The pilot claimed to be panicked, but demonstrated to be sharp and capable of dealing with a rough situation. It's hard enough to have a genuine emergency but even harder with all the suggestions/chatter.

@747-pilot

6 күн бұрын

She probably was terribly panicked, but I suppose that was her way of “saying it out loud”, acknowledging the fact, and then telling herself to calm down and focus on getting the aircraft to the ground! Personally, I think that was a great call, especially for a student pilot!

@davegrundgeiger9063

6 күн бұрын

​@@747-pilot Absolutely agreed. That bit about panicking was a GREAT radio call. She succinctly communicated the cockpit situation, giving the controller the opportunity to account for her mental state. (edit) And now that I finished listening to it... ALL of her radio work in this recording is top notch!

I am happy she is alive. I am ALWAYS looking for a spot to land.

The best is she is okay! I think she did a incredible job at her current stage in training. She GREW so much as a pilot and can you imagine the awesome critical experience she gained..... WOW!

It needs to be stressed that your aiming point for an engine out landing should not be at the end of the runway like normal landings. Aim ⅓ or ½ way up the runway in case you misjudge your airspeed. You can always slip if needed. My instructor taught me to do an engine out landing every third landing. Practice prevents panic.

@erickborling1302

6 күн бұрын

With the engine out and after obtaining best glide, your aiming point is basically whatever part of the ground is coming straight at you (not moving left/right/up or down). I always teach the students this scenario and we practice it, after the student really understands the glide ratio and how far they can go from any given altitude agl. It's also great to practice it in a sim, even if that sim is Google Earth and you're flying the F-16. With that foreknowledge the emergency pilot can get real refined about how to use the flaps, slips, and turning the right number of times so their circle intersects the ground on the ideal course to the "field."

@calburnIII

6 күн бұрын

Back in the winter of 72-73 when I was a student, my instructor did engine-outs literally every lesson, and sometimes several in a lesson. It used to drive me nuts, and when I complained, he calmly said, “someday you’ll thank me, Cary”. Well, in the intervening 51+ years, I’ve had two occasions to thank him for those repetitive and frankly annoying practices. The first was a temporary engine failure in the clouds in a Mooney 231, which turned out to be impact ice that clogged the air intake. I immediately declared an emergency and asked for vectors to Pueblo, CO, which was “maybe” doable according to the DME, but the weather at PUB was about 300 and a mile, so it would have been a frightening experience-both ILS runways were essentially perpendicular to our route of flight (this was before GPS RNAV). Fortunately after losing about 1600’, I got the engine going again by pulling the manual knob for alternate air. The second was a total engine failure at low altitude-my new-to-me Cessna P172D had thrown a rod through the top of the engine case. I was only at about 1000’ AGL, so although I declared an emergency, it was on the nearest airport Unicom frequency-I was too busy flying the airplane to change frequencies. Without going into more detail, I did everything the way I was trained many years before, cleared some power lines, and landed in a field, with no damage to the airplane-best soft field landing I’d ever made without power. My current instructor is a task master, so that every engine out scenario during flight reviews has been to a landing. He’s picked a place, he knows my ability, and he knows my airplane, too. So far, I’ve always found the place he picked and made a suitable landing there. A couple of times, it meant a full flap slip to avoid overshooting, and a couple of other times, it meant pulling the prop knob all the way out to make the prop coarse to reduce drag. You’re definitely right-knowing how without practicing how isn’t good enough. Both my original instructor 51 years ago and my current instructor teach to immediately head for the intended place to land-no fiddling around trying to get things going. If that’s on downwind, immediately turn toward the runway. If that’s a ranch strip, immediately turn toward it. If that’s a field, turn toward it. Aviate, navigate, communicate. No wasting time flying the radio.

@jimallen8186

6 күн бұрын

I was doing a glider add-on and one of the debrief points the DPE made was that he could tell who the jet guys were because we all aimed to use all the runway; he was making the same point about wanting margin for the inadequate side not just the braking side. Though with the gliders you can push spoiler in to float a little more. As for airspeed, hopefully you can get an AOA. Best no wind glide is an AOA, not an airspeed. Now, having said this, some platforms have additional considerations like having adequate airflow to run a RAT (ram air turbine for hydraulics and/or electrics) or for preserving energy to squat a jet and eject. These platforms may fly engine out significantly faster than airframe best glide and actually need to aim well shy of landing as they’re going to float a lot. Consider the Space Shuttle, it landed engine out, and it had its aim point well shy of the runway. As for normal landings, why aim at the end of the runway except for truly short field? Same concern for margins applies. And you could have an added element in larger aircraft with judging seat position and associated sight line versus wheel touchdown point being rather far apart.

