Yes tend to agree with all that you see and said , Brompton seems to be confusing themselves , when companies only talk within and not talking outside of the bubble it’s usually a lot of pain and suffering not for those in house but us riding the bike , the feed back they would or could get from us the riders is extremely valuable but listening is not Brompton forte. Personally I thought having a rear hub internal gears with belt drive system is the future and would open up a market place that many have missed , with Brompton creating these Brompton junction shop around the world the focus has been on sales , where before any bike shop used to sell them which Brompton stopped but at least those shops had experience in fixing when needed , so the belt drive system would be ideal not only for the consumer but ideal for the shops who don’t know how to maintain them.

@Zen_Not_Zen

6 ай бұрын

"Personally I thought having a rear hub internal gears with belt drive system is the future " 👏Exactly

@kavanobrien6547

6 ай бұрын

@@Zen_Not_Zen don’t understand why other can’t or won’t see it.

@Zen_Not_Zen

6 ай бұрын

🙌 compact and bijou , Efficient -no fussiness @@kavanobrien6547

@HolgerNestmann

6 ай бұрын

I was coming to question the idea. But the more I think about it, it could work very well for a brompton. On a normal bike, you need to be able to open the triangle, but on a brompton you can reduce „chain“ tension by folding down the rear wheel. Maybe enough to weave the wheel out. Still the triangle can’t be fully welded, as you need to get a new belt in, but you could screw it open on say the suspension block In normal operation you‘d need to keep the belt under tension. Not sure how much of a challenge that is, but I havent seen a belt with that much play as a bromton requires

@kavanobrien6547

6 ай бұрын

@@HolgerNestmann You make some good points. But funny in life there’s always a but, having thought this would not only work but would be much better , then I discovered a company that actually already does it along with many other models , the company is = KINETICS of Scotland based in Glasgow, they use an Alfine or Rohloff hub with 11 gears with a belt drive , as said if Brompton only looks inwardly for innovation it’s always going to be limited with their vision, can you imagine the size of the market place there are missing out on , just in this country alone the amount of people who would go for a belt drive folding Brompton = no chain, No derailleur, no maintenance. Sales would go through the roof , it’s so obvious yet Brompton are stuck in their own bubble, I’m pretty sure the gentleman who invented the bike would of gone down that road , mind you he was a proper engineer, this CEO is an engineer on paper only , the old adage there by name or nature.

New (additional models) gearing: Shimano Alfine 11 for the C-Line Explores. Front derailleur and 2nd chainring for the P- and T-Line Urbans. Bob's your uncle.

