For those who don't believe that many "used" lifters are available out there to be rebuilt, you are not familiar with the core business. Rebuilders of all types buy core engines from wrecking and salvage yards in bulk, and have been doing this for decades and decades. When you deal with engine cores on the scale that these companies do, there is NO shortage of any individual internal engine parts to work with.

@mostlyoldparts

3 жыл бұрын

Something else to consider: After producing literally BILLIONS of aftermarket lifters, the manufacturers have run out of decent materials being available. This is a worldwide problem. With that being said, it's conceiveable hundreds of thousands of "rejected" lifters (those not meeting tolerances during initial inspection) are available for recycling and re-machining.

@Welcometofacsistube

3 жыл бұрын

@@mostlyoldparts as a machinist, sorry but you're wrong. Good material is still available. It's just more expensive

@MrTheHillfolk

3 жыл бұрын

@@Welcometofacsistube it's not just an automotive though, I've heard about issues in motorcycles and small plane engines lately.

@hankb2379

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for clarifying. That makes sense. I questioned this theory but was only considering it from the individual rebuild perspective and not mass whole engine recycling.

@tarstarkusz

3 жыл бұрын

Chineseum is dishonesty. It's fakes and counterfeits and specs that are lies. It's marking "reconditioned" items as "new" This is what people mean when they say Chineseum. It's not just cars. It's electronics, it's tools it's appliances and even clothes. They will literally sell something that is 50 threads per inch as a 100 threads per inch. All of the fake components. It all comes out of China.

"It was a very well known name....(walks to quarter panel and stares at Comp Cams sticker)....in camshafts..." UT is the man 👍

@edwardsmith6609

3 жыл бұрын

Reminded me of a time.... I'm a Detroit Red Wings fan, years ago, during an interview with some players about who they liked for an upcoming NFL Superbowl game, defenseman Chris Chelios said he didn't like Tampa Bay Buccaneers because of a certain player. Of course the reporter just had to dig deeper and ask which player he was speaking of. Chelly replied: well, I'm not giving names, but his initials are Warren Sapp.

@LSswapGarage1

3 жыл бұрын

Comp has been junk for a long time now. It's a well known problem with them lol

@connorwilson8696

3 жыл бұрын

fucking classic tony haha love it

@easygoing2479

3 жыл бұрын

Ha! 2:45 - 47 Golden moment. He even throws in a quick look and a pause. 😆

@nobullshit9721

3 жыл бұрын

@@LSswapGarage1 not going to lie I had good luck with them so far lol 😂 maybe they’ve gotten better or just luck.

Like how Tony on multiple Occasions gave credit to the person who did the first presentation, true respect.

@twothreefour234

3 жыл бұрын

I've read that Chinese auto manufacturers commonly put used parts in new cars on the assembly line.

@digschopper9321

3 жыл бұрын

And showed who the manufacturer was,lmao.

@mexicanspec

3 жыл бұрын

@My Pronoun is WTF The new Chevrolet Cavalier is made in China and sold in Mexico. I told the salesman I would never buy a Chinese made car. He agreed with me.

I was at the Anniston Army Depot for many years where we worked on tracked vehicles and tanks. Most all have torsion bar suspension. Those torsion bars can and do bend so they no longer support the road arm. We would send them out as scrap metal and install new from a "certified" manufacturer. We started having problems with bad "new" torsion bars. We discovered the manufacturer was buying the scrap torsion bars, cleaning and repainting them, and selling them back to us as new. From that time on we cut the bad torsion bars into small sections. We actually started using a cutting torch on all bad parts so that stuff would never show up as new again. Also the "manufacturer" lost their contact and we're banned from the list of certified parts suppliers.

@spacepeanut8993

3 жыл бұрын

Sadly, we've had to do similar things in Naval Aviation.

@215rwg

3 жыл бұрын

@@spacepeanut8993 an old swabby that did a motor for me, was tellin tales of reconditioning navy mopar cranks. spray weld and machine to original dimensions. nfg for t-bars or lifters.

@Dsdcain

3 жыл бұрын

Kind of makes me wonder if we ever (you and I) ever worked on the same tank. I was at a UTES as a tracked vehicle mechanic, and *all* of the M48A5 AVLBs we had came out of Anniston in the early to mid 90s. Brandy newish so to speak. Like 8 or 9 hours on them. I was a track mechanic from the late 80s to the early 2000s. God now that I think about it, I hated working on the AVLB. Nothing easy. Pulling the pack was a ball buster, that stupid PTO shaft. Just replacing the batteries. Especially because I'm 6' 3"... Just popped in my head as a weird thought. Take it easy man. 😎

@n4zou

3 жыл бұрын

@@Dsdcain I was a Gas Turbine systems tech in the Navy. The Army recruited me for the M1 Abrams tank program. I did a lot of work on Abrams Tanks but you know how DOD operates. I ended up working on everything until Desert Shield when I deployed to Saudi Arabia. When I got back from Desert Storm all the M60's were gone. All the personal that worked on them were gone too. They had made it a point saying the M1 Abrams tank would be phased out and I would end up back in the Navy. I never got the chance to laugh at them as they packed up and left. I did 6 in the Navy and 24 in the Army. I would have stayed longer but got injured in Iraqi freedom.

@Dsdcain

3 жыл бұрын

@@n4zou Hope you're doing well now. I was full time army guard and got hurt working at the UTES. Being a technician you had to stay in the guard. The guard medically discharged me *because I couldn't deploy.* Not that I particularly wanted to go, but man it's hard to watch your unit get deployed *and* loose your job at the same time. I did 18 years and it was like thanks for hanging out with us, but later dude. I had a hard couple of years. Not the same as getting hurt over there I know. Tank wise, after a reorg all our 60s and the last few 48s were gone. At the end our big track was AVLBs M88s a M105A5s, and a buttload of M113s. Like I said I hope you're well now. Sorry to ramble. The job and guard thing is something I don't actually talk about much. Take it easy man. 😎

Now THIS is the Pulitzer Prize winning journalism that made Uncle Tony famous world wide. Exceptional job, we are all so appreciative of your detective work Columbo.

@seabulls69

Жыл бұрын

And, to back it up, here's a machinist's perspective: kzread.info/dash/bejne/f5aGzKOGmKares4.html

Been building up for a couple decades now - Stems from substandard metals and sloppy machine work both in tolerances and surface finish, And yes, the issue first surfaced with Comp Cams - which is why they changed the name from Competition Cams. The lifters that bleed down almost instantly have too much clearance between the body and the plunger - so the oil bleeds through the bigger gap and no more oil cushion. Not much can be done with these but keep returning the 'bleeders' until you have a good set. The surface finish on the lifter crown has gotten more and more rough, to the point now that oil CAN'T have a film between the lifter and cam lobe because the 'peaks' of the finish are too tall and too sharp - it's supposed to be an oil retention finish, NOT a grinding wheel. I've been 'burnishing' the bottom of lifters for over two decades now - spinning the lifter up and just dusting the finish of the crown with 1000 grit wet-or-dry paper and mineral spirits - not so much to polish the finish which still needs to hold oil on the surface but just enough to smooth down the sharp teeth that all of a sudden has become an 'acceptable' finish. Doing this, I haven't had a cam/lifter failure since. This is NOT what should need doing to assemble an engine and have it live - the parts SHOULD be made right in the first place.

@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259

3 жыл бұрын

Good idea, Imma gonna keep that in mind.

