I read an article years ago that said the engineers at Anschutz conducted a similar test and had determined the optimal distance of travel down the bore for a .22 rimfire bullet was 17.5 inches.

@KolyaNickD

Ай бұрын

But 14 inches for a subsonic

Doing this with Aguila SuperMax ammo that runs closer to 1800fps would be interesting!

Man, it would've been awesome to get a sound meter in there. I'd bet anything past 30" probably starts to sound like it was suppressed. Great test

@nativewarrior5052

Жыл бұрын

I've got a Remington 511 Score Master with a 26" barrel, shooting CCI standard velocity at 1060fps (measured with magneto speed) is soo quiet. You don't need ear pro

@shootinbruin3614

Жыл бұрын

@@nativewarrior5052 I believe it! I have a 24" rimfire and even with high vels it's fine out in the field. I can only imagine what a barrel twice as long with subs would be like

@jamesfairmind2247

2 ай бұрын

True, even a 22 inch sounds almost as quiet as suppressed

I went with a 22” barrel and it’s a tack driver. This video gave me a lot of information as for barrel length. This is the mechanical engineering persons scientific research….I’m liking these videos a lot

@MDTTAC

9 ай бұрын

Thank you!

@kris198720

Ай бұрын

I have sawnoff rossi from 18 to around 10" with silencer which makes is as long as it was from factory and i dont see any drift or something like that at around 100yards which i tested it...but with subsonics you propably hear neighbour 3 next 3houses from you hiting nails with hammer than this toy :D

Love these tests. Keep them up 👍🏾

Great technical insights, exactly what I was looking for, thanks 👍

Very interesting. When looking at the barrel lengths where the velocity peaks appear, it's interesting to note that the intervals are 10" apart. The initial push at 16". A second push at 26" & a 3rd at 36" with the last smaller push at about 43". Since there is only one charge which produces one pressure event, it appears that the subsequent spikes must be reflections of the initial pressure event which are reflected off the base of the projectile, travel back to the breach then, reflect back to the bullet again. Great video & test guys. Really appreciate the effort & expense.

@elonquemattheson6151

9 ай бұрын

Those "peaks" are so small that they could be explained away as artefacts from the ammo. Remember that the standard deviation is 8 fps on these.

@rotasaustralis

9 ай бұрын

Yes, I think your reasoning is correct however, I've seen two other lots of testing done whereby they progressively shorten the barrel &, similar results were measured. I've also looked at the number of overall samples & I think that the sample number is adequate to achieve a roughly stable enough SD to support a very generalized conclusion. Although I wouldn't bet my house on the reflecting wave hypothesis, I feel that combined with the other tests I've seen, there is a reasonable argument to support continued testing.@@elonquemattheson6151

great tests, keep them coming.

I read an article in a gun magazine 25-ish years ago where the same thing was done. They too concluded that max velocity, depending on ammunition used, was achieved between 16" to 20". The .22 LR just doesn't pack enough powder to sustain combustion beyond the 16" (approximate) point. Without sustained combustion, peak pressure falls off rapidly, as does velocity.

@mikerehner8290

3 ай бұрын

This test just showed that velocity doesn’t fall off rapidly.. atleast not in this barrel.

I too, am very surprised by the results of this great test. Thanks for all your work in doing this and showing us the results.

Very interesting video, it certainly gives a shooter perspective on how much barrel lengths matter, or don’t!

Should have tested also high and hyper velocities

@TrueBlueYZ

Ай бұрын

Seems crazy to go through all that and only test standard velocity. I would bet HV 22LR's would see velocity gains at longer barrel lengths.

Just stumbled onto your channel, got a new subscriber here, nice test!

That's a neat test!

I always love these videos! I can't wait to see the one for 5.56!!

Mind blowing . Great idea and test. My next chassis will be MDT just to support your time . Thanks again.

4:54 that 30 inch barrel group is pretty impressive. I have a Savage bolt action rifle with a 19 inch barrel and Savage semiauto with a 20 inch barrel that are really accurate. It's more me and my mindset, and the ammo used, plus a clean rifle, that make the difference. Both rifles are capable of consistent, very close groups. Great video. The information in it is priceless. Very well done. What this video proves is that the rifle makers know what they are doing. You don't need a thirty inch barrel rifle to be accurate. I have to admit. Every time they cut the barrel, I winced. Because that was a very high quality rifle barrel. But research required the sacrifice.

Greetings from the sunny south Okanagan, thanks for the very interesting video! The results were not what I'd expected to see for sure. Stay well.

really wish you would have tested more variety of 22 lr ammo. still a very cool test!