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

200% agree with that. How come brompton don't 🤔

Perfectly timed for me, and very interesting! I just purchased a Brompton and researched the heck out of the gearing before I made my purchase. I do a bit of modest "adventure cycling" - multi-day point-to-point rides, sometimes on-road and sometimes off-road. The Brompton is intended to be my n + 1 adventure bike as in, "a bike I can easily take with me on holidays and trips, to squeeze some extra riding in" type adventure. Getting my big bike on trains is a royal pain, and of course impossible on buses (and somewhat inconvenient in a car).Separately, my Brompton needs to get me up hills as I often end up choosing hilly routes. For the record, I ended up with a C-Line Explore with 44T chainring and 13/16 sprockets in the back. Here's what I learned in my research, then I'll address the questions you asked in your video: What I learned: The 44T C-Line set-up gives me 29.1 to 88 gear inches, 5.2 mph bottom end speed (60 rpm) and 26.2 mph top-end speed (100 rpm), 302% gear ratio. I may end up dropping further to a 40T chainring (26.5 to 80 gear inches, 4.7 to 23.8 mph, 302%). I test rode a P-Line (40.6 to 66.4 gear inches, 7.2 to 19.8 mph with 44T), and immediately realised it was way too narrow (164% gear ratio) and restrictive a gear range (not low enough, not high enough). Switching to a 5-speed wide range Sturmey Archer on my C-Explore would have given me even less range than the current C-Line Explore set-up (256% gear ratio compared to 302% for C-Line Explore), and fitting a 5-sped IGH with a double sprocket would only really improve marginally on the current Explore gear range (315% gear ratio compared to 302% for C-Explore), but would give a closer jump between gears. Also, fitting the latter (S-A wide range IGH + 2 rear sprockets, using the Brommieplus hack kit), would have voided the Brompton warranty, so that became a non-starter. Re: your video questions, I was aware of Brompton's plans to add 12-speed to their bikes (3-speed BWR IGH plus 4 sprockets, fitted initially to a P-Line), but decided against waiting to see what it was like because even if it's available in the spring, I get the feeling gear changing might be a bit like unravelling a bowl of spaghetti - constantly up and down like a yoyo with both gear levers to get consecutive gear increases from 1 to 12. It could be over a year before we know whether buyers love it or hate it. Here's my take: The attraction of the Brompton is simplicity of the gearing, and convenience (foldability and low-ish weight). As you alluded to, why add weight to the P-Line, the goal of which is to be a lighter bike? And why use such a complex 3 x 4 gearing arrangement? The proposed 3 x 4 P-Line will, I think, be a bust - too complicated for gear changes. It would effectively be like riding with a triple chainring and 4-sprocket cassette! Better solutions (regardless of whether added to the C-Line or the two lighter Lines; though C-Line makes most sense to put money into developing IMO, as it's the best-selling line) are: (1) (priority) work with Sturmey-Archer to refine and test the 5 IGH x 2 sprocket arrangement already available as a hack kit; (2) work on a Shimano Alfine IGH-kitted C-Line, with single sprocket for simplicity (3) work on either a double-chainring version of the P-Line and T-Line, or a single chainring with 9- or 10-speed cassette. Fitting a Rohloff IGH (which I love; my regular adventure bike has a Rohloff hub) is a bridge too far for a Brompton, so that's a non-starter IMO.

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

Thanks for the comment David and sorry for the delayed response but workload is high atm and with the detail you put in thought it was only fair to give the same back. This comment was a pleasure to read and your detail into gear ratios is honestly amazing and really interesting! Way more research than I did into my choices but it's great that research has led to you getting the right outcome. Your better solutions listed also are completely on point also, don't disagree with any of it. Because of the reliability I do like the Rohloff IGH for a proper all day adventure bike but the cost involved with it (including your custom rear triangle) isn't worth it in the end. Maybe if you travel by Brompton for a living it might be. Once again great comment.

@davidrowe8747

6 ай бұрын

@@TheBromptonGuy Interestingly, I re-watched last night a very informative video by Alee Denham (CyclingAbout), comparing Alfine hubs to Rohloff hubs (titled "Are $199 Shimano Alfine Internal Gear Bicycle Hubs GENIUS or Terrible?") Among other things, he described the gear ratio of the Alfine 8-speed (306%) and the Alfine 11-speed (409%), which both compare favourably with the 302% gear ratio currently possible with Brompton's 6-speed set-up on the C-Line Explore (though at 526%, the much more expensive Rohloff trumps them all). All of these gear ratios can be obtained using Brompton's own gear calculator. There was one section of Alee's video that cautioned about trying to go too low a set-up with Alfine hubs, though I didn't really understand the "Why?" of it. That section starts at around 14 minutes into the video. The issue seems to be less for lighter riders, for some reason. If you get to watch this part of his video, I'd be interested in your take why low gear rations could damage an Alfine hub. In the meantime, it serves to reinforce my opinion that Alfine hubs are the simplest way for Brompton to increase gear range, keeping it simple and without breaking the bank.