@frankbergmanII

3 жыл бұрын

People like you will keep this hobby alive through the green malaise. Keep it up

@robertbedsole8682

3 жыл бұрын

Amen brother. Anyone who doubts it should buy a $3 Chinesium wheel (oops...I'm not allowed to use that term) and run it against a pro grade wheel. I think they sieve their abrasives thru a rice steamer and bond with squid slime. LOL! RIP 100+ years of American tribology. Cheers!

@kustomdeluxe8489

3 жыл бұрын

My 40 yr old Chevy Power book says polish with 600 grit, same idea way back then.

@boostjunkie2320

3 жыл бұрын

I'm in the Cleveland area and we have no reliable machine shops around here. Like you said sharp peaks have suddenly become "acceptable machine work"......In the 1990s we didn't have this problem

"...a very well-known name in camshafts..." As he walks over and stands next to the sticker reading "Comp Cams." Smooth, Tony - nice one, mate. :-)

@MsKatjie

3 жыл бұрын

Too right and guess who has a brand new? set of flat tappit solids from the offending COMPany! Might try and buy OEM or another brand.

@Haffschlappe

3 ай бұрын

I cant use any comp ad edelbrock parts any longer the dont work and....

If they are selling lifters as new but are reman's they are in for one hell of a law suite.

@davidthehillbilly7995

3 жыл бұрын

Couldn't happen to a more deserving group of jackals....

@bobroberts2371

3 жыл бұрын

The only lifters I've ever seen " rebuilt " are for farm tractor engines. These are solid and have the face reground. As for car engine lifters, it is way too labor intensive to collect, disassemble, clean, inspect , sort and reassemble.

@shawnbottom4769

3 жыл бұрын

@@bobroberts2371 most of those steps apply to making new lifter too. In addition to machining from raw stock, heat treating, and final grinding. So I'd say it's absolutely plausible it's cheaper to run a reconditioning operation.

@Broken_Yugo

3 жыл бұрын

@@bobroberts2371 Yeah, I suspect the QC is simply so bad they may as well be poorly reconditioned used parts.

@mrdanforth3744

3 жыл бұрын

@@bobroberts2371 It is if you do it right..... it's a lot quicker and easier if you don't mind selling shit.

Uncle Tony, to prove beyond any doubt that this is happening with the machining, get some lifters for that engine from a junkyard motor and use a micrometer to determine if the "new" lifters are shorter. If you find an old enough, stock engine the lifters will be longer if this is correct, which it probably is.

@DougsterWolverineGarage

3 жыл бұрын

My thoughts exactly!

@nobullshit9721

3 жыл бұрын

Yep have all the correct specs on hand as a comparison.

@auteurfiddler8706

3 жыл бұрын

I'd guess the reconditioned ones might be inconsistent lengths as well as being shorter. And mic the diameter just for good , ah, measure.

@OverlandOne

3 жыл бұрын

@@auteurfiddler8706 Probably right which explains why all of them did not fail on Uncle Tony's engine, just the short one or shortest ones.

@OverlandOne

3 жыл бұрын

@Daniel G I bought them from Chrysler Direct Connection when I rebuilt my 1970 440 back in '77. I don't recall who made them. No problems and I put 100,000 miles on that engine.

Casually standing next to the comp cams sticker 😂😂

@vintage76vipergreenBeetle

3 жыл бұрын

Tell it, how it is.

@wrecktal_seepage

3 жыл бұрын

Gains 5hp

@bobroberts2371

3 жыл бұрын

Has anyone with lifter failures actually contacted the cam maker and have sent parts to them for inspection?

@superduty4556

3 жыл бұрын

@@bobroberts2371 they tell you that it's your fault.

@bobroberts2371

3 жыл бұрын

@@superduty4556 Only if one leads off with a expletive laden tirade.

should be a class action lawsuit started against these criminals

@bobroberts2371

3 жыл бұрын

The only lifters I've ever seen " rebuilt " are for farm tractor engines. These are solid and have the face reground. As for car engine lifters, it is way too labor intensive to collect, disassemble, clean, inspect , sort and reassemble.

@bobbrinkerhoff3592

3 жыл бұрын

@@bobroberts2371 you're right it would be too labor intensive as you describe it, but if you skip most of the process it can be done. Chuck the lifter in a Hardinge bench top lathe with an internal stop, and an air chuck, using a 5 C collet, face off the end and degrease them , instant rebuild. As for time, you could run 50 an hour easily, times six operators, it can be done.

@bobroberts2371

3 жыл бұрын

@@bobbrinkerhoff3592 If you are going to throw buzz words around, why not use a Monarch 10EE ? Regardless, lifter faces are ground not cut and have a slight crown. This crown along with a taper on the cam lobe promotes lifter rotation equalizing wear.

@rossracing6433

3 жыл бұрын

@@bobroberts2371 Oh shit, it's the battle of the Bobs.

@bobbrinkerhoff3592

3 жыл бұрын

@@bobroberts2371 what you said about grinding the face is right, but I said nothing about cutting them, I was thinking of using a tool post grinder. As for the Hardinge thing, they are one of many machines I've ran over the years, the tip of my right index finger is numb from feeding parts into a running machine. OSHA would have had a cow if they had seen that!

I've been wrenching since 12 years old, 64 now. been convinced for many years that parts, dealer or aftermarket are never as good as the parts that came on the new car. No hard proof just 50 years experience.

@baileyhatfield4273

3 жыл бұрын

Could be why you can almost never get parts for a new vehicle for MONTHS and MONTHS on end...switching up the specs LMAO.

@lb9gta307

3 жыл бұрын

As a former dealership tech, some of the parts that come on cars new are junk now. I've seen some pathetic examples like a run of factory installed ball joints that failed around the 2000 mile mark.

@XxMusclecarsxX

3 жыл бұрын

Very common, same with engine bearings. No wonder ls guys don't even bother opening the shortblock 🤣 the stock seasoned bearings are way better than the new crap

@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259

3 жыл бұрын

Occasionally aftermarket parts are better but I agree generally speaking.

@johnnicol8598

3 жыл бұрын

It's gotten terrible! Parts store stuff can sometimes be worst than the broken thing you just took off.

They say Uncle Tony is so tough, he doesn't use buckshot in his shotgun cartridges, instead he uses the failed lifters from his projects. Some say he's working on a weapon that can fire failed pistons.

@pauljconroysr4080

2 жыл бұрын

lol

Tony, you're going to accidentally jump start some muti-million dollar civil suite against Comp Cams for selling used products as "new" for the past 15-20 years lol.

The "solution" is actually self evident. A VERY accurate micrometer, a suitable bore gauge, and your old lifter. Mic the disassembled plunger and bore (via bore gauge). Only use "new to you" lifters that meet that clearance spec internally. As for the lack of preload, either adjustable pushrods (like a harley), adjustable rockers, or both. If disassembling lifters is "too much", then my other suggestion is "do what you never do" Tony: PUMP THE LIFTERS UP. If the stay pumped for a week, good clearance is probable. If they bleed cold, rejects. My bet is that's why so many manuals say to pump them up, it's a practical test of plunger/bore dimensional relationship for those of us without factory assembly plug and ring gauges to match pieces for clearance from piles of size sorted pieces

@jeremyhuston1

3 жыл бұрын

Being a machinist myself I was going to comment on measuring the lifters with a depth gauge off a surface plate. There was another comment on the surface finish,and oil retention I think has some merit.

