Things you are mentioned is not the game problem, it is your personal preferences in the game, because almost all of the takes which you mentioned feels the opposite for the vast majority of the players.

One of the poorest takes I've heard about a game. Who would have thought that an exploration based survival game would involve, check notes, exploration. utterly boneheaded.

I mean games are subjective but I can't fathom how this game would have missed anyone's expectations, provided one's expectations were reasonable

@mistercrankypants

4 ай бұрын

I'm about 90 hours in and level 24 I agree with the CC here. Have I had fun thus far? For sure, but it's clear to me that this game suffers from some poor fundamental design choices that will likely greatly diminish my desire to play more. Without a procedurally generated map which is perhaps the most glaring example one such poorly thought out fundamental design choice, all of the work put into mechanics is null and void after a few playthroughs. Even Valheim which is probably the gold standard at the moment with it's random maps suffers from similar problems, but has a crap-ton more replay value. I feel I've gotten a ton of entertainment from Valheim, but I digress. Sons of the Forest is another example of a static game. Once you've played it, what is there to do? You know where everything is. You know the win conditions. There is no sense of adventure other than the moments leading up to re-remembering how to do something you've already done. For some I suppose this is fine. You pay for your ticket to ride, ride, and then call it a day. What I'm interested in, however, is game designs that keep a player engaged far beyond a playthrough or two. Perhaps even a game that doesn't end with the last boss, but rather provides an much larger arc of progression. I've always thought, going back to EQ, wouldn't it be great if at the "end" you went into a portal and everything suddenly scaled up in difficulty? Rats would start hitting like the (previous to portalling) end level filler mobs, and so on until you did it again, and again. Progress would continue, houses and storage would all remain, and new further enhancements would be introduced to continue progress. They could change the environment to indicate one's world progress, ie different hues to things and naming enhancements. Hell, even going back to Wizardry, Bards Tale, etc the idea that mobs would go from rats, to nasty rats, to big nasty rats, to horrifying rats existed. In the case of Enshrouded with it's static map, new resource tiers could be added in new locations and in higher scarcity, guarded by the higher level mob unleashed by finishing world 1, etc. I mean, let's face it, we all want adventure and I just feel like Enshrouded is way too awesome to be 100 hours and then just put away. "Why put it away then?" you might ask. Well cool as it looks and feels for awhile, there's no adventure when you know what's over the next hill. At least I'd like to go over the next hill and find the silly scavenger mobs that previously just stood there taking a rain of blows until they died start lobbing acid, or parrying my hits, or hitting harder, or all of the above. I'd like to enter an area where I had to re-spec to complete it with saved templates, perhaps requiring a stealth build. Perhaps you'd have to lock in your previous skill choices at end game 1 and then earn more points moving forward, with subsequent skill point resets only wiping you back to the previous endgame lock. Why lock at all? Just to allow one to continue the playstyle while also experimenting with new skills without having to re-click a zillon skills. Hence you could eventually fill out the whole damn tree. But wait, you'd be OP af wouldn't you? No, because the more points you spent the harder the game difficulty would scale and you'd need to be more godlike. Perhaps the base, which at this point is just a rested buff recharge could become more significant. It's already your source of shroud protection to get into new areas that were previously insta-death with the "deadly shroud" mechanic, perhaps in world 2, world 3 etc. this would continue to be the case. They could easily tag on new maps, too, and even add in procedural maps. There's just a lot they could do to keep the game feeling adventurous and fresh that's sorely missing now. Is this all unreasonable? I don't see how. It's just a matter of design that gets around extending playtime through mechanics other than the preset step ladder grinds we're accustomed to. If nothing else we can dream. I think it definitely, absolutely bears discussion as we all want games to evolve.

