense, and watch any old baseball clip of pitchers. The pitches aren't anywhere near as fast as today, and have nowhere near the movement. Also, the pitchers have nowhere near the force of their body behind it due to mechanics. A few could reach the top speeds, but nowhere near as many as now. They throw bouncing balls up there and people swing not because they are brain dead, but because they can actually pitch. In the old days you love, where nothing was measured, and bullshit ruled the day, they could throw an 85 MPH fastball, and a few junk pitches. Now they throw a 95+MPH fastball, and have much sharper curves. Also, the advent of the slider, which is the pitch people chase in the dirt was revolutionary. You cannot debate this coherently, because you live in an alternate reality, and have at best a superficial knowledge about the subject. You don't even have a fucking clue about what Sabermetrics is. You complain that people don't use their "minds"--ironically after reciting dozens of idiotic, disproven theories as true--and then complain about Sabermetrics. The key thing the initial wave of Sabermetrics used by the A's looked at was OBP being more important than other stats. They were looking for exactly what you are complaining about, players who get on base instead of chasing junk. You still haven't answered how this mystery mindfullness is going to only apply to batters, and why it won't also apply to pitchers, putting them equal again, and once again needing a way to measure and predict which players are valuable. You did mention manliness, toughness, and a bunch of other crap that is irrelevant. Why don't you write a synopsis on how a player has the "Look of a Leader?"

@rangers1919

9 жыл бұрын

Use common sense, and look at the actual video. The players you listed may have been hitting 100 MPH regularly, but there were only a handful of them. Look at statements by actual players; they state that the pitching is so much more dominant now league-wide. The average pitcher now would be a top 10 pitcher in the 60's, and probably a top 5 at any time before the 50's. Why do you think baseball is the only sport where there have not been advancements? I love Cobb, but he couldn't hit .100 in today's game.

@wyssmaster

8 жыл бұрын

+rangers1919 I can't believe you had the patience to respond to that moron as long as you did.

saber is important, but it shouldn't be the deciding factor always. there is still a human element to the game, and it will always stay that way, and its something that saber cant really control

Sabermetrics works. Love it or hate it that's the fact. Most teams now utilize at least some form of it. Should it be the end all be all of player evaluation? No. Should it be a great starting point of even maybe the decision maker. Yes. Sabr, Fangraphs, Baseball Prospectus, etc. have proven that the traditional player evaluation has faults. You can get quality production at huge discounts by using platoons, exploiting splits and park factors and line up optimization. I also teen like Babe Ruth is so valuable in the analytics community as opposed to Cobb solely on extra bases. Anyway I think the key here is like anything else in life. Finding the balance.

@Gwazi

4 жыл бұрын

Mat Doherty it can still work and be overrated

@e2go

Жыл бұрын

It's made the game boring with no personality😂

Unsure what basis people are using when they claim it's "overrated" when there's so much evidence to the contrary, as Kenny referenced in this segment.

@vidowatcher91

5 жыл бұрын

The basis is it's over their heads honestly. I am a newcomer on this, and I know when I was down talking sabermetrics I didn't understand any of the stats

Good OPS numbers are as easy to understand as good batting averages. There are well established benchmarks.

Saber metrics are NOT overrated they give many teams key advantages ..... While chemistry and drive are important Baseball is still 50 % strategic warfare

no rings no rings

Hawks a fucking dinosaur...of course he is old school

I love watching these guys debate lol

I still have trouble with SLUG% and OPS...

Remind me when was the last time the Oakland As won the world series?

@jaydenbell4975

3 жыл бұрын

putting out a consistent winning ballclub/playoff contender is what is being referenced here, not how frequently a team can make it to the world series using either advanced analytics or traditional ideals.

But that's the whole point. Is to be efficient with the money you spend. Some teams (Red Sox) have the money to spend regardless, but have benefited as a result of embracing advanced stats. Others (A's, Rays) HAVE to use it as a means of competing. Finding value where others have overlooked it. Just because you look at numbers doesn't mean you don't enjoy the game. I love watching Mike Trout play baseball. However, advanced stats put into perspective just how amazing/rare his 2012 was.

It measures a batters ability to get on base and when he does get on base, how many bases he is taking I don't understand why it isn't a good stat

I thought Andre Dawson was going to talk about sabermetrics :(

Sabermetrics have been great for the game, but I also believe there's value in seeing a guy play, intangibles, etc. There's too many people on both sides who completely dismiss the other as Hawk was doing here

OPS= On Base Plus Slugging, Slug% is basically % of hits that are doubles, triples, and homeruns

Sabermetrics have value but aren't the only factor that should be considered when building a team. We have seen time and time again over the years that a hybrid system is the most effective

You can just look at ball players and say they're good or bad. But if they go into slumps, you should take the initiative to learn what they're doing is causing their slump. I watch MLB Network all the time and when some players go into slumps, they do a demo of why that's happening. It provides a great insight on the game of baseball instead of getting numbers of a player's slump from other networks like ESPN.

Try not putting that one on the board....yes

Nerdometrics

He absolutely is. Maybe not over the course of his career. But the last few seasons he has cost his team runs. Even old-school, conventional baseball minds will tell you Jeter's range is absolutely diminished. You can see it. Take nothing away from him, he's probably one of the top-5 SS's of all-time, by any metric. But if the argument is defensive ability, there is no argument. Anybody can see that.

It works for the a’s huh. When was the last time they even made it to the World Series

@jaydenbell4975

3 жыл бұрын

putting out a consistent winning ballclub/playoff contender is what is being referenced here, not how frequently a team can make it to the world series using either advanced analytics or traditional ideals.

