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Fascinating shop talk by 2 guitar geniuses for the edification of common mortals. Thank you!

I've bought Tom's fretboard visualization course. It's a fantastic product. It's an amazing way to move freely on the entire fretboard without using memorized patterns, and very useful to improvise over changing chords. Highly worth to check it out.

@nichaju1

6 жыл бұрын

Zack Z you can use this concept on a normal tuning. The course charts are both in conventional and perfect fourth tuning. But it’s true that it applies much better on the last, because the fretboard becomes symmetrical. It cuts the number of shapes to learn by three. My opinion is that you should try as much concepts you can to visualize the fretboard: caged, 3nps, Tom’s way, scales on a single string... and finally pick the one(s) that suits you the best. Personally, since I tune in 4ths, I use a lot 3nps, single strings and try to get better at Tom’s. Hope it helped.

@Dreamdancer11

6 жыл бұрын

You are so right my friend....the more the concepts, the more the angles that you use to look at the fretboard and thats only a good thing...i also superimpose arpeggio patterns and chord types to shapes(either caged or 3nps) to help me know where iam....but i never knew about Toms book....i guess i have to check it out now...thx mate.

love these advanced discussions. Two great players.

I tried 4th's tuning because of Tom Quayle a little over a year ago, because it made so much more sense. Been playing in 4th's ever since, and my playing is constantly improving. I love it. I also visualise the fretboard very much like Tom does. Great ideas, great player!

@nichaju1

6 жыл бұрын

sigurd2498 the same for me. I couldn't go back to a normal tuning. Perfect 4th make so much sense.

@caglaroral

6 жыл бұрын

I tried that tuning and I think 4th's is really efficient way to visualize the fretboard. But when it comes to chords its a hell different world. How did you deal with that?

@pterantula

6 жыл бұрын

My thought too - a lot of the chord forms I'm comfortable with get super wonky... and I refuse to learn anything new!!

@nichaju1

6 жыл бұрын

True enough. You have to spend a lot of time to relearn the chords and say goodbye to your campfire ones! Tom's way to build four voice chords using the triads shapes and adding a bass note can be a good starting point because you should already know those shapes. For example, adding an A over a D#m triad gives you a nice voicing for an Amaj7 chord. And the symmetry of the turning makes inversions easy to figure out.

@seanmiller7889

Жыл бұрын

5:07 Tom even says 'Don't tune this way' lol

That was such a great discussion, really enjoyed it!

Just a huge thank you for this video and your chat. Definitely confort me to have an interval based fretboard visualisation and working in this direction

Thanks Guitcon for introducing Martin Miller to me! What a great player. Super interesting conversation between Tom and Martin.

I love watching videos like these, it shows you that nothing is right or wrong, its what works for you!

So much great content in the first few minutes. This was really an "a-ha" moment for me when you talked about focusing on intervals based on the root of what you're playing over, or the root of the scale, as opposed to worrying about the interval between consecutive notes, this idea of the "function" of the interval. Man. It's like none of this was ever beyond my ability to understand, but it just hadn't been communicated to me like it has here. Thank you so much for this!

@JeffNucci

4 жыл бұрын

This is why (German) functional harmony can be so much easier to understand than diatonic (Roman) even though it's technically a more complex interpretation of harmony.

I think you both are very kind person in expose the personal mindset of such a great subject. Thank you!

This is a treat. As someone who's played for a long time, but is only now really learning music, it's fun to watch these two amazing players talk. It's funny to, I feel like they're speaking a language I half understand, so I get glimpses of what they're talking about and then all of a sudden, I'm lost hahaha. I have so much to learn still, but that's what's keeping it interesting too me.

Such an interesting vid, watching these to talking candidly about their fretboard approach was as important as any tutorial vid I've seen, I hope there will be more with other players, Rick Graham, Guthrie Govan etc.. Great to watch 👍

Danke Martin. Dieses Video ist an Goldwert nicht zu überbieten. Ich habe mir über eure Fragen schon sonoft gedanken gemacht und nichts gefunden. TOP! Grüsse aus Gohlis

@MartinMillerGuitar

6 жыл бұрын

+K Roadster Danke und Grüße aus Plagwitz ;)

This is an absolutely awesome chat!!