@UniqueTechnique29

4 ай бұрын

@@mistercrankypants no game is meant to be played forever. You’ve spent 90 hours in the game for 30 bucks. Carry on

@wiglord

4 ай бұрын

i read through all of that because i respect you have an opinion! :) Thanks for posting it. I don't quite agree though, as I am happy with a game having a start and a finish, though fair to add higher difficulty tiers so you can master it or discover new stuff maybe? But I'd be happy with a game that focuses on having a start and a finish, because in that you can craft an adventure and feel like you've done something. No game will really last forever, but it seems that these survival ones do sacrifice good adventure mechanics for the sake of long term playability, especially in the multiplayer space. And that doesn't really work out well, especially when you have 4-6 of them come out in a year and the playerbases just jump through to another.

@mistercrankypants

4 ай бұрын

@@UniqueTechnique29 Yet. And yes, honestly, I'm satisfied for the 30 bucks.

its an exploration coop game so why do you think its forcing you to explore when the game is literally an EXPLORATION game if you dont want to explore dont play an EXPLORATION game

@mistercrankypants

4 ай бұрын

C'mon man, anyone can see this game is absolutely brimming with potential but it's far from amazing and it's healthy to criticize games. Yes. Enshrouded is an exploration game, or involves exploration certainly. It's also a one trick pony once your done pickaxing your way through the forced static progression loop only to end with all the building materials you could never need because why build a fancy house in a dead game. It's great he shared his thoughts. How dare anyone point out weak points in a game they find otherwise compelling, that they'd love even more if not for x y and z. It's possible to enjoy a game and still want it to be better. I can see many of his points. This game as it is today is like a very bad tomb raider game (crap puzzles, easy mobs with bad AI) with great graphics sound and amazing building. It could be soo much more though. It really should be. It might yet be. But it certainly won't be if everyone just bends over and gushes over it. When I was about 30 hours in I was loving Enshrouded. I then watched a streamer on twitch complaining about how the map was just god awful with all the mountains and pickaxing and other criticisms and honestly, I was a bit surprised. I was like, "what the hell is this guy on? I love this game so far." But you know, he was having fun anyway. I was enjoying his stream. Now I can see his POV and even agree with some of what he said. It's all good. Lastly, I think the CC does want to explore, he just wants the game to be more open instead of a more forced exploration path. For example you can't go into red shroud areas until you gather the materials to upgrade your shrine. You do that by following the quests. Great maybe for one play-though, but It is rather shallow. I think what he's suggesting is being able to do more early on, not being as limited as "go to area x, get material y to get to area z, to get material xx to get to area yy, to get to area zz, to .. ooo it's done, thanks for playing. An exploration game would be more like, do whatever the hell you want and discover things that will somehow help you. This game is like the scooby doo kids version of Valheim with all the quests forcing you along a set path. I'm sorry to bring V into this, it just got so many things better right out of the gate. To each his own though. This book I've written isn't just focused on you, it's a response that was brewing reading all the other hater posts as well. I wish you well.

I agree. The two friends I'm playing with are having a great time. I, however, just can't seem to get hooked. The progression system feels...awkward.

So you don't want to explore? Why play survival games then? Don't follow the quests all the time. Sometimes, I just pick a direction and go. It's a good game; it just doesn't work in the way that you expect. Maybe they should have ran it by you first. How dare they! I wonder why that you don't get many views? Focus on the positive. You are just coming across as whiny.

@mistercrankypants

4 ай бұрын

Wow, that's not what I got from this video at all. People act like it's a crime to discuss what they like and don't and why. I'll bet the better devs love this stuff. It's valuable feedback. Furthermore, I commend all content creators with actual thought out opinions no matter how misguided I might think they are. It takes a lot to put oneself out there, not just to stomach the ego attacks from a-holes and trolls, but to actually take the time to put it all together. Give the guy some props, don't tear him down. Tell him what you disagree with rather than sledge hammering him. I have a ton of opinions about games I'd love to share but don't because of the work and time it takes. Don't you want to live in a world where people help each other rather than crabs in a bucket? Nah, better to just tell him he's a whiner. I'm sure, like 100% sure, that this CC could put out videos just for views if that was his primary goal. Instead he's sharing his thoughts to promote discussion and improvements and hear what others think. He's clearly interested in game design and mentioned working on his own design. Be good to one another and I'm sorry if I came off as harsh. I just want people to learn that what they put out effects people, and ideally for the better. You thought his vid was whiny sounding, fair enough, you're definitely entitled to that and perhaps that will shape his future work. I'm just letting you know I didn't get that take. I heard a guy putting out feedback in the interest of game design improvements both in this and in future games.

