Ok guys, what do you think? Is a version of this idea worth pursuing??

@Joker-em6oz

3 жыл бұрын

Maybe, I’m not sure if it would work though. Copper and steel don’t like being together when copper melts. How “cu-Mai” works is a sort of fusion I believe and in my experience copper doesn’t like to be forged with the steel. They have a tendency to break apart and make nasty cracks

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the input!

@marctrossbach6560

3 жыл бұрын

Steel tube with solid copper inside of it? Steel as a sleeve perhaps? But, wouldn't that require welding the tubes inside of your square billet closed?

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

@@marctrossbach6560 that should work!

@erikcourtney1834

3 жыл бұрын

marc trossbach that would work if the tubes where welded inside the can. Maybe if one end is welded and the other has a perfect tight fit up, then that might work. But when starting to forge weld It would separate the unwelded end letting the copper spew out. Perhaps small sealed canisters of copper inside a steel powder canister.

This didn’t work because you can’t do a steel forge weld with copper in it. Copper melts at 1984 degrees but you need higher temps to forge weld steel. You need to use layers and then essentially you’re just brazing the copper to it around 1600 degrees. I have a video on it as well.

@calculatedsurvival

Жыл бұрын

Tyrell up in here with the solutions!! Love your content too brother!!

@BBroom-xc6gs

Жыл бұрын

Love your channel, lots of great ideas and tips as well as your Beautiful blades, some of the best looking work anywhere.

@TyrellKnifeworks

Жыл бұрын

@@BBroom-xc6gs thank you for watching! ❤️

@TyrellKnifeworks

Жыл бұрын

@@calculatedsurvival thank you! ❤️

@jacksin3323

Жыл бұрын

I was about to say the same thing... these are 2 seperate processes. Forge welding and fusing are 2 different operations.

CORTEN otherwise known as weathering steel is a steel alloyed with Cu. It develops a protective oxide layer similar to Al that prevents further corrosion. It's a structural steel used in bridge beams and power poles.

@shaunmarais7698

2 жыл бұрын

Shipping containers are also made with Corten.

@robertsimmons1264

2 жыл бұрын

Invented by USSteel. We used to make it at the research center.

@natadane9610

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you

@daltiejul

2 жыл бұрын

I was gonna say aren't the 2 purposely combined to create a building material? I believe it's because the copper handles weathering/oxidation and lends that to steel? I may be wrong? I would guess it adds some flexibility as well

I always heard, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained." Thank you for letting us observe your "venture."

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching!

@trappenweisseguy27

3 жыл бұрын

There is a Japanese knife maker who has done a Damascus layered knife with discernible layers of copper in it. Don’t remember his name. They’re kitchen blades, typically gyuto’s , that are expensive @ $ 500-700 but not stupid expensive.

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

@@trappenweisseguy27 cool!

@trappenweisseguy27

3 жыл бұрын

I came across his knives on a site I don’t usually frequent but if I come across him again I’ll try to let you know. A different guy, a “Mr Itou” makes wonderful Damascus knives you’d love. Should be able to google his name.

@trappenweisseguy27

3 жыл бұрын

Found it !,. Google “ Saji rainbow Damascus”.

Not ONLY do I enjoy your high skill at forging metal, but I've come to appreciate that you risk mishaps/failures , at least at what you were intending, and share this with us. Makes you more real.

As someone who learns a lot from your videos, I appreciate you posting this one. We learned what not to do, which may even be more valuable than a success story. Thank you, sir.

@FireCreekForge

2 жыл бұрын

I appreciate it, thanks for watching

Oomph ... So many people commenting without knowledge of metallurgy. First off the concept of forge welding is actually a diffusion process where by heat and pressure along with time are used to diffuse a material into another. If you were to take two perfectly smooth and clean surfaces of metal and just stack them together, over time they will form a cold weld; this was commonly seen in things like gauge blocks in the machining industry. Secondly and this is where many people will be lost, iron goes through three crystallographic transitions during the heating process from BCC, to FCC, then back to BCC before melting. The amount of carbon in the steel influences the transition temperatures for plain carbon steels (1000 series). Copper has an FCC crystal structure at all temperatures. The diffusion bond between copper and iron would be fairly week unless there is an intermediate metal that both metals can diffuse with ... in this case nickle. It would be time consuming and not practical to do a mosaic blade as it would greatly weaken the blade. Lamination and diffusion joining is the only option to make this viable... though practicality it may not produce a desired blade with strength. The heat treatment influences alone would bother me.

