You should wrap the ceramic coated headers. Best of both worlds

@timothywhieldon1971

Ай бұрын

NO

@nefariouscj9791

Ай бұрын

Explain why please? ​@@timothywhieldon1971

@1magnit

Ай бұрын

Worst of both. The best way is the way the factory does it with sheet metal

@billysmith4278

Ай бұрын

This will overheat and burn off the ceramic unless it’s a very high temperature version. Inconel wrapped and spot/laser welded is the absolute best but comes with a hefty price tag.

@Mastermindyoung14

Ай бұрын

@@1magnit a small air gap and a piece of sheet metal is a terrific barrier

Not all ceramic coatings are created equal. In the USA we have Swain's White Lightning, and in the UK (maybe Europe?) there is Zircotec. Both are much thicker and significantly more effective than the thinner more paint-like coatings. Great to see a new video and the build progressing!

@bt619x

7 ай бұрын

Very true Cerakote is the bottom on quality for heat insulation. White Lightning is amazing. Techline is also pretty good with ID coatings too.

@noxious89123

7 ай бұрын

@@bt619x Honestly, I thought Cerakote was a purely decorative coating, was surprised when he said he'd had it put on headers.

@MotoS_Garage

2 ай бұрын

@@noxious89123 the exhaust coating really is purely decorative. it is very resistant and it does slighltly lower temp but that's it! you need a tbc coating for lowering heat radiation, which cerakote also makes in two versions, one is sand-golden and the other is called titanium red.

@m9bettt

Ай бұрын

Swain and Zircotec use a plasma spray process similar to what's found on passenger jet turbine blades. I'm still looking a place that can do internal plasma spray coatings in a 2.5 inch inner diameter pipe.

@th600mike3

25 күн бұрын

The coatings usually don’t do much because they’re so thin. Furthermore black has a higher emissivity than any other color- cerakote being flat black makes it worse. Cerakote is just useful for reducing corrosion while also being able to stand up to the heat. White on the other hand reduces emissivity or thermal radiation by its color. Crazy how many people in here have such staunch opinions but haven’t even taken the most basic physics course.

What I found when wrapping my headers on my car was the lowering of the radiant heat under the hood. Before I wrapped the headers, I couldn't get my hands close to the headers at all and anything else close to the headers was very hot. After the wrapping, I could get my hands quite close without feeling any great amount of heat. I checked the surface temperature before and after wrapping and it was only a few degrees different. The wrap will be the temperature of the headers but best of all it prevents the radiant heat which helps to keep the surroundings cooler. Thanks for your video. Best Regards - Mike

@jackdale9249

24 күн бұрын

actually it is "convected " heat NOT "radiated " !

@mikelaumaillier9271

24 күн бұрын

@@jackdale9249 Radiant heat. You feel the heat from the hot exhaust pipe not the heated air. Like the radiant heaters you buy in a store. The air under the hood is heated because of the radiated heat from the headers heating everything around them. Best Regards - Mike

Would be interesting to see a benchmark without any insulation

@davidanderson1230

29 күн бұрын

Was thinking the same after watching this. It would give an idea of the gains/benefits from the original standard non protected or coated header.

Ceramic coating is all nice but people forget, that thermal insulation depends on thickness. So that 0.5mm coating isn't as good as 3mm wrap. We tested both and with coating, everything around melted or degraded. After wraping exhaust everything is fine. The best heatshield is ceramic wool, wrapped in staineless shield. Protects better than wrap and metal shielding protects wool from enviroment.

@hotratz69

20 күн бұрын

The shiny steel wrap also reduced the radiant heat quantity from the surface of the glass wrap, Reducing radiant emission even more.

The wrap looks cool, but another concern you didn't mention is that it holds moisture, which accelerates corrosion of the underlying metal.

@gregjenkins2925

7 ай бұрын

moisture does not last long with plus 800c exhaust heat....

@darylmorse

7 ай бұрын

@@gregjenkins2925That's true, but if the 800C exhaust is constantly being splashed with water (which is not clean) and boiling it off, whatever is in the water will bake into the wrap. It's well-known that this leads to corrosion.