@wiglord

4 ай бұрын

haha thanks cranky, i'm ok with the criticism, in fact in my new video I show that it's fine and I pretty much say what you say, I want people to put out their concerns to encourage the game to improve. But yeah don't mind the negativity on YT comments, this one was certainly not the worst :)

Stopped watching around two minutes in. Your criticism is fair however this is an early access game. There's content missing from the current beginning, and mid game, they'll fill in those gaps as they add content as well as end game content. The dungeons/raids are missing as well (You can find an unfinished dungeon south of the pike in the shroud). Bottom line, we've only scratched the surface of the game and they'll be filling in content that's missing and balancing crafting and pace as they go.

I agree the dungeons feel a little hollow and I wish there was a greater diversity of enemies, but otherwise it's like we're playing two different games. I played with friends and solo and I definitely prefer this game solo. I have a melle build, but have a staff for extra healing, a bow for long range damage and a wand as backup and use all of them in the end game area. I don't get how you've had to play through classes you didn't want, I built a class and I've added the extras onto my melle guy to make him more versatile, my friends have a magic guy and an archery guy and we've all completed the game solo. I find it engaging because it's like a mini souls game with survival elements. My only complaints are it's too easy, I want dual wield with a greater amount of melle move sets and there's no mob scaling when playing with friends.

@hitthegoat

4 ай бұрын

It's early access, I never understand these types of criticisms in a game that's very openly unfinished

@mistercrankypants

4 ай бұрын

@@hitthegoat True, you make a good point. I do however feel there's a difference between healthy criticism and pissing and moaning about how a game sucks because x y and z. This is how ideas become reality, fellow gamers talking about what they like and don't.

I am really loving this game, but I agree that there is definitely the 1 issue of needing to plan to make the adventure rather than actually having the adventure. Doing the towers and and bosses and puzzles and such was just the chore so you can get the next thing, rather than being the reward center. For me I'm a builder so I want to unlock all the pieces to build a better home, but everything is so heavily gated that I had to finish the game to get the parts to build my base, and the base is the thing I'm supposed to come back to and enjoy... That said, the base does have a function at higher endgame stuff, it gives you your stamina bonus which starts to be noticeable around the 30 min mark if you have it or don't, and eventually extends up to over an hour (1:07 is current max I believe). But you don't really see this as a feature until you're wayyy late in the game because of all the grinding of resources you need to do to get there. In this way valheim definitely did this aspect better in that you could very much just build stuff at any stage... you might tear it down later, but you at least could be building and maybe new materials would change how you build, but it wouldn't change the entire game. To build a satisfying base in this game you need to be 3/4 done with the content to get an active start (collect all the NPCs and their benches), and collect all the wild blocks you might want, and that's almost the entire game.

@wiglord

4 ай бұрын

yes one of the main drawcards for my mate was the building system, and we have the same issue, progression locks for the build system. Personally though I would play through the story to unlock the fancy blocks and then focus on master builds after i've done the content. But that is when the game doesn't have functional base use for the quest line, if I have to create stuff for game functionality i'll put effort in along the way. Thanks for the reply btw, I like your take.

