I think the Warden title was basically an appeasement to the defeated kings of Westeros. You can't call yourself "king" anymore, but you have the same regional powers you had before the Conquest. The Stormlands of house Durandon were defeated and given to the new house Baratheon, who were tied by blood to King Aegon himself. No need to appease them. The Riverlands were defeated and the ruling house Hoare from the Iron Islands was exterminated. The Tullys were a nothing house, and got jumped up by being loyal to Aegon. No need to appease them further. Dorne was never conquered, so a Warden of the South was needed to stand against them. The Gardners were destroyed, so the loyal Tyrells got the job - this itself focussed the Reach's local issues on them, as the Florents or Hightowers were probably much better placed to succeed, therefore preventing the most powerful region from rebelling because of its internal divisions. Great video by the way! In regards to your approach I think of the Wardens as all equal to each other, so the King (overall Protector of the Seven Kingdoms) would have to order a Warden to support another, as they all acknowledged him as above their own station as a consequence of their defeat during Aegons invasion.

@MaynardCrow

2 жыл бұрын

Excellent explanation. I thought it was a regional customs and traditions thing, but you make a good point.

@feral7523

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly!..

@yakirchernin6015

2 жыл бұрын

I always understood it as "Ex Kings". and it have meaning as much as people are willing to give it meaning

@yakirchernin6015

2 жыл бұрын

Also. In the books, it seems, Warden one step away from the crown- Rob Stark was declared King so easily. Arryn gather A special knight guard-sort of a royal guard. It's sense of "nationality', I dont think the Rivers have this national feel.

@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195

4 ай бұрын

But there was more than four kings?

I thought the “Warden” title was just meant to mirror the king’s “Protector of the realm” title. Like in the beginning when Ned upholds the law ‘in the name of king Robert’ I thought it was a similar thing to that. They defend it when the king physically can’t.

@joannecassell8825

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly.

A lord is a land owner. A warden is a military position is how I’m splitting it. If you can make Jaime Lannister warden of the east then when war comes even the lord paramount has to obey his orders.

I think the reason the warden title exists is because of geography and resources. The North is so distan from the rest of 6 that in the case of invasion they have the autonomy to act. The vale is separated from the other kingdoms by mountain so in the case of conflict the region is separated enough warrant the title. The same for the westerlands they are separated by a massive mountain range and it insulates them like the vale. The reach is the region that grows the most food and needs to be protected by the south from dornish raiders. For riverlands and stormlands the reason they are not wardens is there proximity to kings landing and would be more in the king’s sphere of influence.

@kat8559

2 жыл бұрын

This is probably the right answer

@jacobenke7936

3 ай бұрын

100% this. Lords have a right and a duty to defend their lands. Wardens have the authority to act with the king's voice on a limited scale because sometimes it's needed. The King can't be everywhere. Assigning Wardens eliminates questions in chain of command.

Aegon's conquest had essentially a singular goal: unite Westeros under a single king. By replacing the 7 kingdoms with 4 wardens, their identity as "kings" and "kingdoms" is stripped away in favor of a title and boundaries created by Aegon. In my opinion, the warden system was created to undermine the kingdom system.

Teddy is the true warden of Westeros.

@matematicarka

2 жыл бұрын

praise teddy

The joys of Feudalism. My token two cents would be; the Wardens are tasks to defend the realm from threats in thier area. Because overlords were not generally obligated to defend their subordinates, that's the whole point of them, but a royal degree would compel compliance. Also you are applying the Social Contract theory, which wasn't invented until post Renaissance; Lords owed nothing to thier subjects. More importantly most Lords were expected to be completely self sufficient.

I think the Wardens can act in the "name of the king." When Ned beheaded the deserter, he prefaced that speech with: In the name of Robert Baratheon... While you wouldn't need the kings permission to defend yourself and small folk, I imagine there would be some instances where you can invoke the powers of the king.

Questioning why they need a Warden when that's already what lords do: there are still a ton of lords, having a Warden means they know who's in charge and don't have to squabble about it amongst themselves. Also, it was an honorary title given to the kings and lords who surrendered to Aegon. It just replaced "King" in most cases.

I understood it as a step above the Lord paramount of the region, and might give you primacy when 2 regions are threatened. So in a war against Dorne, if the Reach and Stormlands send armies, the Warden takes control, rather than the Tyrells and Baratheons arguing about it. Its kinda like leaving the oldest kid in charge when the parents are busy. Alternatively, it might just have been a hollow honour to begin with, just as a consolation title to the former kings, to show they're the big dogs still in their region. You're JUST Lord Umber, Im Lord Stark, Warden of the North.

My understanding is that a warden is simply an old title that is more ceremonial than anything. And basically having full authority to act as he sees fit to guard the kingdom outside the authority of the king. And perhaps the title was come up with during Aegon's time. Or just after him. Where the warden title is to protect against internal threats (rebellions and such), so policing the other houses and such? Even Ned said that Robin should keep the title and when Robert said something to the effect of hard times might come or something (been a while since I read the book.) Ned replied with the opinion of that Robin should keep it and if a war comes then he could give it to someone else temporarily.