@youweeh

6 ай бұрын

I just spoke to Brompton and cancelled my c line because he said he has the 12 speed but could not elaborate other than stating 12 speed is going to be available if the planet still exists (fire and trump and his deadly wars on everything good) next year, so I was also informed he is riding the prototype now in November 2023. I am waiting because I tour etc

@davidrowe8747

6 ай бұрын

@@youweeh that's interesting. The shop I purchased my C-Line from said that 12-speed would be available on the P-Line later in the year or early 2024, but that there was no indication from Brompton about when/whether it will be available for the C-Line. I didn't fancy the long wait to see how the 12-speed fared with customers - it might go down like a cup of cold sick. It doesn't intuitively sound like a straightforward gear arrangement (3 x 4, ostensibly analogous to a triple chainring with a 4-sprocket rear cassette), so it might be one of those Marmite things - some people love it, some hate it. Either way, I'm happy with my 6-speed C-Line Explore for the meantime.

@youweeh

6 ай бұрын

@@davidrowe8747 He was vague but re iterated with ortlieb packs and climbing I might should wait! We discussed the chain ring and it fell flat so I am lost on the arrangement in hiding at this juncture. With winter arriving I decided to wait and see in February and make my order then based on 12 speed or not! Touring screams for 12 speed in any mountain range and summers want mountains as of late due to heat on tours.

Great update. Thank you for posting.

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

Not a problem.. Love trying my best to share the information my friend.

I have that setup with a Brommieplus freehub body on my BWR hub. 4cogs. Aftermarket P/T derailleur. Works beautifully.

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

I assume it’s for these reason they see the market for better gearing options is alive and kicking. Do you think it has a place on the p line? Or just c line…

@woodybeck8077

6 ай бұрын

I have it on a “c”, but I have a 5speed on my “p”. I don’t think most people would want the extra pound or so.

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

Agreed 👍🏻@@woodybeck8077

This is actually a good idea. Now that more details are available this set up offers a good selection of gears in the crucial 40 to 70 inch area overcoming the gaps in the current 6 speed set up. 4 of them are clustered on the efficient direct gear of the hub too. Lighter and more efficient than your 11 speed Alfine perhaps? The P line is lighter than the C with more gears, but costs a good deal more.

@TheBromptonGuy

4 ай бұрын

Will have a look at the further dropped information!! Been busy with personal life but now getting a little more free time to catch up. 100% lighter my 11speed is proper heavy. I’ve had my P line for a couple of months now and yes it’s Sooooo expensive but damn it’s a great commuter bike

The SRAM Dual Drive system was used on Moultons for years: a 3-speed hub with a 7 or 9 speed derailleur, giving 21 or 27 gears. Single chainring. Best system I have ever used, with a very low granny gear at one end, and very high at the other. Perfect for touring, and very reliable over 1,000s of miles. Absolutely no confusion in using the two selectors. After touring many miles on 6 speed Bromptons in Europe and N America, my potential concern about a 12 speed Brompton would relate more to the reliability and robustness of the relatively recently introduced 4 speed derailleur. BTW I can’t see any point in having a 12 speed electric. I have a 6 speed e-Brompton, and I suspect that 3 speeds would be sufficient.

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

27gears!!! Sweet. Touring dream. Yeah an electric 12speed is strange and surely doesn’t have a market. Going to have a look at this dual drive system never researched it before.

I regularly see someone who works for the company with one of these; they don't want it photographed but there is no issue with saying it's coming up for release. The main part of the solution seems to be a lighter version of the BWR hub which comes in at around 800g with cabling, I'm told, if I want to fit it to my T-line later as an aftermarket option. I don't think it's a smart way to solve the problem, but on the other hand the BWR hub is very reliable, and the result should get one up every hill and keep a nice fast cruise on flats. If purchasing a new bike it might make sense to go for a 3-speed P-line or T-line.

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

Do you mean a P line with just a 3 speed hub and lose the 4 speed derailleur? Since the new hub looses 800g? Also this is great information for thanks for sharing

@edmundronald342

6 ай бұрын

It's a 12 speed P-line. Adding just the new hub to my 4-speed T-line would add 800g, so a 12 speed T-line would be under 10Kg even with contis. The T-line has a welded-on square cable holder at the rear already in place for this option, everyone knew this option was coming because TI welds are really expensive.

