Flip monsters didn't fail. The mechanic was simply powercrept to death now

@bernarduswyattgianci7533

Жыл бұрын

Yeah Shaddoll, krawler, subteror are good flip monster

@youtubeuniversity3638

Жыл бұрын

You say as if there is a distinction.

@Felnal

Жыл бұрын

@@youtubeuniversity3638 There is a distinction. Failure implies they were bad right from the get-go.

@Subarashii_Nem

Жыл бұрын

​​@@Felnal But it doesn't tho.. They still failed when they ended up useless and never used. When your car breaks down because of a faulty engine, you say the engine failed. The engine didn't start off broken and faulty, it got that way over time but it still failed in the end. They are still a failed mechanic in this case. They may have started off good but because of power creep and the changes to the game, they are basically useless now, thus they are a failed mechanic in the game.

@Eibarwoman

Жыл бұрын

I'd also say given the Jars that the line between good but too clunky and too powerful is very thin. Powerful flip effects that aren't too powerful like the Shaddolls or Guru are rather hard to make as if you had a deck with 3 of both Cyber and Morphing, you'd have something that could probably mill an opponent to death too consistently. The limits are specifically to keep a deck off meta as to not annoy people to death as mill is well... yeah, very annoying. Edit: Emphasis on consistently.

You should talk about Fusion during the early years of the game because Fusion summoning used to be really bad early on in the game.

@burnum

Жыл бұрын

Well, it was an experimental phase, like how each of the other alternate summon methods were experiments at first.

@TheTundraTerror

Жыл бұрын

Honestly, Fusion is still pretty bad, if we're being real. You're dumping 2 creatures and a spell into a single summon. There's a reason Instant Fusion is Limited. EDIT: I should clarify that I am talking about the mechanic of fusion. Yes, this are busted fusion monsters. No, the fact that they are regularly cheated out doesn't save the mechanic. The fact that they had to print Branded Fusion shows me that that the original mechanic is garbage to the point that they have to allow you to use creatures from your deck to fusion summon.

@justinjones7411

Жыл бұрын

Wasn't really until Thousand Eyes Restrict when Fusion Monsters started becoming more powerful.

@blackswelproductions3876

Жыл бұрын

​@@TheTundraTerror no they are not

@Weeniewarrior15

Жыл бұрын

@@TheTundraTerror branded despia, tearlament and other fusion focused archetype dominated the meta recently. I think the traditional fusion deck do suck but those that have fusion cards that allow to fuse from the deck makes it very viable and very powerful depending on the boss cards.

I'd like to see Flip monsters that get Waking the Dragon-type effects where you're heavily punished if you remove them while they're face-down, so they're only "vulnerable" while face-up. It'd be another way to do the Danger theme where the monsters hide themselves, and you have to make them reveal themselves to "capture" them.

@christopherfeatherley

Жыл бұрын

That would be such a cool archetype to see, if that ever does come to fruition 😁 great idea!

@Kuubudaraa

Жыл бұрын

Could be like a cycle of trap-door spiders that 'pounce' you if you disturb their set-face-down 'burrows'

@Sillimant_

Жыл бұрын

krawlers

@TransparentlyDuplicitous

Жыл бұрын

@@Sillimant_ I want the opposite of Krawlers. Krawlers special summon when removed while face-up.

@TransparentlyDuplicitous

Жыл бұрын

@@Kuubudaraa That's a great theme for it. It'd be fun if they also synergized with Traptrix. That way, the deck could have some disruption before the opponent sets up a board of negates since, as is, this is very weak to negates. I just love the idea of setting 5 and passing being remotely viable nowadays.

I think this is a great example of a powerful tool that became weak - I would love a video about cards and/or mechanics that had the biggest increase in power over time!

@RashFaustinho

Жыл бұрын

Want a textbook example? Rituals. Pre Gishki archetype (which was around Zexal era) Konami had no idea on what to do with this summoning mechanic, and it was almost completely useless. After Gishki managed to set some standards, actual decent Ritual Cards started getting printed, and the mechanic as a whole saw a resurgence, even hitting tier 0 once (Nekroz)

@inakimendiberri2226

Жыл бұрын

Fusion and ritual summoning come to mind

@zoaero

Жыл бұрын

Fusion 😅

@santasangre996

Жыл бұрын

@@RashFaustinho the mechanic itself didnt really get more powerful though, it just has some actual meta decks now. If anything rituals got less desirable over time because you'd rather summon powerful monsters off your extra deck so ritual decks have to be overly busted to compensate e.g. nekroz

@heavenbot

Жыл бұрын

​@@santasangre996 You hit the nail on the head with that one! I often think about whether Drytron or Nekroz would have ever even been considered for print if it weren't for the sad lack of playable ritual archetypes. After seeing the cult following of Gishki (and then Megalith), I assume they had no choice but to pander, but it's still fun to think about!

Another cool thing about flip monsters is the ability to bluff or scare your opponent to buy a turn. However the modern yugioh is now about using your whole deck in a single turn.

I played the game really heavily in the early days and Flip monsters were absolutely amazing back then. To the point you needed cards like Crossout and Sasuke Samurai to deal with them. One video I would like to see is the evolution of Field Control. Back in the day it was cards like Ground Collapse, Gravekeepers Servant and Gravity Bind.

@aprinnyonbreak1290

Жыл бұрын

Ah, Penguin Soldier, my love.

@smb-c3po

Жыл бұрын

We were limited of what cards we had available at the time.

@mangckyatmamon

Жыл бұрын

Ahhh Gravity Bind. Combined with my A Legendary Ocean and other 4 star Water monsters and Star Boy, brings me so much joy. It's a shit deck but it's MY shit deck that goes toe to toe with recess duelers.

