I was getting chills during every single portrayal of Emma Smith during the series… I know the church has changed their view on her as a person several times and have portrayed her both as a hero/faithful wife to Joseph and as someone who was more of an antagonist to him as a prophet. This was the first time I’ve ever seen her portrayed like that in media without the church’s bias one way or the other

@michael-4k4000

2 жыл бұрын

Well, well, well! These were Mormons through and through...

@janamckay3176

Жыл бұрын

I loved how Emma was portrayed

@aliciak.6603

8 ай бұрын

I especially loved seeing the younger Emma Smith onscreen. She’s played by the same actress who plays Callie in Yellowjackets, another teen character who’s in a situation way over her head.

Watching Brenda go through initiatories was so triggering. No one told me what was going to happen, my parents didn't prepare me at all and temple prep is a joke. I was r*ped and seggually assaulted in my youth and I was very unaware I was going to be touched without my consent and I had a full blown panic attack. Came out into the endowment room sobbing and everyone looked at me like some kindof freak. So much of this show I related to in my journey and I also highly recommend it to everyone

@ShinkeiDEI

2 жыл бұрын

I can totally relate

@stephaniedorsey1055

Жыл бұрын

I had no idea that was a thing until this and had to read into it immediately. I can’t believe that was ever a thing. I read it stopped supposedly some time in the 80’s or something so I’m not sure my parents even experienced it.

@leifleifsen

11 ай бұрын

You’re all lying. That was never a thing.

@JTAerialist

11 ай бұрын

@@leifleifsen I'm sorry but who are you to dismiss MY experience in the temple? Me being touched without my consent is a fact. It happened. It happened to a lot of people. That's why they eventually changed the policy.

@leifleifsen

11 ай бұрын

@@JTAerialist you’re lying. I know many many women, including family members who have left the church. All who entered the temple from 1968-2019, and none claim this. One (my sister) who became very anti Mormon, and she even says nothing like that happened. Definitely not as a regularity. If some member of the church did this to you, it was an evil individual, not a church teaching or practice.

Ex-Mormon here. I grew up in the 70's and 80's in one of those all Mormon towns that are all over the Southwest United States. I have never seen a more accurate portrayal of what it was like. I have struggled to explain to my husband and friends how different it is from the Midwest and Eastern United States culturally, politically, and even morally. Everything was so spot on that it could have been my family.

I was in my teens during the 80’s in Utah. We definitely talked like that. Everyone was referred to “Brother” and “sister”. Also, how women were treated. I was always told to just honor my husband and priesthood leaders.

Great review! I completely agree. I grew up in a small Mormon town in the 80s, was actually baptized in 1986. So there was so many things in the show that I felt they got spot on. I was also so glad to see something that finally gave justice to the victim of the MMM. They tied it all together so brilliantly! Andrew Garfield nailed the scene in the car where he breaks down. That is how I felt when I had the realization that it was all bs and that I was going to lose everything. Unfortunately for me I did lose everything, my husband, my four kids, my house, my family. It’s incredibly devastating how the church holds families hostage like they do. But still at the end of the day I’m proud of myself for deciphering the truth, amongst all the lies, and staying true to myself because now I can have a second chance to make it all right. It was a fantastic show. Thank you for the review. I couldn’t agree more. All the best to you and your sweet family! Love your channel! Thanks for being such an awesome Exmo! 🤘❤️

@elizabethgrogan8553

2 жыл бұрын

@Paulette Foreman I'm so sad you were treated so badly. You did not deserve to lose your beloved children. That's pure cruelty, to you and your poor children. I hope you have been able to reconnect with them. You are very brave.

@missd3605

2 жыл бұрын

Wow. What a story. Wishing you the best xx

my aunt was actually friends with Brenda. The Laffertys lived down the street from my grandma's family. So watching the show was really interesting.

That car scene where Andrew Garfield’s character breaks down was heart wrenching. And I grew up in Ohio in the 80’s/90’s and their representation of the language is spot on in my opinion.

One girl in my ward the year before I was baptized chose to wait a year. She was never included in anything. The other kids treated her like a leper because I'm sure every parent, just like mine did, talked about how something must be wrong with her or whatever. It was a loud and clear message even to a 7 year old.

@wvcarolina

2 жыл бұрын

😳 loud and clear, indeed!

@sandyharris9162

2 жыл бұрын

So sad how bad in the day they treated kids who’s parents weren’t “choosing the right”! My younger brother and I would run and literally hide from the church people who would come to our house, knowing I was of age to get baptized. I was shunned and Sunday school, Mutual as it was called back then for not being baptized and why I was going there, and calling my Mom a heathen and harlot for smoking. It was very hard and the scars are still present today, I am remarried to a Mormon but I still hold my ground and follow my heart. This show was so enlightening and my husband says it’s all hogwash and fake, make up crap, he said BS!!!

@prophetessoftroy

Жыл бұрын

I was a kid who waited (though I caved after 3 months, in amazed she made it a year!) and that’s very similar to my experience.

@adriannespring8598

Жыл бұрын

@@sandyharris9162 I'd say he's saying it's BS because it's too close to home in his reality & he doesn't want to deal with how false that is.

My favorite part of watching Under the Banner of Heaven with my nevermo fiance was when we saw Joseph Smith with his face his hat, and he sang "dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb!"

