You obviously have not read No Second Place Winner by Bill Jordan. According to him a few border patrol men were involved in a shootout with Mexican dudes. One of the border patrol officers emptied his .357 magnum and saved the brass because he was used to do it given that he reloaded his own ammo and was saving the brass to reload later. That's the way I remember it.

@LuckyGunner

Жыл бұрын

Hey, it looks like you are right! I just looked it up, and there is indeed a story like that in Bill Jordan's book. However, the officer in question was not killed, and, like you mentioned, he saved the brass for reloading, not because of department policy. The relevant quote: "Well, after the fight someone noted that McKone's pocket was bulging and politely inquired as to what might be spoiling the drape of his trousers. Puzzled, Sam thrust in an exploring hand. The pocket was full of fired cases. During the fight, without realizing he was doing so, McKone, an old reloader, had saved every empty!" Quite a bit different than the mythical version of the story that is usually repeated, but this would certainly explain how it got started. For anyone interested, a full PDF of Jordan's book is available at the link below, and the quote above appears on page 106. ia903208.us.archive.org/14/items/No_Second_Place_Winner_Bill_Jordan/No_Second_Place_Winner_Bill_Jordan_text.pdf EDIT: It's also worth noting that in the story Jordan relates, the suspect was 200 yards away.

@Matt-xc6sp

Жыл бұрын

@@LuckyGunner literally “is that .357 magnum in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?”

@jimyeats

Жыл бұрын

@@LuckyGunnerSuch a polite and educated response to a post that was so arrogantly typed. Keep up the good vids.

@minuteman2547

Жыл бұрын

Still anecdotal information. I think Pavlov needs to be disproven before I stop training in the methods of warfighting.

@johnwolfen4243

Жыл бұрын

Yes, this is the story I was told when I first started out back in 1978. I was also told about the California HP incident.

The Army conditioned me to slap the M16 mag against my Kevlar to seat rounds. After Desert Storm, I was due to requalify at Bragg. My new unit didn’t require kevlars on the range. Almost knocked myself out in the prone position.

@itsapittie

Жыл бұрын

Fortunately, post-military I developed the habit of hitting the mag against my heel instead. 😂 Obviously I wouldn't do that in the heat of battle but I do it immediately after loading the magazine.

@widehead1234

Жыл бұрын

Well that story is made up...never heard of a single time of anyone going to the shooting range on Bragg or any army base without ACH/helmet.

@widehead1234

Жыл бұрын

You can always tell the the fakers from those that actually served because the civilians all seem to think that the army is some lawless place where you can just kill people and do whatever you want when in reality the military is nothing but structure and rules

@albertptran

Жыл бұрын

LOL

@drain_001

Жыл бұрын

Dang that must have been nice, I hated my kevlar.

Paul Harrell put it best. Law Enforcement Training follows a set path and doesn't deviate very much. Then about every 20 years, there will be some major incident, usually where the police get the short end of the stick. That incident then drastically changes everything about the training police get.

@JesseGacria357

Жыл бұрын

I’ve must have seen that video 6 times in its entirety. Can’t get enough of it.

@markh.6687

Жыл бұрын

The rise of police tactical rifles came from various shootings where either cops were wiped out, or couldn't even reach the bad guy(s) that had rifles. The Univ. of Texas tower shooting (1966), where civilians used their rifles to pin down and help police storm the tower, as well as the North Hollywood shootout where the cops had to run to local gun stores to get rifles while the offenders had handgun rounds bouncing off their body armor are two examples. But some departments didn't learn; witness the Vegas shootings where cops had to get into the hotel to get the bad guy, instead of reaching out and putting him down a lot quicker from outside with a rifle, even after they knew where the bad guy was firing from.

@El_Kalvoda

Жыл бұрын

@@markh.6687 great comment 👍

@RogerCharlamange

Жыл бұрын

@@markh.6687 The Vegas shooting is a pretty awful example. He was on the 32nd floor, over 100 meters up in the air, 400 hundred more meters away from the venue, in a low profile firing position, probably in the prone. If you shoot with regularity you should know that aiming either up, or down, at a target actually changes the ballistic math of the shot. Not to mention, 100 meters in a straight line is 100 meters, but at an angle from below, 100 meters becomes a longer and longer distance when viewed from further away. Like, if you were standing at the building, the shooter was 100 meters above you, but if you were 100 meters from the window, then the shooter is now several more meters away from you, because of the distance created by the angle. So you wanted cops to just, open fire on the 32nd floor of a populated hotel and pray to got that not only were they good enough shots to accurately engage a man further out than even the military marksmanship course has them shoot. You wanted the cops to be taking 500-700 meter shots, aiming at an angle into the air. I really hope you understand how fucking stupid that would have been. They almost certainly wouldn't have hit him, the bullets were more likely to be short, and hit windows BELOW him, or be high and go through the ceiling into the next floor up. There was no way a beat cop, even with a rifle in his trunk was gonna get that guy. He had to be stormed

@markh.6687

Жыл бұрын

@@RogerCharlamange Sorry; the real world means sometimes you take the shot you can get, not the shot you want. And if someone had a good long-range rifle and scope, they could have at least pinned him down while officers made their way to boot the door. Some SWAT members now carry their rifles in their squads, not locked up in armories for just such situations.

I watched Paul Harrell's excellent video on the 1986 FBI Miami shooting where he mentions that the pocket full of brass story from the Newhall shooting probably didn't happen despite it changing law enforcement training for years after, and thus the 1986 FBI shooting being so well documented was a plus in learning what really happened and what to do.