Watching 2 masters discuss like this is such an amazing way to learn.

I started with a 4ths tuning myself having been influenced by Stanley Jordan's theory. It's because of that that a CAGED system couldn't work for me because it wasn't portable in tunings that were not standard. But in that 4ths tuning, I also learned to visualize positions by intervals and the intervals' diatonic relationships and I understood easily how a minor third and a major 6th were different intervals and at the same time just inversions of the same diatonic relationship. One interesting outcome that a 4ths tuning orientation produced was that due to the nature of the 4ths tuning that made sounding the root or 3rd or 5th again but in higher/lower octaves difficult if not impossible, I was forced to use a more careful approach to voicing chord tones. I took this approach with me going back to standard tuning and I don't sound any chord tone that I'm already sounding in any higher or lower octave.

Context! Probably the most important thing when trying to describe anything. I think being able to connect the music you hear in your head or your ears to your fingers and your instruments whatever tuning you have is the goal. The simpler you can make it the better!

Some great meta observations and insights guys. Thank you! Best regards, Daniel, Denver, CO

2 greats conversing is so healthy and informative, thanks

Looking forward to your second part of the mastercalss :)

Wonderful. Most nerdy guitar video I ever watched. Understood only some fragments, but somehow entertaining.

Dig this conversation. I think half-half. I think of intervals in smaller chunks too, like Tom. But I visualize chords and inversions using CAGED like Martin. Good talk!

Great video, it got me thinking about stuff in a different way.

So much knowledge in this video. I love it. If you have a chance could you do discussion with oz noy about this topic too?

Very interesting and instructional conversation. I wish we could have it in a better sounding environment!

Martin you are an amazing player!!!!!!

my fav guitar artist,

Martin, congrats on making the video, it's fascinating to watch as you both interchange ideas and delve into your approaches. My question is: how would you apply the CAGED system in a non-functional harmony context? Do you attach it to the root note of a chord in a certain mode? Also, how do you adjust (if at all) the CAGED approach to different tuning (say, as different as Tom's, or more)? Thanks & love the new album of yours!

One of the best guitar videos ever. Nerd alert.

Very enlightening.

Really interesting video, thanks gents!

Great video!

Martin, when you talk about the solfeggio system, you seem be referring to the movable Do system. In some European countries, we use fixed Do, where each note has it' own fixed name. a Do is always a Do, whether we're in C major or D major. So in that system intervals are conserved when you change tonalities.

Super cool video ! :D

Golden information! I share a lot of similarity with Tom's way of visualization (or encoding of notes). Now that you guys mentioned "function" of notes instead of intervals, how do you guys work with playing on top of non functional harmonies/chords?

Two of (arguably) the best guitarists on the planet right now. Honoured to receive their wisdom. Nice to know visualisation plays a role for them.

@marshalcraft

6 жыл бұрын

I wonder if they'd be doing what they are if it weren't for PAUL GILBERT, Guthre, Steve Vai, and others. They are good though.

@marshalcraft

6 жыл бұрын

Would their ibanez's even exist?

Mind blown 🎸🎸

On a single string I actually visualise the white keys of a piano sometimes i.e. the 3 blacks and 2 blacks gaps. It might sound odd but that was a big step forward for me.

This is really great. I think my system is similar, in some ways to Martin Miller. Though I don't use any notion of modes. Now I get into arguments, about this because basically I see modes as pointless today, as they are ancient things that would eventually just become modern music thoery, a la the Major Scale, and all it's diatonic, and non diatonic intervals. Now thats not to say I can't play modes, sure I can easily. But I visualize the Major scale shape with the primary position we all learn, root/index finiger on low e, all the way up to pinky playing the 4th on high e. Then the subsiquent positions, like Martin Miller said, except the edge of one and another, is another position. So for any key there are 7 - 3 mote per string positions the 8th is repeating the 1st.

Wow! Nuff thx for your sharing experience, knowlegde and ideas. Well done. Though it was "hard" keepn follow up your conversation, coz it was little weird bit of "agressive". Hmm, but its ok, I guess bcoz of, as Martin said he was'nt feeling that well. Still nuff thanx to the fullest Kings. Keep uP your positive everytym. One blessed Love. Jah Guide nd protect you allweys. Health nd strength. Grtx. AnkuTom.