The manipulation tactics were triggering for me. The scene outside the church where the elderly woman preached to them about needing to get their girls baptized using previous miscarriages as guilt and that Jebs questions/concerns had been broadcasted. The "celebrity" member showing up at the police station multiple times to try to manipulate/influence things and Jeb being told to set his questions aside/just move on. Been there - very accurate.

The way the men spoke in the quiet cadence, what I call the bishop whisper, was tooooooooo accurate!

@KevinWoodruff

2 жыл бұрын

Whoa, you’re totally right. The bishop whisper…I’m gonna remember that

@wvcarolina

2 жыл бұрын

Nailed it!

Watching Brenda and her sisters in law navigate all of the sexist bullshit in the church was so painful yet cathartic, it made me feel like I'm not crazy for all the experiences I had as a teenager. Especially the family reunion scene, were everyone was so focused on Brenda's appearance calling her a "pretty girl". Overall it was such a good series, plus I love Andrew Garfield!

@anarchisttutor7423

2 жыл бұрын

I felt they slathered on the adulterous interest way too thick in those scenes. It was a well-made show but the lack of subtlety shows they need to work on their technique.

@fluffyattackify

2 жыл бұрын

@@anarchisttutor7423 I guess so, it was a little exaggerated, but it certainly does reflect a lot of interactions I've had with mormon men. That is one of my only issues with the show is that everything is amped up because non mormon viewers wouldn't get the nuances if they were too subtle.

I'm an exmo as well, and there were a few things about mormon culture that seemed a little "forced" but I just saw that as them trying to fit in all this background in a very short amount of time, so I forgave it. My favorite part about this series was the development of the partnership between Jeb and Bill. I think they worked together well, and had this mutual respect for each other coming from very different backgrounds. I loved the last episode especially when Bill is there for Jeb as Jeb is going through his crisis, and he's able to impart just a little bit wisdom and show Jeb that he would be fine.

@JulieSnowstudiojuliesnow3698

2 жыл бұрын

Bill Taba was a homie

@PeterPyo

2 жыл бұрын

Tom you have to remember this is Mormonism in the 80s. It might feel forced, or…it’s just that it’s a version of Mormonism from the 80s. I mean Mormons don’t even call themselves Mormons now in 2022, “officially.”

Bruh I’m literally 16 and Mormons still refuse to say God. We always say “Heavenly Father” I legit though “God” was a bad word until I was 9.

The manipulation of the Church leaders and the how they protected the Church over people. The show got that 100% correct.

"It made Joseph Smith seem like the skeezer that he is..." Thanks for the chuckle!

I was raised as a Jehovah Witness no longer in that cult. Watching this series and seeing how the Mormon community reminded me so much of the JW community. Many of their practices are extremely similar to the JWs. It’s so horrible to know this crime actually happened. It made me so emotional 😭

I think the inclusion of Garfield's character (who is fictional) is a great way to go about doing the show. They could have just done a documentary, but using a fictional character in place of Ex-Mormons or struggling Mormons as the character experiencing and learning about Mormon history was the best possible way to tell the story. You convey the murder case itself, but you also mix in the struggle with faith that Mormons would likely have learning about the case or the same Mormon roots. As a life long Atheist, even, I can heavily sympathize with Jeb, and every Ex-Mormon I know, or Mormon friends who are struggling with their own faith. Hands down a great show and a great way to mix fact with fiction.

I found the way they spoke to be very accurate. I remember hearing them talk like that as a kid. I know many that still speak that way. I read the writer of the show is an ExMo. My grandmother named my mom and her siblings with all the same letter names too. I had to stop and process through every episode.

In the 80s I was a young adult. Boy the scenes at the beginning really brought me back (raised in Provo). The only thing that didn’t seem right is I very seldom saw an elderly Mormon woman with long straggely hair. It was usually short and permed or set in rollers to be curly. If long it was put up in a pretty beehive type bun. And yes we said “dear Heavenly Father and “in the name of thy son, Jesus Christ, amen.”

@wellIdiditagain

2 жыл бұрын

our dear kind and gracious heavenly father.... in the name of the father, son, and holy ghost. that's what I remember in the late 80's/90's. prayer opening and closing.

@EbonyPenmarks

6 ай бұрын

I think a lot shows really downplay 80s hair or voluminous hairstyles. Brenda’s hair was definitely downplayed maybe to make her look “younger”?

I'm re-reading the book and was shocked to find that Dan Laffertys cellmate and best friend in jail was the Mormon bomber from "murder among the mormons"!

@LSSYLondon

2 жыл бұрын

Oh wow I didn't know that?!

@angelamaryquitecontrary4609

Жыл бұрын

IKR!!! What are the chances?

