Re: the stereo/mono point, you can mitigate this a bit by using a utility plugin (e.g. the gain plugin in Logic) to mix in mono while using headphones. It's a great way to expose flaws in your mix that you might not have noticed if you only mix in stereo.

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

You’re so right!! I don’t know why I didn’t mention this 🤦🏻‍♂️

Harman target actually makes headphones somewhat sound like neutral speakers in a well-treated room. The peak and dips of the target is caused by the difference between human head/ear and measurement microphones, not just preference. When the sound of a flat speaker reaches your eardrums, it's not flat anymore due to the shape and direction of your ears. A neutral headphones FR is inherently different from a neutral speakers FR since they interact with human head/ear differently. Harman target has some preference factor while diffuse field (another target curve) aims to create the sound of flat speakers on headphones and it's not flat as well.

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the info! I didn't know some the intricacies in the harman target, good read :)

Very cool content man!!! Congrats! I found you out las week and I can’t stop whatching! I loved the whole recording with sm57, tutorial, final result…

The contrast between the monitors and headphones was interesting. More space/ambience in the monitor mix. I couldn't say one was better though. Cool vid 😎

Such an interesting topic, I've been scripting a video of the a similar notion lately as in the past month I've throughly enjoyed mixing on headphones again. I can definitely relate to them being more dramatically wide but I also think the wideness has allowed more creative decisions to flow through despite them sometimes needing to be dialed back after the fact. Great video, dude - Thanks for sharing!

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

Interesting! Yeah I think I've experienced a similar thing, sometimes the most inspirational production decisions don't correlate to the "best" mix, but you can always adjust later :)

At least two things to consider: 1) headphones geared to the professional market (there are a half dozen between about $50 and $200) are almost always flatter than monitors located in all but professionally tuned rooms - this is because there is no "room" in a pair of phones, so it's a perfectly tuned room. Therefore, use headphones to check for frequency response anomalies. 2) Headphones will always exaggerate stereo separation (need I say why?) - and this should be taken into account when applying things like stereo reverbs and delays.

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

Yeah the stereo response can really mess with your mix sometimes :) always too wide without reference speakers

@TickleHellmo

Жыл бұрын

I’d like to know why! Even though it’s a dumb question, I’m not sure I understand the implication. So when mixing with headphones, do you typically experience a wide image when it really isn’t there on say studio monitors? When I think of it, for headphones, I guess it might be because you have a driver pointed at each ear. This is different from when you have sound move past you once in a room, or more likely, several times depending on the space.

@gr500music6

Жыл бұрын

@@TickleHellmo Hi Luis. Yes, your last paragraph is it. What appears in the left ear cup does not migrate to the right, and vice versa. Whereas the sound from each monitor speaker actually reaches both ears. Imagine if you were deaf in one ear. In headphones you would only get one side. With monitors you would get both, although not ideally balanced. Because of the shape of our head, we can actually locate sound to a degree based on time of arrival and phase. But it's better with two ears. That can't happen in phones.

@nerdyneedsalife8315

11 ай бұрын

​@@gr500music6Aren't there headphones and plugins that simulate that stereo latency? Like taking a left signal and putting some of it in the car right earcup but slightly delayed? I know this still won't be as good as a monitor mix but it bridges the gap as they do more than normal headphones

i'm listening on headphones and the headphone mix just makes me smile every time it switches over, even in a blind test, i like how wide it sounds

Thanks so much for the great content! I've been using the Sony 7506/09 Headphones for 30yrs, I know them inside out but I still would never try to mix on them. I do however hear things that need to be fixed in the mix, using the phones... Keep up the excellent work! From surprisingly sunny yet still cold Ireland! ☘💪🏽👀👍🏽☘

I have a subwoofer in my monitor setup and it made the difference between the headphone and monitor mix very apparent. The headphone mix felt like things were just placed wrong, the bass wasn't hitting the subwoofer (which could also be because of my preferred crossover setting) and little details like where the emphasis was in the guitar or how the vocals matched the mix felt condensed, whereas on the monitor and sub setup the mix felt like it used more space more effectively, the bass hit the sub beautifully and the different sounds each felt like they had their own place with the right amount of space for each of them to shine but not overlap each other. Not to say either were bad, just that in listening both in headphones and monitors, the monitor mix and master was able to utilize space much more efficiently (which I still find to be a funny concept to talk about in audio). Very well done video with fantastic examples that were mixed beautifully, well done!