@uninspiredrambler

2 жыл бұрын

Honestly damascus has only one advantage and that's astetics. I plan to use copper laminate for guards & show pieces.

I loved this experiment! "Ya that's about right"😂🤣 was my favorite part! On my approach I was working under the premise that The copper would flow into pre shaped or pre formed steel and braze the layers together. I found that the method I was playing with, that if I forged an area to much effectively forcing all of the copper out, that the steel didn't forge weld perfectly. This was a really neat concept! Erick over at rivers experience is doing something similar, I am real interested to see how his turns out. All in all man You can't consider this a failure! You learned something and also taught us along the way with your inspiring artistic approach to things! A+

@Aleeknives

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the shout out on my channel man! I appreciate that here on KZread! I'm currently working on a new tutorial on building knives with simple hand tools! It's really tough looking at my high and grinders over here and knowing that I'm just using a file🤣😂

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks man! I appreciate the input, keep up the good work

@johnmaier1215

3 жыл бұрын

Both of you doing cool stuff.... When I finally get all my stuff gathered up I hope to be right there with you guys. Aleeknives, I have an idea after watching this, but I don't have the equipment to do it. Maybe we talk on FB.

If you take two pieces of thick stock of steel, drill (exactly mirrored) shallow holes in these and fill them with copper (copper dust or exactly fitting round stock). and then weld these two pieces of stock together maintaining the copper inside because it can't go anywhere, even if it melts. You might be able to make some fun patterns that way. I'm not an expert but I could see this working

@gilsalomon3439

2 жыл бұрын

Nice idea!

@drdysl3xia596

Жыл бұрын

I would love to see that done. Kind of doesn't make since how the two metals can bond together but lack of knowledge aka ignorance is at fault. :)

Seeing you try to open that can with gloves on brings back one of my old sayings when a boss asked why I ain’t wearing gloves.... the only thing you can do successfully with gloves is weld and piss your pants.

@nateand3

3 жыл бұрын

Lol yeah cuz u ain't gettin that zipper down

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Haha yeah

@jonb4499

3 жыл бұрын

😂 I like that. That’s good

@POTGIETERDAVID

3 жыл бұрын

🤣 ah man this is CLASSIC!!

It's steel and copper.... it's "Stopper". Congratulations Stark, you made a new element. :-)

2:00 - We were so poor growing up that we didn't have Famous Amos cookies. We had the cheap brand, Heinous Anus.

@quillianvalk

2 жыл бұрын

Did they taste like @$$?

@Breakfast_and_Bullets

2 жыл бұрын

@@quillianvalk indeed they did!

the copper is normally laminated to pure nickel and then to a nickel-steel alloy and then edge steel... its kind of the only way to do it... but i would love to see double sided mosaic of nickel powder and copper tubing with a 1095 middle layer... but would propperly need 2 canisters to be great

I like the whole "let's try this" Because if people never tried crap we'd never have what we have now lol good job brother 👏

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Totally!

Fear of failure will never produce wisdom or success. Your “failure” just earned my subscription! Fail on and upward!

@FireCreekForge

Жыл бұрын

Thanks I appreciate it!

Wasnt a failure, more of a good learning experience... Thanks for sharing.

It is awesome that you post videos of experiments and messing around, especially the failures. That's how we learn.

Of all your expensive equipment and time-consuming processes I think the jar of powdered 1095 is the one that gets me every single time

The copper metal mix is called an amalgamation

I work with metal powders in 3d printing. I have a fantasy where we 3d print with different metals to create a billet with an elaborate but carefully controlled Damascus pattern. I had tabled the project for the last few years, but you just re-inspired me. Thanks! I hope you don't give up on metal powder. Lots of options to explore.