@LikeItSaysInTheBook

Жыл бұрын

I used to have a Deck in 7 Trials to Glory to farm DP with the Ring of Magnetism glitch with Des Imp (the flip effect monster that brings cards from the Graveyard) with Reload and Monster Recovery. I also had a monster that let's you send a Monster back to your hand or look at the top card of your opponents deck. I used it with Tea and essentially could have the Battle go indefinitely with Robbin' Goblin for the Spell card (a sword spell card that can't be destroyed or sent to the Graveyard).

Ah yes... Flip Monsters, or how my friend used to call them: Trap Cards with stats.

@jofx4051

Жыл бұрын

Hmmm

@johndexterzarate6663

Жыл бұрын

....Eldlich: Oh really?

@kauanjos3199

Жыл бұрын

Trap monsters with extra steps

@Deathmare235

Жыл бұрын

@@kauanjos3199 hell just call them trap monsters at that point

Still a big fan of Ghostricks. You still can't really use them if the opponent is using Link monsters, but it's incredibly fun to struggle back and forth for control with your opponent using them. Protecting your monsters from being attacked when they're face down, flipping their monsters down and preventing them from being flipped up, and just ignoring their cards completely and doing direct damage. It's an appropriately mischievous deck for the archetype.

@Realdeal958

Жыл бұрын

So much fun especially when you get that win off after struggling to get past their monsters. I feel like you have to plan a few steps ahead and that's why I like them so much. The fact that they aren't very strong monsters stat wise gives off the vibe that you need to use everything you got to win. Such a great feeling when you get them to go off.

@Noobie2k7

Жыл бұрын

It's partly why I honestly believe Link summoning is by far the worst mechanic Konami have ever introduced and it directly contributed heavily to the overall decline in the quality and fun of the game. The fact they had to completely revert major changes they made to the rules of the game after they changed them to force Link summoning says a lot. Now it's too late to ever do anything about it, since they can never get rid of link summoning.

@orangegalen

Жыл бұрын

Sarcastically: Haven’t you heard? You’re not supposed to struggle back and forth. Either you shut down your opponent on turn one, or disrupt them badly enough on their first turn with handtraps that you can then shut them down on turn two. But I feel you, it’s so much more satisfying of a game if there’s that back and forth, competing your strategies and adapting to the game state.

@infinityfactorial

Жыл бұрын

I just love how Recurring Nightmare allows Ghostrick to just keep grinding many, many turns after it "should" run out of resources. Lantern/Specter for days!

@Wolf_Nations

Жыл бұрын

I also like to play a ghostrick deck just for the fun of it, granted i also play a version to turbo Utopic Draco Future if needed but just dealing with the shenanigans of field controlling is really funny.

Out of the solutions you've suggested, the last one was the best imo. The first was also really good. They can also start focusing their "Power creeping budget" on FLIP monsters themselves. For example, newly printed FLIP monsters can have one or more of the following effects: 1) When this set monster is destroyed by a card effect, activate it's FLIP effect. 2) This monster's FLIP effect activation and resolution cannot be negated. 3) Neither player can respond to this monster's FLIP effect activation. 4) If this card leaves the field without activating and resolving its FLIP effect: etc... *Insert more examples here* Ideas for generic FLIP support cards, they could have the following effects: 1) If you control a set monster, *insert strong effect* 2) This turn, you can special summon monsters in face-down defense position instead of face-up defense position. 3) While this card is face up on the field, your opponent cannot target set monsters you control with card effects. 4) Target 1 set monster you control: Pay half your life points, then flip that monster face up. You can only activate this effect of blah blah once per turn. 5) Add one spell/trap card from your deck to your hand that mentions the word FLIP in its text. (Cuz you need support for the generic support) *insert more generic support ideas that I won't be thinkin about for more than 10 minutes that's for sure*

@TheFloodFourm

Жыл бұрын

If you can put any of that on a card with a font higher then 3 then I’ll agree with you.

@sharkplay1261

Жыл бұрын

Or they could just change the mechanic of flip monsters to act similarly to counter traps allowing them to flip on your opponents turn

@lordpaulphilippfernandez9904

Жыл бұрын

It would still be useless since you can at most only have 1 set monster. Special summons are only in face-up attack or defense position, which basically makes FLIP monsters useless. What flip monsters really need is a way to have more of them in the field, by making their effects stronger, your idea, and better if a combination of both. That way, they are still relevant.

@BF1_enthusiast

Жыл бұрын

@@lordpaulphilippfernandez9904 I actually said that in my comment as one of the generic support effects xD

The dread I felt back in the day when attacking a set monster and it turned out to be Man Eater Bug...

@sharkplay1261

Жыл бұрын

Ah the good old days of me and my man eater I still run a flip deck in master duel it works every now and then

@LikeItSaysInTheBook

Жыл бұрын

Which is why I've always had a Sangan or Witch of the Dark Forest with me on the field.

If they changed it so that Flip effects also activated if the monster was destroyed by card effect, that would probably fix them.

The only way to fix flip monsters would be to make FLIP (i.e Pyro/FLIP/effect) mean you can flip them up any time on your op's turn. Basically making them pseudo trap cards for the main monster zones. Maybe making them counter trap speed, so only other FLIP or counter traps can stop their effects popping off.

@nacl4988

Жыл бұрын

Subterrors *Fixed* them without making the monsters flip themself... Then again they have a reusable Trap which does it for them.

@mairain6443

Жыл бұрын

@@nacl4988 I know, subterror and Krawler have trap cards make them work, but you need those cards, if FLIP just flips them up when you want them it can make them better but have the use for the traps on the turn they are set. I know both aren't actually FLIP arch types but i think you get my point. I would allow easier interruptions without relaying on the traps for that purpose

@brianaguilar8283

Жыл бұрын

That would be too broken with cards like Morphing Jar

@mairain6443

Жыл бұрын

@@brianaguilar8283 Some cards might be broken but you can always Ban the busted ones. But what else really breaks it? Penguin solider? Ninja? nothing really breaks it but just makes them viable and means T-set pass, could mean they bricked or they are playing a FLIP card making you think out your plays more.