It was probably initially created by Aegon because in the early days of his reign the kingdom wasn't truly united. The Wardens were most likely used as a hopefully uniting force for the regions as well as a subtle warning, i.e. we are close to the king and we've got our eye on you kind of deal. Because of their favor with the king they were able to leverage that into better benefits (marriages, taxes, trade routes, castles.) Now the title is more ceremonial but if there is a war I bet the Wardens get first pick of the spoils. War of the nine penny kings loot probably went first to the king and then to the Wardens

It's an honor system. I don't mean like you keep yourself honest kind of thing, I mean like if banners are called the people will judge the amount of honor you have based on your response. If you are summoned and don't answer you will be in trouble. Maybe not today, but you will down the line. In this kind of world "in trouble" may mean that your House and bannermen get told you pulled the front line card the next time there is a battle. At the same time, if you get summoned for some nonsense bullshit, then refuse, depending on circumstances you may be held in high esteem or not. Tywin is a perfect example. Aerys summoned him, and pissed him off, so he left. But the smallfolk liked the way he ran his area, so you can't just make him not the Warden anymore. Don't over think it. Its a system built and maintained ultimately by men like Ned Stark. Men who will literally die for their honor on a moment's notice. King says go, they are loyal dragon-men from down Crackclaw way, so they go.

Basically.. If the War is in the East.. Then the Warden of the East is the General in charge over all other Wardens. The location determines who THE main General is.. Which is important when it comes to proud High Lords such as Tywin .. When the Iron Island rebellion happened, Ned was "in charge' *ahead* of Tywin. Which meant, the rank was King Robert, then Ned..and *then* Tywin.. It only matters bc of proud Lords.. like the cluster fk of a mess in Meereen right now. Had they had the same thing, then one death would not have thrown them into rotating generals like it did. If Ned had fallen in battle during the Iron Rebellion, the Warden of the West would take control until the king could name the next Warden of the North..etc.. Tywin would have to take the orders of the Warden of whatever region the war is in AND the King. So he couldn't disregard the Warden of the North's orders (if the War is in the North) just bc he didn't like them.. And couldn't say he was "waiting on the King".. The Warden title already grants them that power..

@abdiasisbilow5887

2 жыл бұрын

Nah, the king is always in charge, If there is a war in the east then the king will be the main commander and the other wardens will be his lesser generals or commanders after the king. And if the warden of the north dies then regent will be chosen from the north, it would be more preferable if the regent is for example ned family member or someone close to him by blood. For example benjen stark would be regent until Rob stark comes of age.

The origin of the titles of the four great wardens is the Conquest. The first Baratheon lord was already Hand so he didn't need to be a warden. The Tyrells were made wardens of the South for surrendering Highgarden. The other three wardens were the kings who bent the knee. The title of Warden was Aegons way of saying "Thanks for the Kingdom"

I think the Wardens have the special title because those houses ruled those lands for centuries before the Conquest. While there were other kings, they weren’t as prominent and/or they didn’t have the same degree of power and influence. So the Warden title is a way to honor those houses that gave up their crowns. The Tyrells weren’t kings, but they were given Highgarden and the power that went along with it. The Riverlands would fall under the direct protection from the King, I would think. With any of the Wardens being required to assist if called on.

I believe that tywin wanted Jaime to be named warden of the east until sweet Robin could lead armies. So a warden is a battle commander for a region. Another example could be the riverbanks where hoster Tully ruled, but the blackfish led Tully forces

The Wardens are essentially titles for the 4 strongest great lords. The stormlands and the riverlands are the weakest of the traditional kingdoms. For example The Tyrells can summon 70 thousand swords so they would naturally take command over any southern army. The war of the 5 kings shows us how pathetic the Riverlords are in comparison to the strength of the Westerlands and the North. The Vale has yet to flex it muscles as they are traditionally an isolationist kingdom hiding behind the mountains but I have a hard time seeing a Western Army make short work of them the way they did the Riverlords.

@oconnor6456

2 жыл бұрын

Well, I don't think the Stormlands are really weak. Compared to the Reach, despite the numerical inferiority the Stormlands won the most number of conflicts that's happened between them.

@kiddbuu5178

2 жыл бұрын

Hold on one of the huge reasons why the riverlands are so weak is that the majority of the rebellion was fought there and in the blackfyre rebellions the same. The strongest river lords weren't loyal like the freys and Branden never truly calls the banners and gathers his men in their entirety he spreads them too thin trying to protect all their borders which isn't possible in the Riverlands.

@sgcraig2430

2 жыл бұрын

@@kiddbuu5178 All of that is true but it also simply proves my point that the riverlands are weak. Whether that’s because they are largely indefensible due to their lack of natural borders or because the Tully’s simply don’t have control over their banner-men. The Frey’s only fought with the other Riverlords because of the proposed marriage pact with the Starks/Tully’s. What other liege lord would allow such insolence ? Imagine a lord refusing to allow Tywin Lanninster to cross his bridge. Even Rose Bolton bid his time plotted in secret.

@kiddbuu5178

2 жыл бұрын

@@sgcraig2430 under hoster Tully that wasn't the case though. Even with all the disadvantages the riverlands under hoster were very strong. I think that you're overlooking the facts that the riverlords very quickly found themselves surrounded and divided. They had no reason to think Robert and Ned would be killed in such a short amount of time. I just don't think they're all that weak. They had some huge losses after the rebellion houses which were strong allies fell into disarray like the Whents. The blackwoods. Hadn't had the time to recover where as the two houses youre talking about didn't participate at all in the rebellion. Its not just a leadership issue. Its also that the lannisters and the Tyrrells were treacherous untrustworthy bastards. If they had been true bannermen Robert never would have won the rebellion.

@sgcraig2430

2 жыл бұрын

@@oconnor6456 I put the Stormlands as the weakest of the 2 mainly because they lost a lot of territory after Aegon’s conquest and they also don’t stack up economically to the richest of the 7 kingdoms (the reach). Though militarily they are a martial kingdom and are quite fierce in battle I just don’t think they have the numbers.

