It never gets old because it (the cleaned up version) was taught to us hundreds of times. Speaking for myself, after 20+ years of teaching this purified version as a missionary, Sunday school teacher and Institute teacher, the truth needs to be heard and reviewed hundreds of times to help neutralize the effects of hearing and teaching the non-truth whitewashed stuff hundreds of times.

When I was an LDS missionary 1974-76, our first missionary discussion related the "Joseph Smith story." We were required to memorize and repeat Smith's "first vision" as he had written it in 1838. I of course had no idea that there were several different versions of the alleged event, recounted by several different relatives and friends of Smith. When I began studying my way out of the church around 1997, I came across the versions by Oliver Cowdery, William Smith, and Lucy Mack Smith as mentioned in this presentation. That made it obvious to me that those people, two of which had known Joseph from his birth, and the third since 1828, could not have told such a different story of Smith's backstory unless they had heard it from Joseph. And that told me that Smith's 1838 version was just a story he concocted to bolster his bona fides. In 1838, the church had just been through the Kirtland scandals, and a lot of members had apostasized. Smith likely concocted his new version of his backstory to hold onto the followers he still had and to improve on his claims of divine authority. But over and above the conflicting versions which cast doubt on Smith's story, the number one issue which renders the first vision claim incredible is that during the 1820s, Smith and his family were actually up to their eyeballs in practicing occult folk-magic/treasure-digging. Smith was never the humble, prayerful, Bible-reading 14 year old that he claimed to be in his 1838 story; in fact, he was convicted of fraud via his peep-stoning activities in 1826. Smith's 1820s acquaintances described him as a lazy ne'er-do-well---basically, a bullshit artist. A vivid example of this is the affidavit of Peter Ingersoll, who had known the Smith family since 1822: "I lived in the neighborhood of said family, until about 1830; during which time the following facts came under my observation. The general employment of the family, was digging for money. "In the month of August, 1827, I was hired by Joseph Smith, Jr. to go to Pennsylvania, to move his wife's household furniture up to Manchester, where his wife then was. When we arrived at Mr. Hale's, in Harmony, Pa. from which place he had taken his wife, a scene presented itself, truly affecting. His father-in-law (Mr. Hale) addressed Joseph, in a flood of tears: "You have stolen my daughter and married her. I had much rather have followed her to her grave. You spend your time in digging for money -- pretend to see in a stone, and thus try to deceive people." Joseph wept, and acknowledged he could not see in a stone now, nor never could; and that his former pretensions in that respect, were all false. He then promised to give up his old habits of digging for money and looking into stones. Mr. Hale told Joseph, if he would move to Pennsylvania and work for a living, he would assist him in getting into business. Joseph acceded to this proposition. I then returned with Joseph and his wife to Manchester. One circumstance occurred on the road, worthy of notice, and I believe this is the only instance where Jo ever exhibited true yankee wit. On our journey to Pennsylvania, we could not make the exact change at the toll gate near Ithaca. Joseph told the gate tender, that he would "hand" him the toll on his return, as he was coming back in a few days. On our return, Joseph tendered to him 25 cents, the toll being 12 1/2. He did not recognize Smith, so he accordingly gave him back the 12 1/2 cents. After we had passed the gate, I asked him if he did not agree to pay double gatage on our return? No, said he, I agreed to "hand" it to him, and I did, but he handed it back again. "Joseph told me on his return, that he intended to keep the promise which he had made to his father-in-law; but, said he, it will be hard for me, for they will all oppose, as they want me to look in the stone for them to dig money: and in fact it was as he predicted. They urged him, day after day, to resume his old practice of looking in the stone. -- He seemed much perplexed as to the course he should pursue. In this dilemma, he made me his confident and told me what daily transpired in the family of Smiths. One day he came, and greeted me with a joyful countenance. -- Upon asking the cause of his unusual happiness, he replied in the following language: "As I was passing, yesterday, across the woods, after a heavy shower of rain, I found, in a hollow, some beautiful white sand, that had been washed up by the water. I took off my frock, and tied up several quarts of it, and then went home. On my entering the house, I found the family at the table eating dinner. They were all anxious to know the contents of my frock. At that moment, I happened to think of what I had heard about a history found in Canada, called the golden Bible; so I very gravely told them it was the golden Bible. To my surprise, they were credulous enough to believe what I said. Accordingly I told them that I had received a commandment to let no one see it, for, says I, no man can see it with the naked eye and live. However, I offered to take out the book and show it to them, but they refuse to see it, and left the room." Now, said Jo, "I have got the damned fools fixed, and will carry out the fun." Notwithstanding, he told me he had no such book, and believed there never was any such book, yet, he told me that he actually went to Willard Chase, to get him to make a chest, in which he might deposit his golden Bible. But, as Chase would not do it, he made a box himself, of clap-boards, and put it into a pillow case, and allowed people only to lift it, and feel of it through the case." End quote. Obviously, Ingersoll's personal experiences with Smith in 1827 contradicts Smith's claim of having been a humble, prayerful, Bible-reading young man who had been visited by God and Jesus in 1820 and tasked with the job of restoring the true gospel to the earth. No one who had had such a personal visitation from God and Jesus would have continued to lie, cheat, and prank people for several years afterward. And that, of course, means that Smith made up his "first vision" story after he had begun making claims about visits from the angel and golden plates in the summer of 1827. He didn't even write his first version of such a visit until 1831. And while Smith claimed that he "was persecuted for saying that I had had a vision," not a single person who knew Smith in the 1820s ever related any such experience with him. After Smith founded his church in 1830, and Mormonism was being noted and publicized, if any preachers or anyone else who had known Joseph in the 1820s were among those who supposedly persecuted or ridiculed him, not a single person ever came forward and related anything like that. So that is further evidence that no 1820 first vision ever happened.