@zoaero

Жыл бұрын

​​@@brianaguilar8283 but still if they really make it it gonna change meta a lot and fix flip mechanic

Flip monsters are supposed to function similar to trap cards, they punish the opponent for letting their guard down

@Hin1994

Жыл бұрын

Only problem with that is there is no other card, besides a brick that you would set in the main monster zone so it's not hard to play around

@qhillis

Жыл бұрын

Yeah 15 years ago. This is modern Yugioh where letting your opponent do whatever they want on their turn just to attack into your flip monster which can easily get its effects negated will lose you a duel. Even trap cards, which can interrupt your opponent’s plays whenever, heavily struggle to keep up.

@ItsPForPea

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, a trap that takes your normal summon. Doesn't sound that good does it.

@brianaguilar8283

Жыл бұрын

@@qhillis yeah, and modern yugioh is a complete mess of a game now with millions of negates and handtraps being the deciding factor on who wins a duel. Oh you didn’t draw your Nibiru? Just sit and watch the opponent special summon hundreds of times and set up hundreds of negate in what is basically a one-sided game

@CErra310

Жыл бұрын

@@brianaguilar8283 yugiboomers are not welcome in human society

You can also use Lord of the heavenly prison to give flip monster protection from destruction from card effects, because his effect protects all set cards not just set spells/traps. Not that this makes flip monsters any better just something to point out.

@jvsonic2468

Жыл бұрын

Ah you've done well with reading cards my good sir.

Is it fair to call these Flip monsters failed? They were good 15 years ago, they've just fallen out of favor.

@goncaloferreira6429

Жыл бұрын

better say that the game evolved to a point where one of its defining features is no more.

@LikeItSaysInTheBook

Жыл бұрын

I used to have a Sangan with me on the field for this reason. Edit: Responded to the wrong comment, smh.

@R055LE.1

11 ай бұрын

Good.. Ish. Really just a few like Ryko

@shameronstar7220

11 ай бұрын

New legacy support that takes advantage of them being flip effects seems overdue.

@d-_-b8558

9 ай бұрын

Not at all. I agree, Flip Monsters were very good in the past. Hardly a "failed" mechanic. More like a "powercrept" mechanic.

Master rule 6, Flip Monsters can spell speed 2 (quick effect) flip themselves into face up attack position. Their flip effect will trigger after the present chain resolves. So for example, you have Penguin Soldier set and your opponent starts their turn with Raigeki, you chain flip Penguin Soldier to attack mode, chain resolves and Penguin Soldier is destroyed. Afterwards, Penguin Soldier's flip effect triggers and bounces up to 2 monsters (there were no monsters so effect basically fails).

We need more slow cards that punish the opponent in some way for screwing you out of getting to use them. Make cards that'll near always do something, maybe even more for being outed than used, as a try at counterbalancing being slow. Surrender speed and in exchange gain certianty.

@alecoppeac

Жыл бұрын

That's what they Tried to achieve with krawlers... All those monsters float into 2 copies of other krawlers when they leave the field because of effects, making It so that your opponent has to choose between letting the flip resolve or giving you a free +1. The problem is that the flip effects are kinda trash (except Deus, that card Is crazy)

@youtubeuniversity3638

Жыл бұрын

​@@alecoppeac And might we be able to apply "trade speed for certainty" to more than only Flip Monsters?

I think Flip monsters should go the route of Nekroz. An archtype of flip monsters that all say “Quick effect: During your opponent’s turn, you can reveal this card in your hand, flip one monster you control to face up defense position” would make it so you can trigger the flip effects of your own cards any time you want, drastically speeding up the mechanic, while also still requiring that the card be set on your own turn to keep the spirit of the mechanic

@misfire33

Жыл бұрын

Great idea tbh!

No flip monster is not failed mechanic, is just a very old mechanic. If Konami print card Flip draw three card this card see tones of play from sure. The effect was not enought, no the mechanic

@fortnitesexman

Жыл бұрын

it didn't fail initially, but it has over the years a good mechanic is one that works, and flip monsters just don't work anymore

@tenkenroo

Жыл бұрын

Too easy to destroy. Now if modern flip effects also had effects that activated in graveyard MAYBE they would be used.

@streetgamer3452

Жыл бұрын

Pot of the forbidden allows you to draw 2. It sees zero play. A flip would have to be able to flip itself over and floodgate the opponent to be used. Just a flip that says “Flip: Draw 3” would still not be used without a “If your opponent controls a Monster, you can flip this card face-up”

@dimitriskontoleon6787

Жыл бұрын

​@@streetgamer3452 yes but this monster was level 8, and in fact is forced to see play in very specific deck. (even if had also three overpower effect to choose). I mean on level 4 or lower. I still get your point, maybe now, even the flip draw 3 was not enought even if you forced to not have normal summon and if you forced to protect this card in order to take this effect the next turn. (or after possible attack)

@streetgamer3452

Жыл бұрын

@@dimitriskontoleon6787 level 4 and lowers will never get that type of effect. That’s not conceivable imo outside of well customs.

I love this video. Some of my all time favorite older cards are flip effect monsters that never even have the chance of being used in today's fast game. One way this flip effect mechanic could have a similar effect to what they once had is if they included a "face down" effect. Where a monster effect has the option to have the "Flip" effect or an immediate "face down" effect.

I really liked clown control deck back in the days, even if it wasn't that strong, effects that are activated when monsters changed their battle positions were interesting.

I think a fun series that definitely has some longevity would be failed archetypes. Discuss what's inherently wrong with the archetype at the time of release and at the time the most recent support was provided, and provide suggestions on what card(s) would be needed to make the archetype better

@TWLSpark

Жыл бұрын

Legacy of the worthless' spiritual successor?