It’s real simple - just think of the wardens as essentiallly middle managers. Instead of the king having to send 100’s of ravens to every house he can send like 7 or so and then relies upon the Wardens to parsec the information to the rest of his “employees”

Perhaps the purpose was to make it easier to depose bloodlines, since the title can be removed at a whim for someone else. They can remain some sort of lord, and, in the Warden, be given a new overseer, (or thinly veiled pretense to "provoke" invasion when stiffling rebellion). The Lannisters wanted 2 at once

The Tully's are "Lord Paramount" of the trident. Different from a regular lord

@MaynardCrow

2 жыл бұрын

It's a regional thing. There are many differences between different kingdoms from custom and tradition.

Feels good to watch one as soon as it drops for a change. Love and best of wishes guys.

North, South, Easr, and West all have major cities as well as wardens. Meanwhile, the riverlands, dorne, and the stormlands have only towns, and no wardens. Coincidence?

Traditionally, the Hand of the King is the commander of the royal armies. If forces from outside a Wardens doman were required I would imagine that the Warden would request the King or his Hand for support and the King or Hand would send orders to the Lord Paramount of the regions to send troops. As with the early attempts on Dorne, the Tyrells were left to rule Dorne after Aegons conquest of Dorne.

I think the Wardens are spesficaly called upon during an invasion or rebellion. And I do think they can take order houses from other regions too join. So, say if the Wildings attack in the North and passed the wall, I think House Stark would be able to call the Riverlands up. It seems like all the Wardens could probably call upon the Riverlands and Stormlands, technically speaking. And the only reason I think Robert went it, was because he was Robert. I don't think the King would have to go there. Because if multiple invasion happens at once, they kinda have to focus on different fronts. Like take Westerlands attacking Riverlands. They had too go too the King. Not sure if they could go too the other Wardens.

I believe Wardens keep the other Lord's in check. Settling conflicts or squabbles between the other lesser houses. Also, they do act autonomously in case of invasion, due to the length of time it takes to notify the crown. They are the ones that have to answer to the king about what goes on in their district.

After Aegon conquest, it was important to gain the loyality of the great old houses, most of them were kings before. On the other hand, Orys Baratheon, was born a bastard and gain one of the great houses of westeros and house Tully were honored by Aegon with the riverlands, there were no need to give them more titles. I am a fan of your fantastic work. Thank you very much.

Thanks dave and Mary Ellen. A warden is like a military governor. The title was used in British system. Warden of the tower of London for example.

I know I’m way late to this party, but could it mean they are the only ones allowed to pass sentencing in their territory without the kings leave? So essentially, Lord Tully cannot behead a lord of the veil for doing something in the river land without checking with Ned Stark first.

As always I enjoy your video. I love all the topics you two cover.

I think Ageon needed to give the kings he turned into lords a empty title so they would still command the former kingdoms they ruled. That's why the Baratheons and Tullys aren't wardens. Oris became the leader of house Baratheon so didn't need a vain title and the Tullys became the liege lords and got rid of Harren the black so they were happy.

I kind of view it as a military title separate from the great lord title, ie Jamie Lannister potentially becoming warden of the east. So it’s a military title divided by region so that when shit goes down, the chain of command is in place for that entire region, by the king’s command. Though you’d think it would be more based on merit. Also, aren’t the wardenships geographic- they’re the “furthest out” points of the kingdom (at least by the time Aegon created the titles).

From a historical point of view, Wardens had special powers delegated by the monarchy to them for the protection of a certain area. In the UK they were usually on the borders between England and Wales and England and Scotland. There were three in the Scottish border, east, middle and west marches and each had their own Warden. Often these were from powerful local families, such as the Percy’s of Alnwick. Sometimes outsiders were used such as Lord Hunsdon and his sons. Hunsdon is an interesting figure, he was reportedly the bastard son of Henry VIII

The warden I think most likely doesn't need to have any big meaning behind it we get an explanation for the first Norden and the rest is determinable by logical thinking. The big fancy title of warden is just that once Aegon said someone needs to take a close look at Dorbe so he gave away a big fancy title to make it seem like an honour and after that a precedent was created the North got a warden for the wildlings the east got one for the iron Borns etc. There is no big reason behind it and it doesn't make much sense but in that regard it perfectly mirrors how many titles of nobles in the middle ages were just for stroking their egos

Wardens basically have the authority of the king, when the king isn't present. Say you are a lord or common folk and you have a grievance it is the responsibility of the king to mediate or pass judgement on those things, but if your in the North of down in Oldtown you don't wanna have to travel all the way to Kings Landing to see the king. The Riverland and Stormlands don't matter that much in this instance cause they are close enough to the capitol to just go there and see the actual king, we even see this in A Game of Thrones when Riverlords and smallfolk come to tell about the Mountain. Wardens basically act in major areas in the same way as the Hand of the King has the power to pass judgement when the king isn't present.

Warden mean “used to be a King”. When the invasion happened it was the kingdom of the isles and rivers. The riverlands weren’t a kingdom by themselves when Aegon came so no Warden status. The stormlands gave up territory to make the crownlands and you cant have more than 1 king in a province so it goes right to the king himself

Thank you for finding George's quote! To me it sounds like the Wardens are lords powerful enough to protect the external borders, so they would be expected to organise the defense of those borders in the region they were assigned. It is an acknowledgement of power, so in a way it's an honour to have that title. Maybe rather than the title conveying power, it conveys responsibility? And yes, it creates a hierarchy of command if other local lords are involved. In your example, if the Warden of the West came to support the Tullys to defend their borders, the Warden would be the supreme commander.