Always have an engine failure plan. In cruise that's my main activity, my emergency checklist is out, and I'm monitoring my engine, nearest airports, and scanning for off airport landing spots when outside of glide range of a field. In my opinion, instructors don't teach these habits enough.

Awesome coverage and expert thoughts on this accident. Thanks for helping make the aviation community safer, Jason. Excellent point of view.

"Im not trying to throw this controller under the bus, but Im going to throw this controller undwr the bus."

@triboarder06

4 күн бұрын

seriously... if that's all you took away from this there are some issues.

“Judy” is a wonderful word. It is defined abbreviated communication within military aviation for “shut-up” and is intended for the context of I need my capacity inside my cockpit to ‘kill the snakes.’

What a great learning tool. Your reaction to vid was awesome. As a pilot I hope that I learn more knowledge incase this happens to me one day. Thank You!

So glad she is ok. Hopefully she has not been scared off from continuing with her flying. Cheers.

I love this!! My passion was always to be a pilot!!! I took 7 lessons but had to stop them. It’s been over a year and I haven’t went back for fear of this exact video but u explained it so well all off it clicked/resonated with me. You just inspired me to give it another try ❤

@747-pilot

6 күн бұрын

Go ahead and do it! I will be cheering for you! You have one life to live, and there is nothing that can describe the feeling of soaring like a bird above the earth! Also remember that an engine failure is still a VERY rare event. So don’t let that discourage you from completing your flight training! Most general aviation accidents (around 85% to 90% - can’t recall the exact number), are actually due to pilot error!

As always great information, keep up the strong work!

I had lunch in Auburn today and I'm pretty sure I saw you there with a student. I wanted to say hello but didn't want to interrupt so I thought I'd just comment here. Thank you so much for content, love your channel. Your videos always inspire me to be a safer pilot.

“At your right two o’clock” is a vector.

@TheFinerPoints

5 күн бұрын

Kinda sorta

I think the controller did absolutely fine, she mentioned she was panicking. So keeping her engaged and focused is important. Of course if on the other hand she would have been overloaded like maybe airline pilots running checklists it may be better to only give minimum inputs.

I talk to the Bradley guys all the time and they have been very good. I think student and ATC did a good job.

I want to be ready ! Thank you for your precious content 👍✈️

I think your analysis makes total sense. Thanks so much

Excellent breakdown with some key take away points. Must be those Finer points 😝. Thanks for the explanation. I will say though. Any student should understand the runway heading description if they are in the air soloing they should know what one seven three five means but he could have added a few key words like runway headings such and such and even throw in the general direction N/S like you said.

Please teach new pilots to solve the landing problem with the radio off. This will save their life.

Great debrief! Great video!

She did amazing

Thanks for posting, I actually quit taking lessons years ago due to the arrogance of the Chief Flight Instructor at my Aero Club when my instructor left to take a job with an airline. I was taught to constantly scan and pick a place to land in case of emergency. When you pass over the location, scan and pick the next. The chief instructor said you NEVER land anywhere except for a paved runway. He said in an engine out situation you gain altitude and fly around looking for a runway. He actually failed me on a check ride because I picked a flat smooth field and spiraled down and setup to land. He then took controls, added power and climbed several thousand feet looking for a runway, he finally settled on a narrow tree lined very short driveway which was many miles behind us. I share this because I believe there are still arrogant instructors out there teaching crap like this.

@user-lq7hf1ww3k

18 сағат бұрын

You are right. Trying to climb with a bad engine? Tha is the main cause of stalls with partial engine power. Most times you kill the speed instead of climbing. Go to another flight school and call the FAA too. Dont be a coward now and dont. There are some BS guys there. Some are not real CFI's either. They use other persons documents. Seen crooks in flight schools a lot..

This student pilot has a wonderfully clear, quick radio voice. It’s really great! (I’m kind of jealous.) I hope her accident doesn’t put her off flying. This incident certainly shows the value of having a Garmin system with SmartGlide. Much of the communication and guesswork could have been eliminated.

She done well!!

Great video.