I’m not convinced that it will work with powder steel. Have to get hot enough to fuse the powder together, but then your way above the melting point of copper. The cu mai blades are done slightly below it’s melting point. Forge weld the steels together, then inlay your copper, arc weld seams closed, then forge together..

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Could be right, steel should be able to weld below copper melting point with the right pressure.

@erikcourtney1834

3 жыл бұрын

That’s true. Welding can be done In ambient temps with high enough pressure.

There are spray paints with TD in them also. Saves some time and seems to work well

I think, the problem was , that the copper could flow into the steelpowder. A possible solution could be to take a solid rounded steel, put the coppertube over it and a steeltube over that again. And only now you fill up the space inbetween the round sticks up with steelpowder. The copper should be cought between the solid round part and the steeltube. I hope my english was making somehow any sense.

Adding copper to steel as an alloying component is possible and is usually done between 0.2-0.75wt%Cu. It typically is done to improve corrosion resistance, and contributes to solid solution strengthening. If you did get the copper into solution you probably added much more than 1wt% which is probably going to give you some issues with embrittlement.

Tyrell knife works did an amazing copper Damascus kabar, 3 of them actually, and they turned out absolutely beautiful! Love that type of pattern and how steel and copper look when combined and formed into intricate patterns.

Magic happens in the forge.... Thanks for sharing this is cool....

I made steel at Kaiser Steel Corporation with copper alloyed in it to make the steel somewhat corrosion proof. This was required for the structural supports of The Alaskan Pipeline.

@FireCreekForge

Жыл бұрын

Interesting!

It looks like the copper diffused into the steel, which would be an alloy. But with powdered steel there's also a sintering process going on below the melting point of copper. Would be interesting to explore what exactly happens between the melting point of copper and welding temp.

It's not a failure if you learned from it. Thanks for sharing!

Good that you still put this up for us to see. One thing I was thinking is that if that is copper for plumbing that it is an alloy mix, not just copper.

What do I think? I think failure is a valid result and this was so fricking curious! Loved watching it!

Great experimental video, thank you. I did laugh out loud when you dropped the billet into the acid... "Figures"... lol

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Haha yeah

You never know how something will turn out unless you try. It was an interesting experiment to watch, good on you for having a go at it. Regards from Down Under.

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching!

There was an older gent on forged in fire that, after welding the bottom on the canister, stuck it in the forge to develop a layer of forge scale to prevent the billet from sticking to the canister. Worked pretty good on TV so there might be something of value there.

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

interesting, yeah that makes sense

@andrewallason4530

2 жыл бұрын

Pour some diesel in, then burn it in the forge. Layer of nearly pure carbon.

Next, get some steel round stock that will sleeve into the copper tubing. See if solid stock will contain the molten copper. I love this idea. It’s an art knife or movie hero sword waiting to happen.

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Good idea!

@joshschneider9766

3 жыл бұрын

I would be very interested to see a billet alternating sheets of bronze with sheets of iron folder a lot of times. Like fifty or sixty thousand layers. Maybe ten or twelve folds. Would be lots of work but I bet you get a naval bronze type material.

You made steel doo-doo baby👍 Respect the effort.

@FireCreekForge

2 жыл бұрын

Yep, that's what it was!

Copper has very limited solubility in iron, of the order of about 2% max from what I can determine. Pure Copper melts at 1084C. I'd guess the Copper melted, there would have been limited solubility and what you have is a mixture where the molten Copper has intimately diffused throughout the very porous Steel Powder.

@anglerseawolf9919

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed. Copper melts at about 1983F and high carbon steel at about 2500-2700ish F. I don't know but would suspect forge welding at 1800-1900 may be too low to solidify the steel powder, but would love to see it tried. Opens the door to a lot of ideas if he could get it to work.