@skepticalbadger

Жыл бұрын

So... Lying is... Good?

@Seth9809

Жыл бұрын

I remember that video!

@igorbarbosa4044

Жыл бұрын

That highlights that KZreadrs who said paul harrell is Full of shit probably didn't watched his videos (not saying this is the case for this channel)

@ZSC001

Жыл бұрын

Only issue was the lesson to be learned from the 86 FBI shootout was is you should always carry a rifle if you expect a shootout. ESPECIALLY if the bad guys are known to carry long guns. Essentially one guy with a mini-14 controlled the outcome of that shootout. For whatever reason the lesson that was “learned” was .38 & 9mm suck and you got 10mm and later .40 out of the deal. Kinda weird how that worked out.

@tidewater5679

Жыл бұрын

​​@@ZSC001He did not "control" the situation at all with a Mini-14, suspect one and two were shot countless times. Hell one of the FBI agents had a *SHOTGUN* that was used to kill one of the suspects attempting to flee. Even during that situation, the FBI teams that were patrolling the area had MP5s. Just this specific team did not. What the FBI did not do right was not having double stack semi automatic pistols standard issue to anyone but a few special unit guys. The whole fight was done using revolvers from .38 SPC to .357 Magnum, aside from one (or two) 9mm handgusn that was not too effective as said one of the agents involved *LOST* his glasses in the prior crash before the shootout started. If anything, it's the reason why JHP in general are developed a lot more better and why standard issue double stack handguns are now policy. Both suspects were unarmored, the shotguns and MP5s they had were certainly going to dispatch them with ease. However, because of at the time of the very early development of JHP loads, the FBI wanted a bigger caliber that could *DO* more in a double stack handgun that can easily hold 12-17 total. The Hollywood shootout is when patrol rifles became a must have for all patrol cars. As the shotgun and handguns that the PD had were ineffective with dealing with the level 2A/3A body armor they had. Only dedicated SWAT times had rifles issued to them. Body armor in general is the reason *WHY* the whole idea of the sub machine gun and pistol caliber itself have gradually been replaced by the rifle and carbine platform.

As a revolver guy, I am very surprised by the quality and quantity of information here. Thanks a lot!

@In.Darkness

Жыл бұрын

It's an art 👍

@CMDR.Gonzo.von.Richthofen

Жыл бұрын

Dig deeper into the archives. He's got quite a few excellent revolver videos👍🏼

@LuckyGunner

Жыл бұрын

Your comment just reminded me that we don't have a playlist of all our revolver videos. So I just remedied that oversight. Enjoy! kzread.info/head/PLYqiOqBy2WM_4HPqcIUtEaeMX00uqAoM1

@CMDR.Gonzo.von.Richthofen

Жыл бұрын

Hey! We made a thing happen!

@sisleymichael

Жыл бұрын

@@LuckyGunner Nice. New guy here.

I want to train how I fight but they don't want me running around the range jumping over tables and hiding behind walls while firing at the paper target.

@N238E

Жыл бұрын

Find a competition range.

@Tuton25

Жыл бұрын

I want to train how I fight as well but the range staff gets really upset when the handle of rum comes out of my range bag...

@davidgates1122

Жыл бұрын

I don't know of a publically accessible range that allows draw from a holster, although I don't deny that they exist.

@stevecochran9078

Жыл бұрын

Too many untrained boomer Fudds run ranges. Find a different range.

@oklahomahank2378

Жыл бұрын

@@davidgates1122 Try IDPA or USPSA.

As a retired police officer I never followed the instructions of not looking at my gun while reloading. I always practiced looking back-and-forth at my hands and the target without moving my head and I was always just a little bit faster than the others officers on the line coming backup on target.

In my own academy class this very issue was brought up. None of our instructors believed it and couldn't say where this myth came from. Our range training NEVER allowed the pocketing of empties, though not because of Newhall, but because it had been long-considered a bad practice. Two of the lessons that Newhall DID teach was to choose an advantageous place to make a stop, and to factor in back up units when considering stopping someone reported to be armed. The most important lesson from Newhall was the same lesson all shoot-outs taught: get hits.

@titanscerw

Жыл бұрын

This

Man. Watching the 13 second reload makes me feel a little better about my sub 5 second reloads with a speed loader. Revolvers are a whole other animal. Fun as heck, but different.

@mattmarzula

Жыл бұрын

Magazine reloads make you do a smooth greased robotic action. Revolvers make you learn to fidget. Especially with cramped unchamfered cylinders that aren't cut for moon clips like a 686+.

@AdamOwenBrowning

Жыл бұрын

God knows what serious combat stress does to that time.

@loquat44-40

Жыл бұрын

While I always carry a reload of 17 rounds in my pocket, my training is not built around a rapid reload. True when possible I would change out magazines after the gun has been fired. but say with 15 rounds I hope I am an adequate enough of a shot to have neutralized the issue. Now if you are a 'gangsta' type with a glock equipped with auto switch and a 33 happy stick, speed loading another happy stick after the first one is empty might have merit in the eyes of some; it has none for me. I normally train to put the changed out magazine in my pocket and do not like leaving evidence around. I know of some that reload their guns while wearing plastic gloves. Your shooting may be moral, just, and self defense, but still could be convicted. If running is an option, do it, and if not, do what you have to in order to survive. Maybe you decide not to stick around and putting all of your brass in your pocket does also have merit.