As a Nevermo, I found this series to be amazingly informative and moving. I think the filmmakers did a great job portraying the specific struggles related to Mormonism, while also touching on entry points that are somewhat universal: family violence, misogyny, systemic patriarchy, elder care, career-minded women vs. stay-at-home mothers, faith transitions, fundamentalism, etc. The casting and acting were fantastic. Andrew Garfield as Pyre broke my heart when he was having his breakdown in his garage! I think anyone who has been disillusioned by something or someone can relate. Garfield should at minimum get an Emmy nod for this performance. He was amazing all the way through. I really liked the dynamic between Pyre and Taba, and it reminds me of the rapport that I have built with others when we don't agree on a lot of things, but respect and enjoy each other. My favorite part was when Brenda brings Allen to the bishops (?) to try to explain why the Lafferty brothers were toxic and unstable to get their help or get their blessing to get a divorce. When they all pray over her and essentially lay the salvation of the entire Lafferty family on her shoulders was chilling and heartbreaking. You can see her pain, sadness, and shock at realizing that she is utterly alone, and the way they enclose her in that "blessing" was such a strong visual that she is literally and emotionally being oppressed yet again. I sobbed! So much was expected of her with so little understanding and support. I was seriously shaken by that scene!

@working4ever

2 жыл бұрын

This is one of the most poisonous piece of fiction I’ve ever watched. As a member, the only normal character was Taba. Every moment with Emma is *complete* fiction. Like she wanted him to turn himself into jail? Ha. She was devastated he was separated from her and with a google search you can read their romantic letters and how sad they were to be separated and that she wanted him home with their children during that time. My mother grew up during this time, and nobody talked like a zealot. The lafferrty family is extremely creepy, there is a hit on women in almost every scene. Like geez, if people were that sexist nobody would be members all over the world. Jeb is also a freaking weirdo. There’s strange manipulation and coercion because their 8 year doesn’t get baptized exactly on time. Ugh… I could go. This church is about Christ and these people 👆🏻have forgotten

@terrillmel

2 жыл бұрын

@@working4ever I disagree. The church likes to say it's about Christ, but mostly to prove that it's the only true church. It spends little time preaching compassion and understanding for marginalized groups and individuals like Christ did. I grew up in the church, I served a mission, I worked in the temple, I was married in the temple, and it wasn't until I was 35 that I found out the church hid its history from me. But this isn't what led me out of the church. What led me out of the church was Jesus' example. I decided that Christ would never hold one group as better than another based on religion, ethnicity or gender. Our church has done this repeatedly. I was told all the time as a kid how special I must have been in the pre-earth life because I was born in the only true church in the United States of America in Utah. I was also taught that white people were better than black people in the pre-existence (we can bend it how we want to buy this was the belief). I found out that I couldn't hold that all human beings were equal and remain in a church that perceived itself as the only right church with the only true authority. Everyone else was just pretending church. Their marriages didn't count. Their baptism didn't count. It was a level of supremacy I knew Christ wouldn't stand for and therefore I couldn't stand for it either. This is the real reason I left. Tell yourself the church is all about Christ, but it's really all about authority and being the only right group.

@working4ever

2 жыл бұрын

@@terrillmel I’m sorry that was your experience. That has not been mine. It is clear from the scriptures rather than word of mouth that all men are equal in the eyes of God. 2 Nephi 26:33 And NO one will be withheld from the eternal blessings, or not be given the chance to accept them, even in the after life. If you don’t believe in doctrinal consistency, then you don’t believe in Christ because He isn’t a God of chaos. Unfortunately, every Christian church has a different take on Christ’s teachings. The truth by nature cannot be inclusive to every world view. Biblically, the Jews were “Gods chosen people” and were often separated from the non believers. Is this the same Christ you believe in? Because He claimed that everyone else was wrong. I feel sorry that you have abandoned the one true gospel (because there can only be one) but mercifully, it’s seems you’ll be given multiple chances to accept the truth (if not in this life, then the next). This is a God I can believe in rather than one who damns most of humanity to Hell for not getting it right in mortality. And even better, everyone gets a kingdom of glory, regardless. Seems like the most logical, fatherly, and charitable God to me.

@briandavis6898

2 жыл бұрын

@@terrillmel has something changed in the church in the last 30 years? I'm in my 50s and grew up in salt lake and nothing was hidden historically. We all discussed the anti Mormon arguments and details all the time. I stopped attending church in college so I don't know if the culture changed after that, but when I hear people say they never heard about these things, I just have to wonder if things changed since I left because they were common and discussed all the time when I was young.

@terrillmel

2 жыл бұрын

@@briandavis6898 By the time the 90s rolled around they must have put the lid on it. I know in the 80s there was plenty of controversy surrounding the church: priesthood ban in 78, Mark Hoffman and falsified documents, the God Makers, the Tanners, multiple accounts of first vision, Church historian Leonard Errington being released for being too forthright with history... But as for me and my peers we never knew any of this stuff. I was married before I ever heard JS had more than 1 wife. I know that sounds crazy, but how often is that mentioned in church or general conferences? For me, not a single instance. All I was exposed to in seminary was cute videos of Joseph's and Emma's ideal courtship. I never heard about multiple translations of the BOM only that it was the most correct of any book on earth. I never heard of the Mormon Meadow Massacre. I could go on and on, but the PR was top-notch in the 90s and in Utah the Mormon Church was untouchable.

“Under The Banner of Heaven” by Jon Krakauer is an excellent book : extremely well written, well researched and hard to put down.