The deore 26/36 hollow crank should be an option,the gear range is excellent for hilly areas and with xt bearings is super durable and much stiffer than the standard setup.

@TheBromptonGuy

4 ай бұрын

Definitely going to look into this! Thanks for sharing

Have to say I agree with you, I think a solution with an extra front chainring is the more elegant. I am sure the boffins @ Brompton HQ could design a derailleur. Plus this would make it an easy upgrade for older models.

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

Glad our minds align! I mean they’ve already but some thought into it with the chain stay on the p line. I would be for a double chainring and the 4 speed at the back.

@lilliansullivan5867

6 ай бұрын

A dozen or more companies offer front derailleurs. Bromptons would need to design their own proprietary front derailleur because...why, exactly?

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

Brompton IMO love to control maximum profit on the Brompton which to me is the company's biggest downside. I get it they lose cuts if the buy Shimano or any other companies parts but it means they need to consistently spend lots of time and money in their own RND@@lilliansullivan5867

@finncarlbomholtsrensen1188

6 ай бұрын

@@lilliansullivan5867 As my Vision Kilo hadn't a holder for the front changer (When I changed to a full Shimano XTR), like my former GT Zaskar, I had to find out something. It is easy to find a - Shimano changer for the frame in front, and eventually a shifter by the saddle?

@finncarlbomholtsrensen1188

6 ай бұрын

It is easy to find a proper derailleur for the front, and eventually a shifter by - the seat. I have a chain-stop on top of my front chainwheel, which could easily be a Changer as well. But I honestly find the idea rather absurd and utterly useless. Finn. Denmark

Hi i have put a double chainring on my 2002 Brompton gives me 12 gears ie 6 speed x2 but have not found a way of shifting without doing manually,do think di2 could be the answer, in greece this year i managed to go up hills that have beaten me previously .😅enjoyed your rebuild of mline ,

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

Thanks for supporting. TBH I think a double chainring would be a better solution than di2 for an all round point of view but I love my di2 hub mainly cause 11 speeds are on one shifter and it's lowest range works very well for me, hell I managed to climb a mountain with it so can't be to bad. I reckon maybe ill need to look into a double front ring 🧐

@rundt7605

6 ай бұрын

@@TheBromptonGuy I wish I could justify the cost of what you did ,seems like a great upgrade ,but my compact chain ring is brilliant until it comes time to change to higher cog,IE get off do it by hand,have to think of a way to put a front derailleur on .

It would still have just two control levers as in the current 6 speed. To widen the range considerably how about a schumpf mountain drive?

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

The schumpf mountain drive is amazing... would love to see brompton use it.

There has been aftermarket 12spd bikes. They came out of work fine in Germany/France. The rear triangle was modified. They went to German internal gears.

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

Yeah certainly not new! However brompton must see how well it does and want in on the cut 🤣

The current 2 speed derailleur is the pits - often won’t return, gets gunged with muck when off road. If the 4 speed derailleur is a lot more reliable then I’d welcome matching that to the wide gear hub.

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

Completely agree with you on this. I just got a P line and time will tell if the 4 speed is any good.

Interesting to see that BrommiePlus posted a video 11 days ago, demonstrating the 3 x 4 set-up ... in fact they have posted two videos, one showing it on a C-Line, and the other showing on a P/T Line.

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

I did see that.. honestly come 2024 Brompton discussing will all be around 12 speed mods and hacks

@davidrowe8747

6 ай бұрын

@@TheBromptonGuy as I mentioned in my (much longer!) comment below, one consideration I hadn't thought of was the effect of hacking certain aspects of the Brompton build on the warranty ... I originally was considering the BrommiePlus 5 x 2 conversion, but was told that it could void my warranty. So I stuck with my original plan to purchase the C-Line Explore build with a 44T chainring. Time will tell if that meets my needs for an adventure folding bike. ;-)

When I spoke to Brompton customer service last year, he mentioned the derailleur gearing was the future and they were going to phase out the hub gears. It’ll be the P-line that gets the 10+ gears. The hub is great but archaic.