@douglasmilburn3875

17 күн бұрын

@@loquat44-40you probably shouldn’t put that on the internet lol also, you can leave a scene if you’re unsafe while calling 911. Clearing evidence from a crime scene is probably a bad idea for a self defender. Not a lawyer, just a hunch lol

@loquat44-40

17 күн бұрын

@@douglasmilburn3875 I was just discussing options and my running is to avoid a fight, not to avoid the consequences of the shooting. I would try to be the first to call 911 and inform the world that I was victim and forced to defend myself. Remember i said: ''If running is an option, do it, and if not, do what you have to in order to survive. "" In order to survive means no more than fight to live.

I started my LE career in 1987, and we were still using revolvers then. We carried 6 in the gun and 2 speed loaders. Some older guys also carried either dump pouches or loops. They would explain to us that the dump pouches or the loops were for partial reloads. I carried a model 60 as a backup, and we were not told about Newhall. We were taught about the FBI Miami shootout during our basic 40 hours of firearms training. Most of us felt pretty safe with 18 rounds of 38 or 357 and some people scratched their heads at me for carrying a backup. As if it was overkill. I still carry two handguns when I am on duty but not revolvers.

@ftdefiance1

Жыл бұрын

I always saw the back up was "Onion Field Insurance"

@alastor8091

Жыл бұрын

Why not an auto gun like a 1911 or a Hi Power? They'd been around for ages at that point.

@mrguiltyfool

Жыл бұрын

At the end of the days, it is all about how many rds u can throw down range. At least that's what US military concluded hence the switch to 556

@Isaac_5.56x45

Жыл бұрын

@@alastor8091 I'm assuming because of the limited budget most police departments have.

@alastor8091

Жыл бұрын

@@Isaac_5.56x45 surely there'd have been plenty of cheap surplus off of the Philippines, WW1, WW2, Korea, and Vietnam.

I 11:52 began my 38 year police career in the mid 80’s carrying a S&W Model 19. Everything you said about police training in this video was spot on. This video should be required viewing for trainees. Awesome content.

@LuckyGunner

Жыл бұрын

Thanks, Chuck!

Great video! Scott Reitz (LAPD 1970s) has commented that speedloaders (well-established in PPC competition) were shunned by leadership because they didn't look as neat during an inspection. PPC competition mandated draws and reloads on the clock and allowed two-hand stances, all in common use for many years before Newhall. Practical shooting (Leatherslap, SWPL) existed by 1970 but was not as common at the time. Competition shooters knew a better way back then, but none of it was in common use for police training.

Working in LE in the late 70's & 80's, we used dump pouches, worn on the strong hand side between the holster and belt buckle. We would hold the revolver in the weak hand, holding the open cylinder and dumping the bullets into the strong hand, making the loading faster. Closing the cylinder with the weak hand while grabbing the grip with the strong hand, then firing. Makes the process faster and more controlled. Thank goodness I never needed to test it.

I graduated the Las Vegas Metro PD academy in 1979 and I can attest to the propagation of this pocket brass myth by our range instructors. In fact, until I watched this video, I still believed every word of it. Thank you for setting the record straight.

I really appreciate this video! I became an Air Force Small Arms Instructor in 1980 when we still carried S&W M15s and we too reloaded from dump pouches. I'd been told the story of the Newhall incident during my tech school and repeated it in revolver classes ever since. I'd heard that he dumped brass in his hand and then moved it to his pocket, and we taught to just dump empties on the ground. In the AF we wore our dump pouches facing up so that if you didn't get all 6 out initially the pouch would swing back up and you wouldn't lose the round. Later, I found that Bianchi Speed Strips would fit inside of our dump pouches and I started carrying my ammo in those. I turned the rest of the instructors I worked with onto them and eventually most of the Cops I worked with but the AF never officially adopted anything beyond the dump pouch.

@FCV0511

Жыл бұрын

Speed Strips in a dump pouch is a brilliant idea in the absence of a speedloader. Thanks for sharing that!

Chris… the consistency and quality of your videos over the years is just remarkable. They’re just so good… and lean, too. Succinct, fascinating, informative… we really appreciate these. Thanks.

Wonderful example of how the dump pouch has transitioned from providing extra ammo, to now just being a handy place to put empty magazines while reloading a fresh one. From a finely crafted leather case with a snap that fit a precise amount of cartridges, to an economically manufactured duck cotton or canvas receptacle with a drawstring and Velcro. There's a lot to learn from history. I wonder what people 500 years from now will think of us.

I just want to say at 10:30 when you're pulling that trigger on an empty chamber, I marveled at how steady the gun was held during those dry DA trigger pulls.

We really need a part 3 to the backpack gun series.

Of all the channels that have the best of the best cameras and microphones, it's never refined with harsh audio and bad lighting. This channel has always had amazing audio and the best lighting/camera work with nice simple editing

Can't imagine rolling up , seeing too dead cops on the ground, emptying my revolver while taking fire, and having to possess to fine motor skills to load single 357 Magnum rounds in the dark

Thanks man, I was really looking forward to this after reading it a dozen times in YT comments.

I know a Highway patrol officer who was in a shootout 35 years ago that had to reload multiple times via speed loaders. Fortunately, our officer prevailed. The fight was critiqued and all his empty brass were found in neat little piles. He said in training they ejected the spent brass into coffee cans. All his brass piles were smaller than a coffee can. The coffee cans immediately disappeared from the range.