It WAS corny in the 1980s, I was there, married into a TBM family, it was a weird time to live in Utah and have young kids that we had to keep locked up for a few weeks until they were captured, we lived around the corner from Brenda, it was scary, same with Mark Hofmann, same with the Allred murders

@China-Clay

2 жыл бұрын

You guys gave a super good review by the way

Thanks for pointing out that this series takes place 40 years ago. Some criticism of the show, especially from younger posters, brought this counter-point up for me. I was never a Mormon, but I am a 40 year-old ex-Catholic and I often bump up against this when talking about my Catholic upbringing in the '80's. The whole "Yeah, I get that they don't do that anymore, buuuuut - they definitely did when I was there!" kinda stuff.

@stephano.s

2 жыл бұрын

Even the way the show looks and the props look points out that it was in the 80s

@queenmotherhane4374

2 жыл бұрын

@@stephano.s, yes! I have an eagle eye for set and costuming anachronisms, and their depiction of the ‘80s is spot on!

@Visshaldar

2 жыл бұрын

@@stephano.s in one scene Ammon Lafferty was wearing a short sleeved button up shirt with a discreet pattern on it and i started laughing. i told my husband that every Mormon man about that age i knew had like 50 of those shirts. he looked exactly like my grandpa and all the other mormon men of that age that i grew up around in the 80's and 90's.

One thing that I thought was well done was how they played up the theme of having to keep up appearances. We see how many of the Mormon characters have to struggle with this. For Det. Pyree it causes a serious case of cognitive dissonance. The Church, rather than looking inwards instead becomes more obsessed with ensuring its curated image that they’re willing to impede the investigation. That theme was present with the Lafferties because they had an obsession with protecting the Lafferty image. When they encountered business failure rather than suck it up and declare bankruptcy they instead blamed Brenda, went down all these weird anti government rabbit holes, and learned about the FLDS tradition which, in a sense allowed them to avoid admitting their flaws. To me it really goes to show how important it is to be honest with yourself.

First: excellent battle jacket! More importantly, I really appreciate your comments and observations. I grew up in small Utah town in the 70s-80s. I personally heard and saw church people (including family members) who spoke just like they do in this series. This show really hit home for me. My wife grew up in SLC during the same time period, and she tells me that little in this show reflects her experience. The degree to which this show will hit home will definitely depend on where and how you grew up, I guess. I loved it, and I’m really glad this was made. My biggest takeaway was a renewed sense of anger about how the church worked so hard to obscure, hide, cover up, or lie about its history when it came to teaching us as youth. I shouldn’t have had to learn from South Park that Smith didn’t translate the plates by looking into a hat, or from the internet that Young was pro-slavery and a white supremacist.

Started it on a work night to fall asleep to, the credits rolled as the sun came up... I was riveted, it was an impactful series that left me, where to start.

I loved the show (also loved Big Love). Me and my wife were fully immersed Mormons for 3+ years and we left the Church about 22 years ago. We did it all, and got sealed in the Toronto Temple, and wore the ugly magic undies. We lived the Mormon life 200%. After we left, we had no contact with the Church at all anymore (our choice, told them to remove our membership). I am shocked at the amazing details they get right, and also how much they showed, and so many references they made that only Mormons would pick up. Neither me or my wife had family in the church, but man this series really hits home for me, similar to you guys in so many ways. We got married and received our endowments on the same day.... and it was absolutely traumatic for me going through that as I was not prepared for that at all. From that day on, my eyes were opened up (and I did my own research online in the late 90s), and I felt alone for years because I couldn't talk to anyone about how I felt, or what I saw in the Temple,etc. I basically faked it and was in denial until years later. Seeing Jeb throw up at work (once the truth of the Church sets in) and seeing him cry in the car, and the conversation with his wife mirrored what I felt and was going through. I was terrified of losing my wife and child. Thankfully I was able to get my wife out about 2 months after we had that moment / talk. Like you guys say... it's amusing seeing young modern Mormons criticize things in the show as not accurate... but boy even in the late 90s it was like that. We always said Heavenly Father. Great video. Thanks for sharing, and glad you both were able to leave together and live your own life and find your own happiness, just like me and my wife did after unplugging from the Matrix. :)

This may be interesting to you: my last name is Fancher, as in the Fancher wagon train of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. While I haven't found any clear ancestral connection to those Fanchers, I do know pretty much all of us came from one family of 6 siblings known as the "Fancher Six" from Connecticut in the seventeen hundreds. Curiously, at 60 y.o., I have never met a person who shares my name, other than my grandfather and one second cousin. Perhaps that's because a huge volume of the bloodline was poured onto the ground in southern Utah in the 1850's. (I am planning a trip to the memorial for sometime soon.) Anyway, I liked you guys immediately. Thanks for sharing some of your story.

@wvcarolina

2 жыл бұрын

I know a Fancher familiar from the Huntington WV area. If this helps any.

@kevinfancher3512

2 жыл бұрын

@@wvcarolina Cool. In 60 years you are the first person ever to tell me that.