Very interesting. I wonder how harmonics played in the length of the barrel.. It would have been nice to see the shift in the groups as you trimmed the barrel…

The SD didn't really change that much. Your averages are still a flat line through the middle of the noise. The 10x per cut were still a relatively small sample size, but I get not wanting to shoot 50x per cut. I think the most impressive thing is the barrel quality was very good and the bullet was just coasting out and not getting squibbed.

such a cool test bench of barrel. never seen anything like that

Great test!

Always love these testing videos you guys do! This one leaves me scratching my head on what’s ideal now.🤣🤣🤣

Very cool and informative video - thank you! To summarize, 22 LR ammo will typically expend its burnt powder in 20” barrel lengths, and achieve max velocity at the muzzle. So anything longer than 20” is likely attributed to added bullet stabilization over longer ranges shot to achieve the desired accuracy (which varies over distance) at pre-determined yardage shot.

I would be interested in seeing the crowning process and tooling.. more 22lr content please!.

Only need I have for a long barrel is it is more ideal for peep sights, giving me finer sight adjustment value and easier focus on front sight.

Great work. I have a couple of wacky rifle ideas, not expecting anyone to try it just some things i thought of while watching this video. 1 Rifled smoothbore barrel combo. Basically, the first part of the barrel is rifled to provide the spin, followed by an extra section of smoothbore. My theory is that there would be enough rotational energy in the bullet part way down the barrel and the extra section would facilitate additional acceleration of the projectile. 2 Pre-spun smoothbore. Here an electric motor would spin the cartridge before firing through a smoothbore rifle. Without rifling more of the energy would be used to accelerate the bullet which already has the necessary spin for stability.

Good testing! Got you another subscriber!

@MDTTAC

Ай бұрын

Thanks for watching and we will make sure to keep the content coming

I enjoyed this video. I'd like to see another with the 22 WMR CCI 40 grain SG load.

Inconclusive results. My favorite.

Awesome video.

I would be interested in seeing the crowning process and tooling.

Speed is fine however accuracy is the point for all rifles

Great info

Det or def wave may have had first or second harmonic at that length, really worth remembering

As some other viewers have commented, I would really like to see this done with a variety of ammunition. I would recommend using hypervelocity like stingers as well as ammo designed for short barrels like the federal punch.

i was hoping 600 fps too. Amazing.

If you have a longer barrel, you need larger cordite grains. Otherwise, your pressure rise is wasted by peaking too soon in the combustion cycle/bullet travel. .50BMG doesn't have slower powder because it's wider. It has slower powder because the barrel is longer. For those who don't believe or know this, try some fast-burning pistol powder in someone else's .50BMG-chambered rifle. From a distance. See how your m.v. is.

The groupings are also a factor of "barrel whip," the tendency of a barrel to resonate as the projectile passes through it.

I love these tests. Please test a 22-284 starting with a 52" barrel and cutting an inch each time. I think this being a pretty big overbore 22 centerfire may yield some interesting data as there is so much powder to burn for such a small 0.224 bore diameter. I like that you cleaned up the crown and threads after each cut on this test. I had read somewhere that 16" barrels were optimum for the 22LR so that part of the data was not surprising, I was surprised it maintained as much velocity as it did with all the extra length.

Right now have a 17" for my 22. Looking for a 20" one right now.

I am pretty shocked by these test results, after seeing the results with 308, I would have thought the velocity would increase like it did with the 308. Really interesting stuff. I love the tests you guys do.

@ceoelektronika8604

Жыл бұрын

A) Compare the volume of powder with the volume of barrel B) Is the cordite sized for a longer barrel, or is it formulated to burn more slowly?

@michaelhill6451

Жыл бұрын

@@ceoelektronika8604 Yeah, for sure powder selection will make a difference. I have doubts that it would be enough of a difference to explain the polar opposite results we are seeing here compared to 308. It would be a cool thing to test though.

@randomidiot8142

11 ай бұрын

​@@ceoelektronika8604we haven't used cordite in nearly a century. .22lr powder is close to a few different kinds of smokeless shotgun/pistol powder.

@cameronlamb7274

10 ай бұрын

@@ceoelektronika8604cordite? It’s called smokeless powder nobody has used cordite since the 1960’s.

@cameronlamb7274

10 ай бұрын

.22lr is loaded with a relatively fast burning powder much like a pistol/shotgun powder that after about 16 inches you will start to see velocity drop by about 32 inches their is hardly any gases behind the bullet and you get a suppressor effect.

You better take an insight look by those who are producing .22 lr sportrifles for olympic shooters for centuries like Anschütz, Walther, Steyr and Feinwerkbau

Did you guys do any kind of break in before the video. The velocity will change as the bore gets coated with the lube on the bullets and that takes more shots the longer the barrel is.

very interesting testing.......