Really great video! Getting the facts right is the best starting place for learning from mistakes.

In 1970 the only high-capacity semiauto in common use was the Browning Hi Power which is a single-action 9mm. Police departments were very reluctant to adopt a single-action pistol with a round in the chamber. When I was in law enforcement 1975-1985, we were aware of the Newhall shooting but a transition to semiautos had to wait until the advent of DA/SA pistols. A few departments changed to semiautos a bit earlier when the S&W model 39 came out but it wasn't a high capacity pistol by today's standards and most departments waited for double-stack pistols before making the switch from revolvers.

@jimyeats

Жыл бұрын

I could see the reluctance there, and some of the concerns make sense for the time for sure. With that said, even a non-high capacity semi auto like the 1911 would have provided significant increased firepower when you factor in the much faster reload time. I think the question, “why didn’t local PD’s of 1970 adopt the 1911 when the military had been using it for 55 years?” is a valid one, and illustrated how different policing was at the time, and how strong tradition can be.

@jaydemay7

Жыл бұрын

All true! Several departments in So Cal used the S&W mod 39 until S&W came out with the mod 59. The latter had several issues. Failure to feed was the primary malfunction. However, that was quickly resolved with gen 2 mags. I was with OC Sheriff's department and long carried the revolver. We did however have speed loaders. The dept issued 18 rounds of 38 spl 158 grn semi wad cutters. 357 was not allowed. This visit back to Newhall brings back a lot of memories!

@itsapittie

Жыл бұрын

@@jimyeats The reluctance to adopt the 1911 or the Hi Power was primarily one of perception. Police administrators believed that a "cocked and locked" SA pistol would result in more inadvertent discharges. That may or may not have been true. They also believed -- again, rightly or wrongly -- that the sight of a pistol with its hammer back would frighten the public. This is probably less likely to be true since all the holsters of the day for SA pistols had a strap over the back of the slide in front of the hammer and I doubt even 1% of the public would have noticed. Nevertheless, that was a widespread belief among law enforcement administrators.

@josephknaak9034

Жыл бұрын

Illinois State Police we’re I believe the first major department to issue semi autos, S&W model 39 in 1967. Though Texas Rangers have been carrying Colt 1911 sense, well probably 1912

@327SixShooter

Жыл бұрын

​​​@@jimyeats another reason for reluctance was ammunition technology of the time. Reliable jacketed hp ammo that would both feed reliably in a semi auto and expand didn't come about until the late 80s or early 90s. With revolvers, most police used semi jacketed hollow points, which are copper jacketed at the bottom at the bottom of the bullet, but the hollow tip is exposed soft lead. This type of ammo is still a great choice for revolvers because they expand reliably almost all the time and they don't require quite as high of a velocity to expand as a fully jacketed hp. But sjhp ammo will choke up and jam a semi auto. The soft lead tip causes feeding issues.

Thank you for this - your tactical analysis was really well explained and I would like to see more of this type of content if you had time and capacity for in the future!

When I attended the Tennessee law enforcement training academy this same story was taught as a way to make the cadets aware of counterproductive training methods to separate range mentality versus what people can revert back to during high levels of stress. I later researched this incident and found out as you state in your video how the story evolved into the lore that exists today. Excellent video. Do I believe that people can revert to certain levels of training and familiarity under certain conditions such as stress? Absolutely. Training does prepare various people for various challenges and situations.

Man great content as always! I really enjoy your videos and appreciate your outlook on all aspects regarding the gun community. I don’t have a source for this however, my brother who is a Texas Ranger told me about it. A Texas highway patrolman was in a gunfight with an individual on the highway. From what I understood they both ran their guns dry and the suspect took off on foot. The trooper laid his gun on the ground at slide lock and placed the magazine on top of it in a x pattern. He took off after the suspect on foot and arrested him. In the ois investigation they discovered his gun on the ground where he laid it. They said in training when the officers guns ran empty they would place them on the table to go check their target. Thankfully the trooper was ok and it wasn’t a fatal mistake. DPS has since changed their methods of training for officers.

Excellent breakdown. Sometimes the takeaway’s people focus on leads to worse training.

Just heard this last week in training. They emphasized keeping your gun in your work space while reloading so you can keep eyes on bad guy and quick glance to insert mag if you need to.

@LuckyGunner

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, and now we've all been trained to point our muzzles over the berm or at the ceiling just as we jam live rounds in them and we call it "learning from our mistakes." Hmmm...

@bryanmcdermott4204

Жыл бұрын

​@@LuckyGunner I think the practice of "doing work (reload) in front of your eyes" makes sense for practical application, but some ranges may not be safe for such a maneuver with live rounds. It seems the skill could be worked with empties even though the feel would be different.

@PastaLaVista.

Жыл бұрын

@@LuckyGunner hey if you really want to train like you’ll fight, I can promise your gun won’t only be pointing in a safe direction the entirety of the fight. That’s where other rules need to be followed to pick up the slack. Finger off the trigger

@burnyburnoutze2nd

Жыл бұрын

​@@LuckyGunner literally my first though when I got taught the same thing during my C7 trainkng in the Canadian Armed Forces. I suspect its predominantly done because its easier amd quicker to train recruits with zero firearms experience to literally shove a rifle in their face to stare at it when reloading while still looking downrange vs the paul harrel method of getting so good at reloading you can do it without needing to look at your rifle while doing it. Military and Police firearms training at the most basic level is seriously overrated from my experience.