Former ESPN Sportscenter anchor who left to cover more baseball. Made a wise choice I believe.

@jsXanatos

4 жыл бұрын

she lasted a whole 3 months

He mentions the A's who haven't won a title since '89 and the Ray's who have yet to even win a championship. Give me a break!

@jaydenbell4975

3 жыл бұрын

putting out a consistent winning ballclub/playoff contender is what is being referenced here, not how frequently a team can make it to the world series using either advanced analytics or traditional ideals.

While I like OPS it is kind of a dumb stat though because the denominator of the 2 stats are not the same.

It is a little bit over rated but it does work

depends on the type of player, .750 is avg. over 1.000 is great. Babe Ruth's career OPS was 1.164, not that you need OPS to tell that Babe Ruth was great

@BorosWarmaster

2 жыл бұрын

apologies for the super necro but for someone who is kind of a new baseball fan that stat tells me how great he is without having to watch old black and white film.

Hawk is right. Eat it, nerds.

The whole concept of wanting to win a baseball game is the stupidest thing I have ever heard! Nobody likes to be on a losing team! Everyone wants to win!

@fluffynoses

8 жыл бұрын

+M SS except the Upton brothers LMFAO jk jk

Ha I know what it is, it's just hard to understand what a good OPS is.

@leothomas8997

3 жыл бұрын

Depends on the position. >800 is good. >900 is great. >1000 is elite.

Whether Kenny is an idiot is irrelevant; Hawk was and still is completely wrong on Sabermetrics.

@123shoshan

7 жыл бұрын

War is a fake stat

I think the Boston Red Sox would disagree with you.

So what's your point?

Who is Brian Kenny?

@boridebrooklyn8300

4 жыл бұрын

Gregg Giltis thank you 🙏🏽

The reason the rays are winning because it's the beginning of the trend. Historical trends tend to occur every 10 years whether it's from trades or free agents sabermetrics doesn't work all the time and that's why people get fired

Brian Kenny...oof...

sm is bullshit. the thing that should be used today is the comparison between todays matchbox ballparks and the old ones. yankee stadium.......400 ft to center. was 461.....ok willie hank etc how many 425 ft outs would YOU have hit there and how many DID mickey hit there in 18 yrs.......sn is just a geeks way of overcomplicating the game. HOT FLASH FOR YA...THE TEAM THAT SCORES MORE RUNS WINS>>>>LOLOL

There are far more reliable metrics than OPS and especially batting average. Which give a more complete picture of a hitter. I was a nay-sayer as well. But it's all just mathematics. Nothing more.

outtaherephils When you mention "seeing a guy play", do you mean scouting? Scouting is still a huge part of the game, and sabermetrics have helped in that department (determining by the way a player plays and what he does on the field and how he does it how he will do in the big leagues, if he will be successful, how he will be successful, and how long he will be successful.) Intangibles certainly do have an effect on the players' psyche, but it's virtually impossible to determine how much that contributes to on-the-field production.

@wyssmaster

8 жыл бұрын

+Hunter Guffy I dunno, man, you gotta WASHEMPLAY.

Honestly Sabermetrics fans and haters are right and wrong. This debate isn’t black and white. It’s gray. Sabermetrics can help with building really good teams but in situational baseball human element is key. That’s why it’s a gray subject

60% of the poll said "overrated" lol. Just add this as an example as to why we should never trust public opinion.

sabermetrics are nonsense, when a stat called UZR says Jeter is the worst fielding SS, that just shows you how wrong and irrelevant sabermetrics are

Did the A's and Rays win the world series? No. Sabermetrics does well in the long run simply due to regressing to the mean. Yes, if you put together a team that gets on base, and instead of bunting you push for a really, and you score x amount of runs and give up y amount of runs over a course of 162 games you would win around 90 games a year. It fails in a short series, as in the playoffs. Why? Because there teams become condense and throw out their best pitchers. Players take more risk as in stealing third base. You have nerves and at times luck. But luck aside it comes down to talent at that point and performing on the big stage. Advanced states cannot account for that. The Red Sox won the WS due to signing players like Damon, Ramirez, Schilling, etc.

@jaydenbell4975

3 жыл бұрын

putting out a consistent winning ballclub/playoff contender is what is being referenced here, not how frequently a team can make it to the world series using either advanced analytics or traditional ideals.

Because he IS the worst fielding shortshop. Terrible range, he can only field balls 2 feet near him.

Sabermetrics is good for evaluating and individual player's value if they don't stand out in one category. Outside of that, it is extremely overrated. Look at it this way, Billy Beane, the king of sabermetrics, has absolutely nothing to show for it, not even close to a pennant. Brian Sabean, his cross bay rival, has three rings already. Billy Beane likes to constantly dismantle playoff teams or trade all stars in their prime for prospects because on paper he's getting the better end of the deal. Brian Sabean has kept most of his team together and didn't trade homegrown all stars for prospect bunches or "statistically better" players. What Brian Sabean gets that Billy Beane doesn't get is that the best way to win a championship is to keep a potent lineup in tact as long as possible because they know how to play together. Sabermetrics is good for evaluating individual players but it's no way to manage an entire team because it takes the human element right out of baseball.

@Thaheadband33

7 жыл бұрын

Is that why every single team now has a large analytics department? The A's aren't even at the forefront anymore. You know who is? The Cubs, the best team in the league.

I think in 2022 we've went full circle and sabermetrics are starting to get into the overrated territory