All the way to the ground is a great tip! Too many climb away at 500 feet

This is why I teach my student pilots the Power Off 180 to a landing. Most instructors teach only the process as a student pilot but never actually take it to a landing. She did great otherwise and has posted updates on TikTok.

@erickborling1302

6 күн бұрын

The steep spiral is also an incredibly useful maneuver. It's a good idea for the CFI to have some known empty roads/fields in the practice area where you and the student can take this practice down to 500' agl, and if the practice emergency becomes a real emergency, you're already good thanks to the abandoned road or farm road or whatever you got.

One thing my instructor thought me was to say 3 Fs before the may day call. It calms you down and slows down the mayday part. He stressed that the controller is also going to panic a bit too and you can definitely hear that here. I feel the controller heard the pilot say she was a little panic'd and tried to help talk to her. Not all was useful or good, and hindsight is always better, but unlike us pilots, controllers can't really do many engine out drills.

I’ve played through engine out in a PC sim. (Started with very little fuel, then didn’t look at the gauge so I’d get a surprise engine out randomly at some point.) I’ve made the classic screw up of gliding to an airport then screwing up the approach and coming up short of the runway. I now know to get above the runway and gently spiral down. Never go away from the airport.

I think this student did an EXCELLENT job and glad she's ok. Other pilot did good too. Biggest error here was on the controllers part for sure. My thought is to always aim no closer than 1/3 runway length past the threshold... much better to land and run off the other end rather than coming up short. Josh, your words are a great lesson for everyone... soon as your mayday call comes out of your mouth ask for vectors at the same time if that's what you need.

7:46 I'm a virtural Pilot and avation fan both of nearly 30 years and I thought he meant length... Like "can you land on this long of runway?" Instead of the runway number which to my knowledge and I could be very wrong but normally only given out as a ATC as a single up to 3 diget number for what end to land on not using it for oretation.

Very critical of ATC, needlessly so. They're already overworked and now they're being criticized for not landing the pilot's airplane for them This controller did such an amazing job with vectors, pointing out where airfield was and reminding the student to trim for best glide I notice absolutely no criticism for the CFI who signed her off or the flight school that didn't care to maintain the damn airplane properly

@TheFinerPoints

5 күн бұрын

It’s a good point about the CFI, I agree. But there’s no way of student pilot who declared an emergency should have to ask for a heading to the closest airport.

@jwald6795

4 күн бұрын

@@TheFinerPoints He gave her a heading. Two O'clock. I'm sure she knows what Two O'clock and five miles mean.

Aside from the landing she did fine and didn't sound especially panicked which is what I would be.

I don’t understand why the ATC doesn’t have a database and a button push to find the nearest emergency field for the aircraft that is calling Mayday ? Seriously, how hard would it be to use the squawk code co-ordinates and then highlight the aircraft calling emergency Mayday and push a “find emergency landing site” ? We have most of the world mapped at this point. It’s just a simple database search. Actually this could be done live for all aircraft at all times. Button push. If anyone knows the s/w developers of ATC systems, please reach out to them!

Hey, I recognize her voice I’ve been in the pattern at Poughkeepsie before with her. Her voices in one of my videos.

This sounds like a flight school that insists on paper charts and no GPS proficiency until after PPL.

I wish the controler had said it is a grass strip early on and made sure she was looking for a grass strip not a big airport.

What are the procedures when flying above clouds or at night in terms of always having an emergency landing spot in view?

@marcrodstein1745

Күн бұрын

In that case use your gps, iPad or tablet moving map to identify the nearest airport on a continuous basis. Fly higher than normal to increase potential glide distance. Instead of a straight line, vary your course to keep within gliding distance of potential landing areas such as highways, fields or valleys, especially in mountainous areas.

She got there but didnt know how to set up over it. That is a critical skill. If you are directly over the field and too high, not everyone knows to try another circle or half circle.

On my discovery flight, I was very comfortable flying the plane due to around 15 years of home simming experience. My CFI decided I was ready for a simulated engine failure, briefed me and got my consent, and pulled the throttle. I chose a landing field about two miles away to which he asked if I was sure it was the best spot to land. I replied that yes, it looked like the flattest area near our location. My CFI then asked me to bank left and look straight down out of the side window… at which point I realized Rio Vista airport was directly beneath us. 😂 After that “DOI” moment, I was able to successfully maneuver for a simulated emergency landing and my CFI explained that while the field probably would have also been fine I should always be fully aware of my position and environment. Invaluable lesson on my discovery flight! Glad this pilot survived. When the controller asked if she was able to maintain altitude and she responded with her tail number I could easily see how he may have taken that as an “affirmative” response, at which point he may have tried to get her over to an airport with a paved runway assuming she could maintain altitude as a student pilot, versus trying to have her perform a soft field landing at a grass field. I agree that the closer airport should have been the better choice regardless, but just offering an opinion on a potential thought process.