@gregjenkins2925

7 ай бұрын

@@darylmorse - Hi, as I only do sealed / tarmac / bitumen / ashpalt, track work, all sealed tracks, no off road stuff, I have not had this issue,..

@ParkerOviedo

7 ай бұрын

This is why you should ceramic coat then wrap over It Protects the metal from any moisture being trapped

@dimmacommunication

7 ай бұрын

It does unfortunately , this is why I would do only ceramic imho.

You can't compare both surfaces with a infrared measuring devise. Espacially on higher temperatures you will get a different result only because of the surface. A better result would be to use 3 heat guns, place close by at the header a peace of metal and measure who hot this will be after a few minutes. Nowadays there a way better system to protect the engine against the heat

@islandworks

7 ай бұрын

That would be a better test and more scientific for sure.

@MrLister30

Ай бұрын

exactly the emissivity of a given material will impact the IR gun reading. IR guns can be adjusted depending on the surface you are going to treat. A temp probe would be your best bet, they are often supplied with multimeters

@TomKunnas

Ай бұрын

Perhaps three heat gun and measuring outcoming air temperature from the collector...

@brucemclaren-

4 күн бұрын

We don't give af about the actual internal temperature of the manifold. We care about the heat that it radiates. That's what affects us

Please note! That “heat gun” (optical infrared pyrometer) doesn’t actually measure the temperature of the surface. It measures the infrared light being emitted from the surface and this amount of light is based of the emissivity of the surface you are measuring. In this case, you have shiny black paint (pigmented with ceramic particles) and silvery cloth. These substances will provide two very different emissivity values. You can never honestly prove that these painted on ceramic coatings are effective this way. A better way is to touch the surface with a simple digital meat thermometer. This will be the true surface temperature.

What about using both?

I was getting itchy just watching you pick up the wrapped header without gloves lol. The biggest downside to wrapping, plus the stainless ties are good at shredding your hands/arms if working in a tight engine bay.

@islandworks

7 ай бұрын

I know what you mean… those ties are deadly!

@jackdale9249

24 күн бұрын

just be carefull! lot less chance of 3 rd degree burns!

If protecting your plug wires is the concern - start using a silicone based set. Currently, high silicone sets have replaced wire sets that used to "require" a metal heat sheild at the boot due to plugs being just inches from (and nesting between pipes of) the exhaust manifold on "old" trucks like the Ram (circa 1990 Dodge). If further protection is needed, run the wires themselves through a heat wrap/sheath. Also, if you dont want oil getting into the wrap - stop pouring oil on it.

I did both. Cerakote and Ti Wrap

Nice test - I was expecting the ceramic coat to be better… Would be good to see you do this test without any finishes/wraps 👍

@sepg5084

7 ай бұрын

He only tested 1 brand tho. Sample size is too small. Also, the temperature involved is not representative nor is anywhere close to what is actually experienced by an exhaust header.

Just a tip, you should have tapped the other runners, because if your headers work good it will create a scaveging effect and suck cold air, I have tried something similar and it did made a lot of difference on my testing.

I've always used the wrap, but now f1 or wrc shielding is an excellent option. GFH products are top shelf.

I had my headers coated, but they said not to also wrap them as the reflected heat degrades the coating - that was some years ago, so not sure on todays condition. The real benefit of this is not for under hood temps but to keep the exhaust gas hot for maximum flow and thus best power.

I would like to see somebody test wraped ceramic headers.

cool video! I have cerakote and could not be happier. I have a toyota gt86 with a boxer 4 engine, I went Cerakote because of "oem" looks for the siren guys + I did not want the wrap to catch fire after soaking oil. I was so excited about installing the parts I totally forgot to measure the exhaust manifold temperature before/after

I'm just doing both,.and they actually recommend it.

I once left off the aluminum heat shield below the boot on my supercharged lotus exige. With just street driving, the rubber liner on the boot floor started smoking. Def a fire hazard that was luckily caught in time

I wrapped a set of headers once, within 2 years they were cracked. I just bought a set of ceramic coated headers because I don't want to go through replacing them again. Every company that makes headers will not warranty any header that has been wrapped for a reason.