I saw this video just when you posted it. As YT is lately it keeps on bringing videos to your feed even if you saw it already. Anyway, as everybody with practical and a little theoretical knowledge of barrels and projectiles know, barrels differ. You can get more than this variation in speed from two different barrels but the same length. If you chose another make of barrel it highest speed might be with a shorter or a much longer barrel. Also the type of ammo will also make a big difference. If you chose high velocity or even something like CCI Velocitor the highest speed would definitely be with a longer barrel like 22 inch or even more, depending on the make of barrel. There are just to many variables to test it all unless you get big sponsors for such tests. A late thanks for this video.

I couldn't help but wonder if you guys felt this was a waste of time. But it wasn't. This was exactly what I needed to see, well done.

@MDTTAC

5 ай бұрын

Thank you

If you watch "Smarter Every Day" video with the transparent suppressors, you can see a point where the pressure "sloshes" back and forth. I wonder if that is happening inside the barrel, and the velocities are affected by the wave sloshing forward or backward..

I went with a 26" Bartlein benchrest barrel on my Vudoo for looks alone. Love the looks of a 26". 👍 But it does happen to balance perfectly as an added bonus.

@nativewarrior5052

Жыл бұрын

My Remington 511 Score Master has a factory 26" barrel, it's a tack driver and handles so well

@samw2768

Жыл бұрын

Bartlein are not 22 benchrest barrels. We don't use cut rifling in benchrest. The top barrels are button rifled and taper lapped

@Sagittariustoo

Жыл бұрын

@@samw2768 Take it up with Vudoo then as they told me it was a Bartlein benchrest barrel. All I wanted was a 26" barrel regardless of the type or brand; it shoots great is the bottom line for me. My favorite barrel is a Benchmark but they didn't stock it at the time.

@samw2768

Жыл бұрын

​@Sagittariustoo you take it up with them. I'm not the one that lied 😅. Bartlein barrels are not used in benchrest they are cut rifled and we use button barrels in benchrest. Wither shilen,muller,benchmark, or hart and they are all buttoned. Ask them why they lied to sell you a gun

@Sagittariustoo

Жыл бұрын

@@samw2768 At this point I don't care as I'm pleased with the way it shoots but I might contact Bartlein and ask if they make 22 rimfire benchrest barrels. If I do, I will let you know what they say. Or, do you believe Bartlein will lie also?

I think one factor that would affect the efficiency of the burn, the rate of expansion of the gas and how it builds/progresses (within the cartridge vs in the barrel) would come from the fact that .22 is a straight-walled cartridge and .308 is necked down. I would love to see some error bars on the initial plot of velocity as a function of barrel length rather than just having a second plot with the std dev. Also wondering what the instrumental uncertainty is on the chrono. At first I though the wave(s) might just be noise, but think there is definitely a trend. Would be nice to improve the robustness of your experiments. I think there is a lot of potential for taking things from interest/conjecture to real science!

Interesting................ thanks for sharing

Have a 17" on mine. Does great, thinking of the 12" one.

It all depends on the rate of burn for the gunpowder you're using. A hotter gunpowder can be efficient with a shorter barrel, but you have to be very careful not to overpressure the breach, or have too much powder which is wasted in the form of a large muzzle blast (fireball).

Thank you for a creative and most interesting video of the 22 caliber. There are 4 points that I am calling "nodes" or high points. They occur at 43", 36", 26" & 16". One would expect an increase in speed as the barrel gets longer rather than shorter but that is not what you found. The highest node occurs at 16". Am disappointed because I am saving my nickels and dimes for a 26" Vudoo which would only yield about 1060 fps. I had hoped for the most accurate shooting at 26" but that did not happen. Anyhow, again, thank you for sharing. Still saving my nickels and dimes and will probably go with the 16" barrel. Have to wonder what would have happened if you had gone in the opposite direction, starting with a 12" barrel then longer and longer. That, however, would have required a LOT of barrels. Please continue your research.

wish you would have tested it with hyper velocity ammo as well- Velocitor or stinger

Barrel time for the projectile can be an important consideration from the standpoint of accuracy. Small bore 3P shooters will run a shorter barrel with a “bloop tube” to minimize the effects of barrel movements(all disciplines)on bullet release but still retains sight radius(specific to 3P shooting). These disciplines are different animals but something to consider if your not shooting from a rock solid position.

