My experience of using verticals for 36 years, during which I have worked over 320 entities on 80m and over 260 entities on Topband, 25 years of which were from the typical suburban garden: if comparing vertical antennas with horizontal, the direction of gain should be considered for both. Obviously we know a dipole works best broadside with nulls at its end. A vertical can have variable gain if the ground system is extensive in some directions and limited in others. I easily proved that working mobile - if the mobile antenna was boot mounted, I could improve my signal by facing the vehicle at the DX. Elevated counterpoise systems can be better than ground mounted providing that they consist of at least 4 wires at 90 deg to each other. I would dispute Steppir's claim that 2 wires is optimum. I think broadside to those wires there would be lower gain. A long time ago, after extensive testing, I gave up using ground mounted radials for my low band verticals. I now use a galvanised wire mesh ground screen. It has lower losses, is therefore more efficient, and is far easier to install. Just lay it on grass, peg down with metal tent pegs, and 2 to 3 months later it will have disappeared into the lawn enough to get the grass cut. Care with bonding strap(s) to the antenna and you are in business. For the high bands I am fairly sure that even a mini-beam would out perform a vertical especially if that vertical used ground radials. One with a uniform counterpoise would be best at challenging a beam - that is why the Gap Titan works so well on the bands where it is not compromised by its size. The bottom line for anyone though is do the best you can with what you have and remember any advice on antennas can never be taken as absolute gospel. So much depends on your circumstances such as size of plot, make up of the soil, surroundings and so on. Experiment!

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Erik. A balanced view based on hands-on operation. Makes interesting reading. 73 Peter

Hi Peter. We spoke recently when I was pedestrian mobile at the salt lagoons . Your videos about vertical antennas are great , easy listening and informative. As you know I've made horizontal beams, vertical steerable beams and many other simple wire antennas. It's a fantastic side of our hobby. Thanks Peter from Ken EA5/G4VZV/ pedestrian mobile

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Ken. Yes great for me to hear your exploits and chat with you . I did email a short response to you and will use some of your images in a future video . Your results are quite amazing and inspiring. 73 Peter.

These are the best, most practical, most "no nonsense" ham radio videos available! And the Spiderbeam masts are, as you say in the UK, "brilliant."

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Wow, thanks! 73 Peter

Most interesting and many thanks Trig

Nice to see you back, aerials my favourite topic and one that just defies the text books. Piece of wire hanging from a tree ¼ wave on 20 and two raised radials about 18” off the ground. Cheapest aerial I’ve made and works brilliant. But conditions are very variable and may not truly indicate how good or bad it is. Be patient. Great vid 👍🏻

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Many thanks Mike. Nice to have trees in the right place!! 73 Peter

Good info, as usual...I use the MFJ 46 foot vertical with about 30 various lengths radials....best antenna ever.

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

If the radials are all ground mounted, maybe worth adding a single elevated resonant radial for one of the bands. See how it works out. 73 Peter.

Thanks for your honest discussion about myths, facts and opinions. I'm enjoying both my antennas one a vertical and the other a horizontal wire. Interesting how we hams tend to be ham home centric. We say our antenna has a clear shot, horizontal or vertical so it must be good. However, what about all the obstacles the signal encounters along the way. We typically don't know the challenges the operator on the other end faces! Keep up the good work with your channel. Cheers!

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Many thanks Dean. Great to hear from you. 73 Peter

Good morning Peter. I wanted to tell you how much I really enjoy your videos, especially the aerial related. One that brought back fond memories, the flying hams with Richard. Good to see you're all doing well. Pass on my best wishes to Jeff, Richard, and Mike (G3SED). Malcolm ex RSGB, G0UCX, K1VZ. Now living in Vero Beach, Florida.

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Malcolm, great to hear from you. Yes will pass on your regards. All OK here Si nce Covid I have been working mainly from home. But it keeps me occupied. Best wishes toy you and keep in touvh. 73 Peter.