Flips should reinvent themselves like Big Shield Gardna. Give each member of an archetype 4 distinct effects: 1) A normal, instant advantage effect like modern cards. Say a search on summon. 2) An effect that lets them HOPT flip themselves face down instead of being destroyed, or an effect that lets them flip themselves face down to negate the activation of a card that targets them, or if theyre used as material for an archetypal extra deck summon, etc 3) an effect that lets them flip face up when a condition happens, say if a monster is moved from the gy, a normal summoned monster activates an effect, the opponent draws a card, etc 4) a flip effect

@jvsonic2468

Жыл бұрын

so no continuous effects like Deus Ex Krawler would exist in your ideal of a perfect Flip monster?

Great video, love all these niche tear lists. Video idea: Top most expensive cards that have a common (re)print

it's always interesting seeing vids like these showing how a mechanic is bad not because it is actually bad but because it is archaic and obsolete. it really is interesting seeing how much change can make something that was 1ce dominant become just an old unusable relic

I still use pure Shaddoll deck to this day. Such a fun deck. I know Construct and Winda are the big fusion monsters but, I have won duels with Shekhinga and Apkallone. Always like using Shaddoll against decks like Tri Brigade and Kaiju.

@orangegalen

Жыл бұрын

Pure Shaddoll was/is the first deck I built in Master Duel, and even back when Drytron was at full power, I could still manage wins.

@kauanjos3199

Жыл бұрын

Have you tried the ishizu engine? Even if they're all at 1 they give gas to shadoll

What's interesting about this is, the main reason being they failed "Because the game is faster," a lot of people still argue that's the game's fault and dislike that aspect more than the cards being slower.

@youtubeuniversity3638

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, a lot of us miss turn 3.

@LunarSoul255

10 ай бұрын

@@youtubeuniversity3638 Wait, you can *play* this game? I thought it was just "your opponent plays a whole bunch of monsters all at once, says 'screw game balance, I have special summons!', then you scoop".

on MD I tried floodgating with Subterrors and Ghostricks. SB Ultramafus mass Book of Moons, Ghostrick Night stops your opponent from flip summoning if you control a Ghostrick (I used Angel of Mischeif as we didint have Festival.) Ghostrick Manor allows for direct attacks while not touching for your opponents monsters. I just never pulled of the lock. I had options to deal with link monsters. There will be a day where I can abuse Ghostrick Night.

Flip Monsters are my favourite Jank Deck for Casual tabletop play with the bois, nothing is more fun then actually resolving Dice Jar haha

You run 3 separate printings of Ryko to gaslight your opponent about what its effect specifically does, obviously.

@gogovish

Жыл бұрын

gaslamp not gaslight. it isn't hard to get right

@thatman666

Жыл бұрын

Oh gosh, this is almost similar to Necrovalley erratas.

Who remembers penguin soldier? My friend used to return his penguin soldier and one of my monsters back to my hand when I attacked in to it. Later on I understood that penguin soldier is supposed to be destroyed by battle 😂 We had the same issue with black cat with white tail too. We just thought it was a straight up overpowered version of penguin soldier hahaha

@dragonsuper6195

Жыл бұрын

Yup cheap level 100

Say what you will, but when the stars align, Aroma Jar stall is a magical and hilarious thing.

Would love to see you talk in-depth about exodia retrains, given how they're even less popular than the original exodia.

I’d suggest a link 1 crawler or subterror that requires a flip monster. And it’ll have a unique summon effect where you reveal the link to your opponent, then target a face down and flip it. As long as it’s a flip monster, it’s flip effect resolves and then the link is link summoned. It can from that point basically do nothing but it already served it’s purpose.

@pi_xi

Жыл бұрын

I am playing a Krawler/Digital Bug deck with Voltelluric and it actually works well. A Link 1 Krawler would be interesting, but maybe too broken together with Ranvier.

Making the flip effect useable instantly would just defeat the point of the mechanic. I like the Ghostrick solution better: Face-downs can't be attacked, but don't stop direct attacks. This increases the chance they will survive long enough to activate.

Neat analysis video! Thanks for uploading!

One way to improve flip monsters is to make them like trap cards where you can immediately flip them up on your opponents turn. In addition, should create flip monsters that are Spell Speed 4. This wouldn't automatically make them a powerhouse but at least it would significantly improve them. Like they could have a "Solemn Judgement" like flip monster that negates effects or summons, maybe having them banish instead of destroy to buff them

@randomcatname7792

Жыл бұрын

That's the worst idea anyone's come up with Flip monsters would be stronger than full power Zoodiac at that point

@jokerofmorocco

Жыл бұрын

@@randomcatname7792 It still has the disadvantage of requiring to be set first like trap cards which is why the effects should be strong

@youtubeuniversity3638

Жыл бұрын

​@@jokerofmorocco Screw strength, it defeats the point of making them flip monsters I would argue... How do we make *being slow* not be a problem? How do we slit speed's throat?

Never stop uploading content, i love this channel 👏🏽👏🏽

Flips either need a way to flip as response, give good graveyard effects like shadoll or give them just like, broken effects

@Yinyanyeow

Жыл бұрын

The last one was done for them... didn't work sadly...