@sofjanmustopoh7232

Жыл бұрын

Let’s say 1050 fps . That is 12600 inch per second On 18 inch barrel . Barrel time = 0.00143 second On 26 inch barrel . Barrel time = 0.00206 second A difference of 0.0006 second Your eye lid would not even travel 1/4 way in 0.0006 seconds

I think what might be the way to go is what I did. On my ar22 I ended up with a 16.5" barrel. The balance sucked so put a 7" extension on it. Doesn't make it shoot any different that I can tell, but it balances right in front of the magazine now. And 16" for close to optimal length.

How much of the velocity loss is comming from bearing surface friction as apposed to any sort of vacuum being pulled behind the bullet as its traveling down the barrel or is there not enough of a tight fit in the chamber to provide a vauum fit

This would be cool to revisit the data and use some basic stats test to determine statistical significance for the barrel lengths. Theres some online tools that are useful

Its actually a very well known fact in the br world that long 22lr barrels help lower sd/es due to friction.

I know you cannot keep cutting up barrels for every brand and type of .22 LR out there, but I would love to see the results of length versus velocity with the faster .22 LR offerings, such as the CCI Stinger, Aguila SuperMaximum, and the CCI Copper 22 21 gr. HV round. It would be interesting to see if the length versus velocity graph seen with standard velocity cartridges would be similar for the HV cartidges.

Interesting that there's a spike at around 26" because the Anschütz Olympic target rifles barrel length options are 25.9" and 27.1". It's interesting that there's only a difference of 20 feet per second between 30" and 18". A difference like that you don't really need to worry about. The barrel length can therefore be chosen to suit whatever style of shooting you intend to do. A longer heavy barrel is going to dampen vibrations and micro movements coming from the shooter like the stabilising rod on an Olympic bow. Sight radius is massively important for Olympic and other no-scope competitions. Along barrel will however increase the action time but only 1 millisecond per 12". With so many considerations it all depends on your intended use for that gun.

@cncmillman

Жыл бұрын

They list barrel length as 660mm and 690mm not sure if that is the actual length or just rounded. 660mm is 25.984" so not sure if the 25.9" you listed is actual. Would be interesting to know why they settled on these 2 barrel lengths.

Which ammunition did you use? FPS/grains, etc.

Bore volume on longer barrels doesn’t seem like it’s significant enough to reduce pressure enough to have friction overcome pressure. Don’t know what bore pressure is when the bullet is 1” from muzzle on an 18” barrel, but let’s say it’s 8k psi. It’s been a while since I used quickload, but I remember center fire pressures being 10-20kpsi when the bullet has almost exited. Assuming 22lr is lower pressure. 2.5x longer barrel = 2.5x less pressure, which is still 3k psi, which I believe is the pressure high end air guns operate under.

@michaelhill6451

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, 22 LR has a maximum pressure of 24,000 PSI which is pretty low for a rifle. Also, 22 LR is a tiny bullet. It therefore has a larger surface area to volume ratio compared to other calibers and should slow down more easily. Also, the bullet diameter is tiny and so is the area the gasses are pushing on. At 3,000 PSI we are only talking about 114 lbs of force being generated by the propellant gasses.

@ceoelektronika8604

Жыл бұрын

You need to match your cordite to your barrel length. Long barrels need a slower burn. It's why artillery has cordite that looks like quarter-rolls of pennies in size. The key is to match your burn to the length of the barrel.

Depends on the burn rate of your powder. still pushing along the entire length of barrel

Interesting video ! There are so many variables and personal needs it can be mind boggling ! What are you going to use it for and how accurate and effective do you need it to be would be my first question !

@MDTTAC

3 ай бұрын

Very important questions to ask first

May be you should do something like this cal by cal.

have yall done videos like this for the other common calibers?.308, 5.56, .270??

My uploaded 22 chrono test series showed quite clearly that modern 22 ammunition is optimized for 16 inch barrel

What ammunition was used? It didn’t seem consistent to me on it’s speed.

It all depends on the ammunition. Try powder coated bullets, they are far slipperier than normal wax or grease coated bullets. Also try using slower powder. 22lr powders vary some. I use Hodgdon HS 6. But if I were to develop a cartridge for a 40" barrel I would obviously go with a slower powder.

I wonder if the results might be different with higher power loads that advertise speeds between 1400 and 1700fps. Maybe consider trying the test again with subsonic, standard, and hyper velocity loads.

I tend to be between 12-16 inches when all said and done (balasted to ballance) lock time becomes the main factor integrating the human ellement in the system, especially in multiposition stressful comps.

I don't see a microphone attached to your labradar so that means you're most likely using the doppler function to capture the speeds. This is the least accurate way to use the labradar and could have affected your results. Neat test in any case. I would have predicted a much more significant speed loss.