Awesome video

I think you're absolutely spot on with your theory about ground-mounted verticals. I've long held that theory/belief. I've had phenomenal results with verticals when portable (often on SOTA activations........in other words on a mountain with very little clutter with just 5-10 watts & just one or two radials). I've also had good luck with verticals at my 3 acre site in Wiltshire. Unfortunately the results from my mid-terrace home in Swindon have been much less impressive despite a better ground system. I've even set up exactly the same antenna both portable & at my home QTH & there's a big difference. The only thing that's changed is the location (& the amount of clutter surrounding the antenna). I've got a theory that a 20m EFHW on an 18m Spiderbeam mast which will put the feed point at approximately 8m (just above the roofline) would work very well? Anecdotally, I've heard of other people who have had good results with this setup (I think TechMinds did a video on it). The limiting factor would be the noise level, which actually isn't too bad on 20m (compared to my noise level on 80m & 40m). There's also the logistics of putting up an 18m mast in a small garden & will I get away with it without upsetting the neighbours or the local planning department. My neighbours are pretty good (I had a 12m Spiderbeam up for about 6 months & nobody said anything) so I think I might get away with it..........I'm damn well going to give it a go!!! Speaking of which, do you have any ideas when the 18m Spiderbeam will be back in stock? According to your website you are currently out of stock.

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Hi there. Some great information. Love to hear how 18m would wotk. For the 18m pole call Glyn or Stephen on 01702 206835. 73 Peter.

Very good and interesting video.☘️👍

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for visiting

Is that the 12m heavy duty pole please and yes I have a 43ft vertical which I use to hunt for Dx on 80m then I switch to my magloop to make the contact behaving said that the vertical works well on the higher bands I use a couple of elevated ground wires for each band and it works well thankyou for the very informative video keep it up m0dsy

I just moved to a new property with a 25x50M/82x164ft backyard. Chomping at the bit to start building up the new antenna farm haha

General advice, your antenna, not your rig, governs your station’s capabilities. I’d suggest that typical backyard set-ups of a solid vertical or dipole antenna are worthy of entry level radios (which are still plenty expensive and powerful-like the Icom 7300). That’s oodles of fun right there. The best station I ever heard was a Jamaican guy working Japan and India SSB with a “lowly” Yaesu 950. He had a 3 element beam on a 100’ tower near the coast. That antenna, not his rig, made him a DX superstar.

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Many thanks for your input. 73 Peter.

@gonebamboo4116

2 жыл бұрын

Sounds good at first but not entirely true, not the "whole" truth.

@kd8opi

2 жыл бұрын

@@gonebamboo4116 Oh it’s the whole truth. Your antenna is what makes a station. Not the rig. Hook up a $5k radio to a comparatively poor antenna- say a lone wire ground vertical with limited radials or a “random wire” antenna, or a G5RV at only 20’ or so, and all that extra goodness above and beyond a typical (and still pretty darn good) $1000 rig to get -130 dB signals and close signal dynamic range is wasted. You cant hear weak stations the antenna can’t pick up. Compare that to a serious antenna system , like a high-mounted, full loop, sky wave at 100’ above ground, a couple or more high-mounted fan dipoles facing different directions, phased vertical arrays, and of course Yagis and it’s no comparison. The station with a good radio and a great antenna beats a station with a great radio and a good antenna every time.

I have a 23' flagpole that I use for my antenna. Its base is about 2' in the ground with another 1' sticking up. There I have connected a solid plastic rod so that I can separate the upper part of the antenna from the base, so there is about a 1' separation between the base and the antenna. The base and the antenna are aluminum. Feed the antenna with an automatic antenna tuner. Have sheets of aluminum around the base where I run radials (currently 8 of various lengths). Have an 8' grounding rod that grounds the antenna and the tuner. I'm curious to try a couple of above ground radials to see how they may work. Have been using WSJT-X to see were I can connect and I've worked most all of Europe, Russia, Asia, and Australia. I am totally shocked how many stations I've worked. One thousand in the 1st week. I live in central Florida. The great part is I can tune the flagpole to any band from 6 to 80 meters. She loads up nicely. So I'm not restricted to just a couple of bands. Enjoyed your video. Thanks for your presentation. de KQ1K

Hello Peter, Interesting vertical. I built the 17M trap antenna combined with an extension wire as per your previous talk on 17m +20m aerial. Put this up on an 8 metre pole, which is mounted on top of a two metre scaffold pole. The vertical wire was terminated on a homebrew EFHW transformer. The first contact I had was on 20M with the Falklands, obviously a good lift at the time but generally good DX on both bands, proving to be a very useful dual band vertical. This setup did not have any radials, apart from the earthed scaffold pole in the ground. I did try various radials which made little difference. Possibly an easy setup for portable use with less requirements for radials. G4PEY

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Ralph. That sounds like great results. Yes the EFHW rarely shows much improvement with radials. The reason I opted for the quarter wave for portable was to keep the mast length down. But I still love the EFHW option. 73 Peter.

