One summer later, I have finally been able to redo this shootout using one lens for every camera tested, making for a much more relevant comparison. You can check that video out here: kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZoOqtNCfgtzRp6w.html I'll leave this video up for reference and as an explanation of my method. Thanks to everyone for checking out these videos!

Buying a used Canon 6D and a wide prime lens would be my advice.

I would watch more of these! Amazing video. It helped with so many questions I had.

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

Thanks! I may have to do some more videos in this vein.

I bought a used astromodified Canon 700D (Rebel T5i). The effect of the modification was interesting to test, but the limitations of the sensor are quickly revealed when you start stacking. It is taking on dust now 😉 … fun video, thanks!

Would have been interesting to see how a Pentax with Astrotracer would compare.

Great presentation! Greetings from Hungary!

Well done video. you def need more subscribers. Rootin for yuh

@DesmondButler

9 ай бұрын

Thanks, man

With the whole world going into a recession , showing what can be done with used, "older" gear is incredibly useful. Not everyone has $3k to drop on an RF lens right now. The A6500 for $600 used is a PHENOMENAL deal, esp once paired with a quality 3rd party lens.

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

Well said. And while I have access to the R6 whenever I want, I honestly prefer the portability of the A6500 in a lot of cases. The stabilization is noticeably better as well. You do not have to break the bank to catch shots that you'll love.

It would be great to see how a new canon R8 would do with astrophotography!? Just curious how the shutter on this model will do? I have a 6D with 14mm Rokinon lens. My 60D wasn’t swift with star photography… Tricky thing is getting the focus dialed for me? Nice helpful video!!

@RLRPhotography

Жыл бұрын

The R8 has the same sensor as the R6 Mark II. If you go with that, it’s about 1K less on cost than the R6. So getting a good lens or going with the 16mm f/2.8 RF lens, then you’d have great captures for astrophotography landscapes with a fast lens.

I had a canon 1100D (rebel T3 „without the i“) it got unbelievably grainy as soon as the iso exceeded 400 but I was genuinely surprised that it got considerably better after stacking 8 or 10 pictures. Even a real photographer said that it looks good especially for my gear at the time.

@DesmondButler

8 ай бұрын

Props to you for the perseverance. I think that working with what you have is a big part of learning the craft. Upgrading is so nice after you've been limited, but those limitations can stretch your creativity and really teach you how the devices work fundamentally.

I have the Canon 60Da and EOS Ra. I get great modified Ha photos with both. I use a Williams Obtics Redcat 51 telescope with my cameras. No aberrations at all, and flat field. ❤

@DesmondButler

5 ай бұрын

That looks like a pretty nice astrophotography scope. This video was about shooting wide for Milky Way, but I also did a comparison of nebula shots using a telescope: kzread.info/dash/bejne/rI6Gxc2giqrMk8Y.htmlsi=Tc97Xe7fquSrLmeO Though I'm thinking your scope is probably better for photography than what I used 😅

excellent video!!! What is it called or where can I get the filter for the modified camera so I can take photos in daylight?

@DesmondButler

4 ай бұрын

Important question, but the answer will vary. Depending on the type of astromod you have done on your camera, there are a number of what are called "in-body filters" or "clip-filters" that can be purchased to work in place of the coatings that were removed from your camera's sensor for the modification. For the EOS RP used in my videos, I believe this is the filter shown: www.astrogear.net/products/astronomik-owb-type-3-clip-filter-eos-r-xl

I sold my 6D in favor of an R + and Astro mod and I couldn’t be happier. The 6D was a great camera though, I hated to part with it.

What did you compare the bodies or the lenses, if you want to compare the bodies you have to use identical lenses, eg sigma or rokinon lenses available for each mountigsystem, or using one lens with an adapter for EACH mountingsystem. i miss Pentax in that comparison, if you don't know why then try K1-II , K3-II or K3-III or e.g a K70 with an O-GPS-1 or 2 Module 3 minutes exposures without startrails in 35mm or 50s in 300mm (on my K70). No heavy Startracker with 15-30 minutes setup, just a 30s initialization, put on the tripod and go.