Man @17:10 that's me right now. I am actually going back to the basics with like pentatonic blues and trying to understand what I am playing starting with the 'easier' stuff. This is extremely frustrating and depressing, given that my technique is not way ahead of my theory/understanding. I naturally fell into the way that Martin is describing things and soon realized this was based on the CAGED system. My major problem is memorization of the fret board. Despite what most people that have it memorized say, I think one of the easier ways to memorize is by studying a poster of the natural notes. I say this because the other days at a music store, I saw one of these and for the first time, I was able to visually recognize patterns that I had never mentally associated before. I am going to order one of those big stupid posters today. Both Martin and Tom play so fluidly, its crazy to hear that they don't visualize the neck the same. It guess, just pick a method and dedicate yourself to it, is the main take away. I will probably buy both of these guys videos and see which one clicks better with me.

very good !!

Martin, get some mic setup for these sessions please. Great discussion!

Thanks for clearing up the difference between isolated intervals and Root Relitivity, I wish it had been taught 25 years ago, lol..

@MartinMillerGuitar

6 жыл бұрын

Root relativity is a great term, I might start using it, thanks in return! KZread can be a lovely place :)

This is great combination!

Thank you guys! this is not a VS, is a complementation with and different approach....is awesome Thanks to #EytschPi42

@Martin Miller, you have the same system for shapes from the major scale as Tyler Larson.

very very very interesting

The bottom line for Tom’s system seems to be to visualise the fretboard around the nearest root note to where you are, going from 1-7 both above and below it. Intervals between notes only define the scale pattern you are using. Note names like C or Ab seem to be superfluous other than to say what key you are in. Is that about right?

Ok, I agree pretty much everything that you've said in this video, CAGED system is very useful and I use it almost everytime, but I think it's worthless when it comes to Scoenberg or dodecafonic music . How do you gonna read that based in CAGED system?

I know this was a quick, impromptu video, but it did leave me hanging on one major thing. Is everything an interval to the root note, only? You mentioned the intervals between non-root notes, but neither of you mentioned memorizing those 'functions.' Is that because everything is diatonically relative intervals, ie. from 5th to 7th is, in your head, a maj 3rd, so you imagine a root-major-3rd function? You almost immediately dismissed note/fretboard memorization. Is that not key and a pre-requisite?

awesome

What is the use of considering descending intervals? In other words, thinking of a min 3 as a Maj 6... why would that be useful to anyone? Maybe I'm dense. Ascending the interval and function are the same. Descending, it's the function that matters as far as I can see. But maybe I'm missing something.

could someone clarify the difference between interval and function theyre talking about? more so how function differentiates to interval?

I mean I probably understood about 2% of this whole video but I sure enjoyed watching this

Hey Martin!

Just some feedback for Ibanez: please just use a standard socket for the guitar lead on the edge of the body (like the Ibanez RG), rather than this socket that makes the lead face upwards. I've had the Guthrie Govan Charvel guitar for a few years, which uses this upward-facing socket, and it creates more problems than in solves. You can't just stand the guitar upright on a surface because the guitar lead gets crushed under the guitar. You must ALWAYS have a guitar stand around. This might sound like a small thing, but it has been a real inconvenience with the Guthrie Charvel, which I curse constantly.

his don't use this tuning is...his opinion....I would not be playing at all if not for p4......the guitar is a struggle and P4 does simplify the process of learning the neck and that is what every progressive guitarist is trying to do......if your a jazz guy or a shredder or anybody that does more then strums....you will quickly see the advantage.........facebook has P4 group if anybody is interested, then join us.....lots of resources and guys to answer your questions and help you along......

When does that new Ibanez hit the stores?????

Interestingly they are both masters in their own right. What I would find just as interesting as their study materials? How do these guys structure their individual time management in order to achieve such high performance? Both are technically great/versatile yet each can also teach theory at a university level both at young ages. I’d buy a course describing those habits too👍 Do they neglect the hell out of their girlfriends or do they have special deliberate practice techniques?