I remember in the early 1980's working England and Australia almost daily on 10M with a 1/2 wave CB Vertical and 20 watts!

Hi Peter Over the years I’ve experimented with raised radials and ground mounted radials and my own experience is that height and elevated radials produced better results dx wise.73 Gm4zji Chris

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Many thanks for that info. That seems to be the majority view. 73 Peter

Thanks, another great idea that is easy to set up. I am going to have to try this before the weather changes.

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Have fun!

Folks in the US are selling old wind sailboard sets. Having bought one in 2019, I realized the 14-foot carbon fiber mast may just very well become a sturdy vertical antenna very soon. :)

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the info! 73 Peter

I haven't done very precise tests but a couple of elevated radials work as well as a dozen on the ground. Les Moxon in HF Antennas had quite strong views that even one resonant counterpoise for a vertical would be good enough.

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Yes interesting stuff. Thanks for the input. 73 Peter.

@peterscrimshaw8437

2 жыл бұрын

M0HSG. Yes correct, I only have one 5 metre long counterpoise for my elevated 20 metre 1/4 wave vertical and it works very well. My 5 meter long vertical is on top of my garage and is far better for DX than my windom dipole antenna even for Europe stations. I compared my two atennas by transmitting on FT8 and checking the results on PSK reporter. A very good way of assessing antennas.

You asked about how to see the difference if you go from, say, 4 to 24 radials? One simple answer is to use a field strength meter before and after the change. The radials would normally increase transmission efficiency (reduce ground loss) more than receive sensitivity. Be sure to put the FSM in exactly the same location for every measurement. (It would help if you invent and sell a remote-reading Field Strength Meter!)

Through my experience and antenna works fine as long as you can get the swr's all the way down to one on whatever frequency you're using. I prefer antennas with sliding load coils that way I can fine-tune the swrs whenever I switch frequency or band.

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, but don’t get too hung up on 1:1 VSWR. 73 Peter

👍👍👍

I have an elevated 30m 1/4 wave vertical, about 3m above ground with 30 odd length elevated radials plus the colour bond shed roof as a counterpoise. I can compare the vertical against a resonant 30m inverted V dipole at 10m above ground. The vertical absolutely outperforms the inverted V by 3 to 5 S points on DX from VK to EU NA.

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Many thanks. Great you have room for 30 elevated radials. Proves the point about raising the vertical abi 3 ground. 73 Peter.

I have read some well known authors, who show with modeling, that 4 elevated radials of 1/4 wave length are a very good ground plane. With a permanent installation the radials and antenna base can be elevated 3M on poles. So they are above the garden, and unlikely to be touched while your transmitting.

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

I will be covering this in a video, soon. 73 Peter

This is the same functionality as the Buddipole/Buddistick verticals. I raise my full-size (no coil) 20-meter Buddipole vertical with the Versatee about 2.4 meters off the ground for a lower take off angle. I attach two or three counterpoises, which are tuned for the band, elevated from 2.4 meters to 1 meter. I work DX all over Europe, South America and North America.

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Richard, thanks for that. Not sure the angle of radiation would change, but more sky seems to be one of the reasons and of course a much better reflector. 73 Peter.

@richegan7381

2 жыл бұрын

@@watersstanton That said, my main antenna for FT8/FT4 is a 10-20-40 meter shortened efhw vertical from Hyend Fed antennas. It is supported on a ...12-meter Spider pole! I work most of Europe everyday now on 20, and 40 meters...even 17 with an ATU. I use just 35 watts.

very nice video Petter thanks for the info allan g6tmo

Hello Peter, I’m putting up a vertical soon, i’ll be putting elevated radials as the bottom of the vertical be 1.5 mtrs, I’m going to try 1 quarter wave elevated radials for each band also a ground stake as well, i will try this first then possibly play with the length of the radials and quantity

@watersstanton

11 ай бұрын

Sounds interesting. Go for it.