In my flying club, no one solo's until they have passed the written. You have no business being PIC, until you understand the terminology and procedures required to do so.

@apilotspersective

10 сағат бұрын

The pre-solo written is required by FAR

@ConvairDart106

4 сағат бұрын

@@apilotspersective I thought so, but I took my written way back when Loran C was the hot new NavAid.

Engine failure in flight is scary, but survivable. Parachutes help. N121YT.

I suspect she wasn't expecting a grass strip and that's why she was having trouble identifying it at first.

Would be interesting to know if she was using a tool like foreflight during her cross country. This would have told her where the nearest airport is. Counting on ATC to do anything except get rescue to you when you get on the ground is a mistake. Anyone know what caused the engine failure?

@chicharonbuyakyak

6 күн бұрын

Yes she has foreflight. It's provided by the school

@erickborling1302

6 күн бұрын

@@chicharonbuyakyak I'm troubled that a student pilot is navigating XC using foreflight. At this stage of training navigation should be pilotage, onboard VOR equipment, dead reckoning, pencil and paper and an E6B.

@chicharonbuyakyak

6 күн бұрын

She has all of that. We are trained by the school with all of those prior to dual or solo xc

@erickborling1302

6 күн бұрын

There was substantial damage to the aircraft, so the NTSB will eventually post the results of an investigation. If there was no accident with the forced landing, the only way you'd know is through the grapevine.

If a controller can't talk the way a pilot needs to think, he needs to find someone else to talk instead. Landing in the trees demonstrates ignorance about energy management and spatial awareness. She deserved better. Help her identify the field faster, setup speed and base better.

You are being really unfair to that controller, IMO. I think everyone did about as well as can be expected under the circumstances. The first call from the student was for engine trouble, the call for engine failure was the second call after Mayday. Perfectly fair for the controller to ask if she can make the airport, I am not sure if you expect them to know the glide range for all planes or you think the closes grass strip is the best option for controllers whenever they here a mayday or maybe something different. I guess he could have offered multiple options, but that likely would just lead to more confusion. I have only been a PPL student pilot once (obviously) , but before I solo'ed I knew what runway numbers meant, not sure how I would judge my takeoff crosswind minimums or wind in general without knowing that fact. I would go so far as to say it would be irresponsible to send a student up by themselves that did not have this information. She had 2200 feet when she made that field, she just did not see it, tough spot for anyone to be in trying to land on an unfamiliar grass strip like that under pressure.

@jwald6795

4 күн бұрын

a 2000 foot grass strip can be very hard to recognize even when your not having an emergency.

I think if I was the pilot of 12180 I would have quickly landed to try and help her.

@kmstaff7

6 күн бұрын

Agreed, I would have landed and provided assistance until the first responders arrived and took over the scene.

@flyer617

6 күн бұрын

I would have. If I commit to help, I will do what's necessary.

I got to think. Maybe this is a seasoned ATC, and when things get urgent he needs to acclimate to the particular situation, but he is fighting primacy, which in the back of his mind initially distracts him, that "usually some thrust remains". It was the 4:47 "... student pilot solo lost *an* engine" that prompted me to think that. To his credit, it appears from the recording (unless it was edited for silence) that the time from "negative, the engine is off" to "Waterbury is just behind you" is very prompt. Also consider, if the situation had been that the pilot estimated to be able to reach Robertson, it could have been a major disservice to suggest a 2000ft runway behind her. In that case it would be best to get the pilot's assessment of the situation first. I guess the tasks for pilot and ATC were just difficult right from the get-go.

@ikkinwithattitude

5 күн бұрын

I wonder if part of it is that the controller subconsciously rejected the idea that such a bad option was the best option. Waterbury is short, surrounded by tall trees, on top of a hill, doesn't have a silhouette that looks like a normal airport or weather reporting, might have adverse surface conditions, and is out in the middle of nowhere with limited resources in the likely case of injuries due to a suboptimal landing/runway overrun. While Waterbury being an airport gives it better clearance guarantees and avoids property damage, it might not necessarily be a better option than a farmer's field of sufficient size... which also might be something else to consider from the student's perspective (or even from the perspective of the controller offering suggestions).

