sorry about the comic sans 💀

@EpicCreepuh

9 ай бұрын

💀

@billyfurman4888

9 ай бұрын

Sans undertale

@Trockenshampooleopard

9 ай бұрын

💀

Mark the tab you bent with paint, or something, so you don't use it again. Bent tabs will tend to break off if re-used.

@SoranoGuardias

9 ай бұрын

Luckily there are more tabs.

@apprenticeofeverything

9 ай бұрын

@@SoranoGuardiasright! They can just use another tab midway a live concert! Makes sense to ignore metal fatigue!

@arcrad

9 ай бұрын

Probably pretty obvious that the mangled tabs have already been used.

@solinus7131

9 ай бұрын

I think they should also keep spare tab wheels so if all the tabs were used, they can change out the part

@gary_rumain_you_peons

9 ай бұрын

If you look closely, there are multiple notches on the locking nut and multiple tabs on the spacer. But you only need to bend one tab to slot into a notch on the locking nut. So, basically, if a tab fails you simply use another one. The design was obviously made like that to extend the life of the spacer.

At the end of all this the Marble Machine tells Martin that he doesn't play tight enough to go on a World Tour with it and starts a solo career.

@gary_rumain_you_peons

9 ай бұрын

Bwahahaha!!!

@jf41012

9 ай бұрын

Does that mean it will also start to replace Martin with new versions and call the old ones a "failure"? :P

@nathanpender3353

9 ай бұрын

Oh, that was really not nice.

@Eis_

8 ай бұрын

"This hammer on a string plays better than you, Martin. I'm sorry, but we can't stay this way."

Please add a hinge to the pedal (or allow the linkage to fold) so it's never forced down by the flywheel. The sides are a good start for saving body parts, but if something wedges itself in the gap, you will tear the machine apart.

@vjay4297

9 ай бұрын

That's a very good suggestion. Makes it safer when something small and strong gets underneath the pedal by accident.

@nagualdesign

9 ай бұрын

At the very least, the gaps should be larger than a finger, or in this case the toe of a shoe, so it's not possible to become trapped. I know it's only an experimental prototype but it does look like an accident waiting to happen. Popcorn, anyone? 🍿

@constantinosschinas4503

9 ай бұрын

If a marble wedges in the back of it, it can severly injure you as a low speed bullet, as well. In general, backup needed.

@mackado

9 ай бұрын

I believe that's part of the plan and I think he already has it made. I think he's trying without to ensure the results of this testing without adding backlash from the hinge.

@scaredyfish

9 ай бұрын

I think that will help with timing as well, because you can push down on the beat

Following the livestream today, I think one of the reasons it is so hard to make this feel tight is that you only have control of input, for half of the time. On the MMX it was possible to control the input of power for the whole circle movement and thereby 100% of the time. It was mentioned and quickly disregarded to use bike pedals, because it would be very limiting on stage. But I think it's important to recognise why bikepedals work so well. Having two pedals allows for one foot to take over, when the other is not able to input energy into the system. Imagine trying to get a certain tempo while biking, but only using one pedal. This would be extremely hard and I think this answers the primary reason why this design is causing trouble and would do so even if it was more well tuned. Remember on a fixed bike you would also break when applying force in the wrong half of the circle. Using a strap as shown today would be slightly better, but I do think you need to be able to distribute an even amount of force on the up and down movement of the pedal for it to feel natural.

@frankderks1150

9 ай бұрын

Perhaps a spring under the pedal would mitigate some of this problem. Energy to bring the padel up doesn't have to come back from the flywheel.

@ast_rsk

9 ай бұрын

I think this is exactly it -- there is a huge loss of control with the foot pedal. The governor is absolutely required with this approach.

@s.backer5134

9 ай бұрын

You could also just add a second pedal and do the stepping with both feet. But it might be difficult to step on and off

@mickys8065

9 ай бұрын

@@s.backer5134 some blacksmith bellows have that approach, where you move your weight side to side to push the pedals.

@xYouTubax

9 ай бұрын

My two cents: Hundreds of hours of cycling while listening to music taught me, that it is really difficult to stay in beat with cycling. The inertia is so big and the needed force changes drastically from needed a lot of force when you are behind and none when you are ahead, that it's difficult to get a feel for it.

In reality you would not need to keep the BPM synced to an external metronome, but only keep the BPM synced to a specific number, if you understand. What you need is a "speedometer" that monitors your own speed and outputs that number to you.

@_o_

9 ай бұрын

That makes sense, just a needle on a dial showing bpm instead of rpm, so not trying to match exactly the downbeat but the actual speed needed to maintain. I think trying to maintain control of bpm physically instead of mechanically is bold and potentially aggravating af to implement .