I don't know if it's from something else, or if you guys made it, but I just want to take a moment to say I really dig the little theme song y'alls (yous guys!) have here

Really interesting podcasts guys. In the case of the Grey joy rebellion, as Lord Eddard and Tywin had paid the brunt of the war expenses, King Robert properly allowed them a big share of the spoils as compensation

Turning Kings into Dukes / Wardens keeps the power structure in place without change by adding a new sub-king tier- the Warden is as you said like a Govenor- he deals with any internal issues- but has the authority to request aid from the King- anyone below them must first seek aid from the Warden. it also means that all of Aegons new subjects don't have to go to their new strange king for legal things, and keeps a certain familiarity and a smooth transition of power

The Riverwinds in storm lands could be called to whatever warden and the king so chooses to defend whatever incursion is happening

I think the more interesting question is when house Gardener was overthrown they were replaced with house Tyrell and named wardens but when Harren the Black(the king of the rivers) was overthrown they seemed to have been replaced by the Tully's but not named wardens, why?

War of 9 Penny Kings was the Crown declaring war and binging the battle to the step stones. The king calls his banners, which to him is the wardens, to field their armies. It takes a long time to assemble the banners, but that’s what the Wardens are for. Presenting a large united army to approach the Step Stones is better than a bunch of smaller battalions operating independently of each other. So the wardens need listen to the Crown’s commands and call their banners to group however the Master of War commands to. Hed have a large say w/ commanding the generals and Lords who themselves will command the Houses and armies who’ve sworn fealty to them. Larger scale warfare seems like it would be easier in some aspects bc you’d just call all available Lords and their banners to come and serve. You have time and numbers in your side. Smaller scale warfare w/ small armies attacking at random and being more mobile could seem like a more complicated problem. Other Lords may not deem it a big threat and value it as much. Honors that come w/ distinguishing yourself in a war fighting for the crown are incomparably higher than honors that’s could come from putting down small scale rebellions and raid that target villages and small folk of Oldtown and the Westerland and aren’t a real threat to the realm

Its like that scene in the show where Jon meets Dany and she has 12 titles. It is a way to appease the Lords' egos.

Storms end seems to be pretty close to kings landing so the distance thing doesn't seem to be a problem when calling an army

But in books Littlefinger was given the Warden of the Riverlands title. It was even specified that lord of Harrenhall is the warden of the riverlands. Which in facts makes the whole idea of a warden even more weird…

@huberthepner3754

2 жыл бұрын

Was it really said that EVERY lord of Harrenhall is a Warden of Riverlands? Citation needed

@alexturlais8558

2 жыл бұрын

I thought he was made lord paramount of the riverlands?

@neriumsuitedher

2 жыл бұрын

Lord Paramount of the Trident.

@RevealTheStyle

2 жыл бұрын

@@alexturlais8558 yeah, I guess it was!

An explanation is given by Ser Eustace Osgrey in A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, when he talks about the Little Lion. The Ospreys were wardens of the north march when the Green Kings ruled. When the main forces of the Reach were away, the West invaded so it fell to the warden to defend the Reach. So it is a military title, and I think you are overlooking some situations where the Warden title may get other lords to respond when they may not want to. So granting these titles to former kings is keeping in tradition for Aegon’s conquest. As far as compensation, it seems plunder and war repayments were common features in this world. I imagine wardens get that money

Hey,great topic! Like you're touching on it!

I would imagine Wardens would have more control of resources and authority over troops with conflicting lords. Say Jamie being in control over The East and West being a huge problem for the south being able to cut the north from protecting the South and cutting off the North. Or the Erie consolidating bloodlines through fostering and marriage with the North and the West and Barathians. Plus it keeps the regions at arms length and antagonistic to each other and not teaming up.

@thisguy8106

2 жыл бұрын

This is exactly it. They're generals and it's all about rank. If the War is in the East.. Then the other Wardens are below rank of the Warden of the East AND the King.. And so on..

@thisguy8106

2 жыл бұрын

The titles are more about trying to maintain control over super proud Lords like Tywin.. Who would hate to take orders from anyone other than The King.. But HAS to bc it's already decided who is in charge based on where the War is.

Hi, everyone first comment. Quality content you guys. Love you

@kamelzyadeh490

2 жыл бұрын

You were a few seconds late behind yours truly 😁

In my mind, the Warden title was created as a kind of royal office given to the certain lords, specifically the ones with a long history of dealing with formidable external threats, the discretion to call thousands of bannermen with the crown's implicit trust that they were facing a genuine threat, rather than possibly raising a force for rebellion. With the exception of the Tyrells, who just seem to love amassing fancy titles, none of these great houses who hold wardenships are referred to as "Lord Paramount" of their region. The Baratheons probably weren't given a wardenship because they were meant to act as a shield for King's Landing, given how close the Stormlands are to the capital and the fact House Baratheon was founded by the first Hand of the King, who was (supposedly) Aegon's half-brother. Furthermore, Shipbreaker Bay in the Stormlands, the main route by which invaders from Essos would attack the region, is a well-known danger to unfamiliar ships; and if they landed in Cape Wrath, they would have to make their way through the Rainwood. As for the Dornish/Warden of the South angle, the fancy title would have been a convenient means of buying Tyrell loyalty, which Aegon the Conqueror wouldn't have felt the need to do with Orys Baratheon. As for the Tullys, it makes sense that given their central location and land borders with the four wardens' lands, that they have the flexibility to send their bannermen to whoever might need the extra help. The Riverlands also have a reputation for disunity (which makes sense given its fractious history), which could get in the way of a speedy assemblage of its vassals in case of an emergency. The only real exposure of the Riverlands to ironborn invasion is the Cape of Eagles - topographical maps indicate the lands north of Riverrun are shielded by mountains, which run into the Hags Mire, which extends all the way to Seagard, which defends the Cape of Eagles. The Westerlands, meanwhile, with their plentiful gold mines and extensive coastline, would have been a much more intriguing historical target for the ironborn, especially as a springboard on their way to the prosperous Reach. As for potential invasion from Essos, their only direct exposure is the mouth of the Trident, which would require the invaders to slip through the Bay of Crabs between the Vale and Crackclaw Point unopposed. In reality, since the Conquest the only threat to the Riverlands has been the other kingdoms, which would require a great lord to break the King's Peace, in which case it's an internal problem and would draw the attention of the King, especially since the Riverlands also adjoin the Crownlands.