I have had steel crumble like that when i was experimenting with copper, and then read something about CCC copper contamination cracking, apparently at forge welding heats, it happens, so my guess would be, use copper powder, and solid steel, and forge it at copper fusion temp, not higher.

11:22 Copper and iron or steel are alloyed every day, and well used in modern industry. "Copper-Iron Alloys: offer high tensile strength, corrosion resistance and high thermal conductivity as well high electrical conductivity"

Thanks for trying it so we didn't have to. I am in no way an expert, but I do believe with powder steel it will never work. Like you displayed it'll become and weak crumbling alloy. Everyone I've seen do it successfully uses bar/sheet stock and lower temperatures. Thanks for producing great content for us, keep it up!

My question is, just how many different metals could be forged welded together? I think brass might be interesting. But then again, I want to see a canister with more than one grade of powder metal, bolts with nuts threaded the length of it in different grades, more than one size of cable and chain, and weld it all together. Shurap just did one with nuts and bolts, but I want longer bolts lengthways and possibly twisted. It may not be too late for me, but I really wish I had discovered this 40 years ago.

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

As far as steel goes, you should be able to weld nearly any combination of mild and carbon steel..

@Serenity_Dee

2 жыл бұрын

Brass melts at too low a temperature to even really work as a laminate, sadly.

@tatdster

Жыл бұрын

I love watch Shurap do his thing, dudes a beast when it comes to making blades. I really liked his stainless damascus, the way it blued up afterwards was awesome.

Even though it didn’t work out it was still interesting to watch!

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching!

@trohskcin

3 жыл бұрын

very interesting indeed, i think part of the problem was aside from the temp was that there just wasn't enough copper used the ratio was to heavy for the steel

Thank you it was a cool experiment.

Nice honest video. Thanks.

the thing is with copper, you dont want to forgeweld, its just brazing, thats why people do it in a go mai form, that way you are brazing the layers together

Thanks! I think we all learn more from our failures than our successes, thank you for sharing this one with us. Now we all know, and that is more useful than seeing another awesome knife build. Not that I don’t like awesome knife builds. 😃

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Cool, thanks for watching!

I'm a Pipewelder by trade. At one point I TIG welded black iron nipples to copper heating coils using stainless steel filler wire. It was a trick to do but once I dialed it in it welded great. I think copper plate and stainless steel work together and a blade steel center would work great. Just a thought

I gave this a go also and had the same failures. It can’t be powder steel it appears. Has to be a stacked billet.

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Yep, the copper soaks into the powder...

Forge welding temperature for most carbon steels is 1700-2000° F (stainless is higher), while the melting point of copper is 1984° F. Since you were going for a high enough temperature on the initial weld to ensure the powdered steel would weld, I'm guessing you wound up with powdered steel diffused through molten copper.

instead of whiteout could you use graphite paint from the farm store. Dont know just a question that crossed my mind

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Maybe?

Cu melting point is much lower than steel firge welding temps. As I'm sure lots of people have told you... However, if you forge weld some steel, and then get your Cu pieces/sheets in there at a lower temp but just below the melting point of the copper, you 'should' be able to get some welding happening. So, you need thermocouples...

With some mods, I would love to see your vision turn out. Someone else in the comments said what I was thinking, use steel tubes to contain the copper, weld the ends if you have to then use the powdered 1095 around that. My mental picture of your vision seems worth a shot!

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks! Yeah I think you're right

@vincedibona4687

3 жыл бұрын

@@FireCreekForge New sub, I look forward to your follow-up!

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

@@vincedibona4687 Thanks!

Good to see you again. Finally got my new place and internet back, (very depressing start of the year times like that are hard on your mind and body)so I'm back and it look like I need to catch up on some videos that I missed. That was an interesting project you did, sorry it didn't turn out as expected. I say give it another go and see how it works out. Stay safe my friend!

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks Steve, stay safe, thanks for watching

Use a very thin layer of whiteout, it will dry fast and not flake off but it works fine.

@FireCreekForge

Жыл бұрын

For some reason I had issues with it flaking off, Maybe it was the knock off brand I used..