Thank you so much for this video. I'm a 60 yr old Catholic. And because of Hulu I am trying to learn about this show. First, i didn't know this was an actual event. Thanks for that. 2nd, i didn't no Mormonism has changed so much. One of my dearest friend, Chrissy, was a practicing Mormon girl in the 70's. She was really a spiritual person who was loved by all of us. She was a cheer leader and in student body. I as a hard core practicing Catholic teen and her as a Strong practicing Mormon got along very well. She answered all my questions. She didn't eat meat, do caffeine and she couldn't do a lot of other things. It was hard for her but you could see, what we Catholics say is the Holy spirit, was truly working in her. She had such a charitable soul. She was like a earthly bound Angel. She died of I think leukemia during our high school years. The school was very low for a long time. But by listening to you two, i can see the church has changed a lot. There was much secrecy and I didn't want her to sin, so I only asked a few questions. I loved how devout the Mormon's are. I'm going to finish the rest of your video. Half way through it. You guys are great and you guys work well together and look great as a couple. God bless you, ✌🏼🦁 Ps, thank you for sharing your story. I could feel your struggle. I'm glad you said that it seemed 90% accurate. It is what I look for in a program. Edit, I deleted some of my comment. After seeing some more of the program, there were some really shocking subjects and I felt like i had to delete an opinion i had. God bless you.

I haven't watched the show. But its interesting. Growing up mormon, we were so offended when people assumed we practiced polygamy. And I remember feeling the FLDS church were cults, not my own religion. Ugh

@chlyri

2 жыл бұрын

They do actively practice polygamy. Just not on Earth.

@christopherhardy8937

2 жыл бұрын

@@chlyri touche

@bunkertons

2 жыл бұрын

I find it really fascinating when mormons make this distinction. You can disassociate yourself from the act, but those who practice polygamy still call themselves mormon. They are mormon, friend and so are you. Own your own.

@christopherhardy8937

2 жыл бұрын

@@bunkertons well said

@catlover1039

Жыл бұрын

@@chlyri fr either one is gross in my opinion, I was never taught woman’s only role was to be child barers to populate their husbands planet. After I learned that I was like “oh fuck no, I’m rather die again, no way would I want to do that for eternity.”

I really liked it, I have been obsessed with the case since it happened. I was Brenda's age and had an 18 mos old daughter at the time of the killings. I grew up not far from where it happened. I read Krakauer's book a while ago and remember saying to my husband "This says Joseph Smith was a polygamist, that isn't true is it? My husband said no way, he has bad sources. Then at the back of the book Krackauer put in the Church's official reply to the inaccuracies in the book. When I read them I thought what a bunch of piddly complaints, why are they not disputing Joseph's polygamy? Well I know now why, because it was true!

I have members of LDS in my family. I've heard the term "heavenly father" more times than I could count. There may be some people who don't use it, however, the Mormons I'm related to say that all the time.

2:44 - My sister was a convert (from Sandy, UT), who couldn't get through a 20-minute conversation without saying, "Heavenly Father,"...not, "God,"..."Heavenly Father," _every time._ 4:24 - My wife's mom is the kind of devout Mormon (daughter of a convert) who _should_ live in rural Utah. Her five children's names all start with the same first letter as their dad. As for the Lafferty brothers, I was about nine years old at the time, and I still remember hearing about it on the news. I'm interested to check out this series. Thanks!

Gut wrenching, spot on representation of 80's lds. Well made series, good character development. Glad I watched but can't watch it again. My heart breaks for all those raised under the influence of the patriarchy.

I felt it was very accurate to my upbringing as well. I grew up more in the early 2000s but I still felt like it was accurate at least to my family. and I usually think most media about Utah and Mormons is pretty wrong. and I thought that this got it good. the only other media I could think of is the book of Mormon musical and South Park.

I've read that this is the first show to get the Mormon culture of the time right, because the creator is ex Mormon and grew up that way. The show was entertaining, but wildly inaccurate about the crime. There was no whodunit or manhunt; the authorities knew it was Dan and Ron Lafferty and arrested them immediately. One of my friends was an attorney on the case when it was in habeas and I've gotten an earful, lol.

@ExmoLex

2 жыл бұрын

I’m currently reading the book and it seems that although the police knew who did it early on, the Lafferty’s were still on the run for some time before their arrest. There were definitely a lot of liberties taken for the sake of drama though!

@playnicechannel

2 жыл бұрын

@@ExmoLex Jon Krakauer is a fantastic writer/reporter. I actually read this book because his book “Into Thin Air” about the 1996 climbing disaster on Mt Everest when 8 climbers wound up dead due to a violent change in the weather, is one of the best non-fiction books I’ve ever read. Though I do believe there may have been some family knowledge of who killed Brenda and her daughter and why, those pieces of information were leads for the police to seek persons of interest. They still need evidence and facts. Allen Lafferty who naturally was detained immediately as the husband and the person who found them dead. Allen certainly knew who was responsible. It would have been a stretch forensically to prove the case. Luckily the jury convicted them. Dan Lafferty still feels zero remorse, he feels it was a requirement to blood atone Brenda and her baby. But then in the same prison interview he states he is just a little surprised Heavenly Father hasn’t arranged for his release yet, but then he also states he is Elijah, yeah that Elijah. I think the thing which is so scary from the book and the series is just how short a time it was from the brothers being raised in a very, very strict but traditional LDS family, to embracing the fringe edge of anti-government leanings to embracing the most extreme ideas of fundamentalist beliefs. They are/were not the only fringe LDS groups to embrace the blood atonement doctrine(The LaBarons and some of The Kingston group certainly did), there is often repeated rumor that the FLDS also committed blood atonement but unlike the other groups, no bodies tied to the FLDS have ever surfaced so who knows.

@daniellima2973

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed . I read the book and it was completely off . But they had to create a police story to tell the real story

@tori.rory.