@DesmondButler

11 ай бұрын

I acknowledged the lens concern in the video. Again, I'm not a millionaire, I'm just a guy who had a bunch of cameras one weekend. That being said, I was able to complete a new comparison earlier this year using the same lens, so keep an eye out for that video coming soon. I've had a couple of people mention the Pentax now and how it handles stars. I'm surprised I hadn't come across that information before, but it definitely sounds like something I need to look into. Thanks for that tip.

I would really like to get into astrophotography. I am a beginner photographer and I still have my Canon 600D which I bought in 2012. Should I keep going with that? If so, what kit should I buy for it? I'd like to start with capturing planets in our solar system, the moon, galaxies and nebula. So a bit of everything. I still only have the standard kit lens and I might still have my tripod and intervalometer from when I tried capturing star trails once. I am reading about Skywatchers and Celestrons and EQ mounts and all kinds of stuff I don't have much of a clue about 😅I have a budget to buy some more kit though if I know what I am buying. Would be grateful for any advice. I am open to astromodifying my 600D (if it's recommended to stick with it), but I don't know how.

@DesmondButler

6 ай бұрын

The 600D is the same model featured in this video as the T3i. I did a lot of astrophotography on that camera before moving on, but it was well worth it to upgrade. If you were just getting started, I'd say keep playing around with what you have until the shortcomings drive you to want something better, but if you've already done some Milky Way and you're serious about trying out nebulae and planetary imaging, it would be time to upgrade. In both of those cases you'll need either a star tracking mount with a telephoto lens, or an autotracking telescope with a T-ring adapter. I talk about this a little bit in my Eagle Nebula Shootout video from this year. The 600D is, for the most part, going to be too noisy and too low resolution for those categories. But that doesn't mean you'll have to break the bank. A secondhand mirrorless camera, even at the APS-C size, will give you a huge leap in noise control, and will likely bring 4K video to the table, which is necessary for good planetary imaging. I went to the Sony a6500 after the 600D and loved it (still do), which you can get for under $500 in the used market right now. But there are lots of other great options out there too.

Wow , what’s an Astro mod? That sounds intriguing? I have r6 canon II… is it a software add or hardware? I’m not getting much with my setup at the moment… I have only used canon 24-105mm RF

@DesmondButler

5 ай бұрын

Hey Mr Christianson, I think I remember you trying to learn more about this almost a year ago. I tried to explain this briefly in the video at about the 2:33 mark, but you can also learn more about it in depth here: www.spencerscamera.com/astro-conversions.cfm

Try the EOS Ra!

hey man just wondering here if a sony alpha a350 can do the job its like a camera from 2008 :/ but i got a 200mm lens

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

You could certainly try it out, but it may not produce the results you want given the age of that sensor. With the low megapixel count and low maximum ISO, its going to have a really hard time with details at night. I'd still be curious to see what it could do, but keep my expectations low. For the kind of astrophotography we discuss in the video, a telephoto lens is not ideal though. You'd definitely want a wide lens for exposing the milky way for multiple seconds.

EOS R or Sony a6500? Moving from dslr to mirrorless and these 2 are my top competitors in my pricerange($1500 including lens)

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

That's an interesting head to head. Some will tell you to go with the EOS R, but it really depends on your priorities. The EOS R is a full-frame sensor, while the a6500 is an APS-C or crop-sensor, which means the Canon has a larger surface area. That being said, I can tell you from experience that the a6500 does well at 24 megapixels, and in all my testing the Sony is still better at low light than the stock Canon EOS R. In daylight, you can definitely argue that Canon has the better color science, but the Sony is FAR superior at image stabilization, a major consideration if you ever plan to take pictures or videos handheld. With either camera, you'll most likely want a lens adapter at some point, so I can't really give either an advantage on lens availability, but I do like the image stability in Sony lenses better. I personally wouldn't trade my a6500 for an EOS R, but for people who must have full-frame, I understand why they would.

How much zoom did you used and whith what lens for the moon picture? Thanks for the comparison

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

Great question, but the answer is a little involved. I inherited an astronomy telescope a few years ago and eventually purchased a T-ring adapter for connecting a DSLR. Honestly, with just a basic telescope and a professional camera, you can get some excellent shots. But I still wanted to take it further, so I eventually upgraded to an 8-inch Schmidt-Cassegrain telescope (the focal length equivalent is about 2000mm). Lastly, I began using image stacking software (Registax) to combine detail data from dozens of photos in order to produce the extremely high detail photo you saw at the end of the video. Maybe at some point I'll have to post a quick tutorial on how to do all of that, because it really is a lot simpler than you might think.