I agree, ive only been licensed for two years. I started out with a g5rv and then perchased a dx commander after been told i need low angle for dx. But the g5rv totally out performed the dx commander.

@michaelglauser7877

2 жыл бұрын

I use the DX Commander regularly, for 3 yrs now. Much lower noise RX than a Double Zepp at 35'. About the same on the far end for what I'm transmitting, so a big win for me. As always, YMMV. Remember the #1 rule in Antennas... Everything affects Everything. ;-)

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Many thanks. At the end of the day, results speak for themselves. The surroundings can have a big effect on results. 73 Peter

Excellent video thanks Peter . i purchased the 12m spiderpole and at the moment im experimenting with different ways of winding the antenna wire up it eg inductive vs linear . Also experimenting by coiling the wire at the base and top etc . Which way would you recommend ? As for the pole itself , there's no comparison in quality between the spiderpole and the cheaper ones . Just last night we had horrific winds here and the top sections of the spiderpole were virtually horizontal but survived.

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Many thanks. The advantage of base loading Is that you need less inductance. However I favour centre loading as this is more efficient. 73 Peter

@aeron-mw7ofs

2 жыл бұрын

@@watersstanton many thanks Peter, weather permitting I'll experiment tomorrow . Would spade crimp connections be ok to connect the wire of the antenna ?

For 20 meters, would a Buddipole with two tuned counterpoise wires accomplish about the same thing? Thanks.

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Certainly far better than a random radial on the ground. You will be a few dB down because of the shorter antenna but should work fine. 73 Peter.

Very interesting and well presented, I think we both read the same document. The document does not completely correlate with Rudy Severn's entire work on the subject. The efficiencies in the article appear to suggest that the just two elevated radials should present an impedance of just a few ohms which I don't believe. (I may be wrong). My own 1/4 wave vertical with some buried radials under the garden and a few copper stakes 1m or so away from the base appears to have a resistive impedance close to 100 ohms which suggests to me that I have about 60 ohms in the ground system. I shall continue adding radials...

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Hi there. Yes I agree that "a few ohms is" totally wrong. I am surprised you are measuring 100 ohms impedance on the installation you describe. Check the VSWR to see if that figure stacks up. Thanks for watching. 73 Peter.

@g0fvt

2 жыл бұрын

@@watersstanton thanks for the reply Peter, yes the figure is surprising, I live in Norfolk with a comparatively high water table and expected 10 ohms or so. My SWR measurement does not correlate to the impedance components I measured at the antenna, The worst thing about having "too much" test equipment is getting an agreement. Like the man with two watches.... Subjectively the vertical away from the house is far less noisy than the doublet was closer to the house. FWIW modelling a quarterwave suggests that making it a little longer raises the impedance usefully though of course it becomes reactive. We have all become slaves to SWR, it is not the way we should design antennas...... 73

Great idea! I have the pole and I ordered the box from you. I would love to get ahold of a tripod that works with the spiderbeam pole.

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

The tripod I used was an old one but I cannot remember where it came from. For home use drive a piece of angle iron into the ground and strap the pole so it sits in the angle dimension, 73 Peter.

@Roddy1965

2 жыл бұрын

@@watersstanton Checkout vids on pole support from ve3twm

Do the 2 angled radials have any effect on the directionality of the antenna?

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Not that I can detect.

It's so funny how many of us hams are thinking in parallel. I'm reading chapter 3 of the ARRL antenna book on this subject matter. It is true that elevated radials give you a better impedance match and lower SWR, but how many? Or can 18 radials at 1/8 λ be enough and better elevated. Also, you are correct, you should do your own testing. For me 18 radials on the ground, give me a suitable SWR, but when lift it, it's goes down, very much.

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Great to hear from you. I have a vertical here with ground radials. I am experimenting by adding two elevated radials. So far it seems there is an improvement. But early days. 73 Peter

Hi Peter, what makes it more difficult is the new Regulation, putting up any antenna now ion a small garden takes some working out, these antennas now have to be away from the public.