The only way I know of that dissimilar metals like copper and steel can be "welded" together is blast welding which is extreme but who knows. Maybe you will stumble across a unique way. I applaud the creativity and willingness to try. Every successful invention is preceded by multiple failed attempts. Don't let it discourage you

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks, I appreciate it!

Ok so yes you can alloy steel and copper, basically you made a form of naval bronze which is essentially an iron and copper hybrid metal used for its hardness and it's resistance to salt water corrosion. Neat trick and useful machining materials but yeah I'm not optimistic. Maybe tinker with a chunk of naval bronze it's commercially available.

Cool man, at least I know I'm not the only one that has happened to. I made a PID controlled forge w a low pressure gas bypass, to where the gas never really shuts off when the PID shuts the forge down to keep explosions down and its much safer with a bypass. I think the forge has to have a blower though, but Im not sure. It has worked great for this copper stuff. The only way I have managed to keep the copper in the billet was to layer it like damascus and weld all the way around it and keep the billet around 1650 to let it just stick to the other metals. I always have had delaminents to cut out though

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

I see, good to know, precise temp control isn't something I've addressed in my forges

It was worth a try.

What you're doing is cool man thumbs up! Experimenting and sharing even the fails that's science and it's educational !

@FireCreekForge

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you sir!

Yeah, No powders. The guys I helped make "patterned copper" in the 90's were canning steel shards and split pipe... and low temperatures. By split I mean cut into C's. They had a few billets overheat too. Watch out for the green flames.

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Yep, I figured out that trying to weld steel together and braze at the same time doesn't work...

The problem with this process is the copper is liquid at welding temp which you need to achieve in order make the powder solid, so it probably just melted and consolidated to one side of the can. The copper will be visible without etching. I think you should pursue some cu mai or coppermascus. Like to see what you make!!!

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, it's possible to forge weld steel down to even 1600F+ with the right pressure, which is below the copper melting point of approx 1950, so there should be a window there, but I got it way too hot for that...

Have you tried making a blade from your blend and see if it's hard enough to hold an edge and tough enough to withstand a pounding? and if not, might your blend make an element in a damascus that's then san mai'd to a good cutting edge steel? Might make for some interesting colors in a damascus.

Good experiment, learned much today. Thanks Boss🤘

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching

11:14 - I believe the word you're looking for is "amalgam"

@mattbrady2697

3 жыл бұрын

Nope, the word is Alloy

@Breakfast_and_Bullets

3 жыл бұрын

@@mattbrady2697 Upon further research, "amalgam" is specific to mercury alloys. If the metals mix but do not bond, it is simply called a "mixture."

I have seen people use a coat of spray paint instead of white out and it worked pretty good

@FireCreekForge

Жыл бұрын

Yep, that's what I do now

Try use instead Cu a nickel bronze ( 10% Ni or so) Ni is soluble in Cu at melting point also it increases melting point of copper allot making it more forgeable ( Ni bronze under 10% is yellow citrin over is silver colored if remembered correct...) Melting point of this alloy is arround 1200-1300°C so when prepared from Cu, Ni powders furnace must be able to reach that temperature! It starts from 1083°C for copper but it grows allot from Ni.... This bronze due to the nickel is more iron friendly in forging usually pattern will look like gold....

Try putting cable into the pipe and outside of the pipe,that would be cool.

When you first mentioned that it was correction fluid rather than white out, my first thought was I wonder if that's actually got titanium dioxide in lol, then 30 seconds later you queried the same thing. I like it when people think about why something works, and don't just assume that a lookalike product is a chemical doppelganger. To be honest, using the correction fluid has added an extra layer of anticipation and jeopardy, as I too wonder if it'll function in an identical manner to white out!

Why not put braided steel cable inside of each copper tubing? Or even a smaller diameter steel tube inside the copper, and then copper wire? That would make a cool pattern. Edit: after watching to the end.... Nevermind

In small amounts, copper makes the steel easier to machine, but anything other than trace amounts and it makes the steel very brittle.