@Zer0Main43

Жыл бұрын

The only way to fix flips is to make them flip as response, they tried giving flips good grave effects, then people started playing flips just for the graveyard effects, they tried giving flips the most busted shit ever but they are too slow to take advantage of how good their effects are if their effects are even good

@zoaero

Жыл бұрын

Konami just need allow you too set 2 monster card per turn, and also you can active it if a card target it with effect in opponent turn

@Zer0Main43

Жыл бұрын

@@zoaero yea you could use your second normal to set a flip, or you could use your second normal to go into an extender, a floodgate, a tower or Aleister for the invoked engine and probably a lot more Also they could still be beat by non-targeting removal or board wipes (aka: most going second tools) and most flip monster effects wouldn’t be good enough even if you could set them after a full combo, like some would obviously be good when they activate but there are just too many ways around them even if set cards flipped when they are targeted which also wouldn’t only benefit flips, a lot of cards want to get targeted to activate effects and would be a lot better if your opponent didn’t specifically know they have to play around them, a shit ton of cards would get way better and I don’t think flips would benefit the most because flips still have the problem of being slow and having faster options for similar effects, even if you had 2 normals and face down targeted monsters flipped face up, so many other cards would benefit from that and I don’t think flips would become playable if both happened

@CarbonMalite

Жыл бұрын

They all need conditions to allow them to special summon themselves face down, allow protections while face down (face down position should've been harder to target to begin with), and/or have abilities that allow them to use flip effects under more generic conditions

Flip monsters have a lot of the same problems "battle traps" do; they can't do anything on Turn 1 and they do nothing at all if they're removed in any way before you can activate them. I had a better Failed Cards idea, but I can't remember what it is, so I'll just suggest Earthbound Gods again. Earthbound Gods "fixed" some of the issues Toon monsters had, but still aren't good outside of the hummingbird and haven't received any support.

@williamdrum9899

Жыл бұрын

I think the biggest problem is that a single Normal Summon lets you start a chain reaction of vomiting out a huge number of monsters, and flip monsters basically require you to skip all that for a huge number of archetypes.

I'd like to see history of the meta part 2

No better feeling than a Cyber Jar turning a losing situation into a winning game.

Mecha Phantom Beasts are an interesting case of how tokens are utilized but fails in variety of different ways. The archetype surprisingly have many different cards to use token generation based play but it does in a way that is clunky and slow. There is like 2 usefull main deck monsters in the archetype that is actually decent those being Tetherwolf and O-Lion. Aside from those monsters, the archetype has little to no monsters allowing you to create advantage properly. And the acrhetype has in my opinion, includes one of the worst spell/trap support in the entire game ranging from cards with costly maintenance/activation costs and generating little to no advantage. As for extra deck monsters, Dracossac and Auroradon are actually the only competitively useful monsters to the point they are used as generic support for other decks, but not used in their home archetype since majority of cards doesn't do great job creating a synergy with them. I really want to see a video on this topic. These cards certainly have an interesting history despite the archetype itself is barely funtional

Having a rota that is specific to generic flip monsters could be a crazy support. Maybe too crazy that it might get a limited off rip even with a hard once per turn and/or strict level limit, but I feel like a flip monster search wouldn’t be incredibly nasty, but maybe too techable in some decks that may use such a search card for its floating effect or the extra discard for a combo/extension play.

I'm still trying to make a Shaddoll deck - cheers for the inspiration!

best flip monster nowadys still bein the Morphing jars. Especially #2, because many player doesn't seem to concerned about face down monsters, set up beat down boards without an option to counter a flip monster. Had quite a bunch of matches in Master Duel where people quit gamer after getting wiped by #2 effect

With flip monsters having such a legacy, it is strange that there are so few cards with once per flip restrictions. You should do a video about those!

I just made Prediction Princess Guard Dog Turbo deck that I'm having fun with. I also think it would be a cool, but not at all broken, piece of generic FLIP support if there was a card that let you shuffle the Set monsters on the field (like Magical Hats). Just in general, it might be a cool idea for FLIP card to lean into how they are face down and your opponent doesn't know what they are. That and the other things that were said about making them more like Ninja cards (maybe that's how Ninjas work, I don't know, I've never heard of them before)

My first yugioh deck ever was just random flip effect monsters back in 9th grade when i knew nothing about playing but just used all the old cards i had from my younger years

I think Gravekeeper Spy is like solemn Judgement for the fact we didn't know at the time the potential. Playing a lot of GOAT format I use Panda burn with 3 spy's. People can't get around that usually, unless they are -1 just to get through that 2000 defense.

remember the art of charmers and played it in master duels. was introduce to subterror and learning it. its a fun flip mechanic, still get crushed by fast decks though haha

My favorite was using "Invader of the Throne". Sooo many ppl used this card incorrectly. Using trap "Light of Intervention" after setting invader. This way u can steal your opponent's monster with invader's flip effect or trigger trap during ur opponent's turn after they summon a monster.

I wonder if it could help to give flip monsters the effect that, if they are about to leave the field, they can be flipped face up. That would fix the removal issue while keeping their effects, instead of giving additional ones. And could potentially be used together with self-bouncing card or something similar. Also, I know why it's difficult to do, but introducing something like special setting (akin to special summoning, but allows you to set the monsters face down instead) could help. It could also find play alongside or against strategy that limits special summoning.

Triple gravekeepers spy and guard was a staple in blackwing decks. Since it gave you a free lvl 4 monster for a syncro summon.

Love your videos as an old ygo player and your voice as a viewer

I would love to see a video by you on Battle Traps one day!

What I like to see on Flip Archetypes is how they do your Gimmick of the best way possible, Prediction Princess has his Rituals, that even can look kinda Clunck it's curious the fact that they can be good for even Flip Monster, Worm is a strange case because even If was used on some tournaments It wasn't for the Flip strategy, and because you can go to a lot of plus with the Very few good cards (Xex sends Yagan, Yagan summon himself, with Meteor Nebula you can Flip Yagan and maybe a Cartaros, draw some cards and summons freely King from the deck), Krawlers even If they aren't necessary good Flip Monsters on the Sense of their Flip effects they are Very good on swarming the field and their World Legacy cards that até focused on Krawlers. Tindangle I think is the only modern Flip deck that I can say that failed because It has a lot of higher level Monsters that doesn't summon themselves easily (except intruder) and the dumbiest decision of giving Focus on that level 5 0/2100 that I Forgot the name that himself isn't a Flip Monster and doesn't has a incredible effect to bê mentioned on other Tindangle Monsters, it's more like a Garnet that you need to use because other cards mention him.