@ProjectChimeraEnhancedCo-cc2th

4 ай бұрын

FYI quick update, I have managed to get the stamina bonus to 1:10 @@wiglord

First of all, the video is not poorly made. I think you have talent for structuring the video and delivery of your points. However I feel that a lot of the “issues” you portrayed are not issues. Most people have seemed to really enjoy this game. Having put over 85 hours into the game in the first week myself, I like most of the systems in this game. I didn’t feel like I was ever forced to explore, instead I felt like I was questing to progress through the story and along the way you find your materials to prepare you for the next, new and higher leveled areas. I do feel that the world is a little empty, however this is the 2nd week of early access and the devs seem more than willing to work with the community to realize Their vision. My only real critique of the game would be that for end game, instead of finding the best loot in chests, you instead either find best loot that drops from bosses, or you craft best in slot gear with materials that require you to fight those end game bosses. I did enjoy your video, but I truly believe that most of your complaints with the game seem to be in the minority of players

@wiglord

4 ай бұрын

Thanks for the polite disagreement! I am glad you're getting enjoyment out of the game, I too am enjoying aspects of it, but I am certainly not feeling the same about the materials as I explore. Doing the quest lines to upgrade the benches, i've returned to put them to use, only to find that I now need more materials that I hadn't discovered, or couldn't craft until I unlocked another bench's upgrade. Perhaps I'm just not exploring the right areas? I am not sure, but I am not pleased with this design overall, compared to a similar PvE exploration/quest game like conan exiles, the progression tree still requires explored materials, but unlocks are on exp instead, which means I can target what I want to craft. It was more fun progressing there than here.

As of writing this, I currently have 96.9 play hours on Steam. I think your critiques are valid, but for me, they were little obstacles to feeling like I got my money's worth out of the game. Exploration was a joy. My main gripes are that I did not like having to tear down and rebuild my base because I unlocked a new building block that I preferred the esthetics of; it felt like I wasted my time. Farming also felt tedious and unpleasant.

I have to say this is a personal preference and gameplay style issue. No game can be all things to all people. This is a game that just doesn't fit your playstyle. That is not a flaw in your playstyle nor a flaw in the game itself. It is just a bad game fit. There are games I dislike and that is okay. I find many of the issue you had with the game I don't have. I don't have a problem exploring gathering items to gear up, doing so then doing the content available for my gear level and character level. Moving to a new area, exploring, gathering resources and gearing up a new and doing the content around me. I find the people I play with also are enjoying the game. I find that there is zero grind to the game but that might be because i enjoy the gathering and exploration but you don't. If people are doing the same task some one person enjoys it and the other doesn't only one person will find it a grind. I want to make clear that I think it is perfectly okay to dislike the game. I suggest you try Nightingale which releases Feb 22nd. PS I think anyone that plays with a controller on PC is a scrub. ; )

@wiglord

4 ай бұрын

haha i am building my tps game with a controller in mind, it's much easier, but I am playing mouse and keyboard for enshrouded!

I'm playing the game solo and loving every minute of it. Having to do every little thing myself is extending the game time. And at 50 hrs in with more to go, I'm definitely getting my money's worth. For 24 quid this game is a bargain

@wiglord

4 ай бұрын

I am glad you've found something you can enjoy! that's always good news for you. I've kept an eye on the steam stats though, the players whom have reached level 5 has jumped only 10 percent to 57%, though just today the devs announced they have reached 2 million sales. Whilst that's just over a million people who have reached level 5, that's also almost a whole million people who haven't played for the 2 hrs it takes to get to level 5. (and 500k that haven't crafted a glider or grapple) EDIT: Further look onto steam and there are a fair few negative reviews on the page left over the past few days, people that ARE playing past level 5 are complaining about the same things I have been. I think I might have to relegate this one to a nice house building sim because that's about all it has going for it at the moment.

I was very excited for this, and am somewhat enjoying it. But im feeling like its missing something. I cant put my finger on it, but its almost a very good game, i just cant explain whats missing. Im loving the base building, i have a 5 story underground mansion in progress atm. Trying to find out how far down i can go lol But as i said, theres something missing, not sure what, but i hope whatever it is, is patched in soon.