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Well I would rather be a few metres away on 14MHz rather than a few cm away on 144NHz with a5W handy! Cheers. Peter

@markbennett6818

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Brian . I agree. General public is classed as family. The calculations I have done says 2.8m clearance on 20m using 100watts . To follow the Ofcom rules I do not see a way of using ground or close to ground mounted verticals at any real power levels ... At the moment I have sandpiper vertical in the corner of the garden which will be non compliant and an NVIS for 40 and 80 meters . At the moment I am at a loss what to do unless I reduce power to about 30 watts ( compliant due to losses and low gain according to Ofcom calculator)

@brian.7966

2 жыл бұрын

@@watersstanton very trues thank Peter.

Proof is in the pudding Ol’ Chap! Hope that I wrote that ok. 73 de Texas AF5U

Interesting video. I made my vertical with around 10 radials after watching some DX Commander videos. I might try this, how long were your radials, maybe I missed that in the video, are they also 5m?

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

They need to be a quarter wave long. I am finding that even if you have buried radials, a couple of elevated ones improve things BUT only on the band on which they are resonant. Try it.

@nijurosu2169

2 жыл бұрын

@@watersstanton I will do, thanks for answering.

@DanMarkland

2 жыл бұрын

Would it work having 4 1/8 wave elevated radials instead of 2 1/4 waves?

@77appyi

Жыл бұрын

@@DanMarkland i did some modeling on the 11-meter CB band of the Sirio 827 that has 8 number 1/8 wave radials. the height was much higher than is being talked about here like 40 feet up so may make a difference ..i modeled a 5/8th wave with four 1/4 wave radials ...i then chopped them in 1/2 to 1/8 wave and the take-off angel of the signal went much higher..not so good .. then i modeled the antenna with 8 short radials and it made no difference to the take of the angel,it stays high adding the extra number of short radials

Great video mate. Would you consider to try out christman phased array 2 element vertical? This one very interesting topic. De 9w8zzk

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

May try it out at some point in the future. 73 Peter.

Verticals antennas work But a beam is a different story. Verticals are cheaper 73 KQ4CD Paul

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Correct!

If you havent yet got your foundation can you still get the tranciever and antenna you want and set it all up and just listen etc

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Yes you can. You don’t need a licence to own a transceiver and you are free to do whatever yiu like - just don’ use the transmitter. 73 Peter.

I have often want to do antenna experiments… but it does cost $$$

I remember someone saying that the *TOTAL LENGTH* of all radials was the goal. IOW, if you have had twice as many radials, each could be *HALF* as long. OK, then my devious mind got to thinking, what if you had _”infinite radials”?_ You could supposedly make each of them *ZERO LENGTH!* For example, an implementation might be a small solid copper disk. Obviously, something is wrong here! To be even more ridiculous, if you had a ground plate that was a _”fractal”_ shape at its perimeter, then the circumference would (theoretically) be *INFINITE!* 😀 *73 de AF6AS*

How old were you in 1960 ??. 😮

@watersstanton

5 ай бұрын

17.

The intro music reminds me of Benny Hill😀

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Ha Ha. Yes see what you mean. It was a short composition by me in the studio! 73 Peter.

So Vertical is the way to go if you have no other choice… for me the dipole is cheaper and better if u have the room!

A vertical antenna with one or more tuned horizontal counterpoise (only one is required) results in a type "L" antenna one of few antennas with a natural 50. Ohm feedpoint impedance. It is more or less a vertical dipole, but bent. 120 radials was once required because the soil in some places destroyed many wires in 10 years or so. More than 16 buried radials the law if diminishing returns take over. Ron W4BIN

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for your input. 73 Peter.

1st........

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

Well done!

I have 2 x12m spiderbeam masts 1 holds a 5/8 wave virtical dipole 12.4 ft from the choke to the ground it dont need ground wires over the last 12 weeks its been outstanding on 10m my other pole holds the 15m Version the choke only 5ft off the groung these anttenas are made from coxal cable and are base fed Virtical wire anttenas have allways worked well for me but not a patch on these dipoles my 12m poles are 7 years old but now are looking old keep up the good work chris G0WFH

Without an antenna there wouldn't be radio

@watersstanton

2 жыл бұрын

And without radio there would be no antennas!

@Allthingsradio

2 жыл бұрын

Correct

@Allthingsradio

2 жыл бұрын

Bit like chicken and egg