@NeilFraser

9 ай бұрын

It's the difference between frequency (which is important) and phase (which is irrelevant). In this test he's trying to match both, which is really hard.

@vividadvantage2572

9 ай бұрын

For the actual machine, he said that this is what he is going to do. It will be the only thing beside the microphones that isn’t mechanical

@lukasmarschalek

9 ай бұрын

Fully agree! what he needs is something like the variometer in a glider. It gives a high pitched fast peeping if you go up (faster then the target bpm) and a low pitch when you go down (slower then the target bpm). It would basically indicate the difference between the target and the actual rpm/bpm.

The pedal would be even stronger if you make a triangle instead of welding just another one. Also in a triangle you could support the covers.

@DominusFeles

9 ай бұрын

Engineering 101 right there!

@ashtree129

9 ай бұрын

It wouldn't be stronger because the direction of the load is only in the one dimension

@TenSeventeen

9 ай бұрын

Perhaps using a solid bar stock rather than the square tube

@gordon1201

9 ай бұрын

​@@ashtree129what? Yea and the only structure he has at the moment is perpendicular to said force.. so adding a beam to create a triangular structure would increase the strength/rigidity of the structure by like 50% or more

@aleksandrbmelnikov

9 ай бұрын

Half-circle gusset plate.

You should look into the governor and other control mechanisms after the flywheel, so your goal with the pedal is not to match BPM but to keep the flywheel above a threshold. You would control tempo via another system further down with more refined control.

@seankuhn6633

9 ай бұрын

A continuous variable transmission would fix any and all timing issues

@laggytim

9 ай бұрын

I've been confused the last few with the dial. The pedal is the same tempo as the dial so I can't see the point of it

@evanbarnes9984

9 ай бұрын

​@@laggytimthe dial is just there to provide a mount for the contact mic so he can get timing signals out of the machine and recorded into software. I think he made the dial as a large visual indicator for the audience, since he could have done this with a much smaller setup.

@lupta

9 ай бұрын

@@evanbarnes9984 Bigger diameter of the dial can improve the accuracy of the measurement too

@randomnickify

9 ай бұрын

He literaly mentions governor in the video.

Oh it appears the visitor did read the comment section being full of: Martin, don't forget about bending the tab

@constantinosschinas4503

9 ай бұрын

first thing i thought. last video was full of "bend those tabs" comments.

A "continuous variable transmission" can fix any timing issues! Thank you for everything you do!

You've built yourself a Phase Locked Loop, but inserted yourself as the Loop Filter. Your undershot / accelerate / overshoot / decelerate pattern is a well-known phenomenon when a PLL is under-damped.

@ChuckSploder

9 ай бұрын

PLL = Permutation of the Last Layer, which is the last step in solving a 3x3x3 Rubik's cube when using the CFOP method

@jatoxo

9 ай бұрын

@@ChuckSploder I've been practicing CFOP, I'll try over-dampening my PLLs

@TlalocTemporal

9 ай бұрын

I was just thinking that this feels like a poorly tuned PID. I guess there are other control systems too, though I've never seen an implementation.

@chrissavage5966

9 ай бұрын

The gain is way too low....and always will be, given the design. Adding more flywheel inertia will simply make the problem worse.

@lupta

9 ай бұрын

@@chrissavage5966 Solution would be a bigger diameter of flywheel with less mass in the middle, so weight would be the same but inertia would increase.

Remember that you dont need to match the beat of the metronome, youre making things way harder for yourself than you need to. What you need is a rpm sensor so you can know your rpm/bpm, and try to keep that constant.

I remember when LTT first built that PC. Nice to see it in its natural habitat

Keep in mind that when there's a full machine being powered by the flywheel, it'll be much harder to maintain tempo since you'll need to add a lot of energy at just the right rate, which will add to the already challenging task of keeping with the beat

@Qardo

9 ай бұрын

If I recall, many of the old Orchestrions used a flywheel. All to maintain a consistent speed. So it is unreasonable to use one.

@nsiivola

9 ай бұрын

That is additional damping, though, making it harder to overshoot?

@victorcercasin

9 ай бұрын

@@nsiivola it makes so that whatever tempo the machine is at it would slow down faster, so even if you get the tempo just right, it'll slow down quite fast and you need to keep paddling to keep it in the sweet spot

I stopped in to the live stream yesterday to lend you a little advice regarding TIG welding and arc welding in general. 1) the tighter the plasma shield and shorter the arc the cooler and cleaner the weld will be. This will help to not overcook and weakening the material around the weld. 2) using a square wave pulse setting at a lower voltage will allow you to produce a much cleaner weld and help you control your filler feed timing. 3) increase post gas cfh and flow time. Hold position until the post gas process has finished. These 3 things should help significantly. Best regards, great work thus far.