@ludditeneaderthal

3 жыл бұрын

@@jeremyhuston1 agree entirely, but an adjustable valve train pretty much renders "lifter height" moot unless horribly out of spec. I'd also say (for the budget builder) the realities of hydraulic lifters would allow lower precision tooling for the height measurement (like a dial caliper alone, or as a depth gauge to a pane of thick plate glass). I do totally agree with the "1000 grit plateau finishing mod", it's a great form of "cheap insurance". A good "order of business" for low budget boys would be check for oe height spec, pump up lifters to check bore/plunger relationship, and then 1000 grit flatties that pass both. Most could scrape together the "cost of tooling" (decent dial caliper, a couple square feet of heavy plate glass, a pack of wet or dry sandpaper)

@dannyskorpenske555

Жыл бұрын

Building an engine is so much tedious, time consuming work, paying attention to every minute detail, it shouldn't have to come to micing brand new parts to make sure they are good- right out of the name brand box that you just bought for a pretty penny. This is not the solution I want, it's a bandaid I hate to have to wear.

@ludditeneaderthal

Жыл бұрын

@@dannyskorpenske555 then restrict yourself to solid lifter builds, which takes all the variables but height out of the equation, and that you can use the old mk1 eyeball to sort for. You gotta play the game with the pieces in the box. The reality is, the home builder of vintage iron is shopping "niche obsolete" products that offer very little market force incentive to manufacturers toward "good new tooling". When you're working on dinosaurs, you have to face the fact that they're extinct. Purina isn't going to whip up a line of "dino-chow" and sell it at Walmart. You're just wandering down the same road the folks rebuilding Packards did in the 60s.

Years ago when all these lifter and cam failures 1st really started I always assumed it was a metallurgy issue, poor overall quality control, and machining issues magnified by the reduction of zinc in oils.. This version is almost worse though it may ultimately be a combination of all of it..

love the way he's standing next to comp cams sticker lol

@lilmike2710

3 жыл бұрын

Lol.. "A well known supplier of cams and lifers " 😂

@lilmike2710

3 жыл бұрын

@AUTTOnomen Right lmao.. Those are some quality decals tho. 😂 each sticker adds +5HP

most first time engine rebuilders such as myself spend a fortune on getting the block bored 30 thousands and heads getting a standard 3 angle valve job done plus buying a cam and lifters and hoping it runs when we put it together these companies selling these shit parts should be on trial for theft

@THRASHMETALFUNRIFFS

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly! IT just happened to JunkRUp brand new 360 build a couple videos for the green Dodge truck requiring a complete rebuild... and he definitely KNOWS what he's doing! You know these part sellers blame the customer break in period or something and leave them holding the bag

Not Chineseum? How about the products being secondary to profits and maximum stock prices for the shareholders then? Once money became more valuable than a person's pride and self-worth, it was all over.

Lol “very well known name” tony nonchalantly walks down the car and sits on quarter with his hand by the comp cams sticker. Nice one tone

Damn it now I'm scared to ever change a cam again... I've changed 100s, had same issues in early 2000s, just stopped using that company altogether. But now I see I am running into same issues. THIS NEEDS TO STOP!!!! Uhrggg. Thank You Uncle Tony.

This is exactly what General Norman Schwarzkopf was talking about in his speech about protecting American industry while keeping it competitive. Are you paying attention now?

Is there a spec somewhere for the exact dimensions of a stock lifter? If a used one has been machined down, it should be measurable before installation.

@mrdanforth3744

3 жыл бұрын

If you measure a set of 16 and they are not all identical in length, they have been reconditioned. It should be possible to look up the specs for length and diameter.

If you want to find out who makes all These automotive parts go to the Aapex show that goes on at the same time of the SEMA show and go to the lower level of the aapex show. You will find every company around the world that makes these parts.

These kinds of videos only happen because you don’t take free parts from companies and have a lifetime of experience to draw from. I finally found a channel not filled with BS. Thank you!!!

Keeping it honest and being open minded.....Makes this channel so real for the majority of gearheads here in the real world on problems that happen in the REAL world.....just sucks when you are trying to make a living at it when people that dont do it for a living can not understand.....turning in to a labor of Love for sure.....no matter if you like G.M. Ford....or Mopar we are all in the same boat together.

I recommend Elgin cams. I run one of their pro-stock cams in my Laguna, and it works great, and it was reasonably inexpensive. You probably already know this, but just in case. Running a zinc additive on break in is definitely recommended.

@brocluno01

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, Dr Elgin and his custom cams are superb. So is his QA/QC. Can get pricey, but the go to guy for many rare vehicle/engine restorers and custom engine builders.

@DSchea

3 жыл бұрын

I love Lagunas. Never saw one in real life. They're eluding me.

@manicmechanic448

3 жыл бұрын

@@DSchea I've seen two, counting mine. I've heard of three more within 50 miles of me, but I've yet to see them.

I'm on my daughter's KZread. About 45 years ago I read an old book at that time about Chevy engines. I think it was written in the early 60's. One of the items covered was hydraulic lifters. The book said that the tolerances inside the lifters where so small that each lifter bore and the internal parts had to be measured during assembly so they could make sure the lifter had the right clearances inside. The book mentioned if you took lifters apart to clean them, only do one lifter at a time. That way you couldn't accidentally install the wrong size internal parts causing a leak down or binding. About 10 years ago I had a 15 hp Kohler engine with a lifter tick. I did some research and found out that the Kohler lifters in that engine were the same as a small block chevy. I decided to remove the lifters and clean them internally. I figured if things went wrong I'd buy two small block chevy lifters. Anyway, I did one lifter at a time. I couldn't find anything that caused them to collapse. When I put them back together I pumped them full of automatic transmission fluid. I figured just in case I missed a piece of debris that the automatic transmission fluid would help clean it out. I reinstalled the lifters and started the engine. The lifters ticked for about 10 minutes and never ticked again.

Interesting. Just about to screw together a 360. New cam and lifters from unsaid company. Have the originals and micrometers. I'll be measuring

Well, fifty years ago, TRW could be counted on for good solid and hydraulic flat tappets .

@JimsRustyOldNuts

3 жыл бұрын

Sold a ton of TRW 327/350 cam and lifter kits back in the late 80s early 90s..only recall one instance of somebody claiming the cam was no good...but the guy was a well known doofus and im almost dead certain he didnt do a proper break in procedure..I miss those TRW rebuild kits..quality stuff..never had to worry about anything.

As for a "new" lifter being a ground down used lifter, are there spec for lifters? i.e., can the lifter me mic'd before installation to verify it meets original specs?

@brandonharvey6455

3 жыл бұрын

Yes it can if you have the original specs for the lifter you are using brother

@invalidaccount2315

3 жыл бұрын

If you dont have the original specs for the engine theres engine builder books that show the math formulas used to calculate it or modify.

@brocluno01

3 жыл бұрын

The Aussies have been regrinding OEM lifters for decades. Their reground and custom assembled lifter sets are very good. It can get pricey to get them sent to USA, but if you want real period correct OEM lifters with a new face, that's the way to go. Many of the Aussie speed shops will not put a "New" lifter in any engine ...

@u121921

3 жыл бұрын

A Gm trained Dealer mechanic I worked with explained the difference between vette ZR 1 , Goodwrench and targetmaster engines in a very simple way . Goodwrench engines were within the GM engineering specs as loose as they were during the roger smith era noting that all small blocks were started and run on propane test stands using tire balancer technology to show the test guy how many roll pins to stick into the harmonic balancer to kill the vibration .Where as the targetmasters were assembled out of all the stockpiled parts that had been rejected for being way out of spec - Roger monetizing the scrap . ZR 1 100% inspected ,Target Master 100% rejected .Now at Mopar back in the 60s and 70s the only numbers stamped on the engine pad were notes as to over and undersize parts and their location since Mopar couldn't afford to scrap many engines since they didn't have GMs volume .