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Yes it's no bueno

The literal exact same thing happened to me when trying a canister with Pennies and dimes. I think heat control is the key 🤷‍♂️

Weld steel tubes filled with copper to end pieces then make your can 1 side at a time from flat stock welding each wall to the end pieces. Before welding your last side fill the inside with your powdered steel like making a caneau style can.

I enjoyed watching this totally successful research and development being conducted. The research answered a few questions and created a few more questions, as good research will do. Copper rods might have stood a better chance . But it would never have ended in a pattern. Just no way to fuse the powder without turning the copper into liquid. The copper/steel game has a top end temperature of coppers melting point. No matter what ya plan, go higher than that and its a puddle of copper at the bottom. You fuse the copper to the steel. But the steel cant fuse to anything. The copper acts like a sticker.

Hello and thanks for your video In the past you would put a little copper in the forge of a blacksmith you couldn't stand. This makes fire welding much more difficult.

Try copper with ball bearings something solid that the copper doesn't melt into or maybe run cable inside the copper pipes

I have so many canister Damascus ideas to try but I have no blacksmithing equipment, nor afford it. But 2 ideas I had are random steal in the canister, or pieces of former billets and pieces off failed projects,

@FireCreekForge

2 жыл бұрын

Yep, that's often called dinosaur damascus, makes some neat blades

You know white spray paint will work as long as it has titanium dioxide in it and it seems to work better than whiteout from what I’ve seen

I love it!! It’s so awesome watching you create these beautiful blades. I’m subscribed and eager to see more. Yes! I think this version is well worth pursuing. I’m also interested in watching you do a twist Damascus, if you have already posted one could you please share the link? I’m new here, I just found your channel today… 9/05/2022

Respect 🙏

Probably easier to get Titanium White Spray Paint for the canister lining

Well sir, it was a great try and I give you "A" for effort. If nothing else then it is a learning lesson should you ever decide to try it again in the future. Either way it was a good video.

A copper iron alloy is a bit of a rare combination. There should be 2 different crystals in your sample, an iron rich bcc phase, and a copper rich fcc phase. I wonder what the physical properties are like. If you want to learn more about the chemistry check out some phase diagrams.

generally a white pigment used industrially is titanium dioxide ether for paint or for other white stuff, especially since lead is illegal most places in the world now as a pigment.

Great idea. That no budget white out is just low grade white paint.

Finished result reminds me of the "food" found under my kids car seats.

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Lol you too?!?

Love the video!! Also, loved the Tim Hawkins reference. 😉

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Haha, thanks!

In an art class I took in college they showed us a video once of famous museum pieces one was literally a piece of small rope.

Try using a palm sander to vibrate your canister.

I know I'm late toe the game but, I'm wondering if a twisted steel cable inside the copper tubes would make a good pattern? Especially if you were to take a 3x3 tube group and twist them after the initial press welding.

Very cool idea!.. I think there is a stainless steel alloy that actually contains copper.. its like 17-4ph or something like that..

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

I see, interesting

Maybe try sliding steel rods inside the copper pipe and other steel rods around the copper to reduce the amount of powdered steel you use, it feels like that much powdered steel just won't forge weld very good to start with.

Never know till you try!

I saw someone do that with tiles, maybe that's the key to it.

Everyone always love science ❤️👍🏻👍🏻🤣

I bet if you did this in reverse, it may have a way better chance of working out; Powder the copper and put solid steel in; the issue arises from the copper reaching melting temp before the steel is weldable; so doing it that way may yield results.

Try find and steel tube to Slide the copper tube into to create a barrier for the copper not to leach into powder steel

@FireCreekForge

2 жыл бұрын

Hmm, good idea

@turbosport3954

2 жыл бұрын

@@FireCreekForge fill me in if u try it and it comes right

Copper has a much lower melting point than steel, so it would be difficult to weld them together.

What a cool experiment man!

@FireCreekForge

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks!!

Anyway, enjoyed it.

Yeah I've tried copper and can and you can really get a good mess of things. But you got it all homogenized which is impressive!