@RM_3D

4 ай бұрын

in the same boat. like I feel like this should be great, but its not. I think ii just need a bit more complexity

I like this game so much ❤.. has potential to be even greater 💪

I feel that people nowadays are content with the game being a theme park rather than a challenge. Plus designing and implementing challenging PVE can be quiet the ressource burner especially for indie devs. These two factors are a breeding ground for lazy formulaic game design. Why create something intricate when the safest bet is to cater to mass adoption. Don't be discouraged by all these commenters disparaging you, you make total sense. These kids were weaned on the weakest and laziest formulaic games there are. At some point buying and enjoying these type of games becomes a Pavlovlian response. You can see this in the marketing and shipping of genres. Titles are shipped as multiplayer, but by design divide up the player base to cut down on dedicated servers and overall bandwith to the point they feel like single player with an option to invite a friend. Or a title like Enshrouded that is shipped as "survival" is basically a cozy game with a dungeon option more akin to stardew valley. People just mindlessly gobble up mediocrity like there is no tomorrow. When you try to get them to reflect they immediately become defensive.

I feel like its got all the mechanics i want they are just very vanilla so its not very exciting. Hopefuly once it develop some more, it gets a bit more juice and life into it

I share *some*...but not all points. Coming from Conan Exiles, Valheim, and No Man's Sky and having played those early on, I manage my expectations with a early access and think there is a lot of room for development and improvement. My current dislike is the combat, its slow and clunky, especially if you're playing melee. I also agree that the world is too empty, the mechanic of chopping down the giant mushrooms, if they only give you a point once, then you should have to remove them only once. Once removed, the area should be 'healing' and new life returning to it. In this it's following Valheim where only life is the player and a couple of npcs, and the variety of critters is too small. But if they do like Hello Games and commit to improvement, it has some fantastic pillars to build upon. Time will tell.

This is the game. Like it or don't like it. A million sales in just four days says a lot of people like it. Why would Keen change a successful game to suit your expectations? Allow modding? Yes 100% agree that modding should be allowed on all games. This way you can mod the base game into the game you want. But asking the devs to change a success is hubris.

@mistercrankypants

4 ай бұрын

I hope Keen just reads the positive stuff and ignores all criticism and doesn't improve a GD thing, because money. Sigh. Nah, I'm thankful people want more and I'd just guess Keen cares about content like this. Not because it's negative and might impact their bottom line, but because it's helpful feedback or at the very least gives them ideas to consider.

lawd have mercy...no comment, lol. Good luck

i disagree with almost everything you said grinding gear? common man it takes like 5 minutes to make a new set of gear i will say scince you haven't made it that far the final gear set is a bit absurd for no reason about 560 flax the timers on camps now reset after 30 minutes the exploration is great i do not want npcs enless they are outside of a hard boss with a side quest to enter. the bosses are way too easy anyway ai is not challenging at all same with the puzzles now labeling this a survival game is kinda a joke with no reason too eat food but for buffs and making the recipes needs too change they need a stability system in this game scince their adding in raids like valheim the shroud is not deadly at all i feel like they arent restricting areas like they should the point in upgrading a alter is too go too new areas but u can pretty much skip them by climbing a mountain and you are not gated by armor as hard as id like i also feel like they should have a level debuff if you are fighting enemies way above youre level i found myself at 15 fighting 23s some water and weather would be more immersive i also hate the fact you are very limited and it is just pointless too not build where they want you can live in the area bellow or above just starting out fighting the same enemies is pretty annoying also the fact that they dont really have a name also i dislike how in later areas im still finding bombs and garbage in chest etc but the building makes grinding so fun for me modding would be great

Try a stun arrow

Sounds like this isn't your type of game. Exploration is a huge and exciting part of this game.