I think the reason for the wardens is to add a definitive chain of command if the invasion spills into other kingdoms. If we he invasion comes from the west, the warden of the west has the definite highest command, below the king, even if the war leaks into the north or the vale.

Another factor that could play in: Historically, nobles were not allowed to keep standing armies (household guard yes, but not entire regiments or battalions), thus would actually be a threat to any king of any nation if a count or duke of a rich or populous area can keep their own armies (look into the Holy Roman Empire of Germanic Nations)! The same could go for Westeros; minor lords are not allowed to keep standing armies except their household guard but perhaps the Wardens were to be able to react quickly if necessary because of any threat cause calling in the levies can take a massive amount of time! Of course at the time we witness the realm in book 1, this office/tradition might be already so out of balance through all the rebellions and uprisings over the last 200 years in Westeros, it’s merely an honorary office/title (like the Warden off the Cinque Ports in the kingdom of England) or just a sign of seniority over other Lords! It could also just be a historical reference to England again where the office Lord Warden of the Marches existed in the border region to Scotland, split into the Wardens of the West, Middle and East... Furthermore, the Stormlands and the Riverlands are not far away from the Crownlands and Kings Landing, message is fast there, so the organization of a defense is not so hard and slow to organize then more removed locations like the North and the Vale! The Reach borders Dorne and is a common goal for Iron Islanders and the West borders the Iron Islands, so they should also be flexible in organizing a defense and not being dependable on Kings Landing

The title was given to those who bent the knee. I think it was meant to be purely symbolic announcment by Aegon the Conquerer that those lords trully care about their people. "This lord warded you common folk from my dragons by bending the knee. So they are the Warden of X."

the hierarchy with king, wardens, lords, landad knights and other noblity is like military hierarchy. Its obviosly modeled after middle age nobility. So smaller nobility holds smaller terirories under their direct controll, granted by their liege lords, and are obviously responsible for defending their domains respectivly and at the same time responsible to their liege lord for military service. So in the case of invasion each nobleman defends his territory with his own troops and in case he cant deal with it alone, he calls for military help from his liege lord, who then comands all his smaller nobility to gather their troops to defend the territory which is under attack. (for example Umbers constantly deal with smaller wildling incursions south of the wall, but in case of large scale wildling attack, they call for help from their liege lords- Starks who then gather all their banners. So in case of a large scale invasion, Starks can in the same manner call for help from their liege lord- the king but they cant comand any other lords outside their domain to come and help them, they can only ask the other high lords for help which mostly depends on familly and marriege relations- like Starks and Tullys) So i would say the title warden is somewhat comparrable to dukes or earls in middle age. Orriginally, dukes (just like wardons in the story) was a title granted only to powerful lords, but later it bacame more like honorarry title. So just like in middle age we had great dukes, who were often more powerfull than the king itself, we also had dukes with that same title but with much smaller territory, army, power and wealth. George obviously coppies that with the tittle of wardon since we have Starks, Lanisters, Tyrels and Arryns who carry the title of wardends, and who were previously kings, but we also have house Fowler, house Yronwood, house Manderly and some other smaller houses who also carry the title of warden.

I think it's a mixture of Aegon replacing the old king titles with new titles of his own devising as a way to unify the seven kingdoms and placate old houses, as other commenters have said, and a military necessity. For example, Wyman Manderly is Warden of the White Knife. I imagine that means he can call not only his own banners, but those of the larger houses near him. Imagine the larger houses of the North (Manderly, Umber, etc.) are two-star generals and the Starks are three-star generals. If White Harbour gets attacked and the Manderlys try and order the Hornwoods or Boltons to come help, they could say: "You're a two-star just like us, shove off." By granting the title of Warden to the Manderlys, the Starks are basically promoting them to three-star generals for defensive purposes, removing the possibility of argument. So, applying that to the larger Wardens, that means an invasion of Aztecs (or America-dwelling vikings or whatever) into the Westerlands would give Tywin the right to call not only his own banners, but those of the Reach and Riverlands. He could order them to help him and pull rank on them when they show up, regardless of whether the king arrives or not. In military terms, think of the great houses as three-star generals and the Wardens as four-star generals for their given sector.

I was wondering this for a while myself

My thinking is that the wardens act as theater commanders, so if there are two or more great houses acting in an area without the king or his hand, then the regional warden (north, south, ect…) would then be in command of the whole force.