I've always been a fan of this channel for it's emphasis on revolver, lever, and pump content. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Chiappa Rhino 200ds as perhaps a next part in your series on "weird" but maybe effective equipment/techniques. Your kel-tec video helped me to move to a classic 870 pump rather than embrace new for the sake of new. Maybe that reverse barrel is the same case or different?

Awesome video! I had never heard of this story before. Very informative and eye opening.

I really appreciate this kind of thoughtful, well researched analysis. Too much of what passes for training ‘wisdom’ these days is based on aphorism, anecdote and an attitude of ‘authority’.

@OrionCorsari

Жыл бұрын

Amen!

Chris your videos are always well-researched and informative, a refreshing change from much of "guntube"

The version I was told was brass lined up on the window ledge he took cover behind, because in the academy they made them line up the brass when reloading on the range. Different story, same point, and probably not true either.

I feel like this may be the single most unbiased and strictly informational video I've ever seen. All while making me watch it to the end. These guy could make infomercials and I'd watch them instead of changing the channel

Excellent video, love the overhead breakdown of the scene.

Thanks for the video. You covered the topic in a thorough and thoughtful way.

Best channel on u tube, I started my career with a SW686 we had speed loaders, best thing ever was the switch to semi automatic pistol. Still haven’t perfected the paper target that shoots back.

Great video as always Chris. Thank you.

@LuckyGunner

Жыл бұрын

Thank you!

Always very interesting and very informative videos !

Charles Askins, in his book Unrepentant Sinner, tells a story on himself where he saved brass during a gunfight during his time in the Border Patrol. He had just bought a new fangled 357 Magnum and had to load his own ammo, owing to 357 being hard to get.

@georgesakellaropoulos8162

Жыл бұрын

Can't you pick up your brass after it's all over? If you get killed, you're not going to need it anyway.

@jic1

9 ай бұрын

Didn't anybody tell him that a .357 Magnum revolver also shoots .38 Special?

Working at 77THstreet LAPD from 1991 to late 1992, I had an old timer (his last day before retirement) hand me his dump pouch and told me how he had used it in the Watts Riots. I carried a 38 spl back up in my left pants pocket and thanked him. I wore and practiced with that dump pouch reloading with a speed strip in it until I left LE. On April 29th 1992. I (along with 30 officers) was surrounded by about 120 angry citizens, one block south of Florence and Normandie. Always practice hard with what you have.

Really enjoy your channel. Would love to see a full overview of newhall

No opinion on this specific story but I do 100% believe that training badly can result in bad or dangerous action in the heat of the moment. Always nice to see an evaluation of a gun culture myth to get some details set straight. Thanks for the video, Chris and LG!

The Newhall incident is fascinating in part because there are still questions about various details due to competing accounts by some investigators and the less thoroughly documented crime scenes as compared to later incidents. While this story is a myth in relation to Newhall, there is a well documented phenomenon commonly referred to as "slip and capture" where an individual under stress will fail to execute a task correctly (slip) and fall back on other training which is inappropriate. This is a huge challenge for pilots who switch equipment and then revert to training for a different aircraft. You might also want to look up Prof John Reason's "swiss cheese model" describing how accidents occur due to a series failures and errors. His model provides support and context for your comment about multiple factors contributing to the incident.

Thanks for the video, it helps to continue to dispel this myth, many articles have been written on it but the primary proof was the found empty casings on the ground and absolutely no mention of empty casings found in the pocket in the coroners report. Some other things that contributed to that fateful night was CHP policy, one thing in their training that was engrained to the officers was uniform appearance. As the first back up unit arrived on scene, both officers took precious seconds to put their hats on as they exited the car because it was strict CHP policy to have a certain uniform appearance outside the patrol cars. Both hats can be seen in the crime scene photos, one on the ground and one on the trunk of the radio car. Speedy loaders for revolvers were very commonplace during this time but CHP officers were prohibited from purchasing and wearing them because it was perceived by CHP management as looking "too aggressive", so the officers were condemned to wearing dump pouches. Additionally, there was also a great reluctance to deploy shotguns on a routine basis as it was also policy at the time to have a paper tape seal on the shotgun. If the seal was broken for whatever reason during the shift, the officer had to submit a memo to the watch commander as to why they chambered the shotgun, too many memos and an officer could be perceived as being to aggressive and would be removed from the field. Not being familiar with the weapon led to one officer jacking a live round out onto the pavement and leaving only three rounds to fight with, who knows what might have happened if he had the fourth round still in the shotgun. Finally, back up guns were also prohibited at the time of the incident, both suspects kept discarding and grabbing fresh weapons during the fight while the officers had to struggle to reload or transition from shotgun to revolver instead of deploying back up guns and saving precious seconds they did not have. However, this tragedy changed policy and tactics across the nation and has saved innumerable lives as a result.

It happened in the State of Maryland many years ago by a Maryland State Trooper. During annual firearms qualifications they wanted you to only load five rounds in your revolver. And some Officers would police up their fired brass as they moved thru the various stages

Love these videos. Thanks for the info

Thank you for covering this topic 👍

I qualified for the first time in the late 70s with the FPS (Federal Protective Service). IIRC the Q fire started with 12 rounds at 10 ft in 20 seconds reloading from a drop pouch. A rubber "speed" strip made that smoother and more reliable. I still use that as they are flatter than a speedloader. Still have my 1974 Ruger Speed Six. Six for sure. Well, sure enough.