Top🎸🎸🎸🎸

Now I see how Tom is able to play the way that he does, it makes so much more sense. Watching him play, after awhile I was confused how the hell he was able to get the guitar to sound the way it does by the way that he plays, now that I know he's tuned to 4ths like Violin, I see. Must be great for lead playing once you get used to it. But I see that there's a big downside aswell. Interesting.

Actually I use mostly the same system as Tom. I'm nowhere near as fluent, but the basic way of thinking is the same.

For the love of God, please tell us more about that Ibanez

@TheRabidRabbi29

6 жыл бұрын

racerx3065 It's a prototype model, they've been handing them out to a lot of their endorsers, from Marco Sfogli, to the guys from Polyphia, all the way down to more underground players like Martin or Lee Wrathe. I think it's really cool of Ibanez to put so much trust in their endorsers, plus it's built up a lot of buzz around the model itself.

@racerx3065

6 жыл бұрын

alex29bass yeah been looking for more info for ages! Marco doesn't have one though, he has his own signature model

@jwalkrr

6 жыл бұрын

the guys from chon have one too, check it out on their premier guitar rig rundown from earlier this month

@racerx3065

6 жыл бұрын

I saw that! They said next to no details about it though, apart from the seymour duncan pickups

@emidiojorge

6 жыл бұрын

Ibanez just announced.It's going to be released at NAMM 2018.

Martin Miller where would I find your visualization method on your website as mentioned in this video? What would it be called?

@MartinMillerGuitar

6 жыл бұрын

+darrelbigdaddywhite Just follow the links to the Improvisation Masterclass Vol. 1. Cheers!

Is there any reason that in classical guitar tuning there is "asymetry" between stringsB and G -we tune simply every 5th fret of the lower string to the sound of the higer string or vice versa. The only exception is the interval between the mentioned strings (B&G) - why, for what? It makes for novices more difficult to memorize some modes, licks etc. Who knows why?

@tomaszwota1465

6 жыл бұрын

Andy Reasoner probably a compromise necessitated by our biomechanics, and wanting to play melodic lines as well as rythm/full(er) chords on a single tuning. For example consider how barred shapes change when you make the fretboard symmetrical by tuning in all fourths.

the best guitarists in the world tom quayle- martin miller-alex hutchings.... martin is my favorite!!!!!

btw martin, what ibanez type is ?

I think 4ths tuning it's a curse, I will never try by fear never to find my way back.

@louiseattzs

6 жыл бұрын

Daniel Rezende totally agree!!

@TheTrooper424

3 жыл бұрын

What tuning do you use then?

Maybe it sounds silly, but any place where I can learn in detail what is a major third, whats the 7th, whats a triad - the theory, any suggestions? Thanks.

@DiogenesNephew

5 жыл бұрын

Either google "guitar theory" or look it up on youtube. Musicians Institute has good books on it.

@Ramdas_Devadiga

5 жыл бұрын

@@DiogenesNephew thanks A J. I am looking for some more specific, reputed sources. I'll check Musicians institute that you refer to.

I know Smoke in the Water in one position

Guys, play Mary had a little Lamb by ear. Notice how 'Liii-TTILE LAMB' the yell syllables land on a MINOR THIRD but sounds 'happy as fuck' because in the ear, your brain is probably always referencing back to the home note which is a perfect fifth. So, a minor third in this nursery rhyme is happy!

I'll watch this later I'm not gonna get into politics today. Lol jk you guys are both monster players and a great inspiration

Btw, what Ibanez is that? does anyone know?, it's not on Ibanez USA. Thanks!

@bigbadbassplaya

6 жыл бұрын

It is a prototype. He talks about it here. kzread.info/dash/bejne/op-Cuqhrfc60ZaQ.htmlm

btw martin, its your ibanez signature guitar or ?

@frankie.d1127

6 жыл бұрын

mil project New AZ series coming out!! Can’t wait. Co-developed with Ibanez apparently.

Why is it that going an interval up ia not the same shape as going down? Example. Going from C 3rd fret A string up to G 5 fret D string is a perfect 5th. If I descend from that G back to C I have a Perfect 4th with the same shape. To have I descending perfect 5 I have to stay in the same fret and go one string down to 5th fret A string landing on D. Why is that so?