I first heard of this with comp cams around 2003-2004......a friend who was a professional race engine builder who specialized in pontiac V8s was going crazy chasing flat cams on new builds, was using zinc additives in the oil, no luck, he ended up going to roller cams for street engines. I remember issues he had with aftermarket pontiac V8 block cracking, he had the metallurgy tested and the supposed high end replacement block was the same grade cast iron as a frying pan. B.S. in manufacturing has bern going on for years.

Want to be safe (for the most part)? Three letters: N-O-S. That's New Old Stock for anyone that doesn't know it. Depending on the part, that's the way to go. I wouldn't use certain things NOS (rubber parts, diaphragms, tires, etc.) because time and the elements/storage will not be kind to them. I do agree that part of it is "Chinese-ium", but it's not the entire story. But when you take something and water it down and then copy it with no quality control, you get exactly what you see in this video. I would have thought that "remanufactured" or "reconditioned" parts like that have to have said that on the label on the box, but nothing surprises me. Back when I was in the parts industry on the manufacturer side, we had a term for store bought starters and alternators. We called them "spray and pray". That's fix only what's wrong, paint it to look nice and pray it works. The right way of course is to dismantle them, check everything for damage and that it's within tolerance and replace all of the expendable parts. Anything out of spec is discarded unless it can be brought back into spec. Then it is truly "rebuilt". Anything other than that is "spray and pray", even if it's not painted.

@mikerobinson3672

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, yes, and Yes on the NOS parts. Been doing. This with my vintage Honda motorcycle addiction for a year now and have illiminated bad parts issues.

@googleusergp

3 жыл бұрын

@@mikerobinson3672 For the most part. But, old part, even new sitting around can have problems. It depends on the part of course.

@montinaladine3264

2 жыл бұрын

As with most things in most societies in the last 30 or so years, it just comes down to the almighty dollar; the quick buck

Just watched Chris Birdsong on Junkerup destroy a 360 with Comps lifters....he was almost in tears. The lifter was trashed...just a few minutes of running...and he knows his mopars

@SuperKONR

3 жыл бұрын

If he's stupid enough to run known junk parts then let him cry lol.

@montinaladine3264

2 жыл бұрын

That's it! Definitely now will never by CC stuff. I agree because I CC are not that great-- you get what you pay for. I measured a new set of CC double springs on a Rimac valve spring tester and they were all over the place, several of them were so out that you would throw them away. I tried to contact CC Customer service three times, all efforts were ignored. That's why I will never buy or recommend CC stuff again. Much rather pay extra for a better brand which has better manufacturing tolerances and who believe in customer service.

@Haffschlappe

3 ай бұрын

Cc ownes edelbrock and Lunati and mist Otter brands

Wiped out my Comp "High Energy" 260/260 110 kit.... Did all the hard work of replace/rebuild... put in a Clay Smith 264/264 110 kit... so far so good!!!

@Haffschlappe

3 ай бұрын

Same Story with all edebrock cams

I in the past year had a problem with A set of Manley Stainless steel valves I bought for a 455 Pontiac build. I had spent the afternoon setting up the heads and buttoned everything up. Went to bed. Next evening I was going to put together the matching head and noticed the florescent bulb over my workbench shattered all over my bench. Upon closer inspection I realized the valve spring was no longer on the head! It had shot off and broke my shop light. OK I fucked up putting the keeper on the valve I’m thinking! I pull the head over and realize the lands around the valve had snapped off the valve stem! WTF!!! Fluke once in a lifetime thing, or is it a quality control issue? I’ve been using Manley valves for over 40 years! Never have I had a brand new valve break like that racing, much less sitting idle on a work bench! Like you, lot of questions, and not an actual answer!

@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259

3 жыл бұрын

I'm gonna guess you went another direction on that build.

@TL-angzarr

3 жыл бұрын

Manley has always been good to me, you send the valve back to them as I'm sure they want to see what kind of failure it was. They can't fix a problem they don't know about.

@garys7119

3 жыл бұрын

I second Manleys quality control it’s not so good anymore Bought a set of pushrods, oil hole size On several different pushrods had different sizes .Called tech-support they didn’t seem to be interested in helping. The hole that shouldn’t be a problem Scheme.

@waynemckenzie3609

3 жыл бұрын

I was under the impression that manley used Shin Ichi. valves. Made in Taiwan. Ive used them in several race engines and never had an issue. I would recommend them anyday

@auteurfiddler8706

3 жыл бұрын

If this repeats, guys will start calling the "Girlie Valves."

Avoid Orielys, Auto Zone and Advance? Idk.. I've always trusted engine parts that Napa carrys. But I'm old enough to remember them looking thru giant parts catalogues to fetch a part from inventory. Before computers. Ah those were the days man.

@MrTheHillfolk

3 жыл бұрын

I tried to score a few old catalogs back in the mid 2000s just cause it's easier to thumb thru a book then it is to remember something and look it up on the internet. And a damn laptop manual sucks underneath a car while oil and crap is dripping all-over. Haha jumping to modern times I print out the procedure 🤣 Gimme paper for in the shop.

@lordphullautosear

3 жыл бұрын

Yep, a 6 ft. stretch of catalog rack with every bit of it filled. "If it ain't in here somewhere, it don't exist."

@neoladams8519

3 жыл бұрын

Me too man...those catalogs were massive...those NAPA guys back in the day made going to Napa my first choice to get parts... I still go to Napa, but it's nothing like back in the ole days.

@johnnicol8598

3 жыл бұрын

Yes and those guys knew their stuff too, could always find "something" that worked or crossed. It used to be a career, with people that took it seriously. And were paid accordingly.

@mattmccain8492

3 жыл бұрын

Yep. I worked at Napa when they had the parts catalogs on the counter. No computers. I got pretty good looking up parts that way. Actually was better cause after a while you memorized certain parts and numbers to where you didn't need to look in the books. You went straight to the part on the back shelves when the customer asked.. I miss that method and those books. I would save the old ones when we changed out for the new updated ones and read over them at home to learn what interchanged between models and what years things fit.

Tony talks work on this is about to turn the cam after market on its head and force a reaction from “no name big manufacturer” and it’s gonna be amazing for the consumer at the end of this road, keep up this fight

I'm going to have to agree with Uncle Squirrel, the squirrels are to blame and one day they will take over the world. Did ya know that squirrels killed the dinosaurs.

Solids were also having the problem in the 2000's. There must be a metallurgy/lubricant problem as well. Having blueprint specs for all of the involved dimensions would be super helpful. the aforementioned reasons, as well as expediency, are the reason I went with Schubeck(SM) lifters years ago. They were fully machined on good equipment and incorporated better materials, not to mention they were really light compared to stock stuff. I would also recommend this style of lifter over many roller lifters for the fact that needle bearings DIE in many low rpm(idle) applications. The one exception on rollers would be the Isky Red Zone lifter, which has a solid brass bushing, rather than needles. Jmho.

Hey Tony I wonder if it would show up if you mic'ed a known good lifter with one that suspicious regrind lifter. I would imagine it would be 20 to 30 thousand shorter than the other from top to bottom curious to see.