Martin is such a performer at heart. Creating things in front of an audience clearly gives him energy and motivation, even if it's the design and build process rather than making music. It's really heartwarming seeing how happy it makes him to be working in front of people again.

You being in essence an organic PID controller you‘d need an even lighter flywheel to perfectly match an unchanging external beat. Why don‘t you try playing 80pbm with a bpm measurement of your mic instead of trying to match an external beat that you continuously chase and overshoot, you‘ll see that you will be MUCH tighter than you think you can right now. Don‘t throw your design/idea because of bad measurement methodology. Also isn‘t it hard to match with your foot down? I thought you‘d be easier to time your step if the beat is on the ‚up‘ position

@peterfireflylund

9 ай бұрын

Yeah. He’s trying to match speed AND phase without really thinking too deep about it.

@nagualdesign

9 ай бұрын

Not sure I agree with it being easier to match the beat at the up position. I'm not a musician but, as I understand it, in a band the drummer keeps the tempo and the bass drum beats in a foot down position, so it should feel more natural to keep the beat in a foot down position.

@StuffandThings_

9 ай бұрын

Yeah, my first thought with this was a controls problem! Though manual control is notoriously bad, I really do wonder if there is a mechanical equivalent to a PI or PID controller... now that I think about it, a governor kinda acts like a mechanical controller...

@gamehaxe

9 ай бұрын

Yes, I think you are right. You could make the target click X ms from the previous measured position, not N * Xms from some arbitrary point in time, so you never have to "catch up" you just have to hit the speed.

@Lesani

9 ай бұрын

@@nagualdesign My thought is that it‘s easier to time the start application of force than the stopping of application, and just by that time when you start applying, you‘ll easier control the speed because if you are too fast you ‚lag behind‘ in the application, and thus have less time on the input and less force in. Maybe it‘s not up, but 20deg into the rotation, think car engine, when the engine fires on a very simple engine approx

Isn't inertia the opposite of what you want? If you're manually controlling the BPM, it must be incredibly difficult to get a system with this much inertia to stay at one BPM level as you have essentially no fine control at all and the feedback is very slow

We finally got to see the LTT computer! I was like "that's not is it? No don't recognize the names. Did he say Jansen or Linus?"

@DonoVideoProductions

9 ай бұрын

Yes, he did.

I love seeing the ideas develop with an audience, it's such a good idea to challenge yours and develop faster! Keep up the great work!

Is it an idea to use a stroboscope to measure the thightness? If, in your current case, you play exactly 80 bpm but out of phase, you need to accelerate and decelerate to correct the timing. With a stroboscope you can ignore the phase issue for now.

@palpytine

9 ай бұрын

The tightness of the thigh is a very important metric for a leg-powered machine

@foldionepapyrus3441

9 ай бұрын

Very sensible, even works when on tour with other musicians if you can keep the strobe contained enough to not be really annoying but visible to the operator - at least most musicians will be used to keeping time off/staying in sync with somebody else! As the machine is the least able to react it would have to be the pace setter.

@riparianlife97701

9 ай бұрын

And pitch won't change, so our ears won't pick it up.

@gary_rumain_you_peons

9 ай бұрын

@@palpytine Thiccness, surely.

Maybe I'm missing something, but when you showed off the Huygen weight drive last month, and then the flywheel made a comeback in this prototype, I assumed you were going in the direction of using the drive to produce constant rotation for the machine, and then use the flywheel only to raise the weight -- meaning it wouldn't matter how tight or consistent the flywheel was at all.

@TlalocTemporal

9 ай бұрын

That was one of the options. At this point, he's just testing the options, so if this doesn't pan out, a Huygens drive might show up. That would be after experinenting with a governor though.

@spyseefan975

9 ай бұрын

I think he wants the foot stroke to essentially be a skill based instrument itself. If he doesn't do that though clockmakers have already figured this out a long time ago, music is all about timing so the overlap is huge with mechanical clocks. A grandfather clock is basically a 60bpm version of what he is trying to make.

@deemstyle

9 ай бұрын

I think he just wants to create content and never finish a damn thing.