Great content, thank you gentlemen!

I generally carry a stub nose .357 Mag /.38 Spl as my EDC. Awhile back I bought a case of Czech made 7.62×25mm Tokarev packed on 8 rd striper clips (later learned the ammo was a +p variant made for the VZ52 submachine gun) . What I have found is these striper clips make EXCELLENT speed strips for any .357 Mag /.38 Spl revolver. You can load them up and use two chamber of your cylinder to space the rounds out on the clip in such a way as to reload two rounds at once.

My first carry gun was a revolver, so I did a lot of reading on how to run one properly. I had to track down older books as running a sixgun properly is a dying art. One thing I encountered, which was a factor in Newhall, was training with carry ammo. Many cops used wadcutters at the range, which were easy to hit with. However when they went on duty they would load up with full power magnum ammo, which, if they hadn't spent a lot of time training with, they tended to be more inaccurate due to the greater recoil.

I’m one of those cops from yesteryear (retired in ‘97) that trained to pocket my empty brass on the range. In 1974, about six years into my career, I had to reload my issued Colt Detective Special under fire and can assure you I did not “police” my brass. I just left it on the street for the shooting team to collect as evidence in the aftermath. Our range training at the time did not include combat reloading (I used an unauthorized speedloader in my jacket pocket) or how to fight w/our issued weapons.

I second your recommendation on "Newhall Shooting--A Tactical Analysis" and I have two copies--one well read and one pristine for my archive. Bill Jordan's "No Second Place Winner" recounts one law enforcement officer shooting his revolver to empty and then reloading to prevail and survive his gunfight--to be surprised by the discovery that he had shoved his empty cartridge casings in his pocket. The Model 64 is similar enough to Officer Alleyn's Model 19 to make for a valid test. I trained with the Model 65 for an armed security contract and was taught to load two or three chambers with loose cartridges (or load two at a time)--and got my speed reload down to three seconds with HKS-10A speed loaders and a lot of practice during my security guard training. Skills decay and I have preferred automatic pistols since the Seventies. One thing that Newhall had in common with the 1980 NORCO gun fight was that police riot guns were loaded with only the four #00 buckshot shells in the magazine of Remington's 870 shotgun, the chamber was left empty and the fore end was taped shut, the evidence tape initialed and logged at the beginning of the shift. Officer Frago may or may not have chambered a round in his chamber--the evidence isn't clear. Officer Alleyn fired three of his buckshot shells and ejected a live shell--the sequence is unknown. At NORCO one veteran police officer (name escapes me at the moment) fired off his entire four buckshot shells and then caught a bullet in the eye, killing him. The Old School police were unilaterally disarmed to spare their agency from being sued for excessive force, and most of the time four buckshot shells is enough. Officer Frago didn't get off a shot before dying. CHP attacked buttstock carriers to its Remington shotguns immediately after and added six more buckshot shells--and ditched the damned evidence tape sealing the shotgun's action closed. Guns are bullet launchers--no bullets, and the gun is an expensive club that's ill-shaped for use as a melee weapon. One item of note is that CHP trained and may have qualified with the .38 Special 148 grain wadcutter in a light target loading, but the issue ammunition was .38 Special 158 grain lead round nose from the lowest bidder. Three of the dead CHP officers loaded their .357 magnum ammunition and Officer Frago loaded his revolver with the Super Vel .38 Special 110 grain load--basically a +P loading before the term was used. No records exist that show the officers qualifying with duty ammo or the hotter loads that they carried, but all four were probably proficient with their preferred ammunition. In November 1950 a pair of Puerto Rican separatists stormed the White House to kill President Truman--the Secret Service and trained and qualified with .38 Special 148 grain wadcutters and their duty ammunition was .38 Special 158 grain lead round nose. The 148 grain wadcutter has a different point of impact from the 158 grain lead round nose, enough to lose points during a revolver match--and to lose lives in gunfights. The myth of a pocket filled with spent brass is enduring.

@oklahomahank2378

Жыл бұрын

Massad Ayoob wrote that the “train with .38, carry .357” model was largely discarded after the Puerto Rican terrorist attack on Truman’s residence across from the White House. An officer missed due to the difference in point of impact. P.S. just ordered more of that sweet Hornady 110 .38 for my snubbie.

Excelent video! This is a very good reason to train every time you can, no matter what you have a revolver or semi auto!

I trained with speed loaders in '81. I think they were Safariland. I remember being trained. "Do not pick up your brass!" But I wonder, where was the shotgun? Our service ammo was Super Vel.

I became certified as a Police Firearms Instructor in 1978. At that time our department was carrying Model 66 S&Ws. We were told about the "pocket full of brass" and instructed to rapidly eject the spent rounds on the ground and not to worry about saving them for reloading latter. We were taught as if this was something new. The department issued carrier had six loops carried on the belt but many including myself bought speed loaders and a double pouch. We were taught to use a "weaver stance" and not the one hand "bulls eye" stance.

Most excellent video; long overdo. Situational awareness! Train as you fight. Still, don't catch your empties...

I enjoy your revolver videos man!

Chris, you make me want to sling a lever action, holster a wheel gun, and mount a .22, and do them well. Something about being proficient with what you have is more important than just having the latest and greatest. Keep up the good work.