That was very interesting, thank you. I'm not in need of either as I don't have a special car but I have a keen interest. Now I'm wondering what the graph would look like with an unprotected header and a header both coated and wrapped would look like.

I would think a white or silver coating would be better as it would reflect more heat back into the header. Black dissipates more heat by absorbing it from the higher temperature source and dissipating it into the lower heat area. Wrapping or reflective coating also increases a header's efficiency by keeping heat in the exhaust "slug", thereby lessening velocity loss due to cooling. You should have tested a bare header as a base point.

@me109aa

3 ай бұрын

Research black bodies, black is better at high tempuratures, think SR-71 or the bottom of the space shuttle.

@scottloose-8669

3 ай бұрын

@@me109aa Black is better for radiating/releasing heat. You want to keep the heat inside the header so white is best.

@coreyoliver3653

Ай бұрын

@@me109aa I second that : My dear, late, grandfather assisted the assembly of the thermal tiling underneath the Space Shuttle Enterprise ( in the late 70’s at Rockwell Int’l, Downey, California ). I don’t recall the nomenclature or the specs - but they definitely were black, and definitely prevented the occupants from being sautéd. 👍🏽

Wrap will also muffle things a bit, if you’re looking for some additional sound deadening. Usually I go with ceramic on track, wrap for street, for all the reasons you mentioned

@ParkerOviedo

7 ай бұрын

Your logic is backward Wrap should only be used on track. As It is a fire hazard if there is an oil leak they will soak with oil and you will struggle to extinguish the fire on the side of the highway.

loved the great idea! just don't know if the Heat Gun can manage the vertical upside down, thrus trigger the protection, varying the output that alters the result. Best to position no more than horizontal, or use 2 same gun w/ similar age.

The IR emissivity of the coating and the wrap are probably different and will skew the results. Any chance you could test with a thermocouple? Also, what about a wrap on a coated manifold? And "au naturel" manifold?

@noxious89123

7 ай бұрын

+1, the black ceramic coating is going to be picked up very well by the IR thermometer

@islandworks

7 ай бұрын

I would love to make a more scientific test and with other coatings. I’ll see if there is any more that I can fit into my next session

@hotratz69

20 күн бұрын

@@noxious89123 Color has nothing to do with a surfaces ability to absorb and radiate IR energy. A surface emissivity or condition does. Color is only affected by ultra-violet radiation.

my bro, INSTALL the headers, one side wrap, other side JET HOT coated, measure WHILST hot laps at a track....

Why not both?

@martinsuareznunez2620

7 ай бұрын

In the last part he said, “the best its use both “

Great video

I have both done in my car, its already been 3 years of daily traffic and some spirited driving, the wrap has started to degrade, but still does a good job and I guess the ceramic coating underneath should also break down due to friction with the wrap, but I will wait until it doesn't work anymore or I change the headers.

Without knowing the emissivity of the surface of the heat wrap and the ceramic surface, You can not get accurate temperature measurement with a spot radiometer. After the heat wrap, wrap again with aluminum tape and you will reduce the radiated heat by at least 50% The shiny alum tape will lower the surface emissivity greatly and retain more heat in the head (if that is the goal.

Appreciate your videos. Have a sub from Canada. Cheers

@islandworks

7 ай бұрын

Thanks!

what a pleasure looking at your video..with very complicated mental idea to simplify things!! i wish i have your competence..super. I will be awaiting your tube..Philip from Belgium

you should measure with a fan blowing on the surface to approximate the heatflux .. and radiant heat while driving

What if you do both?

Thanks for posting the video. Any concerns getting an IR temp reading on a glossy surface? As far as wrapping over ceramic coating, I've been told that would stress the base metal, and the lower grade (304 stainless and mild steels) would suffer from thermal issues fairly quickly, yielding shorter part life.

@islandworks

7 ай бұрын

My IR gun is probably not the highest grade one and I ended up shooting a few times for every interval. In the end the curve looked relatively smooth. I think the wrap will help on top of the coating, but am also sure it will destroy it…

What is you coated the pipes and used wrap on top? Any data on this ?

Did you make a measurement before any coating at all?