Жыл бұрын

I feel they partially did it this way so Allen and Jeb could have so much dialogue and examine the core issues with the LDS church and history.

It triggered so many memories, I`ve been out of the church for 12 or so years and like nothing I got quotes, scriptures, hymns flooding back in my mind, fuck I even remembered the temple ceremony out of the blue and I had to explain it to my never-mo friends xD. Loved it.

BRILLIANT review guys, absolutely spot on! As an exmo I could totally relate to Jeb's faith crisis, perhaps something TBM's or non members couldn't understand but which I found very moving. Haun's Mill & Mountain Meadows were equally difficult & disturbing to watch & the power struggles between Joseph, Emma & Brigham certainly gave me chills. Any Mormon who criticises the portrayal of 'Mormon life' etc in the show needs to open their eyes & be realistic about the truth of the church's past & also present. Good work guys, love your work!

I hadn't heard of this series until I watched your review. Just watched the first episode and I'm intrigued. The cast has a pretty amazing lineup, interesting character development. Thank you for making me aware of it. Keep up the amazing content. All very compelling, and enlightening.

I am planning on watching ow. Thank you both for your insights on this. Also, I truly appreciate both you for your candor, empathy and compassion!

@mylesmarkson1686

2 жыл бұрын

Same here, if they ever make it available free for us poor folk.

Your review is spot on. I converted and join the church when I was 16 and was a member for 20 years. I served a mission and graduated from BYU so I know the church pretty well from the inside out. I've been out of the church now for 30 years. I thought the show did a good job representing both standard Mormonism and fundamentalist Mormonism. Again your review is spot-on. Thank you.

I binge-watched it over the last 2 days and your insight into the miniseries is fascinating ! Thanks so much! And your own journey would make for a wonderful TV show too!

Well - the Missionaries that I visited with just 6 months before COVID said "Heavenly Father" 90% of the time when referring to God. Disclaimer - I was nice to them and I spent time talking with them to keep them from talking to someone that perhaps might be vulnerable enough to fall for the speil. I also felt sorry for them - it was an unseasonably hot day and the poor things looked pretty drained.

Exmo here, raised in Mormon religion since I was about 4 yrs old. Alot was very accurate in this show. I did get insight into things that I had no idea about like the massacre situation as I don't remember it being really talked about, Joseph Smith wives that topic was always brushed over in how many wives Joseph Smith actually took. I started questioning the religion in HS, and really questioned things in my late 20's got out in early 30's. I can't remember what being my shelf it was just a combo of things, I read Emma Smith book think it was biography it autobiography possibly & that have me many questions that the Mormon church never answered and I presented the questions to no avail. I heard of blood atonement in the church, but it was brushed over and never explained fully. So had to look that up and when I read info on that fully, if I'd had that explained on the church that would have broke my shelf/ been a deal breaker for me. Also the inequality between men and women spot on. Women really are serving class citizens in the Mormon society all branches if it, they're not equal to men. it's very masochistic (question spelling).

I am not sure if anyone has mentioned it as I have not read all the comments . Lindsay Hansen Park from the very good Year of Polygamy podcast and Sunstone was a consultant on the show. I am sure much of what made it so accurate was her knowledge and experience growing up in Utah as a Mormon . I highly recommend her podcasts.

@mylesmarkson1686

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, she said that she was a little late coming to the project, and she said that's why the first couple of episodes lacked in authenticity.

Just finished the series and thought it was great. I appreciate your honesty and candid approach. Wishing you luck and a happy life.!👍

Just finished watching the series. Thank you. Thank for helping me know I am not alone.

Looks like Twitter forgot that the writer of the show, Dustin Lance Black, was a Mormon himself who very much grew up in a Mormon household surrounded by Mormon culture.

Sooo spot on. There were polygamists businesses on Center Street in Prove during this period. It blew me away how part of the community at large they were.

I am also reading the book and I questioned how accurate this is. I'm ex-catholic and my husband is a non practicing Jew. And you are absolutely right about this... zealotry goes on in every single religion. The manipulation, fear, soul-crushing mind control is so disturbing. I truly appreciate your Mormon perspective and your courage to leave! I spent a month in St George and Hurricane and felt that robotic, sickly sweet presentation. It was weirdly unnerving and so lily white! I also saw vans full of girls in prairie dresses and bonnets. Wow! You are both so secure and intelligent and treat each other with love and respect! I hope you can inspire those indoctrinated children and women. You are good humans.

Thank you for sharing this. I will keep you in mind when I finally get a chance to watch it. I really appreciate your video talking about the realism and the real risk of the teachings.

I thought it was pretty accurate too. The parts I thought were over exaggerated or off, my husband didn’t agree and felt they were accurate. We grew up in different locations with different family and ward vibes.

I'm not Mormon but my late wife was. A friend brought up Mountain Meadows which I had never heard of. My wife was uncomfortable and maybe embarrassed by the topic. But she said the church doesn't try to deny that history. true? Fortunately, I was never inclined to join the church or believe. So it was a source of tension for us.

@crzygrl8849

2 жыл бұрын

the church doesn't deny it, they've changed the narrative of what actually happened there and minimize the topic as much as possible.