@mostlyoldparts

3 жыл бұрын

I don't think he's going to find that on the hydraulic roller lifters in Bottle Rocket, but on a flat tappet, it would definitely be of interest. It's reasonable to surmise Tony hit the nail on the head with the hydraulic roller lifter plunger not having proper clearance with the inner bore of the lifter body.

@jimc3688

3 жыл бұрын

@@mostlyoldparts Seems not too difficult to make a bench test for them. Including at temperature.

@mpetersen6

3 жыл бұрын

You wouldn't need to mic it. .020' to .030' will stand out like a sore thumb

@sidewyndersshed1676

3 жыл бұрын

@@mpetersen6 .20-.30 is similar to some spark plug gaps. (I know modern hei ignitions often have a gap of .60 thou. Or so, but alot of older points type igns. Run a gap around .30thou.) In other words, if you can imagine how much a .20 thou spark plug gap is, it will give you an idea of the differences being discused. I hope this helps people to visualize this.

This is very depressing to hear especially from a reputable name from performance. Keep us informed!

I talked to my engine builder about this topic ,He says the same as you ,solid rollers are the ticket ,He uses nothing from Chump Cams,He uses Morel lifters

Maybe this has already been mentioned... anyway... many of these kind of parts are 'surface hardened' during the original manufacturing process. In at least one specific case I am aware of crank bearing journals were hardened to a depth of ~20 thou. So, even though you could buy "30 under" bearings, if you machined the crank 30 under you blew thru the surface hardening

UT, Be careful with the idea you mentioned - adjusting/tightening the hydraulic lifter plungers down to where they are "essentially" a solid lifter. If you do that, you risk the lifter pumping up at high oil pressure and hi-rpm, where you may burn a valve and possibly bend a valve depending on piston to valve clearance - FYI. The other idea you mentioned regarding reusing your old cam and lifters again in another engine block - I know people who have done it without issue, but they are usually in non high performance applications. You have to remember that all engine blocks can have slight core shift and machining differences. That means the lifter(s) may not be riding on the exact same center-point/axis over their respective lobe(s). While it may be less risky to try in a non high performance engine, I would not try it in a true high performance engine. It may re-"Break-in" with some time and work, but I am not sure it is worth the risk. I believe in keeping used cam and lifters meticulously together (same lifter and lobe), but only for re-use in the original engine block they came out of. As for the issue being addressed in your video - lifters collapsing. I believe it is due to poor machining tolerances being accepted by the manufacturers. The internals of a hydraulic lifter (roller or not) are the closest tolerance in the whole engine. Even slightly out of tolerance, and you will either have a "leaky/collapsing" lifter or a sticking one. Neither is acceptable. Unfortunately, most automotive technicians do not have the special micrometers needed to get the fine measurements even if they have the clearance specifications available. As others have commented here, the best bet is to bench test with a solvent or very thin oil (to mimic hot oil viscosity). I agree, this is the lifter manufacturers job to do before they even put them in a box to sell to the end-user/customer. But with all the issues we are seeing lately with these parts, it warrants greater effort on our (engine builders' ) end to catch and return for replacement any defective parts we receive. The seller should then be extremely cooperative with the requested exchange and bear the costs of the shipping and time lost. Hopefully, one of these companies will invest in the equipment and the training of machinists to manufacture quality, dependable lifters again. God Bless you my friend.

@montinaladine3264

2 жыл бұрын

Good information and well written, thanks for sharing. I agree with everything you say. The used cam w/ matching respective lifters in a different engine block is a good point - These are mass produced cast iron engines with only limited high tolerance areas - it only takes one lifter bore affected by block core shift and there goes a lobe and the potential effects from that means it is futile economy keeping the cam/lifters. Keeping a good cam sure, but so easy to use new (good) lifters with it in a different engine.

Interesting hypothesis. I’ve never seen a used lifter that didn’t look used. The side of the lifter body wears, the pushrod cup, the base is machined convex and hardened. All the internals. They aren’t nearly as expensive as machine work i’d think?

@BuzzLOLOL

3 жыл бұрын

Something looks wrong here! I checked to see if this video was from April 1st because it's pure bull shiiite! How can a lifter piston just drop down to the bottom on a new lifter? Doesn't he know there's a little bias spring inside, or should be, that holds the piston up?????? Now if the lifter was assembled on a high humidity rainy day and sat "for 6 years" with 100% humidity air inside maybe the spring rusted out... Also, high intensity/anti-pump-up/Rhodes lifters are actually made with flats, large clearances, or grooves in the side of the lifter piston and still work fine! After seeing the stupid things Tony did in a Nick's garage video, I'm wondering how much he knows!

@mrdanforth3744

3 жыл бұрын

@@DanEBoyd They stopped mass producing suitable lifters when they stopped making pushrod engines with flat tappet cams. That would have put an end to the supply of cheap lifters to the aftermarket.

@montinaladine3264

2 жыл бұрын

So many people can't believe they reco lifters. Believe me they do! They have been doing it since the early 60s. Of course they get cores from tens of thousands of old junk engines each year, strip them down for core parts like lifters. It's good in a way, it's recycling - as long as it's done properly. And marked on the box for the consumer to know about. Because trying to pass off reco lifters as new parts is dishonest.

Funny thing, This year i started playing with a couple of projects that were put on the back burner for some time. The first one is a 1953 f-100 with a 500 Cadillac and the second one is a 1941 Plymouth coupe with a 440 buttered up and squeezed in to its tiny engine compartment. Well i was tossing around of putting a cam and lifters with a little lift in them both to get that giggity giggity we all love. After watching the couple of videos im not going to waste my time going through the trouble right know and just leave them stock. We sure do not need more problems down the road. It has been a small battle getting these motors to fit and make thing all work together. So thanks for the heads up on quality control.

Many years ago I read an article in a mustang magazine about making “solid draulic” lifters. They took apart the hydraulic roller and modified it with washers stacked inside. They may have removed the check ball and spring too. It made quite a bit more power and still had some cushion via the oil in the lifter.

@montinaladine3264

2 жыл бұрын

Very interesting!

I never heard of lifters being reconditioned untill today. Didn't think that was even possible or feasible. That was always a throw away part . But in these wierd times, I wouldn't doubt that it does happen. For you guys wondering where all those used lifters come from . I've been in large facilities where used core engines ,obtained from wrecking and scrap yards, were being disassembled and various parts being separated and gathered into 55 gallon drums . And that was 20 years ago. I specifically remember all the ,then fairly new at the time, mid 90s era Chevy 350 LT1 engines being disassembled and sorted . Tons of em. Until you see it, you won't believe the sheer volume.

@montinaladine3264

2 жыл бұрын

You sort of answered your own question with the tens of thousands of old engines being stripped for core parts. In the early days of USA I suppose they always used to throw away lifters, as with your huge economy and industry, they were plentiful and cheap. But in Australia in the 60s and 70s, even into the 80s, the American V8 was a luxury and not overly common and so with the expense of new parts and low wages, it was common to recondition lifters! The body base was machined to give the correct convex and the internals were pulled out, inspected measured and replaced if in spec, and new springs were put in.

@mattmccain8492

2 жыл бұрын

@@montinaladine3264 like I said, I've never heard of reconditioning lifters. Even 30 years ago in auto tech school, I was told it wasn't possible because of the outer layer of metal was different than the base metal underneath. Once it wore through in the wear mate pattern to the cam lobe, it was done..you threw it away and replaced it. None of my shop or engine manuals that go back to the mid 1950s mention that as part of reconditioning engine parts..it was always replace it. Never reuse them much less re-machine the surface.