I really feel like the falling weight design would be a lot better suited for this, for several reasons, and here are just some of them: - In your comparison video you mentioned how the gravity powered design is used in clocks and even for telescope turning which are very precise scenarios. This will give you constant control over bpm without having to focus your leg movement to balance between overshooting and undershooting, which is both distracting and tiresome - Flywheel systems are meant to store energy and release it, no one uses them for precision timing. It's kind of like a pulley (and additionally like a short term energy storage), where you input bursts of less energy quickly, to do a much more difficult job slower. Similar to a flywheel, where you pump in bursts of smaller amounts of energy, and can later release that energy for a more intense quick job. Sure a pulley is not a direct comparison but you get the point.

@cranemon

9 ай бұрын

Ultimately, I think his machine will still need to incorporate a flywheel simply to resist instantaneous fluctuations in speed. I think what would be really cool to see is instead of a continuous energy input, the pedal could be used to "wind up" the falling weight. If there were a ratcheting noise associated with pressing the pedal, he could incorporate it into certain parts of the song for added effect.

@JulesStoop

9 ай бұрын

It would be very hard to control the tempo of such a system though. A musical instrument needs that control. If you were to use variable friction for small tempo variations, you would end up with instability that’s probably worse than the flywheel design.

@MeisterFurball

9 ай бұрын

An adjustable escapement could change the tempo but I'm not sure you could adjust it quickly and without stopping the machine

@JanasV

9 ай бұрын

@@MeisterFurball Could incorporate a similar gearing system to bicycles, where the chain slips onto another gear on the go. I imagine it would be faster than adjusting the tempo of current flywheel design, even using the break

@JulesStoop

9 ай бұрын

@@MeisterFurball from my experience as a musician, you need a system that can compensate for some degree of drift (besides being able to set a wide range of the tempi from the onset of a song). Drift compensation of course wouldn’t be necessary if the Marble Machine is always the instrument that’s generating the master tempo and other people/machines follow.

Whats about a Tachometer. With an electronic one (Bicycle), it migth be even programeable to BPM....Magnet on fastest moving part, Flywheel.

Maybe you need some electronic support to maintan the same speed. I have someting in mind like the cruise control funktion in modern cars. You have full manual control of you speed but if you like to hold the speed push a lever and the machine maintain the speed by herself until you want the manuel control back.

I have been following your journey since you posted the first video of the first marble machine over 7 years ago. It's truly incredible the community you've built behind the journey, the amazing engineering and manufacturing groups you've brought together, and sparking the interest of builders worldwide. Well done, friend. Can't wait to see where you journey takes you in the future! I wish I could have been there to meet you.

What an amazing group. Meeting of minds.

Instead of aligning to an external metronome click, it'd probably be more useful to feed the mic into a delay effect and synchronize against the appropriate delay -- in whatever ensemble the MM will be part of, it's going to be setting the time, so it just needs to synchronize to the correct interval length, not synchronize to some external click.

A reminder to everyone posting suggestions in the comments here that Martin has said that he does not read the YT comments, but he does read the comments over on r/MarbleMachine3.

my guy, it is so fun to see these sort of spontaneous crowdfunded knowledge and expertise show up randomly like this. it really speaks to how large this project and your ambitions have grown, expanding well beyond just yourself to a whole global community of rad people

Keep up the good work, great to see this Vid Doc series day by day! We will see a working marble machine!!! 😊

I think the position of the clock hand influences your "feel" of the time a lot. It seems to be aligned so that the clock hand hits the microphone exactly when the pedal hits the lowest point. If you feel you're to slow, then the hand should hit earlier than at the lowest point. I am not sure if this will actually help but I can imagine it's hard to feel the beat when the movement doesn't match the click.

@anthonyleske6840

9 ай бұрын

Instead of trying to synchronize to the metronome, he had a bpm/rpm display he would nail it.

@FrameRate_24

9 ай бұрын

@@anthonyleske6840 except he's trying to not just hit a target BPM hes also trying to play "in time" otherwise collaborating with other instruments, or being repeatable musically would be impossible see: MMX

@vonpredator

9 ай бұрын

What MArtin is measuring now with the clock is meaningless. The flywheel shaft has to go through a transmission to a give a consistent RPM. The flywheel needs to be overspun to keep a reserve of energy.

@br52685

9 ай бұрын

@@vonpredator Agreed--I don't understand why that's not obvious to him. Or if the intent *is* to keep a precise RPM, then this path is doomed.

@ThunderClawShocktrix

9 ай бұрын

@@FrameRate_24 cant the bad jsut use his machine as the timing refrence though?

This new video format is great. Really enjoying this series!

Another problem i see: Your pedal movement is not in sync to the rotation speed. You might need a transmission in a division with straight numbers 2, 4, 8, 16.....1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16.......

put a freewheel clutch on the input of the flywheel so the peddle isn't driven and use a spring to raise the peddle you then wont crush your foot and can turn the pulley at any down stroke position.