@robinnetto6794

18 күн бұрын

Interesting story

Always my favorite Tribeca of Smart!! Reading, is a gift

Landon's on a roll -- good stuff.

10 minutes in and we're finally "getting started." Brevity is the soul of effective podcasts.

@DeathValleyDazed

7 ай бұрын

Yes, not sure if Mormon-ish hooking up with the inebriated Backyard Professor is a productive idea in the long run? I wonder if he settled down by the end of the two hour show? Actually, I believe Rebecca and Landon are enjoying a great launch to their podcast and hope they keep picking up momentum. Kerry Shirtz just gets in his own way too much for my preference but many others are big fans of his so overall I wish him well.

Appreciate your in-depth research. Interesting presentation on a complex subject.

Sweet, I got a shout out!

Sorry I missed this live. Gonna have to get on the notification list.

1:10:15 my parental grandfather joined this church as a teenager in the early 1900s. I’m sure this story was a defining moment for him in his decision. He was active his whole life and even bishop twice. age raised 5 kids in the church and passed away in 2001. Earlier this year I went to a medium just to try it out. In my session my grandfather came through and directly told me he apologizes for being so straight laced with the mormon church and said it’s okay to not be into religion anymore and to let go of any guilt and shame around it and said that being or not being in a religion doesn’t even matter anymore and in retrospect now he can see that he chose wrong.

I remember first hearing about multiple accounts of the First Vision in 1987 and someone pointing me to a 1986 Ensign article on it.

I have learned about the first visions which were new to me even after teaching the gospel. And Rebecca your use of trek is wicked cool. You are quickly becoming one of my favorite people. Love mormonish.

What sins had a 14 year old farm boy committed that required a visit from god?

Oh my alcohol, my phone needs a strong cup of coffee after letting me watch this very interesting but informative episode. I've never seen the "Backwards Professor" he seems very knowledgeable, can't wait to see his other stuff!

Clowns are terrifying: People who call you that are afraid of your truth bombs!

For the Mormon who has never cracked open the Holy Bible: Timothy 4, versus 3-4: "For the time is coming (e.g., 1830) when people (go look in the mirror) will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers (e.g., Joseph Smith) to suit their own passions and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths (e.g., the Book of Mormon)"...

If you read the document at the 51:00 mark, the second paragraph should be highlighted which says, "Thus, from the age of twelve years to fifteen I pondered many things in my heart..." because later as they stated JS himself said he was in his "16th year" of his life when the pillar of light appeared. At this point in 1832 JS was bout 27 years old when he wrote it down.

Skip to 12:50 to finally start getting a little bit into the topic in the title.

20:30 Ned Flanders: "Can't let this little doozy out"

Is this like the show Romper Stomper Bompor Bo tell me tell me tell me do……. I see Johnny and Rebecca , and Landon….. What show was that?????

Did JS write in a journal in the 1820’s? Is there any info in there that sheds light on a potential vision?

@randyjordan5521

7 ай бұрын

No, there is no documentary evidence of any such vision at all until 1832. From the Mormonthink site: "...none of the available contemporary writings about Joseph Smith in the 1830's, none of the publications of the Church in that decade, and no contemporary journal or correspondence yet discovered mentions the story of the first vision...." Dr. Allen goes on to state that in the 1830's "the general membership of the Church knew little, if anything, about it." Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1966, pages 29-45. As far as Mormon literature is concerned, there was apparently no reference to Joseph Smith's first vision in any published material in the 1830's. Joseph Smith's history, which was begun in 1838, was not published until it ran serially in the Times and Seasons in 1842. The famous "Wentworth Letter," which contained a much less detailed account of the vision, appeared March 1, 1842, in the same periodical. Introductory material to the Book of Mormon, as well as publicity about it, told of Joseph Smith's obtaining the gold plates and of angelic visitations, but nothing was printed that remotely suggested earlier visitations. In 1833 the Church published the Book of Commandments, forerunner to the present Doctrine and Covenants, and again no reference was made to Joseph's first vision, although several references were made to the Book of Mormon and the circumstances of its origin. The first regular periodical to be published by the Church was The Evening and Morning Star, but its pages reveal no effort to tell the story of the first vision to its readers. Nor do the pages of the Latter-day Saints Messenger and Advocate, printed in Kirtland, Ohio, from October, 1834, to September, 1836. In this newspaper Oliver Cowdery, who was second only to Joseph Smith in the early organization of the Church, published a series of letters dealing with the origin of the Church. These letters were written with the approval of Joseph Smith, but they contained no mention of any vision prior to those connected with the Book of Mormon. In 1835 the Doctrine and Covenants was printed at Kirtland, Ohio, and its preface declared that it contained "the leading items of religion which we have professed to believe." Included in the book were the "Lectures on Faith," a series of seven lectures which had been prepared for the School of the Prophets in Kirtland in 1834-35. It is interesting to note that, in demonstrating the doctrine that the Godhead consists of two separate personages, no mention was made of Joseph Smith having seen them, nor was any reference made to the first vision in any part of the publication. The first important missionary pamphlet of the Church was the Voice of Warning, published in 1837 by Parley P. Pratt. The book contains long sections on items important to missionaries of the 1830's, such as fulfillment of prophecy, the Book of Mormon, external evidence of the book's authenticity, the resurrection, and the nature of revelation, but nothing, again, on the first vision. The Times and Seasons began publication in 1839, but, as indicated above, the story of the vision was not told in its pages until 1842. From all this it would appear that the general church membership did not receive information about the first vision until the 1840's and that the story certainly did not hold the prominent place in Mormon thought that it does today. - Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1966,Vol.1, No.3, pp.29 - 45.