@TheBromptonGuy

4 ай бұрын

As a p line user and long term bike user I can confirm the Brompton derailleur setup isn’t perfect and find myself consistently having to tweak it. So I’m hoping it slow but surely updates its design.

That would be great

That derailleur puts the chain nearly in the floor. I like to ride my bike in all weather so - not for me thanks. I’d prefer it if Brompton retained the 3 speed hub and provided, say, an 8 and 11 speed hub. My current trouble-free 3 speed Brompton came to me from Evans Cycles at the start of 2015. My next Brompton will come to me in retirement via our Scottish friend 👍🏻

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

That is a very good point about the chain and is probably the reason it is a 4 speed and not a 6 speed like a lot of people would like, suppose if they did a 20inch wheel it could maybe go to a 6 speed! Who knows.... Glad you've managed to had great use out of your Brompton.

Are they going to replace the 6-speed models with the 12-speed ones, or will both options coexist for the electric Brompton?

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

I looked for information on this but couldn't find it anywhere. I reckon they will keep both but nothing to back that up. However I reckon the brompton line is going to start getting confusing.

Thanks for the Video. I will upgrade to anything they do with regards to gearing. The approach is a bit puzzling though. If they have to rework the rear triangle anyways, they should just widen it to fit standard width hubs and get - I don‘t know a di2 alfine or a enviolo for the electric.

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

Thanks for the input and great point about re work of the rear triangle, I back that fully. I’m curious, what would be your main reason for doing anything to the gearing?

@HolgerNestmann

6 ай бұрын

@@TheBromptonGuy I am living in a hilly area and do not pedal with much strength, but compensate with the right cadence. On the six speed I find myself either too fast or too slow often. And since I installed a 40t chainring I miss a little top end. But primarily I miss some in-between steps

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

Yeah I completely agree with that. I have one Brompton fitted with a 54t and another 42t. I personally prefer the 42t but do enjoy the flat speed of the 54t 😁. Who says one bikes fits all...@@HolgerNestmann

Would be much better to have a sram axs in the front and double chain ring for a clean and light weight setup on 4 speed bikes.

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

You and I think the exact same way brother 🤣

The translation I heard was," Pikes" and "Mobat"have had the 9speed for years now and are light years ahead of other tri fold bikes. Even using steel rather than Crmo is back dated,,, Brompton should have followed Steve Parry's directions years ago, as the sp 1 ,2,3 are fantastic models,.

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

Thanks for the input. 9 speed is a good level of range IMO

@lilliansullivan5867

6 ай бұрын

Dahon Curl D9 with disc brakes...if only Dahon would actually sell them to folks. : (

@BrownPeterAnthony

6 ай бұрын

@@lilliansullivan5867 Dahons are fantastic bikes, reliable gear shifting in all weathers. Disc brakes are a good idea on the small wheels as they wear out so quickly with rim brakes.

I want to see an internal cable routing Brompton. Same old material, should not add much cost and weight.

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

I agree as a road bike user that loves a clean cockpit. However will never happen but have thought about trying to do it on my M line brompton.

@joyousland

6 ай бұрын

@@TheBromptonGuy maybe it would cost less, if you use a non genuine Chinese imitation as testing ground. They cost very little for a frame only, eg Aceofix frame cost only £150

@joyousland

6 ай бұрын

@@TheBromptonGuy drive.google.com/file/d/1FsTs-HyGrAaBqmxR3XU7xb5YODHKEj3z/view?usp=drivesdk an example of half internal routed Chinese chrompton

What is "incredibly complicated" about a 4 speed dérailleur multiplying a 3 speed hub? Brompton already does this with a 2 speed dérailleur to get six speeds. I am pretty sure I could handle 4 speeds under my left hand, instead of just two. Why would I not? However, I am not sure that such an arrangement would be practical from an engineering point of view. Even if the dérailleur cassette were made just as "thin" as the current 4 speed, I am not sure there is sufficient breadth remaining in the hub to accomodate the BWR hub gear system. But, we shall see. If there is to be a 12 speed Brompton, I will enjoy seeing whether it is done by widening the rear triangle.