With header wrap you can actually touch the header quickly without getting burned, you can't do that with ceramic coat. I wrap my headers and super saturate them with high temp header paint until they are dripping wet, it dries like a cast and helps keep them from unraveling, also I use safety wire instead of the metal zip ties, the ties become loose after a while.

Any idea what the uncovered/treated header numbers were?

Interesting data. Would be good to have a baseline non wrapped or coated dataset. Jet Hot also allegedly does a good exhaust coating.

@me109aa

3 ай бұрын

Ya, would need the basline to say if anything is effective and if they were close or far apart on performance. B+ science fair work.

but how about that exhaust body? if you wrap it make the exhaust faster to broke?

Good introduction, thank you.... couple of notes: do not touch heat wrap without gloves, otherwise your hands will be very itchy, it has a fiberglass material. I would use a few metal zip ties around it, to make sure it doesn't come off. I can confirm the heat wrap does really works - have it on my Kawasaki Ninja for 5 yrs already, on summer day rides I don't feel heat on my foot rest, makes bike to ride more comfortably.

@johnnygeorgopoulos4072

Ай бұрын

Yeah titanium wrap is awesome stuff, I've run it on almost all my street bikes to keep that radiant heat inside the pipes, creating a scavenging effect to pull exhaust through, and to keep it off my legs while riding....it even pained me to do so, but I even wrapped the hand bent titanium Technical Sports Racing header I was running on my CBR1100XX, covering up all that gloriously blued, purpled, and golden titanium you could see peeking through the fairings hurt my soul, but my god was that thin walled titanium hot compared to the stock stainless header....but of course, I only wrapped up to the 60.5mm collector and then the rest of the full titanium on back to the Ladybird full titanium Tri-Oval silencer was left bare to color. 👌

But what was the temperature with no coating or wrap as a datum?

Done both and there is no comparison ceramic coating is far superior to wraps. just more exspensive.

Interesting video. That said, I think a better test would be to place a piece of sheet metal near the exhaust header, and measure the temperature of that (being careful not to accidentally measure the header temperature). This is assuming your main concern is radiant heat.

Just came across this video, nice test, perhaps not a true reflection of how they'll perform at running conditions but useful nonetheless, thanks for filming it I'm no expert, more bumbling amateur, but a couple of things 1) Using a IR thermometer, to get an accurate reading as I understand it, the emisivity needs to be taken into acount, so different colours and materials can effect the measurment. Better probably using a thermcouple or even better RTD 2) As to the usual old tropes about wrap rotting pipes, I'd add wrap can be waterproofed using recommended sealants, 2 I know are DEI and Thermotec who both produce paints to seal their wraps. Not advocating wrap over ceramic coatings I use both on motorcycles and never experienced problems. Currently re-wrapping some motorcycle headers which were wrapped for 8 years. The wrap eventually became brittle and fell apart, it had been sealed a couple of times. Pipes were like new underneath with no corrosion or degradation, no idea if I've just been lucky. Personally I'll stick to what I know and observe. Statements must be true because somebody posted it on the Internet, right?

Can I do both of them instead.

I had an e46 330ci with headers that I wrapped, which also had a leaky valve cover gasket. I didn't realize it was soaking into the header wrap and it caused an engine bay fire in a snowstorm. I managed to put it out throwing a bunch of snow on it but not before it melted surrounding wires and the valve cover above it doing a huge amount of damage. Another car I had years before that had shorty headers on it, ended up totaling it out and took the aftermarket parts off it to sell, the headers had cracked underneath the wrap. Not on a weld but in the middle of a tube, I'm guessing it trapped too much head on the metal at some point causing metal failure? Really not sure Not worth it if there's any chance of oil getting on them or if you care about the headers underneath IMHO, just be careful out there.

Colour of the surface that you are measuring will make a difference to the reading well as the angle . Nice job with your experiment mate.Its something I have wondered myself thanks for answering that.

@islandworks

7 ай бұрын

The IR type sensors seem a bit flimsy to me. On the other hand I paid only a few bucks for the one I have…

If I may suggest 2 key elements that I think are missing in your experience. 1 : what temperature does the heat guns produces at the exit and at a distance equal to the lengh of your 3 to 1 tube. 2 : what's the temperature reading you get from heating a similar naked 3 to 1 tube with the same heat gun? (that would be the reference against which you can compare the 2 others). Love the idea of your experience, though. Thanks for sharing it.