One idea as to why the Tullys and Baratheons weren't named Wardens, could be because of proximity. If a threat came from beyond the wall, it would take months for the king to even march an army to Winterfell to help. The Vale takes time for a large army to pass through as well, as shown in Fire and Blood. The Stormlands and Riverlands however are the closest to the Crownlands, making it easier and more effective for the king, or the other Lords Paramount to provide aid directly

Wardens are the generals to the Kings commander. For military purposes, every lord with lands are like a division, every division during times of war probably reports to the Battalion commander (Warden/General) who reports to the commander (King). It’s the same way our military is structured today, but because Westeros is a medieval society, they have citizen soldiers and so instead of full time generals they have wardens. I think this one is pretty straight forward

I don't imagine that the wardens can call upon other great houses who are not wardens. In a big enough war, it would be the king calling the shots, so this is only for more regional invasions/incursions. I think the title of warden is to make it clear that these great houses have the authority to call all their local banners (which, yes, should go without saying) and gives them a higher default military rank than others in a larger war. Something that comes to mind is in the 3rd Dunk and Egg book (the name escapes me now. Not The Sworn Sword and not The Hedge Knight, lol). In the little evening gathering in the woods with "Maynard Plumm" and Fireball's kid, they talk about how Bloodraven isn't doing enough for the realm because he hasn't acted against the Ironborn raiders all along the western shore of Westeros (ironically, it seems Bloodraven actually explains himself, unbeknownst to the others). Someone praises both Lord Stark and Lord Lannister for "making common cause" and dealing with the ironborn themselves. Both lords would, under one hypothesis, be able to call on others like House Tully, but the text seems to imply that it is just houses Stark and Lannister who are doing anything about the Ironborn. I would conclude that calling on house Tully or any house beyond their own borders is not a power either posseses. As to who gets command of which fleet, or even who is in charge of a great fleet made up of all the ships from the North and the Westerlands combined seems like it could be worked out between the two lords. Choose the man with the most naval experience. Anyway, it says "made common cause" (IIRC, it's been a few years; it does not say "Lannister called upon Stark" or vice versa. Hence my conclusion. GRRM sure as hell didn't clear up much when asked.

It just makes the former kings feel better. It’s an empty title as you say. It’s just lords doing their jobs.

>local lord (example: House Umber) >collects local tax money >local lord kicks up to House Stark (Warden of the North/Petty King) >Stark collects local tax kicks up local lord(s) *plurl local lords plurl is important to have the money to kick up even MOAR to the King* >sends king tax munnies This warden is a regional petty king/governor. Historically, petty kings could hand down judgements and rulings, they settled disputes between houses of their region, were responsible for keeping roads safe sometimes and upkept the roads themselves for trade and travel when they were far from civilization, as well. They were semi autonomous in that they would occasionally rebel (As rob stark) and raise their own regional armies against other Petty kings or their own liege lord. It’s all extremely set in feudalism and Again, I would encourage you to read into the early Petty Kings of Ireland. I assume Aegon set this system in place as to not cause unrest in the local lords and peasants upon his conquest and to prevent mass rebellion by allowing popular and wealthy known lords to claim some autonomy and regularity among the changing administration.

13:49 Wardens, seems to be from the regions that are farthest from the capital, so king would need more time to reach there, and hence wardens would have the authority to raise and army and fight without waiting for king's approval. While riverlands, stormland etc are fairly close to the capital and hence in case of requirment the king's army can reach there in time. And hence no need for them to have such freedom.

Maybe the Wardens are considered by the King to be the first responders? Like Tywin Lannister is the Warden of the West but when Robert rebelled against the Throne Tywin didn't react right away so he could see who would most likely win. However, being the Warden of the West, or Warden of anywhere is supposed to compel the Wardens to be the very first to take up arms and come to the rescue? Maybe?

The way it sounds to me is that the title of Warden is really more of a military honor/title rather than a feudal type of title, and only relevant during an invasion war (specifically when the realm as a whole is united and fighting together, unlike the war of the five kings or any other civil war). The Wardens would be like your top-ranking generals of the Westeros army right under the King, who is the commander in chief. That's why Robert doesn't want Sweet Robin to have it after Jon Arryn dies for example, because he's still a child and can't function as a commander in the army (even though he is still a very strong liege lord army-wise. It's similar to the civil war of the five kings in the sense that Tywin Lannister for example, is the liege lord and out of his bannerman he has his most powerful and capable lords commanding and planning their attacks/movements with him. It is the same but just one Tier higher, the Wardens being Roberts most powerful and capable lords commanding and planning their attacks with him, but with just a nice sounding title.

I was under the impression it was to hold those lords accountable should they fail in their duty, like if the Warden of the North attempted to defend against a Wildling Incursion and was grossly incompetent but otherwise did not break their obligations to their subjects or their King in doing so, then the King would have the legal precedent to appoint a new Warden to deal with the threat. The four Wardens realms each have major threats that they would be expected to lead the realm in defeating; The North has the Wildlings (and the Others), the Westerlands have the Ironborn who have perpetually been restless, the Reach have/had the Dornish, and Vale have the Mountain Clans. Lords are obligated to defend their lands, but there is not law against being an idiot, but If they have a military title then they are subject to military punishment should they fail. That's my interpretation of things at least.

Because the Stormlands were historically very close to the throne, like Lord Orys Baratheon to House Targaryen, so I think they answer directly to the king. The Tullys were the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands , which I think equates to the "Warden" title. So, in theory, it's an empty military title until war comes.