These scientific test are great videos! Real fun to see and learn! Thanks MDT!

would be interesting to do in 22 Win Mag or 17HMR again... =)

FWIW, when I shot big timey 22 BR, my smith (Gordon Eck) would choose barrel length based on where the tightest portion of the bore was. Among other things

@samw2768

Жыл бұрын

You'd be 100% correct. We also use button rifled barrels not cut rifled. This test proved absolute nothing except looking stupid as hell and wasting ammo.

It´s been known for decades that 18" to 20 " are the most efficient barrel lenght for the .22 Long Rifle cartridge. Longer barrels are just to gain distance between the (open ) sights.

I will subscribe to see if you do a video on .243 I would like to know if 16inch barrel is too short for .243 and if so what exactly is lost velocity accuracy etc.

more 22lr content please!

Can you talk about the sound profile?

Longer barrels have more time to push the lead than short barrels do but yes they add more drag so I'm interested in what you find as a good length. Thanks

How quiet was the extra long barrel? I had read that extra long (28"+) .22lrs are almost suppressor quiet when fired with subsonic ammo.

love it. answered my research question. Thanks! SCIENCE! lol

Nuts crazy.. But Very interesting

Very cool...but why did it slightly gain speed @26 inches?

What magazine are you using?

what ammo did you use

That tells me, and I have a theory, that the powder is actually burning erratic. I think all powder does, and my theory is due to graphite coating thickness variance on modern treated powder. It would be interesting to see non-flash-deadening powders.

Short barrel and heavy steel suppressor is the way to go. Use the Ase Utra.

Im here trying to decide with I want the CZ 457 Jaguar 😅

Do 6mm ARC next.

I've known for a long time 16" is the sweet spot because all the powder in sub sonic is burned up at 14" and 16" for high velocity loadings.

@L.V-Rider

5 ай бұрын

Depends on the barrel. some have the highest velocity for sub-sonic ammo between 18" and 20". High velocity ammo reach highest speeds at about 22". Remember, when the powder is burned off, the pressure does not just disappear, it gradually (for barrels) reduce.

So 16 to 20" are best for velocity. Have a 16, 17 & 20" for my 10/22.

You need 4.5 inches of barrel to stabilise a .22LR and 16.5 inches to get optimum velocity it’s suprised me to see the velocity slowing down past 17 inches

Not surprised that velocity went up as the barrel got shorter, but it's not all about speed. I would have liked to see a larger number of shots with SDs as the barrel was cut shorter. As long as the velocity spread is low, long range performance will not change much even if there is a slight velocity change. I would even argue that velocity spread is more important than average speed. On the other hand, it likely will have the most consistent velocity at the length with the highest velocity.... But we missed the opportunity to prove it. Maybe next time guys.

@L.V-Rider

5 ай бұрын

It is proven by bench rest shooters that longer barrels 22" and more, produce the lowest extreme spread and standard deviation but the speed of sub-sonic ammo always a bit lower.

@PracticalTacticalAccuracy

5 ай бұрын

@@L.V-Rider Saying it and proving it is two different things. I'm not saying you're wrong and I tend to agree, but it can be difficult to prove factually given the variables involved.

How about .50 bmg?

I didnt hear distances that this barrel was shot at these lengths. I have a Remington 572 with a 23.5" barrel and I can tell you its accuracy at 50 yds sucks but at 100 it kicks ass. I also have a Ruger precision rimfire with a 20" Shaw barrel that is very accurate at 50 but drops off at 100. Now I wasnt running high dollar ammo through them. I used CCI SV in both. Anybody know why?

@MDTTAC

3 ай бұрын

All sorts of things could be happening in this case, it is hard to tell for just this information. Also, its a pump action rather then a bolt action which we are familiar with. Ammo could also be playing a factor like you mentioned.

@mlone7

3 ай бұрын

@@MDTTAC A pump locks up solid like a bolt action. A bolt is the better for shooting competition IMHO. I will say that the pump has always been that way at 100yds. Its not near as ammo sensitive as what I see with bolts. What I have come to realize is you can throw a ton of money at these bolt actions, only to be at the mercy of the ones that load the bullets. With me it comes down to it being more work and not much fun because of it.

Interesting that you used subsonic. Why not hivel ?. I have Brno model 4 with 26 1/2" barrel. Standard velocity of advertised 1255 of most brand ammo. I am getting 1280+/- 10 depending on brand. Interesting fun though.😎

@DadWil

10 ай бұрын

had the same question as you... would have like to have seen the results with high velocity rounds... If your gonna wack up a 300 dollar barrel at least run 300 dollars of ammo through it