@islandworks

7 ай бұрын

There’s quite a bit more that could be done to make this more scientific rather than a practical test

would wrapped headers run even cooler at speed?

Surprised this is even debated in this day and time. It is well documented that wrapping will destroy tubes over time.

@daos3300

Ай бұрын

the discussion here was about temperature (albeit inconclusive). degradation of metal when using wrap is influenced by a number of other factors - not just heat - and is not a given.

I think best would be to place a temp sensor away from the headers or manifolds then close the hood without the wrap and with the wrap vs coatings. Since a laser gun checks the heat right where it’s produced and doesn’t tell us how much it radiates under the hood.

I used the fibre glass version on my lancia delta and you could just about touch the manifold. However you have to wrap rear to front otherwise the wind will catch the wrap. Also the wrap eventually ripps to shreds on pipes plus the damage it causes to the surface of stainless steel is also bad so i'd go for ceramic over glass fibre wrap. Not tried titanium wrap.

I worry that the surface of the ceramic is altering your readings.. more reflective than the wrap is

You can wrap the pipe bend next to the inner ignition coil, as this is the potential trouble zone

Test both together. Change wrap as needed or orefered

How about cost/ performance relationship. Ceramic cost more , but wrapping takes more time.

After finding out there are companies making aerospace grade thermal shields for headers and exhaust pipes, that’s the best and only way to go. Some manufacturers employ these on their cars, Audi/Lamborghini use them all the time as well as other European made vehicles.

@feluke8396

Ай бұрын

Ceramic wool and thin, stainless sheet that covers it isn't really aerospace insulation. Nonetheless, it's the best insulation you can make.

@BigThumpr1

Ай бұрын

@@feluke8396 it actually is aerospace insulation. I work for Pratt&Whitney, it’s used on lots of different components for our turbine engines.

@denwilden2748

29 күн бұрын

Using TBC ( Thermal Barrier Coating ) with Zirconia is the process used in Gas Turbine engine

What is uncoated and unwrapped result?

Emissivity?? Was this set correctly? The black glossy coating makes the infrared heat sensor change, did you check an emissivity chart for the surfaces you are measuring? Your test may show incorrect actual heat readings if the tool was not set correctly.

@islandworks

4 ай бұрын

This was not that scientifically done unfortunately. In the end I think there is very little difference between the two and to really make a difference a better method that this needs to be applied.

I’m hoping to get Kooks 2inch coated headers for my gen 2 coyote engine, greetings from Bulgaria

Really thought you were going to run both manifolds and measure it in the engine bay..

I know others have pointed it out but you cant get an accurate reading with a heatgun on a reflective surface. Now if you want to get a better reading take a piece of black tape and put it on both surfaces and you will get much better results. Now you need to actually mount them on the engine and run it that way because not only do you get head from the exhaust gasses but from the head and a heat gun cant get anywhere close to the temps an exhaust makes. I guarantee just due to the thickness of the wrap its going to beat ceramic all day.

I wrapped my headers and they smoked for about the first five or six drives until the wrapping had hardened then no more smoke

what about a combination of the 2?

What if you did both?

I coated probably around 7000 sets of headers with Techline coatings, so I have experience with all types of headers. There is nothing that will do more damage to headers than wrapping them. The wrap holds in so much heat that it burns the carbon out of the steel. The headers that have been wrapped and run very long look like dried mud because they are cracked so bad

A temp gun measures infrared. The colour and more important reflectivity make a big difference to the recorded temps. If its shiny the temp is wrong. Given time and temp there is only one genuinely effective radiant heat protection and that's a heat shield with an air gap. A formed fiber metallic material like the stuff used above catalytic converters with a 10 mm air gap minimum is loads more effective. You put standoffs on the pipework to mount the sheet , form the sheet to shape and bolt on. No contact, 15% of the price and by far the most effective.