I think it says some where that the Umbers are a lot more experienced fighting wildlings than the houses farther South , so I think the Umbers are able to call their banners and fight the wildlings without the Starks permission or involvement

My understanding is that the knights, lords and great lords are responsible for protection of their lands, within a regular feudal chain of command. Wardens asses and defend against the threat for the entire realm - one thing is Ironborn are just there to reave, it is a responsibility of the local lords. If someone threatens the established order of things, the wardens decide to act a wardens - summon whomever and whatever they need, informing King's Landing first.

I think the whole point is to solve chain of command issues. Wardens dictate chain of command with regards to foreign incursions. If there is an invasion of the north, then the warden of the north calls the shots with battle commands even though, in tittle outside of invasions, the great lord's are all equal in terms of "on paper" ranks. Tully is equal to Stark is equal to Lanisters, etc. But, if someone needs to call the shots in the king's stead, the warden of the region speaks with the king's voice.

I think it's pretty easy to understand, they are like Mini Kings. The seven kingdoms are just one Kingdom now after Aegon conquest. The title "King of the seven Kingdoms" is just to refer that once they were seven and they were conquered. But the territory is too big and the Kings needs help. So Aegon is virtually dividing the kingdom in the most simple way, East, Ouest, North and South, making those who called Wardens like Mini Kings of a big region. Is an administrative move that puts them above the regular Lord. So territorially they are just one step under the King. It is and it's not exactly because they were kings before that they were chosen, when dividing in four corners the logical option was choosing the stronger Houses, then that's why those four former kings become Wardens. Without that title, they would have been like any other Lord on those territories (in terms of political power, not in terms of wealthiness) as they lost the only rank they had above of the others, so it would be much more harder to organize certain territory as there was not "General in chief" to command.

Perhaps it's simply an affirmation of their power. Meaning that Warden of the North is not synonymous to the Lord of Winterfell. We even see this with the Robyn Arryn case, king Robert did not mean to strip Sweetrobin of his lordship of the Eyrie but only of his wardenship of the East.

Reminds me of the Robert scene when he threatens to give Jaime the title. Its honestly very empty in the current years of the story as Ned and the other wardens don't really have anything to do with kings landing since Ned had no idea what was going on at all so it was just a ceremony title. Much like rules of who gets the throne the warden titles are made up as they go on for whichever person is in charge. I mean we have the war of the 5 kings going on and house Tyrell and baratheon didn't care at all about this title when they were fighting especially with renly. I see it as a nights watch situation as well where the title got muddied and defiled as time went on so it's a shadow of it's former self as I see George writes a story that is basically post tragety in places

@thisguy8106

2 жыл бұрын

He didn't threaten it.. he did give Jamie the title.

@thisguy8106

2 жыл бұрын

He threatened to name Jamie Hand.. he did name him Warden of The East. And Ned was saying that Jamie was going to inherit Casterly Rock and idk why they thought he would...

@ivanbluecool

2 жыл бұрын

@@thisguy8106 Ned thought Jaime was gonna be free of his valves and be let go of like later barriston was and tywin had no heirs that looked like good leaders

I always thought of them as a lesser king. In ireland we had many different types of Kings. Supreme-King, High-King, Over-King. And if I am not mistaken there might have been two more old irish kings. Maybe wardens are a lesser type of King.

Great and insightful as always Mi Lady and Mi Lord! 🙂 And thank you for an awesome livestream when you Yankees celebrated Thanksgiving! 😁 Ps. I'm on team RED when it comes to Mi Ladys hair colour❤

Here's how I see it: the greats lords of westeros including the big cheese, the king are all basically glorified counts. They don't hold any lands or titles outside of their county, see winterfell for the Starks I think it's storms ends for the Baratheons you get it. The concept of duchies and Marquess is not even a thing. Anyway in order for the Aegon to have them fall in line he decides to keep the status quo that was working anyway but basically makes arch dukes titles and calls it a day there's probably a legalistic thing that stipulates that the vassals that pledge their allegiances to the wards have to pay taxes and pledge levies to that same lord. What's the difference with the previous status quo? There wasn't a looming authority enforcing the lords of any particular place to do that... So if lord Manderly is delinquent on his payments to lord Stark the iron throne will get mad, whereas before it was lord Stark himself that had to get mad, in exchange lord stark has to manage all these vassals for the iron throne and be the first line of defense for the realm and in case of foreign invasions they might be expected to deal with it on their own. What about the non wardens? Well the iron throne is kinda a loose suzerain for Dorne so they don't matter but the other ones... I don't remember who of the great lords is a non warden but it would go like this, you mentioned the Tully's so lord Tully has swords houses pledged to him but he's not a warden so the taxes they should pay him go instead to the iron throne maybe even the levies too, as for defense in the case of Dorne I think they're all on their own except for a crazy emergency and the riverlands the local lords would be expected to defend their counties while if it escalates it is the iron throne who has the obligation to intervene and not their higher lord. As for if lord Arryn can rally the Tullys question. No I don't think so, only if they're paying taxes and levies to him. Of course I might be wrong, I get the feeling and ideas while reading the story but I'm speculating a lot. Tl;dr: if your lord is a warden you send your taxes to him if he's not you send them to the throne

I think the 4 Wardens are meant to approximate the creation of great duchies by Edward III. He made his sons dukes which included the dukedoms of Lancaster and York. Just one of the causes of the War of the Roses... a hem, I mean War of Five Kings.

I would think the Riverlands and Stormlands would fall under protection of the King, therefore don't need a regional Warden.