@Thomas_de_Meijer

9 ай бұрын

Yes it feels like this would allow matching the phase of the beat easier because you could keep your foot moving with the “correct” beat pattern rather than lagging or leading the whole time.

@user-jq2rf4nf3o

9 ай бұрын

@@Thomas_de_Meijer And not chopping ones foot off is a plus too

For some extra safety, you could ad the broom like thing that you would usually find on escalator around the hole for the pedal

Tight and in sync aren't the same thing, though. The problem with the fast acceleration is that when the machine force is higher. because f ex it might drop a lot of marbles at once, it might slow down.

@frankderks1150

9 ай бұрын

In other words: The load of the marble machine isn't constant making it harder to keep a constant timing.

@RegebroRepairs

9 ай бұрын

@@frankderks1150 Right. And that's what the flywheel is there for.

@br52685

9 ай бұрын

@@RegebroRepairs Except that he's thinking the flywheel will somehow maintain a precise RPM, while still delivering a variable power-output. I think someone didn't pay attention during high-school physics class.

@frankderks1150

9 ай бұрын

​@@RegebroRepairs The energy stored in the flywheel will keep the machine going but not with great timing precision. Variable load, variable input, it will always drift slowly around the desired tempo because of the flywheels inertia. A flywheel on it's own isn't going to satisfy the tight music design requirement unless it's much bigger than what he has in mind.

@Just_Sara

9 ай бұрын

Even when he gets to the right BPM, he's not synchronized with the audible beat, and I feel like it will be hard to tell when you're doing fine that way.

You should make the vertical pedal linkage be able to buckle under compression. Then, even if something manages to jam the pedal (foot, a marble, etc). It will safely just buckle instead of instantly crashing the machine to a stop and likely damaging things. Just using a single screw instead of 2, and something to keep it from going perfectly straight would probably accomplish this.

You should be so proud of yourself. It was great to see all the other projects that you inspired.

It has always been so inspirational watching Martin's battle

Awesome creations!

The test you conducted doesn't test if the flywheel prototype can play tightly, but rather how well it can follow a metronome. If the beats aren't synchronised you need to change tempo to one which doesn't match the metronome's, which causes you to overshoot. This is because the flywheel makes it harder to speed up or slow down, due to it's moment of inertia. In essence the mass of the flywheel is working against you if you want to synchronise the beat with the metronome, a smaller flywheel would do better if this was what mattered. However it isn't, the prototype should be able to play at a consistent tempo, although desynchronised from the metronome. If you measure the rpm of the timing tester you can then use a display to monitor your current bpm.

Always surprising when you see other people you follow around, like Neil! Glad this event was held and looks like a huge success!

Thanks for the videos and the creativity !

that looks fun...lots of shared creative energy

The activity and involvement of and from everyone blows my mind ❤

reengaged with the build now things are getting built. great stuff

How about adding a toestrap, which will help you match timing because you'll have double-action control (up as well as down).

@HellCraw

9 ай бұрын

You can see they experimented with that in the Live stream.

@99xara99

9 ай бұрын

They added a toestrap in the end, it seemed to help a little bit with control and input power

@michalgrbk

9 ай бұрын

Losing balance with the foot strapped to the machine that easily lifts the whole body weight could open a side project, the Marble Wheelchair.

I never clicked on a video so fast, i love seeing the progress

its so cool, you started a entire movement :D its bigger then just the marble machine now, amazing :) !

Instead of microphone, add hall effect sensor, hook it to arduino or raspberry to display live bpm. I am sure a crowd of makers can help you do that in an hour

I don't think syncing to a click track is important... you will always have problems since you've put so much inertia into your system. If you need to sync other electronics to your machine... give them the click it generates! You have plans for a regulator? Perhaps adjustable? Like a spinning ball (steam engine) or wind vane (music box)? Music tempo feels better when it breathes anyway... don't be a slave to the click Martin! Yes, the locking tabs are important, I had not realized you did not understand them, it's what happens inside a car wheel hub's locking nut.

So glad to finally see that PC in one of your videos haha :D wish I could have made it to the event, maybe next year! :)

I still don’t understand what you’re hoping to accomplish with the direct measurement of the flywheel for timing. Unless you have a transmission of some sort to store extra energy/rpm you’d put into the flywheel it will never be “tight”. as soon as you stop inputting energy, peddling.. the system will slow.

@dimitrimichaux461

9 ай бұрын

It smoothens out the changes, making them less big.