I used to mix on a set of heavily EQ'd Audeze LCD-X, then controlled the mix on a set of Focal Alpha 80. As much as I loved the headphones, you need to know them VERY well to be able to do a good job

I've been using CanOpener Studio by Goodhertz for monitor mixing. It's honestly pretty cool, the stereo imagine is much less weird and more like listening to monitors, which I think results in mixes that translate much better.

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

I'll have to check it out!

@andresvelazquez2360

Жыл бұрын

@@AudioHaze awesome! I was going to mention that same tool, as well as Sonarworks SoundID Ref to mitigate the frequency response issues. These two combined give a fair shot if headphones are your only option IME

@onetwo3088

Жыл бұрын

@@AudioHaze also check Realphones, it’s best option on the market! Before I use sonarworks and canopener, but realphones much better

The harman target is actually treble-recessed compared to “flat”. The bump you see in the treble is a measurement at the ear drum showing ear-gain. Your sundaras are very close to the harman target 😄

OMG I'm just starting to learn how to record and mix but I mixed a strings recording from our Irish group on headphones, and then played them on the car stereo and the highs from fiddle scratch (3000-6000 Hz) were very harsh and atrocious, and now that I've seen this video (THANK YOU!) I can see that the highs boost in the Harman curve you showed matches EXACTLY to the inverse EQ adjustment I had to do in order to get the recording to sound okay in the car. Well, I guess I split the difference, lowering that area 6 dB instead of 12, but anyway that graph was a perfect match for the problems in that mix! In all honesty, I struggle a lot with fiddle - mic angle is really sensitive, you need some room sound but the right kind and not too much, and you need to have scratch frequencies to hear articulation but it builds up really fast with multiple fiddles. Oh, and don't ban me, but I'm mixing all this in Audacity (lol), so that might give a clear indication of how not-seriously to take my commentary. Anyway, thanks!

Yeaaah I was waiting so long for your "non" review of the sundara :D These mini krk looks great and make me think a lot about the micro iloud :o I wonder how these would compare if you have the opportunity one day ;)

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

Maybe some time! I’ll have to check those out :)

Hmm the material is great bro, soo i listen both and to be honest i dont really know which one is "Better" , i only mix podcast so far, i need to learn more, please keep educating us Thank you!

Great video idea. I do a lot of rough mixing on headphones and clean it up on monitors. Just easier with a baby in the house.

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

Nice nice, maybe you could produce lullabies and kill two birds with one stone

@lupit1

Жыл бұрын

@@AudioHaze fr

I just got my new focal clear. Now my setup is Yamaha HS8 + Focal clear. Before that, I own a Beyer 1990p , it's a very V shape headphone. Usually I mix everything on HS8. But when I want to fine tune it (especially EQ) , I always do it on headphone, because I found that my headphones is more true to the mix since my room isn't audio treated. (Yeah, even though my Beyer is very V Shape) , and a very hard to drive headphone , powering it from Scarlett 2i2 means the transient will not as good as (far) from using proper headphone amplifier. Tried using high end tube headphone amp , and it's sounds very good in transient and everything, and sounds more balanced. I always found that the mix on HS8 (in my room) will sounds muffled on every headphone/iem/car spkr etc :)) , that's why I fine tune it again. But now I have focal clear, it's much balance sound from 1990p and it's very easy to drive. I hope it will help me got better on mix. But yeah, tried sundara and couple hifiman headphones, they are treble forward.. my favorite was LCD X 2022 and focal clear.

amazing video! super helpful. I got a question I been thinking about buying the Sundara but not sure would you record them? I produce trap / rnb / reggeton beats.i know a guy who made a video here that says he loves them and he's got the focal shape monitors that how he mixes with sunder and focal. help me out lol after listing to your mixes I trust your opinion

i often mix with headphones then i will give it a rest then comeback again listening bu this time using monitor speakers . really helps e to know how my headphones work and ofcourse really helps me to translate the mix i wanted across all listening equipment

Great thanks for your Comparison, what is the best choice for singing : KRK Monitor with audio interface or using the Speaker JBL PARTYBOX 100 ?