@Den5177

2 жыл бұрын

@@crzygrl8849 does the church blame Brigham Young? Or lay the blame elsewhere?

@marti7369

2 жыл бұрын

@@Den5177 On rogue church members who had a misunderstanding on was going on.

@richardholmes5676

11 ай бұрын

Mountain Meadows was a white man's war. The arrogant anti-Mormon cult make it out to look like it was Mormons. For future reference never believe a damn thing out of an anti-Mormon mouth.

Loved your review and your discussion of your own experiences. I find the problems you spoke of are relatable in many religions and, as in the series, it takes something palpable to happen sometimes to open your eyes. 👍👍👍

When Lee says “Saints do your duty” at the massacre it gave me chills .

I read the book several years ago, it was an eye opener into religious extremism.

Andrew Garfield did such a good job at playing a conflicted detective struggling with his faith he is one of the most talented actors I have ever seen he is so good at just becoming his character he was recording tik tik boom at the same time as he was making this so he was going from being this conflicted detective to this happy artsy guy who was so focused on his art

@whyy__it

Жыл бұрын

He’s fantastic in Silence

@anonymouspotato1022

Жыл бұрын

@@whyy__it never seen it what’s it about?

@whyy__it

Жыл бұрын

@@anonymouspotato1022 he plays a catholic priest sent to Japan on missionary work… it’s intense, Scorsese directed

@anonymouspotato1022

Жыл бұрын

@@whyy__it cool I’ll have to check it out

the scene where there is discussion about postponing the baptism and Jeb's wife gets angry is what did it for me. when i turned 8 my father had lost his priesthood (a frequent issue for him) at first his parents were reluctantly ok with postponing my baptism, b/c having my grandfather do it would be embarrassing, but then my 9th birthday rolled around and he still didnt have his priesthood back, so they forced him to let my grandfather do it b/c at that point it was more embarrassing that i hadnt been baptized.

I was a teen in the 80s, but did not grow up in Utah. We did still say Heavenly Father ALL the time, tho! Lol Also, the Mountain Meadows Massacre was taught in church as an attack, by Native Americans, on non-LDS pioneers. The white-washed history painted the saints as heroes for "rescuing" the children of the slain travelers who they ACTUALLY killed in order to take their provisions. Sick 🤮 The scene was so awful to watch, not only because of the slaughter itself, but because of the fact that Brigham Young purposely had his followers dress like natives so that they could blame them for what happened. Despicable monster. 👿

@anarchisttutor7423

2 жыл бұрын

I first heard about MMM from an Institute teacher, who condemned their actions. I have wondered if he's still in the church just because the fact that he told us about it shows he valued honesty and transparency, from what I could tell. Kudos to him.

@daisymae4587

2 жыл бұрын

That's how I remember being taught about Mountain Meadows. There are so many differences between the history we were taught & our best current understanding based on verifiable scholarship.

GREAT review. Will have to check out your other videos.

Ok you’ve convinced me I need to watch this!

Thank You for another great video. I love your shirt.

Really like your vid here- I like how it’s even handed and not too “anti-Mormon”. Like you said, there are all dif kinds or levels… good stuff- I’m subing 😊

Thanks for your perspective you two, so glad you were able to strengthen your marriage and your personal relationships with spirit god to live your lives fully by following what is right for you. Your insights have integrity. We can gain wisdom from all the experiences life dishes up for us. Heart, Heather, PA, USA

Yes!!! I love you guys!!! Lex you are so amazing.

I agree! I loved the show and saw so much of my childhood, whether through family, friends, or neighbors. I grew up in St. George so I knew about Mt Meadows, I cried for the whole section in the show. Such a horrific event.

i’ve been waiting to hear ur take on this girl !!

Such a good show to watch. I highly recommend the series.

Interestingly, when you were discussing Baptisims; I was born into a Roman Catholic family. I enjoyed the pageantry of the mass when I was little. But, my CCD classes changed my feelings. At 7, I questioned the Priest all the time. My parents were constantly getting calls asking who was teaching me these things-they explained it was from me. I didn’t want to go to confession because as you said; we were 7-8, what sins had we committed. We never learned as I remember about original sin. I know I told him that my confession should be to Jesus, not a man. I was some crazy kid! I made my 1st grade teacher cry,😅. God bless you, I feel I learned a lot. And I want to learn more about LDS.

You guys are totally rockin' the look with your hair / beard!

Specifically the temple scene is what lead me to find your channel. I only went to the temple to do baptism for the dead once, and never did any other temple work because I quit going to church around 16ish, so I had no idea what the other temple stuff was like, had only seen some of my parent's temple clothing, didn't know about the robe layer and the green apron, or the weird hats, and of course never knew about the hand movements, the handshakes, or the ceremonies. I never cared about it after I left but seeing that scene in the movie made me have even more questions than I did when I actually was still a practicing mormon. It's been a weird journey learning about it now as an adult.

The problem for me is with all the plural wives whenever I run into people when I’m in Utah or Idaho it’s a family reunion

ExJW, I really enjoyed the series. So many similarities. Just started watching Keep Sweet, Pray and Obey. Can't wait to hear what you two have to say about that one.