@br52685

9 ай бұрын

Agreed. I don't see why there was ever any expectation that the flywheel maintain a perfect RPM. And if that *was* the hope/expectation, then this project is ill-conceived. Not only is there going to be massive fluxuations in the INPUT energy, there is also going to be substantial changes in the OUTPUT energy requirements (as the machine operates).

@vonpredator

9 ай бұрын

@@dimitrimichaux461 Yes, that is the obvious reason to use a flywheel, but you also give higher torque out on the shaft to drive more things…. He can’t keep peddling the wheel, he needs to overspin the flywheel and get extra stored energy into it then use that through some sort of transmission to drive the machine in proper timing…. This all seems to be very frivolous….

@gir_bot

9 ай бұрын

This is a prototype and what he's trying to accomplish is to determine whether or not this design will work on the MM3. It seems pretty clear that there are some issues with this design which it looks like Martin is beginning to realize, so in that sense, this test is a success!

@br52685

9 ай бұрын

@@gir_bot I don't think the problem is entirely with the design (although I don't think it's a GOOD design)--but the problem is with what he's *expecting* out of this design. Expecting the flywheel to maintain a precise RPM is an incorrect expectation. If that was the original plan (a year ago), then I don't see why it took a year to recognize this mistake. Ironically, isn't this exactly what Katie (I believe it was her) commented a couple days ago about the 2nd machine: what he was EXPECTING the machine to do, wasn't what it was DESIGNED to do...

Yay🎉 so good to g hear all that positive optimism 🎉😊

fabulous! just fab!!!🦌💌❤️🙏

I occasionally work on punch presses with flywheels. They typically have a brake with friction material on the drive shaft. That may help with controlling the overshoot.

I just thought of a perfect application for the Huygen chain weight drive. Add a small one to your machine (could even be the size of your lego demonstration), with a small weight that both sets the speed of falling when not powered and is the indicator for the following: When powered by the pulley, it will do one of three things, If you are lower than your target RPM, the weight will start to fall. If you are higher, it will rise, however, if you match it, it stays in place. It is basically a differentiator to give you feedback on how well your timing is in real time. This way, when you are playing without a metronome, all you have to do is keep the weight as steady as possible, no need to overshoot the RPM and have the governor do extra work for you. An actual mechanical differentiator or RPM reading device would probably be better, but figured the huygen drive deserves a chance to have an actual use after seeing how much you liked it in your video

@lapointdaniel

9 ай бұрын

Clever.

The makerspace is awesome! :)

Musician, Engineer, and Educator chiming in here. I have a lot of experience working in the marching arts. Drum corp international to be specific. I played in the quad line, which was a good experience, because you're not exactly the center of pulse, but you are close. With drumlines, a similar kind of inertia forms around the pulse. I've also seen many drumlines oscillate around the tempo (something I call slinkying). When addressing this problem with students, it's helpful to mention that there are two adjustments you have to make when syncing with a metronome. The first is to start drifting yourself toward the metronome, and the second is, once you meet the metronome, you need to return to the original tempo. The problem you're encountering is that ass you add flywheel weight, it becomes harder to make the second adjustment quick enough to stay in sync. But the benefit you have with a heavy flywheel is that pulse will not be affected by changes in load on the machine. I think that is the more important requirement you need to meet for what I would call 'tight' In my experience, syncing two clocks like this is a losing battle. It's very difficult to keep two vinyl records in sync for a short crossfade transition. And it brings me to the dumb requirements question. Is it a dumb requirement to try to keep the marble machine in sync with a fixed click? For one, it would be easier to configure a midi device through an arduino that would turn the rotation of your clock into a midi sync signal. Then show elements like lighting, visualizations, and digital effects could be synced with the machine, rather than trying to keep it in time with some external click. Maybe a simpler solution would be to have a 'speedometer' that reports the BPM you are running at, and then you would be free to organically play with the instrument, yet reference a clear tempo at points where the music demands a specific tempo?

wow! overall I thought the test was very encouraging for a first go. you have only the pulley, pedal and flywheel atm. there are so many things you can add to make it work better. still you were able to nail and sustain the beat. yipee!

Martin. I hope you may one day achieve a marble machine that meets your musical standards, Until then, know that your efforts have never been wasted, as they have inspired legions of inventors, musicians, and tinkerers to reach higher and dream larger. DREAM!

Definitely make this a yearly or so event and make it into a competition of designing and building music machines in different categories.

Wow! So cool to see Neil! I have played his auto glockenspiel online!