@HolgerNestmann

6 ай бұрын

if its widened anyways, I feel they should go all the way to fit a standard sized hub

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

Thanks for the response. When I say complicated picture it from a non cyclist POV and Brompton's main target audience are people that don't consider themselves cyclists. If you hadn't rode a bike for a while it would be hard to describe whats the most effective gear and how to correctly select it in comparison to a 12 speed hub which is simply geared in a number system as 1 to 12. Everyone that's cycled my M line (Alpine di2 hub) they are amazing and how simple it is to use and the obvs feedback given from the display to understand gearing. I to hope it leads to a wider rear triangle 🤞🏻

@scoops2007

6 ай бұрын

I don't think that there is a need to modify the existing OLD for the rear to fit in 4 gears. There has been a minimod 4 speed cassette available for a while which fits in the existing rear triangle and on the existing BWR so you can go 12 speed already if you like!

@effyleven

6 ай бұрын

​@@scoops2007Thanks scoops! That is something I did not know. If I HAD known, I could have saved myself a good deal of typing on my phone! 😅 Cheers!

@davidrowe8747

6 ай бұрын

It would be analogous to having a triple chainring set-up with a 4-sprocket cassette. Not impossible to figure out but, depending on the gear inches for each IGH/cassette combination, could end up being fiddly to figure out which combination is the "next" gear.

As an owner of an already now, much less than 2019 SuperlightM6LXBrompton (Mudguards and for now And a Brompton isn't exactly a "Racing Bike" on the small, heavy rolling wheels, so a high speed, unless when rolling down a hill, is rather unlikely! It is possible to buy an Asian option for a 7 gear shifter and a chain gear wheel for a Standard type Brompton, which is a more obvious, less weight and much less complicated solution! Finn. Denmark 🤔

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

Thanks for you input as always Finn! Was hoping you’d see this one.

@davidrowe8747

6 ай бұрын

Absolutely - figuring out the correct order of the 12 potential combinations of a double chainring, double sprocket "cassette" and triple IGH could be mind-blowing, when all you want to do is pedal along and move to the "next" gear!

In all fairness, if you need to climb double digits with Brompton, maybe that's not the right bike for it in the first place. Climbing a steep ramp with a double-digit gradient should be reserved for a climbing bike. You don't climb double digits lugging around an 11kg bike anyway.

@TheBromptonGuy

4 ай бұрын

Agree with you comment completely but I’m that strange person that gets pleasure from double digit Brompton climbs 🫣

Schlumpf x 6? Or Pinion?

@TheBromptonGuy

4 ай бұрын

Prob Pinion

Why are Brompton looking to expand the product the way you describe 🤨. Their bikes are time served and have already made a name which will last for eternity. Other brands try to compete and fail to meet the high bar set. I have an A line converted to a P line and am happy with the gearing range and have a 48 chain ring and 21 rear sprocket. I live where there are some hills and at 62yrs manage them. Brompton if it’s not broken don’t fix it !!

@HolgerNestmann

6 ай бұрын

Good for you. I however definately upgrade to the 12 speed setup.

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

I’m curious! If you say it’s not broken why fix it but you’ve obviously custom geared and changed your setup? I think this is what Bromptons trying to solve the problem with people always looking at ways to improve for fine tune gear setup for individuals. Because me personally I feel gearing (when limited due to the lovely fold) is super personal to the user. Thanks for sharing the input.

@TheBromptonGuy

6 ай бұрын

I’m definitely all for a 12speed but only if they put it into a larger rear hub. However so still believe the super lights shouldn’t have 12 speed

@finncarlbomholtsrensen1188

6 ай бұрын

@@TheBromptonGuy As a owner of a Superlight, I still find it hard to figure out the sequence of the gears as a row, when combining the outside and inside gears. The hub has a not so logical set up! Finn