I never thought of lifters as a core item. They were treated as throw away ( when new was available). So I ask where did cam companies get so many used lifters to recondition?

@2000freefuel

3 жыл бұрын

you get core lifters from core engines.

@montinaladine3264

2 жыл бұрын

The answer is in another of UTG videos. There are tens of thousands of old engines that are bought and stripped for core parts by companies. You can imagine how many lifters they would get from that. Chrysler use the same size lifter in several of their engines, all their modern (post 63) V8s and even the slant 6 has the same size lifter bore I think. In any case, back in the 60s and 70s parts were expensive and wages were low and it was common to recondition lifters!

I'm glad you make these videos. Lifters are not the only part with issues as we have seen. I would say going forward we do need a fix for this maybe soaking lifters in oil beforehand ?

After 30 years, I wiped a Lunati cam and lifters inside of 2 minutes, probably less. Cleaned it up, new cam and lifters, Brad Penn oil, rolled the dice. That's been 7 years ago, still running fine.

Try a lunati matched set, I've never heard of anyone having a problem from them, and they used to supply the crankshafts to mercury to build the 383 (6.2) Mercruiser inboard engines, I guess their standards would be high enough to be an OEM supplier

@philgatto8481

Жыл бұрын

I tried Lunati and I had 3 lifters fail and this is after I followed the article in Mopar Action called First Fire (all about flat tappet cam break in). I believe I did everything right. Now I am at the point where I am cleaning the metal out of the engine. Uncle Tony is precisely correct when he said this is a devastating problem. I don't totally blame Lunati. They probably just buy the lifters from someone who reconditions them.

@shoominati23

Жыл бұрын

@@philgatto8481 Howards Camshafts do 5 year guaranteed matched cam/lifter sets, I believe Comp is the only other manufacturer to do likewise. Is there any issue with core shift in the block or are there any obstructions in the oilways possibly? Are you using new or pre used rockers? Because with old rockers, there can be an issue with wear on the rocker cup which is okay with the matched worn lifter, but with a new lifter - it wants to pull the pushrod in a off-centre direction and it can actually gouge the top of the lifter or break the tip of the pushrod off if you don't have the lifters re-machined before a build. But I go by the engine break in guide from Jegs, they say to remove the middle springs from double or triple springs and advise you do 3 run in heat cycles where you vary the revs from 1500-3000 for 30 mins and let it cool down completely and go again. I'm actually using one of the Howards Certified cams in my next SBC build.

One thing to try is top quality (BRAND NEW) lifters and the right oil, engine primed and 30 minute break in. That IMHO is step one two three to a solution.

@gregpanek523

3 жыл бұрын

The problem is that you think you are buying a fine USA made part but the part was outsoursed to China, Vietnam, India, who knows, whatever the cheap labor dejour is, with the inch to milimeter dimentions not quite perfect and other discrepencies with parts built off of chevy specs then stretched or shrunk for a closed fit then sent here then it is packaged and labled in the USA but you don't have a clue where it came from and whoever is packaging and selling it is tight lipped.

@MrTheHillfolk

3 жыл бұрын

My bud put a cam in his Harley recently, went thru 2 sets of lifters before he got some that wouldn't tap.

@wheels-n-tires1846

3 жыл бұрын

They ALL say Brand New... And most everybody who spent money on a new cam is invested enough to do a prime and break in with proper oil... Thats been the road to success for decades... But all the sudden nobody's doing it And its operator error??? Nah... The parts have become substandard...

@suzyjohnson4667

3 жыл бұрын

@@wheels-n-tires1846IMHO Depends on the brand.

This literally happened to me on the dyno during camshaft break- in last week. Took out all my bearings and scored up 2 cylinders.

Howard's or Crower, especially for flat tappets. Use their Direct Lube or Cam Saver lifters. Reason being that they are custom built for these suppliers with extra machining. There are extra steps in the QA/QC process. Very few bad ones get out the door. Crower guarantees face hardness and spherical radii. Howard's guarantees cam and lifters for 5 years, if bought as a package. Any one else and you are gambling big time ...

@frigglebiscuit7484

3 жыл бұрын

can confirm. i got a lunati voodoo cam and lifter kit, and 5 of the lifters collapsed after break in. i stuck some howards in, and its still going strong.

They will continue to make and sell subpar products if our suppliers keep ordering them! It’s always about the cheapest manufacturer and so you(they) get what you(they) pay for and shit rolls down hill! I hope they get a handle on it soon! 🤘🏼🔧

Great video. Just watched Tom's video also. This would have soured me from cars if this happened to me as I spent every thing I had (time and money) in the 70-s into my 68 Firebird. Uncle Tony says not to blame the Chinese, OK then how did we get to this point? Guess its a race to the bottom as we all want to buy the cheapest thing out there. Can't we spend a few dollars more per lifter and get new, high quality lifter that will not destroy our engines? Where are our journalist that are in these glossy print high performance car publications to call out such practices that these two videos reveal? The journalist don't want to call out the advertisers in their magazines because it effects the bottom line of the magazine that employees them? If these videos are true, (and I don't doubt them) it is a said state of affairs. Great video Uncle Tony and Tom. New subscriber here to both of these informative channels.

Great video. On how to check lifters to see if they are new or used if you can find specs for OEM lifters I would mic my new lifters and see if they are within OEM tolerance. You can always take metal away but in this case you can't add it back.

Get the certified machinists together with videos like this one. Organize a new parts industry in America to fix these serious problems occurring abroad with machined parts.

@ec5838

3 жыл бұрын

As a CNC machinist for over 10 years let me tell you... it wont work. Why? One simple factor.. COST. Every single damn time I ever made anything for anyone, they cried about the price. Why the hell does it cost $100 for this part they would say, when I can buy a similar one for $3.95 from China? Hmm, indeed, except they only "look" similar and as some people discover they are anything but. In order to make a quality part requires a bunch of factors, good milling machines, good tooling, good machinists, good quality control, etc etc and these things all cost money. At the end of the day, the only people that would buy quality parts were big companies in the aerospace industry or gov agencies like NASA... everyone else turned their noses up at the price as if they were getting ripped off. People are waaaay too used to and comfortable with Chinese prices... they just don't realize what that means in the long run... and here we are. :/

@montinaladine3264

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah right. In a perfect world that would happen. But in a perfect world the original problem wouldn't exist anyway. In today's greedy money driven times, the profit in the quick buck is the only important thing.

I haven't installed a fresh cam & lifters in over two decades, but I have been obsessively researching this issue for a few years now, as I intend to change up components on a couple of cars as they're no longer daily drivers. It seems that the safest approach is to go with smaller, well-known individuals or firms whose reputation rides almost wholly on positive word-of-mouth, not corporate marketing. So, based on my research and their reputation, my next cams and lifters will likely be coming from Bullet, Isky, or Straub.

@dionrau5580

3 жыл бұрын

Good to know thanks for sharing.

@travisy7861

3 жыл бұрын

Careful. A lot of smaller companies have comp cams grind the cams

@ShawnD1027

3 жыл бұрын

@@travisy7861, I can see that being true for some brands, but I seriously doubt the three I mentioned do so.

@DavesRestoration454

3 жыл бұрын

@@ShawnD1027 Bullet used to grind Straub's cams. I have used Chris for a few builds...

@ShawnD1027

3 жыл бұрын

@@DavesRestoration454, thanks. I recalled that about Straub's cams, but considered my knowledge dated, so I didn't think I could make a credible statement in that regard.