Would like to have seen a test of both together, ceramic coating seems to be also a very effective rust protective on steel headers and wrap very effective on stainless without worry of excessive corrosion,

@islandworks

7 ай бұрын

I’ll see if I can do a quick one and then post in the chat

Maybe a dumb question but would doing both be bad ?

What if you do both

For me it looks like you should be measure the temperature with thermocouple on the same distance as your spark plug coils will be placed. So could be that at the distance be less heat with ceramic coating instead of wrap...

Coating will flake after a while. Would like to see data from heat shield or inconel.

Wrap always smokes on initial start up... it's perfectly normal.

I would be more interested in the temperature of the exhaust gases

More worried about the long term life of ceramic coating - especially on a turbo manifold. They can glow orange hot which means a lot of expansion and contraction - I'm not sure a ceramic coating is going to sustain that.

What about inconel 3 layer shielding (with ceramic center layer)?

@islandworks

7 ай бұрын

Thats for the next build!

By chance did you do a separate test with an uncoated/unwrapped header so we can compare how the heat tamped up and where it achieved saturation with the same heat source? I'd love to see the overall effectiveness of both approaches. Thank you fornthis video.

@islandworks

5 ай бұрын

Great point!

How hot would untreated header get?

When you said you moved the angle of the heat gun, I assume you mean you changed the angle of the thermometer 'gun' instead, right?

@islandworks

Ай бұрын

Yes

You need to make comparision betwen stock and coated too

Infrared thermometers don’t work on thermally reflective surfaces, you would be measuring something else the laser is bouncing off and then hitting. There is a more accurate way to test this, place some black tape or patch of spray paint where you are measuring or use a probe that makes physical contact.

what about wrapping the ceramic and testing if that is the best of both worlds? you mention you thought about it, why not give it go

What temp would bare metal be

I asked a few local shops and they said they cannot get the interior of the header... lack of competence or are interior sprays EXTREMELY difficult?

It would've been really cool to see a control with no covering. Really interesting though

I'm on the fence about heat wraps. -- The great thing about coatings is you can make a lightweight 18ga mild steel header much more easily and still have great corrosion resistance once you coat it. You can also weld bolts to the header and use those to attach heat shields with heat wrap clamped on, plus you can have spares with fresh heat wrap so you don't have to re-install dirty stuff. -- Heat wraps are better on turbocharged applications. You just slap it on and go! -- Be aware, I do have a longevity design philosophy, so I depend on adequate airflow at the expense of performance. If you want to wear three pairs of pants and two jackets while you drink hot water at the gym, be my guest.

I have ceramic coated headers and I wrap them to keep the heat out of the engine compartment into the guy that says the corrosion 22 years later no problem you got to leave your car inside you can't leave it outside everything's going to corrode

I'm not at all surprised by the results here. The wrap has both more mass (thermal capacitance) and surface area through which it can dissipate collected heat. If this is the only measure by which you were choosing header insulation, it would clearly be the winner. But as you said, there are other factors at play, including cleanliness, weight, corrosion resistance, and even aesthetic considerations. If you wanted to do this more scientifically, you'd need to maintain a control experiment: headers with no coating or insulation at all. Provided they were the same parameters (alloy type, thickness, etc.) this would at least tell you how well these two items performed in relative terms, as well as comparative terms. Cheers, from the US.

How much better were the coatings than bare metal?

@razor6031tv

3 ай бұрын

thats the real question without answer here idk why he forgot about this test

Use both 💡. Ceramic coated and wrap that. Wonder how much cooler temps that would yield...

Best performance? Wrap ceramic-coated headers

It seems like Zircotec is one of the best ceramic coating options, but very expensive.

Both at once.

Head to head, I see what you did there… clever !

I found infra red guns don't measure properly on lava-rock type wraps. Get ridiculously low readings when it's hot enough to sizzle spit on my finger

@islandworks

7 ай бұрын

It was probably not the best tool for the job to be honest. I ended up shooting a few times at a few occasions.

Ceramic because it coats inside and transfers heat to exterior

On my Harley I went with ceramic coated and I still wrapped them. I cant feel the heat on my leg anymore

@islandworks

7 ай бұрын

That’s good input