Nice to see all that positivity.. we all know the world needs some .. 👍

There is something you'll have to consider for the inertia : here you only have the flywheel, but the machine itself will bring a lot of inertia to the whole system

I think you need a gear box that can accept a variable rotation input and output a steady time. Then a stick shifter that can shift to different tempos. Sadly I'm not smart enough to design such a gear box. Sounds really complicated.

@seankuhn6633

9 ай бұрын

Its called a CVT "continuous variable transmission"

You may be forgetting that the whole machine behind will also add a massive inertia, that's why the MMX had much less trouble staying on time despite the much lighter flywheel. You could simulate that by adding a big weight on the time counter.

DAY 6! LETS GOOO!!!

I've been working with bearings for years and i thought those bendable tabs being used to lock everything in place was a very well known thing.

Just my observation that your ‘power’ stroke is only supplying a force 50% of the total revolution. If you consider a steam locomotive the piston is powered by steam pressure on both sides of the piston or equivalent of a 100% power stroke with no interruption. This is also the case with pedal powered bikes, with power stroke’s alternating with the right and left foot to create uninterrupted power strokes. Unilateral powers 50%, bilateral power strokes produce a more consistent rotational force for the power. ❤ love your videos 👍

just looking at the ring locking mechanism for the bearing, I personally would've thought the tabs spoke for themself when "locking down" the assembly, otherwise they're not needed. Sebastiaan's PC takes the cake for me, and such a cool dude with some knockout answers (wasn't ready for the feature-creep, sprayed my coffee).

None of the MarbeleMachines are a failure at all! Look at the inspiration and beauty were created only because you've build them! I am touched and sad again not to have been there ... Perhaps there will be a meetup next year again, where I am able to be also :)

I was playing Where's Waldo (er Martin) in the Wintergatan Meetup photo. I spotted Martin peeking out of the back row just before the video cut away

Great event

definitely take a close look and do tests with the weight chain drive in place of the pedal system

You may have said it best on Day 1 that the input pulley doesn't have to be solid metal. It feels too heavy and almost as if it's dragging the flywheel. Deceleration is faster than acceleration.

Love that you did this weeks videos, would love to be able to travel to see in action/person, unfortunately i dont see that happening for myself😢

@docmarbles4369

9 ай бұрын

Ive been huge fan for while but would love to meet you in person, you need more rest like myself, what can we do?

🎉Such a fan bloody tas tic meet up, love it, I want to make my own Yonis

There was a fabulous device made to help musicians get in sync with clicks, called the Russian Dragon, by Jeanius. It indicates if you are draggin’ the beat, or rushin’ the beat.

I think putting the pedal link at a slightly bigger radius on the wheel will give you more power. And also less inertia in the fly wheel will give you better control over the tempo.

I would add an eddy current brake to the mass flywheel, also for emergencies. There's a lot of energy in it. If you think this idea further, I could also imagine an eddy current-controlled speed limiter to keep the beat constant.

@roboman2444

9 ай бұрын

Eddy current speed limiter (aka an electromagnetic retarder) would work great for managing tempo. Martin would just pedal as fast as he wanted to, and the tempo would stay perfectly locked at a maximum. Very easily doable with an Arduino, mosfet, and electromagnet. Alternatively, he could also create a mechanical braking system that is electronically controlled. Could easily just take an old bicycle rim brake and apply that directly to the flywheel, with a servo tugging on the cable (through a stiff spring).

@HilmarLange

9 ай бұрын

​@@roboman2444 I'm thinking of a centrifugal governor. You could set a maximum speed purely mechanically, without a computer.

@EddieSchirmer

9 ай бұрын

a precision RPM motor would eliminate the need for the pedal entirely. he would need an RPM selector dial that can tell the motor what speed it needs to be at. using gears and pulleys and ratios to get exactly the mechanical advantage he needs. the pedal is a great idea, but its not necessary in my opinion. it coudl however be useful for helping the motor to change tempo or to start up the machine as a whole, but then if the motor can take over and maintain exact RPM speeds Martin can then just Play the instrument, and concentrate on the music, rather than if his foot is exactly timed or not. i can see Why he wanted the pedal though, because moving a limb is an instinctive way to create a Beat timing, however, the motor would be able to do that way easier, and much more precisely, which is what he wants, precision... keep in mind, that Most of the music machines at the Museum are powered by a Motor, so he isnt breaking any sort of intrinsic mechanical rules, but following a logical progression form human power, to electrical power. i do not want to see him discouraged because he can not get his pedal to play tight. he could still keep it for the function i mentioned above, but he should not rely upon the pedal to play the machine.

@roboman2444

9 ай бұрын

@@HilmarLange Yeah that would work as well. Would it be precise enough, though?