@songomis8326

Жыл бұрын

@@DesmondButler i thought the picture was taken with a very expensive camera with a good lens. But now, after your answer, everything makes sense. I think i need to buy a telescope. Thanks for your elaborated answer and time. Greetings from Chile.

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

@@songomis8326 Very happy to have helped! Good luck with capturing your moon shot!

If the exposure is made to 20 seconds, how do you deal with the stars drawing lines because of Earth rotation? P.S. I like images that are less bright, more dark, yet maintains the visual of stars and maybe gases, otherwise image looks washed out.

@DesmondButler

10 ай бұрын

Streaking is dependent on focal length. With a wide lens, you can expose for a longer duration. The images from cameras that capture more light will definitely look more washed out at the raw unedited stage, but those images produce dramatically more dynamic range, which is always the end goal. Once edited, the brighter images will exhibit far more detail in the most difficult to resolve areas like the gas and dust clouds of the Milky Way.

Did you use the EF-S lens on the R and R6? If so, did you put the cameras into APS-C mode?

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

As mentioned in the video, I tried my best to keep everything the same. Of the Canon cameras, only the 6D would not accept the EF-S lens as is, so I used a substitute with a narrower maximum aperture. To your second question, unlike other brands, Canon handles this automatically when it detects the lens type. Of course, this does result in a lower pixel count, but the R models still performed well in this comparison in spite of that. Thanks for the question.

@toddbailey5198

Жыл бұрын

@@DesmondButler Yes the R bodies automatically change to crop mode for the EF-S lens, but the R6 becomes an 8MP and the R becomes 12MP, only 40% of the resolution and you lose the full frame advantage for reduction in noise. I have shot astro with the rebel T7i, 6D, R & R6 and there is no comparison between the rebel crop sensor and the full frames.

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

@@toddbailey5198 Yes, as I already mentioned, pixel count is reduced. This video explores a comparison when using the exact same lens as often as possible given the random selection of camera gear I had access to. I think people can judge for themselves that in spite of the handicap, the Rebel does not hold up to the performance of the mirrorless models. It would certainly be interesting to do a comparison that adapts a full frame lens to the Rebel, but lenses and adapters aren't cheap. Hopefully if I do something like this again in the future, I'll have access to a few more pieces of equipment, at which time I'm sure the point you're making will be more emphasized. Thanks for the input.

@toddbailey5198

Жыл бұрын

@@DesmondButler EF lenses work just fine on the rebel EF-S mount no adapter required. Maybe a couple of cheap rokinon/bower primes with comparable fields of view like the 14mm on the rebel and 24mm on the full frames if the opportunity ever presents itself in the future!

@toddbailey5198

Жыл бұрын

Actually I was just thinking about this and the easiest might be if you could borrow a EF 16-35 f2.8 and shoot the rebel at 16mm and the FF's at 26mm, would be really close for your A6500 with the f2.8 lens as well. Anyway just thoughts, I know it's tons of work to do such a broad comparison. Thanks

Do you have recommendations for Sony lenses?

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

I love that Sony offers a bunch of lenses with OSS for when I'm taking portraits or video, but obviously for astrophotography, stabilization isn't important. The two lenses I use most are the Sony E 16mm F2.8 (colloquially referred to as the "pancake" lens), and the Rokinon 12mm F2.0 NCS CS Ultra Wide for maximum field of view. The large aperture on that Rokinon is really awesome for gathering tons of light at multiple exposure lengths, and you can typically find one used for a very decent price.

Do canon SX40 HS is also good in astrophotography?

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

If it's the best camera you have available to you, then you can probably capture at least something. That specific model suffers from a lot of things that would make it difficult to use for night shots, all of which are directly related to its age. The maximum ISO is pretty low at 3200, and we'd have to assume that means a great deal more noise than modern cameras at that setting. I certainly wouldn't buy that camera in 2023, but if I had it in hand, I might try it out just to see what it can do. Make sure you keep it at the widest focal length, 24mm, and verify that your aperture is locked at f2.7 for the most possible light capture.