@martinswiney2192

Жыл бұрын

Your comment is the wisest I have seen ever. I was trained to fire a handgun by an Alabama State Trooper. I was friends with his sons. After firing a Colt 1911 and a Sig 226 and doing fair with them he asked if I wanted to shoot a real gun. It was his Model 19 service revolver. 357 Mag. I fell in love and bought a 586 the next week as my first handgun. I still carry a 586 35 years later. He was a firearms instructor for the State Troopers here and he taught me well the fundamentals and lawful use of a defensive weapon. He was a great man. My dad was great too but he taught me shotguns and rifle shooting for hunting. To this day I can still shoot a tighter group firing full house Magnums double action than with most any other gun I own. Yes I carry a plastic wonder. But its a Glock 27 in 357 Sig. For the day when six aint enough.

@alsaunders7805

Жыл бұрын

I shoot a handgun the same way I do a bow or shotgun, instinctively, both eyes open, look at the target and point and shoot. I am very accurate that way with a revolver, I am all over the place with every semiautomatic handgun I have ever used. Revolvers work for me, I think I will stick with them. 🤔🤓🍻

@martinswiney2192

Жыл бұрын

@@alsaunders7805 i shoot the same way i do with a rifle. Left eye closed. Have tried to retrain myself but gave up for the sake of my sanity and accuracy. Lol. Maybe thats why i cant hit nothing with a recurve with instinctive shooting. Gotta have sights on my bow. Shoot it with left eye closed. Cant help it.

The partial reload is why I love speedstrips. I choose a revolver as a backup gun. Most stages of the qualification course don’t line up with the number of rounds used and are needed for the next stage. In an emergency I’d obviously use all the rounds and then reload fully. In a training scenario I get good at picking out the spent cases and reloading. Much faster than the folks next to me with a small 9 or 380 and only 1 or two mag.

These videos are amazing. I'd purchase from you folks exclusively if y'all shipped to Chicago. Unfortunately I have to stick eith competitors that do. Great videos though, you will always have my admiration.

Terrific video, thank you.

Excellent analysis. Thx a lot.

Some police departments did change their training to mandate firing only a few rounds before reloading before they got speed loaders.

@FinalLugiaGuardian

Жыл бұрын

Paul Harrell explained the Newhall shooting the best and the impact it had on law enforcement training.

@paulis7319

Жыл бұрын

I'm not LEO but I like to use 2-3 rounds in the first mag to practice reloading. It just seems realistic for when a gun would likely jam.

Very Very interesting. And well narrated as usual.

Well explained. Thank you.

I was told this story as a recruit Sheriff's Deputy in 1979 in Richmond, VA. Our firearms training Sergeant would yell at us each time he saw brass NOT hitting the floor after a hard ejector rod slap, and we all did push-ups for the one guy who ejected into his hand. The way we got the story was that it was a Virginia State Trooper, unnamed of course, who died with his brass in his pocket. At the time, the VSP carried a single dump pouch so they had only 6 rounds in the revolver and 6 in the pouch. Troopers back then were all spit and polish, and their range was always spotless. They ejected brass into their hand and it never hit the floor because it was placed in cans on the bench. I was young and the story seemed very believable. Later on, I tried to find some record of the death but never could. We were limited to either dump pouches or bullet loops back then. As soon as I was off probation, I petitioned the Sheriff to allow speed loaders, and he didn't even know what they were. I had been a PPC shooter before being hired, so I was very familiar with them. He had me demonstrate how they worked, and he gave me permission to wear mine. Gradually others learned to use them and they were allowed. I haven't thought about the story of the "Dead State Trooper With Brass In His Pocket" for years.

I really like this kind of "case study" video. would love more like this

Great analysis!

great video I would have loved to see speed strips compared as well both a full chamber and just slapping two in

I heard the story from my flight instructor, some time between June 1983 and June 1985. you may have heard the story about the dead guy in the brand new Corvette and nobody could get the smell out. I heard that story in basic training, but it was Minnesota boys talking about a brand new 1972 F250. The story was traced back to Georgia, with a brand new '32 Model A.

I remember a story from the mid-90s. State patrol officer jumps out of squad to engage known cop killer that is seen on the dash cam bringing a weapon up to fire at the officer. The officer then stops and renters the squad to recover his hat due to agency policy requiring all officers to have their hat on prior to interacting with the public. I can't remember if there was a video or if it was retold by an instructor. Tragic.

Excellent video, thank you.

When I was in the academy they showed us a dashcam vid, I do not remember what department (it was 17 years ago) it showed a officer empty his revolver, dump his expended brass, bend over and pick it up, while rounds were still being fired. The officer / deputy wasn't killed or even hit that I know of. It did show him retrieve his brass while you could see another officer still shooting.

Dude, my mind is blown. I went through the academy in 1995 and this situation was preached as gospel. To find out it was myth is crazy. Thanks!

I remember reading about this when I carried a 6-inch Colt Python at the motorcycle shop. I also carried two HKS speed loaders and I practiced with them weekly. Thankfully every time criminals realized I was there they remembered urgent business elsewhere.

Great video. Very educational.

As a 30 year retired cop that carried a S&W 65-3 revolver, I was never trained to stop in the middle of training/a shooting to eject and pocket my empties. It was eject to the ground and reload. The only time I ever put empties in my pocket was when we picked up brass after training.

Brilliant Analysis!!!! Thanks!!!