@HilmarLange

9 ай бұрын

@@roboman2444 In any case, I would dare to try and build a small, mechanically controlled test model using a centrifugal governor. The attraction of solving everything purely mechanically would be irresistible for me. Next step: I think that the flywheel should overspin the needed speed. With the help of a clutch, the stored energy could be extracted and the resulting required rotational speed (bpm) could be regulated with the help of the centrifugal governor. There are still so many good ideas left to come up with!

Looks so nice there, I had been planning to come, but then time passed by, too busy to organise, and in the end: Covid stroke... (luckily almost recovered now) Hope to be there next year!

The timing was always my concern with this design because of how much the speed could vary. The concept is impressive, using a foot pedal to generate rotational force that is largely smoothed out by flywheel, but without the level of control either an electric generator or something similar that can provide a constant RPM you will always be varying the speed by some amount. You go too fast, then too slow, then too fast, and so on. Unless you get real good at keeping the pace but that seems like it would take quite some time. Maybe you could make two separate sources for the machine, use this foot pedal idea for the parts where timing doesn't matter like the marble lift and use a separate source that keeps time perfectly for the timing wheel which tells the instruments to play. Then you give the impression of using the foot pedal as a power source but don't have to worry about being in time so much.

Look up what's called a sprag clutch for your pedal power input so you're only applying power one way and the flywheel freewheels so the pedal does become a flywheel driven leg breaker. Sprag clutches are used in power transmission systems for just this purpose.

I was wondering what happened to that PC. Glad it finally made it

To properly test the tightness you need to measure sub-beat timing intervals too. I suspect the weight of the pedal assembly makes the first half of every beat faster than the latter.

The tempo needs an auto pilot mode in the later stages.

@latimer442

9 ай бұрын

By the time he's done, he'll have built a 5 speed transmission on it lol. Then just keep pumping until the gearing limits the max speed exactly where he wants it. Change tempo? Switch gears!

@oddball_the_blue

9 ай бұрын

That's the point of the governer - it'd act to regulate the output to a desired abd regulated speed.

@Avetho

9 ай бұрын

@@latimer442 Marble Machine, featuring Tremec T-5 tempo control XD

@StuffandThings_

9 ай бұрын

@@latimer442 Next thing you know he'll be adding a steam engine for greater consistency and so that he doesn't have to pump the pedal... tbh that would be kinda cool

@StuffandThings_

9 ай бұрын

@@latimer442 Na, continuously variable transmission would probably be better for this. Imagine having like a dial you could turn to change the tempo!

There is an actual value in letting people from "outside" the project, you get someone who spots something you missed. This is more than ever an open project.

He is testing the flywheel with no load on it. It will be fairly easy to over shoot like that as there is precious little dragging it down. With the load of the entire machine in play he will be fighting to keep it up to tempo and overshooting will be of very little concern.

With some practice, I think you can address the overshooting issue by applying weight on the upstroke (braking force) and removing your weight on the downstroke. Alternatively add a toe hook so you can apply braking force on the downstroke

I suggest a lattice structure for the pedal. You have plenty of space underneath for it. With a lattice structure you can arrange braces in different orientations to counter sideways flexion and torsion also. You could go with 4 angle irons jointed with welded 6mm rods.

You could add a digital indicator that displays the tempo and is updated once per rotation. It would be a simple Arduino project if you could not find one on the market. This would help with the overshooting

If one stomp is one rotation, then surely you should be focusing on the stomp rather than the dial? Or is there something you can do with gears to limit the speed of the dial? So you can pump the fly wheel to full speed and not worry about timing?

Might it be easier if the click happens at the top of the pedal travel so you hear the timing difference before you press so you can make an immediate force adjustment ?

Trying to control tempo and phase together is why the "overshoot" if not trying to match the phase of the click-track, you could reach an exact tempo with much less overshoot.

I think if you matched the phase of the bpm to the machine rather than trying to get the machine in phase with the already existing beat it would be a lot easier

When Martin saw he was installing the 'lock washer' backwards, it became obvious to me that the tabs needed to be bent over to 'lock ' the bearing. It's the same locking procedure used when setting the tolerances when installing car wheel bearings.

I heard pain in your voice, Martin. Don't give up, you are very close.

You could regulate the pedal movement similarly to elevators, which use counterweights to balance the static load of the mechanism. Create a foot pedal lever such that the anchor point is a pivot with an extended counterarm. An adjustable counterarm weight would push up on the linkage during the offstroke, smoothing out the rotation. Alternatively, you could attach the end of the counterarm to another flywheel which would act as a regulator.