@jvsonic2468

Жыл бұрын

there's still a way to save them properly, but it would go towards the means of broken for the entire mechanic as a whole which is unfortunate.

@mateusgabriel6108

Жыл бұрын

One thing that It would bê a great for Flip decks it's a Monster with this kinda of effect: If you Control a face-down defense position Monster, you can special summon this card (from your hand). If this cards is summoned by this way you can target 1 face-down defense position, change this card battle position. Some bad Worm Monsters has this kinda of effect, but they aren't good because they don't summon themselves easily (and I don't understand why all level 6 worms has the special summon restriction, they aren't Flip Monsters, the Archetype can't summon them easily and you can't even special summon them by generic methods).

@jvsonic2468

Жыл бұрын

@@mateusgabriel6108 part of that is possible lore reasons but also is when they were released and hadn't gotten much direct support since. They came from a time in YGO is all about grind and tempo and most cards back then were horribly designed due to experimentation and possibly lack of play testing. Don't know why Konami is pretending to forget about them when us, the playerbase, know how to fix the deck's strategy for modern standards.

Give a card an effect, but then let that affect amplify if it is triggered through flipping the card face up. ex. Summon/Special summon - mill 1 card from decks. Flip - Mill 2 cards from decks

I say the only way to make a flip archetype tier 1 or tier 0 is to combine the fundamentals of 3 differs t archetypes together into one: Shaddolls, Ghostricks, and Subterrors. Gotta give them a way to abuse and force their battle states and positions at will, alternate effects if they're sent to the grave without activating their flip effects and the ability to lock down your opponent if you have face down monsters. It's the only way I could see it working with how fast Yugioh has become

Mimicking man eater bug is a solid card when you are playing against a 1 archetype deck, it's only weakness becomes spells that can target it since no monster can ever deal with it

Union monsters, Dark Scorpions, and the Weapon Summoners. All three were cool ideas that were slagged up in release

I've been thinking of a few different flip monster effects based on hoops and a few different potential support cards. Some powerful effects are often based on board state drawbacks like not having as many cards as your opponent. If this facedown card is targeted flip this card face up and active effects based on the number of other facedown monsters you control. Only active this effect if there are no cards in your spell and trap zones, or only activate this effect if you have no cards in hand, or only activate this effect if you control no special summoned monsters. You could maybe incorperate new traps that extend the number of sets but not summons in a turn. You might even be able to have auto flip effects trigger based on proactive actions the player takes like drawing a card, destroying a card, or the flipping of another monster. Field or continuous spells that tick up the effect number on flip cards by 1 allowing you to reach requirments easier. With #4 effects being like, negate the card or effect that targets this card, while also getting the other effects listed on the card like, gain life, draw a card and discard, and return a card to opponents hand. The level 4 or level 5 flip effects being huge payoffs like returning monsters from grave, or nontargeted theft of an opponents boss monster by gaining control of your oppoents monster with the highest total combined stats. There's a lot of other ideas I have for this like your cards taking account of the entire board including your opponents monsters, with some effects changing their feild positions to be, attack, defense, or face down being the strongest. One final thought being that you could change the way some flip monsters become flipped summoned, having some of them flip into defense mode instead of attack mode. I genuinely wanna design a whole archtype off of this and call it "Cascadia" or something (if that's not already a name) because I love flip monsters a lot and wish they didn't fall so hard out of meta.

You should do flip effects on non flip monsters like Stealth bird burn decks

i remember my lgs during early xyz era had a lot of gravekeeper decks running around and spy was actually really good AGAINST them because it was a 2500 wall if they had necro in play and they really struggled to get around that. then you got your utopia or whatever on your next turn

TBH they can't be called failed in any sense, they have fallen out of favor but if a card type dominates in it's own time should be called a successful card type, kinda weird to call it failed (Edit: FYI if every card type is failed unless it is meta right now then most are failed and qualifying the flip decks that do use it [subterrors and shaddolls] as not relying on it is disingenuous because you can take out most types of cards that way, it just feels clickbaity way more than usual when you could just call it Flip Monsters Rise and Fall - Cards and Mechanics)

@thomasfleming8131

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, I get what he's talking about, but listing it under the "failed mechancis" header is misleading at best.

@Rurike

Жыл бұрын

I would say the question is whether those decks succeeded in part because of that mechanic or if the arctype was just strong in spite of it. With how absurd many flip effects are allowed to be while still seeing very little play i think its still fair to say its more a detriment then a benefit

@IndexInvestingWithCole

Жыл бұрын

@@Rurike that’s like saying trap cards are a failed mechanic because if they were quick play spells they would be better

@Rurike

Жыл бұрын

@IndexInvestingWithCole i mean not really. For one in essence, flip monsters are even slower then traps but also Flip effects have more weaknesses then just being slow

@traincore1955

Жыл бұрын

Imagine if Fiber Jar and Cyber Jar were unlimited Duel logs wouldn't be calling the mechanic failed KEK

I liked Equipment back in the day. Slapping an Axe of Despair on your 7 Colored Fish to beat over Summoned Skull has to be one of the most defining memories of caveman yugioh

@QuasarEE

Жыл бұрын

Getting Great Maju Garzett to 6000 ATK with United We Stand.