Super early but I gotta go to bed so I'll just comment saying I love your content and work you put into it

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

Ahh thank you so much that’s so kind!

Great video ✅

Wow. The vocals on phones seemed kind of synthesized. 😮 thanks for this heads-up! ❤

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

huh weird! Too me they're just brighter :)

Helpful stuff. Thanks!

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

Glad I could help!

Can you do an SM7B only mixing tutorial too?

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

That would be super cool!

I think in budget setups headphones are just better being cheaper, no acoustic treatment needed, and way easier to correct. I recomend the Morphit by Toneboosters.

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

Totally :) less work for the room

@theiammike123

Жыл бұрын

And Morphit is free.... in a sense. Cuz its demo version is fully functional. 👍

What i do when mixing in headphones is on reaper i use a monitor fx of an eq where i have flattened my HD58x headphones to IEF Neutral which is a flatter Harmon target with less bass tuned by crinacle.Then typically i just listen back with the mono button in the master track in reaper. its very useful to have a less coloured signal for mixing. I used the AutoEQ repository adapted by a community member to IEF Neutral.

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

That definitely would help! I used sonar works for the longest time to even out my earbuds, to be honest I was always shocked hearing the SW tuning and the default m30x FR, MAJOR difference there

@alejandroperez8285

Жыл бұрын

I'm very interested in that technique, but I don't think I understand it that well from your commentary. Could you please explain to me exactly how you do it? Thank u :s

@barchel

Жыл бұрын

​​@@alejandroperez8285k so in my daw of choice, reaper, it has a monitor effects panel where it doesn't get bounced to the render and is processing specifically for the monitoring output. In there I have an ew matching a profile of my headphones where I entered the values from an adapted version on the auto eq site. (The auto eq repository tunes to the Harmon target but in my opinion that has too much bass so I use the ief neutral version, you can Google it) the GitHub site has Instructions on how to enter a neutral curve into an eq, make sure you don't use pro q3 or if you do adapt the q values since pro q uses non standard q values. I use a free eq plugin called q range set to minimum phase 0 latency mode for the monitor fx flattening for my headphones. I hope that helps!

Good information

The environments are very different might as well mix in a 5.1 setup as many homes are set to this basic setting

It was a trip listening to this on HifiMan Sundaras

Ricky, this tune is awesome!!!! Did you play acoustic and record this?

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

Yeah! You can see the whole process of recording it in the description :) and the full cover!

The monsters mix is perfect

I understand the quirks of headphone mixing yet even the best so called monitor speakers color the sound, not to mention that even the best acoustically treated rooms color the sound so it is still the least destructif methode to check the mix in various environments🤷🏻‍♂️🙏🖖

What do you think about Soundid?

You need Goodhertz CanOpener Studio for the headphones.

The headphones might be lyin' to me right now while I listen to both mixes on mine, but oh the sweet, sweet lies of the cans :D

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

The whisper of sweet sweet lies lol

Have you tried the Neumann ndh 20? Any thoughts?

Vocals sounded fantastic on the Monitors. On Headphones, the vocals sound like when you detune a synth too much and start to hear the individual voices breaking up. Likely due to the exaggerated stereo field you get with them. I liked them both, but those were my thoughts on the vocals. BTW I wanted to compliment you on this production, those hums from the vocalist sound so angelic! Beautiful stuff.