@MartinMillerGuitar

6 жыл бұрын

You have it a bit confused there, buddy. It's the difference between function and interval. The distance between a C4 and a G4 is always a fifth, going up and down. That is describing the interval. If you're in the key of C, the function of any C note will be that of the root, any G note will the THE fifth of the key functionally. Going from C4 to G4 is a fifth. However, going from C4 to G3 that distance becomes a fourth (both descending and ascending). That's because the fifth and it's complimentary interval fourth divide an octave non-symmetrically.

@roba1899

6 жыл бұрын

I rewatched over and over and missed this point. So if a C4 E4 G4 contains a major 3rd, a minor 3rd and a fifth interval .. and we change to inversion G3 C4 E4 which is a 4th, major 3rd and major 6th, why do we still perceive this as still being a C chord? The function is preserved but the intervals are not! From a mechanical standpoint, the inversion should sound like a whole different chord.

@MartinMillerGuitar

6 жыл бұрын

Great question. That is because in the listeners mind the C will still be perceived as the root note when you play the root position before. It's the same effect that I address when I talk about a minor/major third not necessarily being happy/sad depending on the context. You perceive it only as a C chord because you played a C major triad before. Try this: play a C major root position triad, then play the 2nd inversion, then add an A an octave lower to the 2nd inversion (preferably with a piano). Doesn't sound so major anymore, huh? :)

@roba1899

6 жыл бұрын

Absolutely amazing! I felt like I was standing tall, chest protruding and everything .. then the introduction of the A immediately gave the 2nd C inversion a feeling of pensive longing or foreboding! Hmm .. Context. That's why The Edge's unassuming guitar parts come to life the moment Bono starts singing. It's this interplay that creates everything! Thanks Martin .. Guitar and the German language are the coolest pursuits. Erstaunlich wie interessant Muzik Theorie sein koenne.

How old is Martin?

U should get Jennifer batten on

All I can say , is : My first guitar was a Framus .

Lets make a vlog! but first let me add some reverb to it.

very important video. just wish the crew would be quiet

You guys are talking so fast in the beginning it's like you're both on speed. Or you know, someone's rushing you to leave the stage already ;P

@MartinMillerGuitar

6 жыл бұрын

Indeed, we only had 20 to do the video.

@NowakP

6 жыл бұрын

That's unfortunate since there's obviously at least an hour (or more) of content there, but good effort on you guys! Also, Tom sounds surprisingly great on that acoustic! =o edit: visualising chords on the edges of each 3nps in a 6 string scale sounds like total insanity btw ;D

@MartinMillerGuitar

6 жыл бұрын

I don't visualize chords (or anything) in a 3nps way. What I was trying to say is that through my CAGED understanding I don't need to practice 3nps much as I can combine 2 CAGED shapes on the fly to achieve that. I don't know of a single great improviser who uses the 3nps system.

@NowakP

6 жыл бұрын

Oh yeah, I get it. You were trying to make a point and if you have a tool like that to visualize anything you want, you might as well apply it to the conceptually-simplest-thing-possible (that would actually make it a lot harder in this case). It's more of an intellectual exercise rather than something practical at that point, but it's good to have the 'awareness' of how it works in all situations. Don't hate on the 3nps thing, the 80's of metal were great! :) Not much for improv or note choice though, nope.

@MartinMillerGuitar

6 жыл бұрын

You have to make a distinction between what you're playing and what you're thinking about. I play a ton of 3nps or stretchy pentatonic stuff, but I visualize in CAGED regardless.

Love you guys but depresses me that I've been stuck in rut for 12 years of playing

I think you should sit down and polish this. This is obviously a live discussion. I think a product would be nice, ultimately. This is very confusing as it is.

I STILL can't think past playing in shapes instead of thinking in notes ..

@jakeelliott781

5 жыл бұрын

Rob A Start working on basic ear training and hearing intervals on the guitar. This will allow you to know what each note sounds like before you play it, making for more genuine and musical playing. Rather than relying on licks and shapes, it will help you connect more musical lines just with your ear.