@Rodhern

5 күн бұрын

@@ikkinwithattitude Spot on! At the time I don't think the controller knew (or even could know) that this was the kind of option to look for. For all we know, he may well have looked but held his tongue until better informed.

Did she stall it on final ? Yes or not. Looks like it.

Pilots should know all the time where the closest airport is. What if you’re not talking to ATC

After on course to nearest airport The controller should have offered her to get on best glide, stabilize, then ask if the prop is windmilling, if yes then. switch tanks, full rich mixture, fuel pump on and try for a restart. CFI's this should be taught "before solo". She had 5000' to work things out, was in a panic mindset, and needed this kind of "action-prompting" help. Best glide towards a landing area, stabilize, work viable options out. If the engine wasn't seized then the above, If the engine is seized then fuel off, fuel pump off. Also when power off training do it with one notch of flaps to assimilate a "real world" non-idling engine glide slope. Glad she was safe.

@erickborling1302

6 күн бұрын

That's nice in principle but not all planes would have the same engine failure checklist. So... could be real bad for a controller to instruct for an unfamiliar airplane. Student likely had the checklist anyway. The panic factor was (I bet) due to the lack of ideal fields or trouble choosing one, not to mention inexperience. Even with experience it can get real scary -- that green field could be muddy! One of my fave students was a farmer and soil-science expert. He really knew what a good field looked like.

@robertshaver4432

6 күн бұрын

@@erickborling1302 I disagree. a solo student will be in a trainer aircraft. Name one trainer aircraft that wouldn't start in using that technique. Just the mention of the such would be a prompt to get to the re-start checklist. She needed prompts, Prompts should have been given "for a student pilot". I'll bet she didn't even try to restart... Wanna bet? at 5000ft she had ample time but wasn't prompted to her checklists.

@stephenthompson3418

6 күн бұрын

Carb heat too if relevant here. That's hard to train for until it happens. When it does, the engine can run worse for a while as the ice melts which may make one want to turn it off even though it's the right thing to do if one hasn't experienced it before.

@sqwk2559

6 күн бұрын

Robert, you should delete than nonsense post.

@robertshaver4432

6 күн бұрын

@@sqwk2559 Not

Jason why do we need ATC TO GIVE US A VECTOR to an airport? The IPad or GPS can give it to you with a punch of a button. Make that part of your engine out memory items. Thoughts please.❤🇺🇸👍🙏🏻😀 love your videos Jason.

@erickborling1302

6 күн бұрын

You don't want private pilot applicants using iPads (that comes later). The idea of using "all available resources" would suggest it's better to have ATC do that work for you while your workload is high. On t'uther hand it is desirable to teach the student the very fast and easy "NRST" (nearest) function with the onboard GPS (if there is one).

@user-iw3mr2lv6f

6 күн бұрын

@@erickborling1302 long time pilot. I was surprised that students don’t use I Pad. My comment was meant to save time and immediately head towards a runway. It only adds 3 sec to my engine out routine. Takes out the controller part of the equation. My priority fly the plane then communicate. I appreciate your thoughts. 😊 ❤️🇺🇸🛫🙏🏻

@karlw7764

5 күн бұрын

I agree every student pilot should know an easy and reliable way to immediately locate the nearest airfield, using whatever tool they have. My little Garmin Aera 660 has NRST and you just hit DIRECT and it gives you the line to follow.

she declared mayday with engine issue, engine failure was later, big airport with paved runway make sense, but with that should be information on closest runway too, right after talking about engine issue, even before mayday.

Can we like require all General Aviation pilots who want to fly a big heavy metal plane, to go to Glider School? Glider pilots land their plane just about every single time with no engine at all... and have no problem doing so. On an airplane, you are suppose to fly the wing, not the engine. If you got wings, there is no excuse for you panicing. Now, I'm a quadcopter pilot, we fly the engine 100% of the time, because there are no wings, it's all engine. General aviation pilots I think are the worst pilots ever... they have to learn all this other rubbish navigating air space, and never learn to fly the play beyond take off, landing, and holding the wings straight. And this is 100% the FAA's fault for carving up maps with a million lines and borders and rules. Class D airspace. WTF? It's all air. There are no lines in the sky.