What did you use to take that moon shot aside from the a6500 ? I was thinking of getting a celestron 6se and using it in injunction with the 6500. Would you recommend? I'm a beginner

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

Great question! My Celestron NexStar 8SE is just barely too much magnification to get the entire moon in frame when attaching an APS-C Camera like the A6500, so I imagine the 6SE will work perfectly. All you need to do is buy a Sony E mount T-ring adapter, and you're all set!

@AreEff1987

Жыл бұрын

@@DesmondButler thank you for the reply. I'm looking to be set up for camping with my daughter's. This will add a new level of experience and fun. Anything else I should get ? Is the wifi module necessary since I'll be in the bush most likely . Or any other accessory ? It's hard to find a video that goes well with what I have , ie. The a6500 and potential 6se

@AreEff1987

Жыл бұрын

@@DesmondButler also any specific adapter you suggest?

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

@@AreEff1987 Once you get your telescope, you'll begin to familiarize yourself with how to align it with the stars. It takes some getting used to, but you'll figure it out. It's a lot of fun. For photographing the moon, though, you shouldn't even need alignment. Just point and snap. The moon is bright enough that you can capture it with pretty short exposures. As for the adapter, I have an aluminum one that is kind of a hybrid and its kind of old, but I think this should work for you: www.celestron.com/products/sony-e-mount-t-ring

@AreEff1987

Жыл бұрын

@@DesmondButler what about filters

No doubt that crack in the firmament is beautiful.

@ricrid

9 ай бұрын

Yes sir

The 6D is the best choice for astro cheap on used market and very good in low light

@Circuit_Savvy

10 ай бұрын

what? it costs $1000 used in Europe. Waste of money on an old camera..

@user-bi6nd3wv3x

8 ай бұрын

1000$???? that is canon 6d2

@Circuit_Savvy

8 ай бұрын

@@user-bi6nd3wv3x unfortunately not.

But without m200 (m6), d3400, d5500 or d610 or xa5(7)/xt100/xe3/xt20 and without a68 (a5100) 😢

What lens filter was added?

@DesmondButler

9 ай бұрын

No lens filters of any kind are used in my comparisons.

What is modified and who modified?

@DesmondButler

10 ай бұрын

www.spencerscamera.com/astro-conversions.cfm

Just wanted to point out that this is no EOS R, the camera you are showing in this video is an EOS RP.

@DesmondButler

10 ай бұрын

I'll be darned! It says EOS R right on the body, but you are correct. I opened up the files in CameraRaw and sure enough, it says EOS RP. Nice catch! It looks like the differences between the two are not entirely negligible either. While most things are the same, the actual EOS R has 30.3 MP compared to the 26.2 MP on the EOS RP. This would have been an easy thing to have noticed if I had double checked everything, but I just took the owner at his word. He works in my office, so I'll have to question him about that today 😄 Thank you for pointing this out. Good eye, my friend.

@brizzle3903

Күн бұрын

Curse Canon for the deception and the disgraceeeee! 😂 good eye indeed

I think the canon 6d did the best in my opinion

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

I could honestly see that, even in spite of the circumstances. It really was at a serious disadvantage with that restricted aperture. I wish I could have tested it in a fair way. I may have to find another lens with a wide aperture and give her another shot. Thanks for the response!

What about Canon RP ?

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

I haven't ever used one yet, but I may have to test it out for night shots if I ever get my hands on one.

@pixelartcba

11 ай бұрын

Hello, I wonder the same. Have you already tried that camera for astrophotography?

Which camera do you think is the best among the five cameras?

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

That is a tough one. There are advantages to the R1 with the astro-mod, but since you can have that done with basically any camera, I'm going to disregard that aspect for the moment. For me, it is between the R6 and the a6500. I own the a6500, but I do a lot more shooting with the R6 because it is my studio's camera. If I had done this shootout with a full-frame lens, the R6 would have done much better with the details simply because it is a significantly larger sensor. That being said, getting stable video with just my hands is nearly effortless with the a6500 and usually quite a task with the R6. And while it seems most people prefer the Canon color science, I honestly prefer the color that comes out of my Sony camera to the R6, especially when it comes to night shots. This video was limited for a comparison between those two, and honestly given their age and price gaps, its not really a comparison people would seek out. Nevertheless, I plan to do some more night shootouts this summer, hopefully with a couple more modern cameras in the lineup. I'd be interested to see what you think after I release that comparison. Thanks for the question!