Appreciate both of you very much and would have been very interested in the topic. But for the video, please think production value. Sounds horrible and in parts acoustically incomprehensible.

Miller's explanation is so confusing to me, however, being self taught I've always had to figure it out for myself. I'm afraid after 23 years of daily playing and writing, being self taught I'm really poor at describing my musical ideas with anyone that understands theory.

5 жыл бұрын

That's what theory is for: a tool for organizing musical ideas and comunicating them with clarity. If you don't know it, Martin definitely won't make sense to you. Not to sound snotty, but in reality his talk here is quite basic diatonic harmony stuff.

guthrie vs greg howe

Well, that’s 2 Ibanez guitars I like, this one and the Timmons.

I quit.

@mattf9076

6 жыл бұрын

LOL, I see this on so many Tom Quayle vids. LOL I am dying here......

Let Tom explain and quit talking over him.... geezuz

I get the thing about "tricking" the students into feeling a minor 3d might be happy. But it's all a question of context. I feel you prove as much as disprove the idea of emotions linked to intervals.

@MartinMillerGuitar

6 жыл бұрын

We both concluded that an interval as a different emotional conotation depending on it's context, so we're all on the same page.

How the hell does anyone remember that, then add in all the intervals for the different modes, plus doing it in different keys omg.

@westbrionage

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks for recommending that book, i've been thinking of getting a book for a while but didn't know what I should get, ill check it out, thanks again.

@MaximeTanti

6 жыл бұрын

The secret is Ear Training. You need to practice hearing intervals, chords, and identifying scale degrees. Let's say you're jamming over a track. With ear training, you can learn to hear what note you are playing relative to each chord as it occurs (e.g. the root note, the flat 3rd, the 7th etc). This allows you to instantly hear how far you are above or below the other notes. In other words it gives you immediate spacial feedback of where the note you are playing is. This reinforces the fretboard shapes and makes them INFINITELY easier to learn. Developing your ear takes time and effort. But it is the most efficient use of your time and it will make your musicianship seem like magic to others who have not trained their ears. And every little bit you learn will apply to all the other songs you play. For example, if you learn what a minor third interval sounds like, you will find a minor third in pretty much every single song in western music for the last hundreds of years. There are a lot of free online resources like musictheory.net and teoria.com Best of luck!

There is no versus at this level. Although Tom wins xD

I’ve been playing guitar for 30 years and I don’t know what the hell they are talking about!

@bcummings2187

4 жыл бұрын

@timbowers.....neither did Hendrix or SRV ....keep on rockin buddy Haha 👍

Fascinating. I am so far beyond this it's not funny anymore ;) But great to have at least one video from guitcon without distorted guitars (and even an acoustic, yay!)

@janminor1172

6 жыл бұрын

Wait, if those two were both at guitcon, why weren't they on the jam stage more? Didn't see Martin at all and Tom maybe for one song. Or did I miss them because I fast forwarded over all the rock noodeling?

Basically he is teaching the caged system and Tom's tuning doesnt work like that lol. Its funny Tom didn't know what he meant by the G and A system but it makes sense cuz i guess he doesnt do caged at all.

4ths tuning will fuck up your brain lol, you have Standard tuning baked and tattooed in your mind

Why call it a function?

@MartinMillerGuitar

4 жыл бұрын

Because „interval“ is too misleading in this scenario. In the key of C I don‘t care that going from E to G is a minor third, I care about the function of the notes being a major third and perfect fifth to the underlying harmony.

@dry509

4 жыл бұрын

@@MartinMillerGuitar Thanks, but not sure I am seeing the difference.. maybe it is the terminology ...please define underlying harmony. It seems like we are still talking about the concept of intervals whether it is between two notes or between what you are calling the underlying harmony.

@MartinMillerGuitar

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, function means specifically the relationship of any melodic note to the current harmony. If you were to play the maj 7th an octave below the chords root and inexperienced player could think that‘s s half step interval, but what‘s more important is that that note serves as a maj 7th from a functional perspective.

@dry509

4 жыл бұрын

Martin Miller Ok..I think I see what you are saying. Thanks.