The problem with flips is that they have printed like 2 good flips since DM-GX era, those being the shaddolls which are good because of everything except the fact they have flip effects, and guru, the only good flip monster they have printed that actually uses the flip effect and guru is only good because of how much subterror support they made before printing guru when konami really wanted subterrors to be good, mainly hidden city and subterrors pretty good traps A lot of flips read like they are gamebreaking but they always have one of 2 problems (usually both and I’m not talking about how they are slow, plenty of traps see play and they are just as slow as flips are) that stop them from seeing play First problem is obviously, their effects aren’t strong enough compared to other available cards to warrant playing an inherently slower cards, you could play ryko or his retrain or you could play any other mill card which are just as good (usually better) and don’t have the inherent speed problem flips have, and the second problem with flips is the fact they are too resource dependent, to use flip monsters you have to get them face down on the field, this will most likely be done by setting them from your hand and taking your normal or occasionally, by using an effect to set them from somewhere else, the problem is usually setting them from somewhere else is archetypal because konami just forgot how to make non-archetypal cards so if their are even flips in that archetype they aren’t guaranteed to be good so you will really only ever set them from your hand taking your normal, this is bad, this means a lot of non-archetypal flips and even some archetypal flips compete with better openers in that archetype or the few non-archetypal staple monsters that still exist and you actually play because you can use them as monsters like Aleister or something, also because you set them and didn’t summon them, you need to either wait for your opponent to do something that flips them up during their turn, which is completely out of your control and at this point in yugioh, it is far more likely for your opponent to remove them with something that doesn’t flip them, like for example, almost every piece of removal that has been released in the past 10 years or they might just ignore it completely and do their full combo which likely result in your flip monster being walked over, it’s effect activating and because flips are underpowered, not saving you from your opponents full board of monsters about to kill you, if you somehow get to turn 2 and your opponent hasn’t removed your flip monster or put up negates and/or floodgates that stop your flips from activating, then congratulations, you can flip face up your monster and activate it’s effect which again, likely won’t save you from the fact that your opponent probably spent that one turn you have them comboing off Really the main problem with flips is that flips as a mechanic are archaic to say the least, they are inherently slower that other effects unless you mitigate that by filling your decks with cards that can flip them up faster and more consistently which takes up space you could have used on more combo pieces making your deck more consistent, engines to let your deck do things it couldn’t normally or staples that cover your deck’s weaknesses but instead your wasting 3 spots on book of taiyuo to activate one cards effects that you will probably also need to have 3 copies of, that’s 6 slots you could have spent on ash, nibiru, dpe, more copies of essential combo pieces and pretty much anything else that will impact the game faster than flips will and most of the time, have just as good and more often than not better effects than the flip monsters you choose to include, they are a remnant of the (relatively speaking) slow, resource and control focused game that Yu-Gi-Oh used to be where you could get way with playing a card that won’t help you until your next turn, they are like traps in a way but at least you can set as many traps as you want and at least you have control over when they activate during your opponent’s turn, flips take every downside of traps ( can’t be used immediately and your opponent usually knows it’s a trap if you bothered setting something) and every downside of monsters (usually do nothing on your opponents turn, can be walked over fairly easily by other monsters and monster removal is the most common type of removal in the game, only one per turn outside of effects) and jam them into one card and usually it’s effects wouldn’t even be good enough to see play if it was just a trap or just a monster

I only ever use two of them in my deck and they're insects, I have to rely on regular Man-Eater Bug until I can get the better retrain and maybe even Galactic Kuriboh if it's any better than Rainbow Kuriboh.

Like how Gemini's got catalyst field flip monsters might need something similar to set multiple monsters at once.

I hope this guy doesn’t run out of ideas. He’s amazing with these videos.

they could make a rule change that face down monsters get flipped when they are being destroyed or banished by effect, unless the effect tells you they are being destroyed face down. that way it would be hard to get rid if flip monsters without triggering its effect.

Flip monsters just need a generic searcher or a cool field spell that makes set monsters non-destroyable or something. I know that won't save them, but it would be neat.

@devinderflinger

Жыл бұрын

Technically, lord of the heavenly prison can protect set monsters as well. The krawler field spell and hidden city are also insane for flips as well in their respective archetype strategy.

@williamdrum9899

Жыл бұрын

I don't know if that would be enough, since you can't vomit your entire deck into play with set monsters

@Jyxero

Жыл бұрын

Flips have a searcher, but is another flip (Tindangle Jhrelth) Heavily also works from both sides

@snes90

Жыл бұрын

Flips also need help generating bodies on your field. Krawlers, when removed by card effect, generate two Krawlers from your deck which is cool. But Krawlers still (competitively) suck, so what do I know. 😅

Using the Krawlers or subterror engine with most of these cards works out pretty well.

You forgot about the most powerful flip archetype, princess prediction can ss any flip monster during ep and with the latest new ritual card and the lvl 9 giving protection

I think an interesting idea would be a set of flip monsters or maybe a field card that made every flip card thag was removed from play just immediately brought back to the field. That way they keep their slow pace but are more resilient

I hope we have a gimmick flip deck when tarotreith and prediction princess support comes in MD

If you want improve Flip monsters, I think you need to make them work more like Trap Monsters. Either give them more effects like Deus X-Krawler, that let the cards flip themselves, or maybe make some that work like Artifacts, and have them be set as traps you can activate.

@nunyabiznes33

Жыл бұрын

Yeah being able to flip up and down by themselves, during either player's turn would be nice.

Here’s my idea for Flip Monster support Inverse Arena Field Spell When this card is activated: You can Special Summon 1 Flip monster from your hand or Deck in face-down defense position. (This monster cannot be flipped face-up this turn.) During either player’s turn: you can Set 1 monster immediately after this effect resolves. You can only use each effect of “Inverse Arena” once per turn.

@youtubeuniversity3638

Жыл бұрын

Special Summon face down is known as Special Set in a few cards, might be good to use here.

@9Destra

Жыл бұрын

@@youtubeuniversity3638 Modern PSCT specifically says “in face-down Defense Position”

If I were to make a card to give Flip Monsters of all sorts an edge for the foreseeable future: _Flipping The (Winged-Beast)_ Counter Trap _Once per duel, If your opponent would remove any number of monsters you control from the field (by battle or card effect), You can instead Tribute any number of monsters from your hand or field, then normal or special summon facedown any number of Flip-Monsters from your hand or deck who’s combined ATK/DEF is equal or less then the combined ATK/DEF of the tributed monsters. If this set card is activated, you can also tribute any number of spell/trap cards from your hand or field: Set facedown an equal number of normal or continuous spell/trap cards from your hand or deck onto your field._

Flips are in a way like *5+ XYZ summons. They take some other card to smooth out the process enough to make them viable, like how we have Rank-Up spells to leverage *4's into something with even more OOMPH without the hassle of Normal summoning each needed part or needing pendulum support.