@zerachannel24

Жыл бұрын

@@DesmondButler thank you for answering, it means that they have their own advantages and disadvantages, so I might think more about what is best for me

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

@@zerachannel24 If you don't mind my asking, what is your price range? And will your focus be on night photography or something else?

@zerachannel24

Жыл бұрын

@@DesmondButler I don't really have a problem with the price, maybe I prefer quality?? yes I focus more on night photography, and less for street photography

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

@@zerachannel24 If I had a large budget to go buy a new camera that was focused on astrophotography, I would most likely go with the new Sony a7R V. I've been doing some night shots with its predecessor the a7R IV and I have been extremely impressed. Here's a recent example: instagram.com/p/CrGnA07OWdV/ Sony cameras are just exceptional at handling low light situations, and this model features a 60 megapixel full frame sensor. I'll definitely be featuring it my next couple of videos. Hope that's helpful info though.

What’s an Astro mod ?

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

I explain this in depth at the 2:33 mark.

Почему я часто слышу, что R зеленит? Это исправляется как-то?

@DesmondButler

7 ай бұрын

Вы имеете в виду сони или кэнон? Я не знаю, слышал ли я это раньше.

@user-dl5tt1pf3e

6 ай бұрын

@@DesmondButler Canon R. Его сравнивали с R6 и R5, у остальных цвета тёплые, но у Canon R они зеленят и это странно. Может это настройка такая.

@user-dl5tt1pf3e

6 ай бұрын

@@DesmondButler даже у вас на видео Canon R имеет зелёный оттенок цвета. Это убирать можно?

@DesmondButler

6 ай бұрын

@@user-dl5tt1pf3e Я не заметил, но да, это можно убрать в фотошопе, отрегулировав «баланс белого».

@user-dl5tt1pf3e

6 ай бұрын

@@DesmondButler у вас на видео, где сравнение 5 камер я вижу, что у R единственного земля зеленая

Am surprised you overlooked ......folks that don't have a car .. Like me I don't have that luxury to venture over an hour to a dark location so i have to improvise and adapt

@ricrid

9 ай бұрын

Me to and i dont have the luxury of a camera . He could do a video for that huh , dump truck

The camera in your video is an EOS RP, not an EOS R.

@DesmondButler

6 күн бұрын

That is correct, @philk.268 pointed this out in the comments last year. The gentleman I borrowed it from had no idea, but it is kind of silly that Canon prints the correct name on the body for every camera except this one.

So you've become a sony guy huh? ;)

@DesmondButler

4 ай бұрын

Born this way 😎 JK. I try hard to be objective in these videos, but I feel like the results speak for themselves. Hard to beat the low-light performance on their backlit mirrorless sensors.

Sony

Honestly this video is unnecessary as it would confuse people. Youre using apsc lens on full frame r and r6. Youre basically getting less megapixel and worse low light performance, and this is a low light comparison. Although they both did best this isnt their full potential.

@DesmondButler

11 ай бұрын

Which is why I verbally addressed it in the video, but good news: a little while ago, I performed an updated comparison using a full frame lens, and that video is scheduled to release very soon. I think you'll be surprised with the outcome.

But... f3.5 on APS-C is not equivalent to f3.5 on full frame...