I found the show to be pretty spot on with the weirdness of Mormons. I grew up Mormon but I never really believed, I had too many unanswered questions. The unwillingness of people to even consider the true history of the church was very familiar to me. I lived in the duplex where this happened in 1994-1995 and I’ve been aware of the case ever since it happened. My favorite line in the show: “Your sporadically compassionate people have an allergy to facts because facts point toward truth”. Such a heartbreaking case. Dan has also claimed responsibility for the murder suicide of a family in Utah county a few years back. They had been corresponding with him and even visited him in prison. Somehow he convinced the parents to kill themselves and their children.

The only thing I noticed that I felt they got wrong was when they prayed. As a Mormon, we NEVER clasped our hands at our chest. Always arms folded and head bowed.

Would love to hear you two review "Keep Sweet: Pray and Obey"!

Your hair and make up are always 10/10! Thanks for sharing

I agree about the breaking down in the car scene! I’ve never been Mormon. Or even religious (I’m an atheist now). But I have always been super interested in different religions, cults, group think, etc. Of all kinds. One of my best friends growing up (in NC) was Mormon but they were not super devout. So I learned a little bit from her when I was young. And I loved the show “Big Love” on HBO and learned a good bit from that. And I watch probably way too many documentaries 😂 Anyway, all that being said... the scene when he broke down in the car broke my heart. I felt his emotions. The feeling of the person he loved most basically telling him that she can’t love him for who he is.... and him having to reckon with that. And live kind of a false life to be with his family. Ugh! 😩 Andrew Garfield was amazing in this.

I love your husbands battle jacket. I am also a Metalhead 🤘🏾. I'm a less active member of The Church of Jesus of Latter-day Saints. I plan to go back to church in the near future. The Mormon culture is totally different in Australia / New Zealand compared to the US. My wife and I are covered in tattoos and sealed in the temple. To be fair we got the tattoos when we were less active. I've visited Utah and Cody, Wyoming (Huge Mormon history). Very interesting to hear your guys stories about your upbringing in the Mormon faith.

As a person who grew up in the LDS back in the 80's I could relate to this life style the movie portraits almost 100%, I find it horrifying.

I recognized the temple wedding clothes in the show from your video : )

I had to read the book for a college course… it was eye opening seeing extreme branches of Christianity for me as a catholic

@lottiedah903

10 ай бұрын

They’re not Christians! It’s a whole different thing

@barbaraschmitt85

6 ай бұрын

​@lottiedah903 they ate literally called the church of JESUS CHRIST of latter Day saints, they believe in the second coming of Jesus (hence the latter Day saints part). They believe Jesus at one point made it to America, so yes they are Christians 🙄

I grew up in a polygamist off shoot, we weren't organized or anything each family did there own thing. We lived all over Utah and we of course had some people that were more devout and people that were less devout. But Under the Banner of Heaven really hit the nail on the head with a lot of things.

I lived in Utah when this was happening andit remindedme how scary life can be living here. As a transgender mtf person in Utah ,I've been threatened many times by active mormon people, and former friends!!!

Grew up in the 90s and my BFF and boyfriend were Mormons. - Heavenly Father etc... was TOTALLY how they talked! Thanks for the review, gonna watch it now.

On your patreon page, only the 1st 3 levels are showing up, even if I click on the tab to show more levels. Keep up the great work!

I thought it was refreshing to see an accurate take on the complexity of the religion & culture.

Ty for the review

Great insights!

It WAS mostly on target in depicting mormon life from the inside. Not perfect, but I can't think of any media I have seen that got it better. About saying "heavenly father" all the time... if you just say "god" people (especially outside the church) might think you are talking about Jesus... so for clarity more specific language is ACTUALLY used in conversation. The show got that right. Where they went off track a little was with some of the context ... there were places where HF was invoked that were a little campy and over the top in ways that were not accurate to how mormons talk... maybe this was deliberate to make some characters seem more "fanatical" ... dunno ... but there were places where it seemed "in authentic" to me. The script was probably ok when you read through it, but the edit picked up a little too much HF, and leaned into it a little too hard to be entirely authentic on that specific linguistic point. I was super impressed with the set that thet had for the interior of the salt lake temple ... it was a dead ringer.

Awesome video! Thank you!

I read the book years ago. I'm super fascinated with LDS culture as a nevermo w/ Orthodox LDS family members.

Good review. Non/Never-mormon here but having lived in several LDS heavy areas over the years the portrayal of dialect, behaviors & mannerisms of the mormons in the late 80’s to 90’s is spot on. I linked the book below, it’s a worthy read for people that want to get more background than the TV series, but it’ll be full of spoilers I suppose….

Can you also do a review of “Mormon No More” - the Hulu docuseries when it comes out???

Have y’all watched the HBO show Big Love? Its from 2006 heavily FLDS focused. It is very interesting. I ‘m half way through Under the Banner of Heaven.

Read the book. Will have to watch the series.

I can verify that in the late 60s, seminary did teach about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and the church claimed that the Massacre was solely committed by Indians. The church claimed it was a conspiracy by the enemies of the church to blame the massacre on the Mormons. I recommend listening to the audio version of the book, “Under the Banner of Heaven.” The HULU series was excellent and more entertaining than the book, but I broke down during my daily dog walk at night where, hopefully, no one saw me sobbing like an idiot during the description of the murders in the audio book.

Can you please make a video about Mormon beauty standards and the expectations placed on women to be perfect in all aspects of their lives