Really late to the conversation but I think this may be what a Warden is: a military defender of a region that was likely to face an invasion from a perceived threat at the time of the creation of these offices. The reason a warden is different from a Lord may be that a Lord is not a military minded person. Were all Starks great warriors? Perhaps at one time the warden was different from the Lord of a region. Perhaps a second son became a Warden because the true heir was less good at the job. If someone like Benjen was first born, perhaps Brandon or Ned would be warden of the North. (IF Roberts rebellion had not happened.) An aging Lord could also see those duties go to his son or younger brother, who is more capable of command in the field. It is a title bestowed by a king, who may not be comfortable with a weak first born son or relic of a past age in charge of a theatre of defense.

I hear you on the ‘understanding’ part of this podcast. However, I feel this was simply a title given with little thought other than prestige & maybe taxes.

I believe the wardens are the highest generals when there is an army of joint kingdoms. When there’s an army with like the Starks and Tullys the starks are higher ranking. Idk about the calling the banners of the other kingdoms. I think it’s also mostly just prestige because those are seats of former kings

I always thought the wardens pay less tax like a March contract in ck3

The storm lands and the river lands are not considered east north south or west?

I think it has to do with military size. I believe each warden could field the four biggest armies, at least at the time? And so the lords that commanded the four biggest military forces of the realm were given the warden title. This also makes sense considering the possibility that a king would have to call upon the might of entire realm to deal with some threat (whether foreign or the Others), it would be practical to have the the leaders of the four biggest armies be the top generals of one great force.

The Lord Paramount of the Trident serves as the warden of the riverlands

If you call lord stark you get the forces of house stark. If you call for your warden of the north your wanting all the forces of the north

Also the title of Warden was given to the houses that were kings and bent the knee like the starks Lannisters Arryns and the Tyrrels were an exception because someone had to take the gardeners place and guard against the dornish, but the Baratheons were related to Aegon so they weren’t royals in Aegons conquest since Orys was a bastard and the Tully’s were just lords that joined Aegon first out of all the river lords so they were made the lord paramount.

👉👉👉We miss you guys & all of your livestreams. 💞 I wish you would come back! 🤗

I think that the tittle of Warden was an honorific way to compensate the Kings that "surrender" or survive and retain their titles. Like the Arryns, the Lannister after the Fields of Fire Battle, the Tyrells that surrender Hightgarden instead of continue the fight. And the the Starks have Torren Satrk the king who kneels. And the Tully, Baratheon and Greijoy are new houses that obtain their rank of Lord Paramount after the Conquest. So maybe was a symbolic way of compensate the pride the old Kings before the new high Lords.

@Yzro224

2 жыл бұрын

Also in wars against external threats or rebellions is the Crown who decides the military structure. In the war of Nine Penny Kings was the Hand of The Kind a Lord Baratheon who obtain the general command of the invasion force. Also to take down the Greyjoy rebellion Stannis was put in charge of the naval operations and after the King decides who takes every island. So I think is not a formal military structure in Westeros. Are honorific titles but in reality the final decision is taken by the King and can be different at any occasion.

From historical examples Wardens and their equivalent were guardians and or field commanders in specific areas, places, regions etc....In the case of Westeros I think Wardens are the Generals of the Armies meaning that a Lord Paramount cannot pull rank. In a military situation a Lord Paramount is under the command of a Warden in theory.

@aegonii8471

2 жыл бұрын

In the Greyjoy rebellion where 2 wardens were present who had more authority Tywin or Eddard?

I think the reason the Riverlands and Stormlands are not wardens is because they are close to Crownlands which would eliminate the issue the North and Reach would have where they are too far away to get the king's help but possess enough local forces to make up for that, if the Riverlands or Stormlands were invaded they would call apon the king who would raise his armies and March with the river Lords or the storm Lords to defeat them but if he did the same with anyone else he wouldn't get there in time, the Riverlands are also surrounded by wardens which means that if someone attacked them the wardens would all get together along with the king to crush them.

Also, didn't the Targaryens take land away from the Riverlands and Stormlands to make the Crownlands? Might be a way to avoid future repercussions from that decision?

Wasn't lord Rosby in the first dornish war named castellan of sunspear and warden of the sands In WOIAF

I think a big responsibility of the Wardens is to enable t the Kings Justice. They are the Lords that can punish the other lords. Collect taxes as well.

I want a 500 page telekinetic battle between sweetrobin and bran in the last book

Few things here: firstly, most feudal titles are superfluous. Why does the King, who is the ultimate ruler, need the titles of Protector of the Realm (Duh), King of the Rhoynar, Andals, and First men (duh again). Titles are a show of excess and power. But the wardens military purpose makes sense. Yes the lords of a particular real would support their great lord, but the title can be bestowed on someone else if the great lord is captured, killed without a grown heir, or if he rebels against the crown the king can give the warden title to another commander so the loyalists know who to report to. It would be confusing for a while lol, but they would figure it out eventually.

I assumed it was a cultural thing like the gods worshipped in different parts of the kingdoms. Maybe the Riverlands and the Storm Lands kept the title of Lord Paramount for the regional highest lord in the land and the others adopted the title Warden. Blackwoods still worship the old gods and not far to the north, the social norm changes to the oddballs being worshippers of the seven. The northern houses don't make knights and the dornish favor order of birth over first son for inheriting titles.

Wardens take command of any army sent to defend the lands of Westeros, so if the invasion comes from north the starks as warden of the north would lead the defending army. Lannisters if the west was invaded would be commanding all the defensive forces sent in the campaign and so on. It’s also a wait of place responsible on a lord to make them more loyal. Also a way to pass blame on to the warden.

Arent the Tully family referred to as something? Like they are lord ___ of the trident? I've heard it I'm just drawing a blank on the title