Okay 1. If doing sky photography you do not want to be taking pictures this long. You use the rule of 500, you take the length of your lens so 35, and you divide 500 by that, and that's the max exposure time you should use on your camera other wise the stars will actually be moving in frame and you lose some focus or it causes those streaks. 2. To go along with that, generally you want lenses that are "faster" around a 1.8 ideally for the F stop to get the cleanest image. I get that this video is just testing the kit lens to compare but thats really not what you should be using. 3. Please lower the ISO, this brings down your noise, of course in order to do so you need that faster F stop. But on a Canon R in pitch black if you use a 35mm lens with F stop 1.8 you could get great light exposure with under 14 seconds exposure time and your ISO under 3200. Also make sure to capture in Raw

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

I'm not sure who this comment was directed toward since you seem to be talking about things I never portrayed or mentioned. Multiple lenses were shown in this video, and none of them are doing what you're describing. The example pics speak for themselves as far as star sharpness, and if you watched the video it was plainly stated that they are raw. We also very clearly covered the fact that a lower number for aperture is ideal when describing those lenses. Furthermore, the Canon kit lens is a well established entry level astro lens, and about a thousand astrophotographer blogs back that up. The same goes for ISO 6400, very very common setting suggestion for starters. I guess you could shoot at 35mm if you wanted to, but you would surely have to take shorter shots than any of the lenses used in this video. Pretty much every astrophotography expert will tell you 20mm or lower is ideal.

@clintbrunke2074

Жыл бұрын

@@DesmondButler you literally have noise in many of the pictures shown and you even talk about the noise, I am stating that while I get your showing a beginner level idea for the lens to use and settings, you should be giving out the information to make it better, so that's what I was doing, you don't even talk about the 500 rule and you tell people to use a crazy long exposure time, which is why you have so many streaks in your shots and why only your brightest of stars are in focus but even those you can see have a little movement. And 6400 iso is fine if you have a lens that doesn't have a good enough aperture. But you should then tell people, it's better to get a lens that is faster and shoot at the fastest f stop so you can bring down your ISO and that's what helps get rid of noise. But you don't say any of that. I on purpose wasn't making comments directly at you, I was making suggestions to make the pictures better if people want to learn how. And I used the 35 as an example to describe these things cus that's one of the most common lenses used. Also why on earth would you make a comparison video and not used ideal settings or lenses. If your gonna compare cameras to show people what they can get the best bang for the buck, then use those cameras the best they can do. You don't handicap some lol what a joke. If you have the money to buy a canon R but you are for some reason using a kit lens for a different canon, not even the kit lens that comes with the damn camera lol. An actual comparison video would be, hey this is a canon R it costs this much money and with its best setting on the lens built for it, this is what it looks like. But if you spend less money you can use this older 6d and this lens at its best settings and see if the difference is worth the money. But I could tell from how terrible your shots were that you were not gonna give a good example, the fact you chose to show sky photos with big white streaks in them and you think those are good shots. Haha. Maybe next time don't make things personal and understand the context of a comment.

@DesmondButler

Жыл бұрын

Once again, its difficult to tell whose video you're watching. In addition to your imagined star streaks, you also seem to have heard things that weren't said. This never claimed to be a "how to" video; there are plenty of those here on KZread. It is only a comparison video. And, as you again seemed to have not heard, it was plainly stated that these are just a random assortment of cameras I had access to, not cameras I completely own. At the time this video was made, I didn't even have money to compare them all on the same full-frame lens (which I think would have been a much more interesting comparison), so the assertion that I had the funds for anything more than what is shown in the video is completely unfounded and flies in the face of what the actual video said for anyone who actually listened. It's unfortunate that you say that you took my reply personally when all I have done is respond to the statements made in your comments. To show that helpful input is welcome, perhaps you could share a link to a video that you think does a good job of introducing users to astrophotography or comparing only relevant camera models on a high budget, since you appear to wish that those were the type of video this was.

@stefanschneider3681

Жыл бұрын

@@DesmondButler ignore the haters, they are not worth the effort 😉

@rogerbarnett8412

10 ай бұрын

@@DesmondButler Depends. I am now shooting at 28, 35 and even 85mm.... the latter was 4 seconds at ISO 10000, Canon R5, Cheap EF 85 f/1.8 I shot 70 for stacks, but the single shot that I processed was excellent. My appx times are 24mm 13-15 sec, 28mm 10-13 sec, 35mm 8-10 sec. ( lenses are 1.4) I shoot multiple angles for stitched pans, which allows me to have the foreground subject larger.....while still getting plenty of the galaxy. My current bodies: R5, 5D IV, 7D II. I'm thinking of buying a Spencer modded R5 from a reputable seller on fredmiranda (no one seems to want it, so he keeps reducing the price) or getting a used R6 for