Just ran across a thread on the speedtalk forum yesterday One of the things that a couple well respected builders mentioned was new lifters without proper convex curvature on the face Something else to check besides overall length Also, if a lifter is refurbished, the outside diameter would have to be turned down a little bit to look new - if it has been, then the lifter will have extra clearance in its bore meaning that more oil will escape through that clearance instead of pumping the lifter up Yet another thing to check...

@ericlandstrom6155

3 жыл бұрын

UT did a video on that last year

Hey UT Great video . Lots to be said about the quality control with the reconditioned lifters . You never know what you're going to get now a days ? Solid roller sounds like the way to go . Do you ever check the angled grind on the lifters ? I know its not the case in this engine , but I always check to see if the lifters have been angled on the bottom so they can spin on the cam lobes

To lash your compressed hydraulic lifters are you gonna use some iron adjustable factory 273 rocker arms? Adjustable rocker arms for Mopars are EXPENSIVE

@mostlyoldparts

3 жыл бұрын

I'm guessing Tony has some old 273 rockers laying around somewhere. Lots of 273's used mechanical lifters and adjustable rockers.

@Tk-ou9ec

3 жыл бұрын

Not so. I installed 273 rockers in my 318 with the appropriate pushrods. We just could not get it to stop chattering no matter what pre load we gave it- a quarter turn,half a turn or even a three quarter turn,chatter chatter. I gave up and went back to stock rockers and pushrods BUT with advice I installed 80thou lash caps,quiet as can be now. Like new. The cam is a comp 268H (not sure if that’s a good thing?). But it all works quite well.

@TheOverisel

3 жыл бұрын

@@Thaddaeus417 I have read that Speedmaster is questionable quality just like Pro Form Rocker arms. The traditionally good name brand rocker arms for mopar such as Comp Cams, Harland Sharpe and Crane are $500 plus. Mancini racing sells their house brand iron adjustable rocker arms for under $300 for a set of 16 but I know of no one who has tried them. www.manciniracing.com/maraenadroar.html

Are there specs a person could measure to identify reground lifters? What are the lifter body tolerances for width and overall height?

@bobroberts2371

3 жыл бұрын

The only lifters I've ever seen " rebuilt " are for farm tractor engines. These are solid and have the face reground. As for car engine lifters, it is way too labor intensive to collect, disassemble, clean, inspect , sort and reassemble.

I had the same thing happen, pre load was all over the place. Had to go to adjustable rockers from a 273, custom pushrods etc. Cost me 6 months resolving the problem. Lota Fun

Last year I built a 360 with a melling "RV" cam. I scoured the internet and Ebay till I found some nos Vl-58 lifters from Amgauge. After break in the lifters quieted out and ran flawlessly. I don't have a whole lot of hours on the engine yet but so far the cam and lifters have been fine. Btw I'm running Delo 15w40

love your vids, tony! where would all the lifter cores come from? it doesn't seem to be worth trying to round up 1000s of lifters for who knows how many different engines! the only thing that sounds logical is that the problem is elsewhere, improper break in, improper break in oil used, no or low zddp oil being used. once in a while, you don't figure it out and the next one lives. i only use hr cams.

@montinaladine3264

2 жыл бұрын

So many people can't believe they reco lifters. Believe me they do! They have been doing it since the early 60s. Of course they get cores from tens of thousands of old junk engines each year, strip them down for core parts like lifters. It's good in a way, it's recycling - as long as it's done properly. And marked on the box for the consumer to know about. Because trying to pass off reco lifters as new parts is dishonest.

But where’s the proof that they actually “recondition” them?

@pookysdad4884

3 жыл бұрын

I talked to a lesser known "regrind" company, Delta Cams in Tacoma. They confirmed it.

@samdavis5079

3 жыл бұрын

He did not say it was fact. He said that was his "Hypothesis" (means opinion/guess).

There is a class action suit against new factory trucks with lifter failures. So it's also now happening to Ford, Chevy and Dodge with their new engines.

Geez, I just had a flat tappet lifter self disintegrate, which obviously took out the cam. All new parts mind you so I thought "crap I might as well go with a roller setup. There are less than 200 miles on the roller cam, lifters and rockers and they're not pumping up. Glad I saw this video but very disappointed there isn't a solution

The problem is always deeper then people think

The only question I have is, how do they get lifters to rebuild? It most likely had to be used, I assume. Everyone I know throws them away.

@mostumpy

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks, you saved me a comment. Bands of kids scowering junk yards at night collecting lifters like golf balls around the rough.

Good video have seen a couple of cases of this lately in subscribers engines. Thanks Tony for the video, and hangin out live @DragBoss Garage.

I just rebuilt a BBF earlier this year including a new cam and lifter kit. Did everything I was supposed to…used Lucas assembly lube, and Brad Penn high Zinc break in oil. The car started right up and I ran it between 2k-3k rpm for 30 minutes. A couple days later it wouldn’t start again. Took it apart to find loose pushrods, worn out lifters, and a most of the cam lobes damaged. So I’m faced with the time and expense of taking the motor back to the machine shop to have it cleaned up again, only to potentially face the same cam issue a second time, or buying and installing a crate motor to get a warranty.

I really appreciate the pushback on dismissive "chinesium" comments. Don't matter where something is made if it's made wrong. I've certainly seen junk from various countries. Anyway, interesting hypothesis. Here's something I've looked into that you might be able to put something on. I've been curious about building a roller 4.0l (my build will be solid flat) as no one really does it. The only issue is a piece of the casting that goes above the lifters between em. But the lifter bore and stock lifter PN is the same as the 90's mopar magnum motors, so I've wondered if tie bar rollers for viper or magnum v8 etc could be used in the 4.0l. You'd just have to figure out if you could assemble the tie bar with the lifters in place. Also, on the 4.0l I've mocked up big block chevy rockers on mine, they pattern good if you want ratio rockers that you can get solid adjusters on. Mine is mocked up with guideplates for an LS and 7/16-5/16 conversion studs.

@waiting4aliens

3 жыл бұрын

Which 4.0 are you building?

@Levibetz

3 жыл бұрын

@@waiting4aliens I've got a later one I think '99? It came with the horseshoe intake. I'm basically doing a big cam stock motor deal, might touch up the ports a bit. Then boost on top.

IT's come down to Mic'ing them before install and/or longer pushrods then? Also, verifying the taper on the bottom...

@invalidaccount2315

3 жыл бұрын

I was taught to always mic b4 install due to manufacturers defects. Even with "new" rod bearings. Apparantly that skill has been forgotten in our good nuff culture.

@mattmccain8492

3 жыл бұрын

Probably. I never thought I'd have to mic a new set of lifters ..looks like just another tedious repetitive step like checking ring gaps on new ring sets or rod/ main bearing clearances on new bearings..to make sure they are right. Wonder what the specs on those are? Guess I'll pull out my old shop manuals and see if that is in the charts.

Also, Rhodes Lifters still work. Still made by Johnson Controls per conversation with them when purchasing some for a boat engine build underway (need to tame the cam for low speed operation to prevent reversion from wet exhaust).

Might have to build a test rig and test these outside of the engine. Precision measurements can be made utilizing micrometers for height and width. As far as internal dimensions go that part is a little more complicated. I would say that knowing the stock internal specs for a brand new part would probably be the right place to start. Disassembly of the "new" parts may or may not be possible.