This over the top animation thing was great. You should do it for the 86 Miami Dade shooting that made the FBI go for the 10mm maybe add it into a 10mm video talking about the wide range of 10mm loads today.

The firearms world is so full of bullshit anecdotes authoritatively retold over and over. The inability to fact check, research, and understand what data is available translating to dogma without serious evaluation is the biggest training issue.

@itsapittie

Жыл бұрын

It's not just the firearms world; that's pretty much every field. Firearms just happens to be one you know enough about to recognize it.

@FUNshoot

Жыл бұрын

Spot on!

@Dcm193

Жыл бұрын

Yes you are right it most comes from Leo’s and militaries

@25jasoncburger

Жыл бұрын

It's not an inability to fact check...it's more a matter of poor documentation of the incidents. The reason the Newhall "myths" were able to be perpetuated for so long is because of the piss-poor documentation of the incident. So much so, most sources could not even agree on what year Newhall happened. Some stated it was in 1971. That's what sets the Miami FBI shootout apart. It was very well documented. And thus, the take-aways from it are founded in facts.

@joeg5414

Жыл бұрын

It gets really wild when the gun grabbers start throwing in their facts. It's amazing how many people believe it too. Shocking how many people believe the 5.56 is the most dangerous caliber ever produced. "it'll blow your lungs out" - Biden

LOVE LUCKY GUNNER ❤

Thank you for mentioning the partial reload.

28 years in the NYPD. I started with a revolver and retired with a semiauto. I never heard of the “pocket full of brass” story until I started watching KZread. All I can say is when we carried revolvers, we were trained to dump and reload using the speed loader and get back in the fight. We did have to pick up our brass afterward though.

@jeffkaczmarek3577

Жыл бұрын

Signing up for a socialist jobs program where you prevented citizens from practicing their 2nd Amendment rights and became a parasite on the taxpayers for the rest of your life is not something you should be proud of.

Appreciate you taking the time to discuss this. Taking time to actually think about why we do things or say things, instead of just taking them as gospel is important.

I've been reading about armed self-defense since the mid-80s, (including Mas Ayoob) and I would swear I have read about the pocket full of brass at Newhall numerous times. Funny how the mind works. Thanks.

@kirkmooneyham

Жыл бұрын

Oh, you probably did. At the start of the video, Chris said the original (incorrect) story was picked up and spread around multiple police agencies, and then grew from there.

I believe Bill Jordan’s story about the Border Patrolman involved in a protracted shootout across the Rio Grande, who noticed afterward that he’d put his empty revolver brass into his pocket. But that was a LONG time ago, and it was a gunfight at distance that lasted a while. It’s sad that more people don’t have No Second Place Winner in their libraries.

Thanks for the link. Appreciated

Great video on a sad story… Thks!

Still the best gun channel.

Revolver reloads suck. That's why I focus on doing the best I can with what's in the gun, and figure my speed strip is to top the gun back up so it's not empty while I wait for the cops to show up. I can shoot my j-frame well, but I still feel my time is best invested in shooting better than practicing reloads

@LuckyGunner

Жыл бұрын

I completely agree. As far as I'm aware, there is not a single documented case of a civilian reloading a revolver in a gunfight, and only a handful of verifiable instances of LE pulling it off. You get the rounds in the gun and that's probably it. I practice revolver reloads because it's fun, not because it's a particularly useful skill.

@DWalter.27

Жыл бұрын

@@LuckyGunner That's another good point. I think ASP contends it "hasn't happened in a civilian dgu where it mattered" or something like that, and he's talking about all non-cop ccws, not just revolvers

This is a great video thanks guys

That old image of police pistol training is hilarious. What were they thinking? Officers had to demonstrate swan-like grace while defending their lives? Thank god we’ve come to our senses about self defense tactics. As always thought-provoking video. Revolvers are as relevant as the shooter’s skills allow.

Excellent 👍🏾 Well said 👏👏👏

Very interesting video Chris. Not being a revolver person I wonder how much time he could’ve saved even doing a partial reload so as to put fire on his target again, sooner

@PvHeer

Жыл бұрын

I read a training article in what probably was an old (around the 1990's) Guns & Ammo magazine. I have been looking but couldn't find the particular article yet. What I remember though was that partial reloads were taught where two rounds were to be loaded more or less opposite each other in the cylinder to cut down the amount of trigger pulls needed to get to firing a round (I suppose because under stress it would be difficult to remember which direction the cylinder rotated). I made it out to be a similar idea to just continuously feeding a shell in the chamber of a shotgun until there was time to top up the magazine.

It's almost impossible to find information on dump pouch use. However I have read that they were filled in such away as to orient the round bullet forward.

The pick up the brass story was told to us [while showing film/video] regarding the North Hollywood California bank robbery shoot out. Where the robbers were "armoured", allegedly one of the Kops was killed during reloading because of the training to police the brass at the training range. The instructor wanted us to leave it lie and use speed-clips during our training. We were taught both hands, single hand, weak hand, standing, kneel [ing, crouching, prone. As well as draw and fire. Both eyes open. Up and down 'hill'. Prohibited was from a moving vehicle. [On the sly we shot 100 yards with the pistol and single shot tommy gun one hand a head sized balloons.] Distance for revolvers was 3 foot to 50 feet. Most rooms are only 15 feet at most. It took years to talk the superior into allowing us to load All six chambers, "for safety reasons." [after all the NRA itself only allowed five rounds in competitions....] It was years after I left that pistols were issued.