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

Interesting! Another comment said the vocals sound synthesized in the headphone mix, I think you're right, it must be that stereo spread starting to break up that unity in the vocal takes

I like the headphone mix in general because everything is boosted properly I can hear things better while listening with headphones but the monitor mix sounds a bit clearer like it was recorded on a condenser or brighter microphone but is too low to hear on headphones

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

I think the brightness must have been a product of the presence boost in the sundaras

I'm not really a speaker person (that may cahnge in the future) but I finally stopped buying cheap headphones that break easily and don't help me know how loud to make my voiceovers and just got a Audio technica ath m20x wireless and it was the best thing I ever purchased I use it not only for creating also to listen to music and videos I'm mad it took me so long to buy one

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

Audio Technicas are solid! I used m30xs for half of this channels life

Actually struggling to find the “perfect” headphone. Yamaha hs8 monitors work very well for me in a good room but I’d need the equivalent to them but as in headphones. Most closed backs seem to have midrange scoops and bass boosts meanwhile open backs have little low end and can’t be used super well when recording with a mic. Any suggestions? I love flat sound…

@Justandybrown

Жыл бұрын

I’ve tried the sundara and Sennheiser hd560s. The sundara sounded a lot nicer overall but had little bass and they would distort when played at loud volumes, they were also very comfy. The hd560s sound super flat and crisp and still have good bass(especially for an open back) Another product i got recently is slate VSX which is super interesting as you can emulate the sound of cars and studios. The only con I’ve noticed is that although the bass feels realistic for the most part, you still don’t “feel it in your chest” like a real subwoofer

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

Yeah its hard! The HD650s are awesome, and Audeze just made a production headset as well, they're pretty insane

@kyveriver4316

Жыл бұрын

@@AudioHaze I had to return the HD 650 cuz I barely heard any bass... I used it with an audient id4 mk1 so maybe I didn't have enough power? Also what's what productions headset name? :D Also, what about some closed back alternatives?

Personally I find the opposite in my mixes, in regards to stereo width on headphones vs speakers. Panning things comfortably on speakers then going to headphones, the placement is much more obvious. A panned hi hat might sound nice on speakers, then you go to headphones and it's like 'ouch, there's a hi hat in my ear'. For the same reason that hard panned old music sounds fine on speakers but is painful on headphones. For me, I'm checking my speaker mixes on headphones.

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

Nice technique! Sort of like adjusting the mix to the extreme and dialing it back if I understand properly :)

SoundID by Sonarworks for both headphones and speakers/room correction.

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

Yep, love sonar works! Definitely helps but doesn't mitigate all of a headphones characteristics (stereo spread, etc.)

Headphones do lie! I wonder how Waves' room emulators help in this regard? I think they call it NX and I got it as a freebie when buying 2 other plugins but I've yet to try it.

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

Never tried! To be honest I've never been convinced personally.

wow didnt know my headphones were cheating on me, superlux hd662evo, incredible sound quality..replaced them from my senheisser hd202 which i loved dearly but its jack started to have connection isues

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

Headphones are always tricky! Sometimes they can definitely be super flattering haha

good video! like

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

Thanks :)))

Danke!

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

Thank you Rainer!

@techmed-rainer

Жыл бұрын

@@AudioHaze You're welcome! Thank you for the nice video.

How about the headphone pre amp? LCDX AUdeze + Fiio Q7 = you won't go back to speakers... If you use your audio interface headphone pre amp, you won't ever have a great sound, they are all bad quality, they are made to record, not to mix

Shouldn't have been cheap headphones vs pro monitors?

I'm not entirely sure what to take from this. this has nothing to do with the headphones or monitors, and everything to do with how well you know those headphones and monitors. Also as an example of how a lot of what your saying here is just your issues vs a reality, when i mix in headphones, I'm much more likely to pan things less, because i find hard panned things on headphones to be bizarre and unnatural due to the lack of crossfeed. So if you find yourself panning things more in headphones, well, that's just a you problem. you're also ignoring the biggest and most obvious difference between headphones and monitors, which is the room. with monitors, the room plays a massive role in how things sound. with headphones, it doesn't. so for a lot of people, maybe most people, headphones are a much better bet for mixing. not to mention headphone correction software, which is great, while monitor correction software has kind of obvious issues. All that aside, i love your videos, don't mean any of this negatively, just stating my thoughts. end of the day, most important thing, is to check your mixes everywhere before sending it off haha

If you mix is darker it means your listening source has generally the opposite curve response...