Quality control

Couldn’t using a micrometer on the lifters before installation solve this problem 🤔

@JimmyLoose

3 жыл бұрын

That's what I was thinking

@montinaladine3264

2 жыл бұрын

Not even a micrometer would be necessary, just an accurate vernier would be all that is required. Although a micrometer would be useful if disassembling the entire lifter and measuring the plunger size; however it couldn't be used for the internal bore, it would be back to the vernier for that.

I wiped out a very expensive custom cam , solid lifter sbc but I went with cheep no name lifters I believe you are absolutely correct. The cheep lifters even had the "edm" hole did break in on a dyno and ran Joe gibs oil still flat . Went with solid roller

Great video, thank you, I think we should find some manufacturers who will commit to adhere to correct high standards and then we can promote them to all the builders out there as someone they can trust...

If someone had enough money and knowledge they could become really wealthy by machining new engine parts for racers and everyone else.

I'd explain that factors include metallurgy, heat treatments, dimensional accuracy, surface finish, dull tools & operators, poor QC and general cost cutting, which can all safely be referred to in shorthand as "Chinesium". But the resident Bishops, Cardinals & Pope would surely call me an "Asshat" and an "Idiot". So carry on with "The Great Mystery" LOL! :D

@ec5838

3 жыл бұрын

Bwahahaha! Indeed so, but I would not be surprised if also, in conjunction with, some companies are flipping scrap parts lmao. Would not shock me at all.

@Haffschlappe

3 ай бұрын

Think about that one original GM lifter today Costs 275 Euro Times 16....wo can Pay such prices for OEM quality?

What is a good hydraulic flat tappet y’all have installed with good results as of today ?

The shop where I work bought a cam and hydraulic lifter set for an LS in a truck we had 2 lifters literally pop the snap rings out that hold the guts of the lifters inside it on fire up. Bought a good known name brand set replaced all 16 of them and worked great on fire up.

This hobby is beginning to go the way of the steam engine. Make friends with your machinists and engineers because stuff's just not gonna be around forever. And all you electronic ignition guys well good luck. Time is not static

Sounds like a great business opportunity for a small/medium machine shop here in the States. Rock auto Ebay Amazon Summit Jegs There are multiple ways of getting product to the customer. And direct sales is still a thing and far easier than it was 20-40 years ago. Just need to get word out. Maybe some sort of internet show(s) would test the product.

I had the same issue on a 1970 ford 302 that I rebuilt recently. Push rods were so sloppy I had to order longer ones. Shortly after start up 2 of the lifters came apart. I ended up sending the cam and lifters back to Comp Cams and ordering new from Jegs. I re-assembled it and now the original push rods fit properly. Car runs perfect now with no issues but I'm still out my labor, gaskets, fluids, etc. I'm staying clear of Comp Cams for a while.

There might be a backlog at machining facilities to where they just don't have enough CNC lathe time to machine more new lifters.

Couldn't you just mike out the total length of the lifter and compare it to the spec of a new lifter to tell if it has been machined at all?

@montinaladine3264

2 жыл бұрын

That was my first thought. Even good verniers will tell the story. Other people here have said the same thing. Not sure why he didn't mention that, it's a no-brainer to check them if you know this could be an issue.

My question is where are they getting old lifters from to re-use? There’s never been a ‘core’ charge incentive to return used lifters. Anyone I know just tosses them in scrap/ garbage. So all of these lifters can’t be used. I would say none of them are reused. Unless they were defective to begin with and sent back in the original box for a return. I would say the machining is what’s to blame because it’s done cheaply. I’ve worked with an engine builder for 5 years now, we have put together several flat tappet cam motors (hydraulic and solid lifters) and have not had any issues. So what we need to figure out is what is being done differently between engine builders? I also speculate and this is sort of confirmed by cam manufacturers that the cheaper out of the box type cams have a softer metallurgical core and thus wear out quicker which then takes the lifter with it. All of our cams are custom ground and use a harder core, so maybe that’s the difference in the total lobe failure.

@MrTheHillfolk

3 жыл бұрын

Lol I keep a couple old around cause it's a nice machined piece. Stupid stuff , maybe I need to trace a circle on something and a lifter is perfect. It's kinda like a repurposed tool. Haha I've got some Cummins 855 wristpins and those are handy as hell for all kinds of things. The damn things are solid!

@elmerfudpucker3204

3 жыл бұрын

From engine cores, when someone buys a remanufactured engine from a parts store, or rebuilder. When they return the original engine in as a core.

@TL-angzarr

3 жыл бұрын

@@elmerfudpucker3204 So? When was the last time engines came with flat tappets? There aren't that many pre 92 small block mopars left in junkyards. Go to most scrap yards and finding vehicles older than 10 years is difficult. You won't convince me that there is this huge stash of old LA motors fueling the aftermarket industry.

@mrdanforth3744

3 жыл бұрын

@@TL-angzarr Maybe that's why today's lifters are so junky. They stopped mass producing new flat tappet lifters when Detroit stopped making flat tappet pushrod engines around 1990, now even the supply of used ones is running thin.

@TL-angzarr

3 жыл бұрын

@@mrdanforth3744 bull pucky, yes the major car manufacturers did stop but the aftermarket has and continues to make new hydraulic lifters. It's easy to check go to any cam company selling proprietary lifters like Vern Schumann. Guys who are buying white box garbage from Napa might be having issues with reman. Tho I'm still skeptical of even that. The juice isn't worth the squeeze to reman a lifter unless it's something unobtainable. The cost of acquiring the old lifters, cleaning and sorting then remachining is high when lifters are essentially just bar stock.

Rebuilt my 440 around 2000,used Hughes cam and pushrods of custom length their shafts and adjustable rockers. Bought lifters from the Dodge dealership. HVHP Melling pump, stock windage tray, and pan and no issues to this day. Buddy built almost the same at the same time, and lifter noise with no miles replaced lifters, and the same sold it and got out of the hobby. Stock rockers and pushrods and local parts store lifters . It makes sense now always felt bad for him. It was on the internet then about lifters but no real explanation. Roller in a Mopar was sorta voodoo and didn't think a solid was for me, so did what I did. Thanks

I have a cold tic in my sbc , just thought it was from doing the basic refresh but do have a new cam and lifters, never had the tic before the rebuild, that cam company starts with an L, I do have 6 thousand fairly tough miles on it, still runs good, makes me think it doesn’t matter what brand cam, your still going to get the bulk lifter re branded.

@montinaladine3264

2 жыл бұрын

I would use and recommend Rhoads lifters. They are not overly more expensive but (IMO) they have a strict manufacturing tolerances, as they have a trusted name to protect.

Maybe we need to go to other American name brand lifters like Rhoads, but I don't know.

It's a metering valve problem. The have been changing it several times in the last years.

@blair79bear38

3 жыл бұрын

seen that myself on sbc hyd flat tappets. Thought I had it fixed but not. but it did run 10's of thousand of miles before it came back to bite me. a replacement cam and lifter ( neither carried the COMP name didn't even survive breakin. flat lobe / dished lifter syndrome

Outstanding! How to fix it.....I dont know, but much thanks to guys like you who figure this stuff out!

as of late, I am more likely to save old lifters and I have a local shop with a tappet grinder reface them. Then I will disassemble each, clean them. Time consuming but I sleep better than using new. Another failure point is if they arent spinning properly, due to cam tunnel misalignment, lifter bore index being off, incorrect lobe taper, or position in the block is off relative to lifter bore. Put a paint mark on each pushrod or lifter and run motor over by hand and watch each and make sure they are spinning.

im tellin ya even in 2021 its either pelicans or piss ants...how can a gearhead do anything without good parts? this seems too rampant to solve with any quickfix.