I like aroma jar, it's fun in aroma decks!

I get how in modern they are not good but thats still not worth calling them a failed mechanic

@kyaksachan502

Жыл бұрын

I agree, but I think just the creator sees no point in making another series which probably wouldn't have much content so he just pushes them all together.

A good argument into bringing back Cyber Jar.

An idea for a video I think would be pretty interesting (I don't think you've done it yet?) is seeing what the most competitively viable deck you could built using ONLY banned cards. I can't tell if only banned cards would either have no synergy (since they usually ban only one or two pieces of a combo) or if they'd have the potential to make one of the most broken decks ever.

Umm... I use mimicking man eater bug in all kids a decks.. sure surprises those tear deck's!! 😆😊 It's actually in the regionals right now.. good flip effect lol

I actually use a couple flip monsters in Duel Links and they have their benefits. I use Man-Eater Bug & Gale Lizard because they can not only be a shield but also either destroy a monster or send it back to the hand. So if you have two monsters and I only one, you won’t be getting to my life points. They’re a good stall

I think fiber jar can come off the list, what with the new lp rules and stuff. Also with the way banishing works i.e: desires, prosperity and the litany of G.Y effects that people use, less to recover if a fiber jar gets its effect going. Or they could errata it to banish itself when it resolves.

Prediction Princess is one of my favorite archetypes because it merges the two worst monster summoning mechanics into one bad but funny deck.

They need to print some Flip Monsters with effects that are busted out the ass, cause the mechanic has a great deck to be played in Prediction Princess.

There should be conditions that allow flips to flip outside of your turn or the battle phase. Think subterror final battle but on an entire archetype. They would have to have more effects to really be potent, but Konami hasn't even tried to make something cool/broken with flip effects it seems

I propose a rule change where if a set card is targeted by card effect it is flipped face up before that effect resolves.

Coverage of Chaos or other Met-Archetypes might be fun

Thnxs for the info but it's been so many years last time I've played the last cards I've got was the Dark Magician Valkyrie and when the God Cards were til for show instead be playable

Mister Logs, I'd like you to know the existence of prediction princess. Might not be good, but I'm having a ton of fun playing it online

I had heard of Shadolls by name only but I have never played them. I have played Subterrors, Xkrawlers so I sorta feel like I really enjoy flip effects. This is only in Duel Links tho where a lot of cards are not in the game like Subterror Guru, Temptress or Hidden City. But when I started the video and seen how they were dead I was thinking what if it punished the opponent for banishing/sending to the graveyard if the flip monster doesn't get its affect off. Maybe something where the opponent realizes it's better to let them get their effects off compared to getting rid of them because if they get rid of the flip monster it becomes much harder to deal with.

Give them a semi-searchable (field spell? Or tie it to an archetype by name so that archetype can search it but keep its effect generic so it can be splashed?) continuous effect replacer (change 1 effect per turn to "flip all face-up monsters face-down and all face-down monsters face-up", kinda like dark world forces discards). You just said their biggest weakness is getting removed while set, so an effect that can trigger a field full of effects while also breaking their main weakness once per turn seems pretty good. Another possibility is one that's been suggested on other videos: change the rules so flip monsters (as in, only ones with the "flip" monster type) act as traps (i.e. can flip on opponent's turn).

As to the actual topic of the video, as a "Yugi boomer" that recently returned to the game thanks to Master Duel, it's sad to see how Flip monsters have fallen out of relevancy, even if I understand why. As an aside, I dread Pendulums might be on route to suffer the same fate, given the paltry support they have gotten from Konami recently, not to mention their inherent mechanic making it difficult to splash non-engine cards. They are my favorite of the summoning mechanics introduced after the Synchro era.

@nihildwo4874

Жыл бұрын

i mean it is funny, because the typical yugiboomer response is "pendulum ruined yugioh"

@TrollCapAmerica

Жыл бұрын

@@nihildwo4874 Thats not true. it was ruined in late XYZ when they specifically threw balance out to try and get people to pay for broken archtype after broken archtype until you reach an age where immune to card effect 4 K attack omni-negateing monsters summoned with a one card combo are as common as a 1800 beater in 2004.Pendulum were just next and got all the hate even though Link is far more braindead

@Evan_Schaefering

Жыл бұрын

@@TrollCapAmerica Yugioh has been "ruined" from the very beginning in my opinion. It is, at it's core, a poorly designed mess of a card game. It suffers from rules that were barely functional in 1999, let alone after 20 years of intense powercreep. The lack of rotating sets, and/or Konami's greed/incompetence, created the environment for the rampant powercreep and balance issues, which are nothing recent by the way. Even from the very earliest days of the game Konami powercrept the game incredibly fast. The meta went from the incredibly simple Summoned Skull Beatdown to something complex like GOAT Control in the matter of like 3 years. The game still manages to be fun a lot of the time, largely in spite of itself, but there isn't really a single point where the game got ruined.

agree FLIP monsters really need a support at least something like that Hidden City so FLIP effect can be activated immediately

an entire video about flip monsters and you never mentioned pacman, pure advantage camel needs to be respected

I think two things would really help drag Flip Monsters. 1. Setting a monster does not take up your normal summon, allowing you to more easily flood the board. 2. Flip effects instead work like MTG 'Kicker' effects where the card has the effect as is but if the kicker cost is paid (in this case by setting the monster and later flipping it) then the original effect is empowered.