@AudioHaze

Жыл бұрын

Not necessarily, the sundaras have a large presence boost in the vocal area, although that can most assuredly result in darker mixes to compensate, it can also prioritize those regions, resulting in a brighter mix. Not everything is a one-to-one equation wherein a frequency response directly correlates to the inverse mix. In my experience, if a tuning emphasizes a certain frequency range, you could very well color that range more than others.

Iirc the only ‘true’ flat headphones are the beyerdynamic dt 100/150. The big ugly grey/beige square ones. Even they’re not 100% flat, but more or less.

One thing. The reason headphones and speakers (and microphones) are not flat is because they need to be boosted in the frequencies humans are least sensitive to. If you had a perfectly flat headphone, it would sound like shit. Same thing with speakers. Certain people like certain headphones because of physiological differences in ear structure and differences in individual sensitivity. The Harman target is based on averaged preferences to sound signatures, and not necessarily sensitivities. I think if you need to mix on headphones, it's more important to be familiar with the sound signature of the headphone than anything else. What I mean is, learn what a good mix sounds like on those headphones. Compare your track to a reference track, and check with as many sources as you can, then listen how it sounds on your headphones. It doesn't matter if you're using Apple buds or Audezes, if you know your headphones intimately and know what a good mix sounds like, then you can get away with doing a lot more just on headphones.

Im suspicious of most mixing advice because 99% of what i hear from modern industry standards is mixed poorly to my ears. Comparing my own mixes to related artists on spotify is a bloodbath. I have probably 10 pairs of headphones and studio monitors and ive gone through a lot of phases and experiments to create my most usuable setup. My best results by far have been with open sennheisers from a proper dac/amp and an airwindows plugin that lets me do varying levels of crossfeed. I mix it as loud as the loudest id listen to it and give my ears a break frequently. Its really not rocket science. You just need precision tools that are properly setup and you can make whatever art you want without it being impeded by bad tech. I dont think too much information across the stereo field is necessarily a problem. There have been many trends in mixing and assuming the current trend represents the most advanced or best is incorrect. It certainly can be a preference but its not just better. Stereo allows for adding an extra dimension to the sonic sculpture. Personally i find monitors to be an inferior and less natural way of hearing that shape. When i test with monitors its for the same reason i test it in my car or on my phone: just to experience it. Its not a test of the mix to correct anything. I just wanna hear it for fun. The work gets done with the right tools only. If the mix is good to begin with it will always transfer to everything worth listening on. The main problem i hear with modern mixing is lack of awareness of soundstage. Instead of a space where sonic objects can exist and have dimension its a trend right now to add a primary flat image in mono over the entirety of the soundstage and make it v shaped which is incredibly harsh at louder volumes and tinny at low volumes. What i want to hear in a good mix is structure in the sound, and i want it to have a good balance between exciting and relaxing. That means awareness and active shaping of warmth and more exciting sounds like piercing highs. Ive worked with a lot of high end monitors and none of them, even in a tuned room, can project the sound in a way where i can visualize it as well as with open headphones. The reason its better if theyre open is because small amounts of room noise not linked to the fixed position of the drivers gives your brain better spatial awareness of sound. So instead of ths sound being inside your head like with closed phones you get a perfectly stable audio image projected in front of and around you

Why are these 3 inch monitors 300$ 🤣🤣🤣 wild

Never use headphones with color. The point of mixing is to have no added color. this is the problem with gear becoming affordable. everyone is an expert.

Try to remove the hat, maybe the sundara will not lie anymore

FFS can we all just stop with these rather pointless comparisons. To finish a recording for release you need to listen on headphones, monitors and crap speakers. You need them all. Also if I want to have an ultra wide mix so what? Dare to be different that’s what’s wrong with people today. No balls to create their own sound.