Interesting opinions. Much of this seems to be down to personal taste, which is a legit reason for it to not be attractive to you. I'm not sure about the perception that dungeon delving was a main part of the game. Was it advertised as such, or was this an assumption that was made? The world does feel empty and dead. This might be intentional, I don't know. I, too, would like settlements to become repopulated, perhaps with a loop where they can come under attack and you have to decided to defend them. I have no idea what you are talking about having to play through classes you didn't want to. I've not encountered this issue at all. How far did you get in to the game? I know that by the time you reach the woods, materials are quite abundant. You can easily find large amounts of them in locations you are naturally going to. True, there are a couple of exceptions, but I see by the latest update that they are addressing this already by adding new material nodes around. I do wish bases had more purpose in the game. A friend of mine just wants to make a box, with beds on one side, a fire in the middle, crafters on the other side, and comfort and crafting items just thrown wherever to get the points from them.

I don't think the game is perfect by any means but I really do not agree with some of your points. For example you said, "farming materials so you can farm the next tier of materials until you get to the top tier only works for pvp games and not coop games". That is just pure wrong actually. This kind of progression system has been present in many coop-based survival games all the way from grandaddy Minecraft to other titles like Valheim. There's nothing fundamentally wrong about this kind of progression system in a coop game in fact it's actually good if done well that is why it's almost always used in these survival games because it does force you to explore to progress. Another point you made that is just wrong because without forcing you to explore and gather materials you could be a level 1 and go all the way to get endgame items just by walking. This kind of progression system actually feels natural since you explore till you hit a wall you gather your resources you craft what you need then you go out and explore again. You should not be a level 1 and then stumble onto the strongest items in the game what would be the point of playing you already basically beat the game. Games like Minecraft is not a pvp based game it's definitely built on its coop and building mechanics with a slice of pvp there if you want it. But the pvp in Minecraft is probably the worst feature in the entire game. I would argue having this kind of progression system in a pvp based game is actually bad for it. Because what would inevitably happen is you get to the final tier materials and then what? The first-tier materials are all worthless and no one picks them up. This kind of system actually works very poorly in pvp based games because of this reason. Having a system like what Diablo 2 did with its Runewords is actually better for pvp based games since a low rune will still have value because it's needed along with high runes to complete a runeword. There's other stuff you said that I don't agree with too, but this is getting too long. I enjoyed it and like the game, I actually just finished up with every mission in early access this game gives me Valheim meets Botw vibes. The only thing I really wished was there were more in-depth RPG elements and if the bosses were a little bit tougher.

@wiglord

4 ай бұрын

thanks for the reply! I respect your argument, and you do raise some good points. But I would point out that I got the ghost glider, and you can do this from level 1, there is a YT tutorial out there that shows you how and it's pretty easy to follow, I did it at level 7. I do agree there is a better way to do the materials by tier for progression, I just don't think that the method in which enshrouded handles it is a way that works well, and despite the comments here I think I am not alone in this! You can make it less of a chore by modifying it a bit, perhaps they can add NPCs you can recruit from villages that you clear out, and they perhaps generate these materials for you over time. Instead you have people cheesing the game by making farms for chest items at these locations....

@edgybravo4287

4 ай бұрын

@@wiglord I actually didn't know you could get the ghost glider level 1 but I don't think it's intended. It makes sense if you try hard enough you could get to it. That kind of stuff happens in every game people go out of their way to break it but I doubt someone would randomly figure that out without a tutorial cuz it would be so ridiculous. The chest farming is pretty op I don't like it either actually. I didn't even know it was a thing until one of my buddies told me but I never abused it. That would be easily fixed with an internal world timer that's built into the world instead of resetting every time you reload. They should do something about that it really is too op.

This is a shitty take.

@hardc0l2e

4 ай бұрын

I agree

no one cares what u think, bro

@wiglord

4 ай бұрын

Says the youtube commenter

@mistercrankypants

4 ай бұрын

I care immensely as should anyone remotely interested in game design, or by logical extension, gaming. I know, you're trolling, and you won because I bit. Congrats bro!

@thedudeabides3138

4 ай бұрын

Wow!, check it out, an actual live Troll out in the wild! Free from its Mom’s basement and just roaming the plains of the internet threads. I have it on good authority I shouldn’t feed you guys, which is a pity, coz you look hungry.