Several years ago when the Mormon Church was forced in the Ensign to disclose the rock and hat method of translation there were two or three pictures of Joseph translating. All of the pictures were the same old pictures of Joseph sitting at a table studying the plates and dictating to Oliver. Why put these pictures in the article instead of the rock in the hat? Well, a picture is worth a thousand words! The Mormon Church is not being more honest. The church is just being more cleverly dishonest.

@randyjordan5521

7 ай бұрын

The church now fully admits to the stone in the hat business. Church president Russell Nelson gave an interview in which he demonstrated how it "worked." But many true believing Mormons refuse to accept the facts. A lot of them still believe that all of the reports about the stone in the hat version were concocted by the disgruntled apostate Philastus Hurlbut, or by other dissenters such as David Whitmer.

Good gawd, just get to the content already. Intro fluff is to too much!

@emac1177

7 ай бұрын

Crank

@DancingQueenie

7 ай бұрын

Kerry’s schtick gets really old. FF about 5 minutes.

@DeathValleyDazed

7 ай бұрын

@@DancingQueenie I wonder if Mr Shirtz watches himself or reads the comments. He’s cluelessly enjoying himself at our expense.His Mormon history is excellent so I have to filter out the fluff to get to the basic content🥴

@MrHeybert

7 ай бұрын

It finally got going and was very informative

@DeathValleyDazed

7 ай бұрын

@@MrHeybertYes, I reviewed much of it and agree. I learned several history details that further destroyed the current Mormon Party Line.

6:30 in and still no content. What’s up with all the back slapping and self promotion?

@jeannemarie5908

7 ай бұрын

I am not fond of long introductions. Ugh ..

@rebeccabibliotheca

7 ай бұрын

This was a live show and there are so many people who love Kerry’s podcast in the live chat that everybody is talking back-and-forth and Kerry is reading the chat as he goes and he’s shouting out to everybody to say hello! It’s a lot of fun to watch a live episode, you should tune in and be part of the experience! We are going through each of the gospel topic essays and we’re about halfway through!

@jeannemarie5908

7 ай бұрын

@@rebeccabibliotheca Nah, I don’t care for loud drunks.

@DeathValleyDazed

7 ай бұрын

@@rebeccabibliotheca Thanks for taking the time reply. Consideration might be taken to cut all the live chat antics when you upload for the rest of us who did not go for the live broadcast. It’s like watching home movies of someone’s cocktail party.

@davidjanbaz7728

7 ай бұрын

​@@jeannemarie5908that was Joesph and Hyrum the night before their Carthage jailbreak !

Probably, best to lay off the booze man. Slurring words, over the top flamboyancy .. ugh. Exactly why I don’t hang out with drunks.

@six1nyne

7 ай бұрын

Woah! And drunks be like comments like this is why I don't hang out with mormons. Maybe you need to lay off the mormon kool-aid and have urself a tall glass of living water. Sober up and return when your of sober mind.

@jeannemarie5908

7 ай бұрын

@@six1nyne I ain’t Mormon. I have had my fair share of alcohol and I do drink occasionally. I DON’T get drunk. This man is old enough to know better than to make a fool of himself by being plastered while live for KZread. Yeah, I didn’t watch the show because I have been around enough drunks in my life and have seen too many alcoholics die of liver failure.

@six1nyne

7 ай бұрын

@@jeannemarie5908 yeah well I've been around drunks too and I partake occasionally and I know what plastered looks like. Kerry shirts is far from 3 sheets to the wind. He brings the same enthusiam to his podcasts when he was defending the church as he does now when he is tearing it down. Just kinda seems like a rude thing to say. I knew a dude mormon str8 arrow who was loud flamboyant and the star of his own show everytume he went out, and unlike u me and Kerry all he did was drink the mormon kool-aid aid. 😁. B nice.