I'll post this detailed comment from a subscriber on my other video about the raw files: This is from @UltimaGaina (huge thanks for all info here!) "Meanwhile I have a few more nerdy updates. I studied the DNG 1.6 standard and the newly released DNG 1.7 standard, and I have to partially rest my case when it comes to PRO mode DNGs. Basically, it is correct that in April 2023, Samsung switched from uncompressed RAW to 12 bit JPEG compression, inside a DNG container. But after studying the standard, I can confirm that we are talking about LOSSLESS JPEG compression. Here is that complicated paragraph: The DNG specification specifies that while Compression value 7 (JPEG) combined with a PhotometricInterpretation value 6 (YCbCr) or 1 (BlackIsZero) and a uniform BitsPerSample value of 8 indicates normal baseline JPEG compression, the same Compression value 7 (JPEG) combined with another PhotometricInterpretation value and/or another BitsPerSample value is also possible and should always indicate lossless JPEG compression (lossless sequential Huffman, SOF3). In our case, the compression tag has the value 7 and the Photometric Interpretation has the value 34892 (Linear RAW) which is different than 6 or 1, therefore we are dealing with LOSLESS JPEG compression. Now, we lost the ability to use the Lightroom Denoise AI algorithm, not because the JPEG compression, but because the file is demosaiced. The Photometric Interpretation of the uncompressed file was CFA (Color Filter Array), while the JPEG compressed file in Pro mode is demosaiced (Linear RAW). This is why it is not working with Denoise Ai in Lightroom. Now stay with me: the new version of GCam app is also using LOSSLESS JPEG inside the DNG container, but they preserve the CFA Photometric Interpretation of the original uncompressed file. This is why GCam DNGs are compatible with Lightroom Denoise AI. Why Samsung did adopt the same elegant solution? Beats me! Conclusion: While it's worse than before April 2023, it's not as bad as we thought: the Pro mode is still preserving (almost) all information. We can denoise it with Topaz Photo AI, instead of LightRoom Denoise AI, with comparable results. One more thing: the new DNG 1.7 standard has introduced a new, more efficient JPEG XL compression (using a new compression tag: 52546). (Google: CamCyclopedia JPEG XL) This is the compression used by Expert RAW on S24. It can be either lossless or lossy, but based on the very small file size (~6MB) it is very likely that it is lossy, or what Samsung is calling "visual lossless" (=bullshit). It is still worse than the Pro mode (except for the dynamic range), at it may still be made out of a stack of 8 bit JPEGs, combined into a 32-bit HDR file, and then tone-maped and compressed using the new JPEG XL compression. So if the original input is garbage (lossy 8 bit JPEGs), the output is just a smaller file containing the same original garbage." -comment provided by @UltimaGaina (thanks again!)

@clissonplage

3 ай бұрын

thank you Brent for this super interesting information I assume you had already imagined Gcam for S23 because looking at certain configurations, the photos are extraordinary Afterwards for the standard, if it's an official thing, Adobe will come to it

@Richard_GIS

Ай бұрын

The small file of around 6MB can be pumped up to 20-30 by enabling 'losless RAW' in the settings. Sorry no pro if that fixes that issues ;-)

The problem with Adobe's AI denoise is that it requires a Bayer pattern RAW.

Hey @BrentHall, have you tried switching "profile" in photoshop camera RAW just under the histogram? It looks like you are editing with samsungs expert pro profile, which applies a gamma mapping of some sort. Try Adobe standard. This should improve the results and simplify edits as its in linear and adjustments do what you expect them to do, which is not the case with that default samsungs profile. Hope this helps!

25:59 RAW ASTRO Best

Thanks for the showing the editing results between the different modes. Maybe it's worth to come back to astrophotography with the S24U in half a year again or so, because till then they might improve the quality with some updates. And about the quality of the pictures: since in my opinion photography is mostly a question of money, as in you buy a 5k+$ camera with a great lens and enjoy your epic results, it is really impressive to see such pictures coming from a phone. That is also why I'm pretty much only interested in mobile photography, because when you take insane pictures with your phone and show it to people and they find out that a phone took them, they are instantly shocked and almost in disbelief. While on the other hand, if you tell them that you took the picture with a 5k+$ camera, they think more like "just as expected from an expensive camera, cool, but expected" and the excitement goes out the window. That is why I'm really looking forward to how the cameras in phones will improve in the future. Thanks again for your time!

@user-ts1tq7hl7z

3 ай бұрын

No one wants to read your novel bro..

Thank you for an eye opener Brent! This is very important information for enthusiasts starting out in their astro journey or mobile photography journey in general, even for people who want to get every buck they spent from their smartphone cams. Truly inspiring the work and research you have done here. I know it was mentioned before but im very interested to see how the other smartphones stack up, especially the most praised ones in photography, the Google Pixel and Sony Xperia lines.

@BrentHall

2 ай бұрын

You're welcome, I'm glad the video helped! I'd love to test other phones, but unfortunately this is all I have.

@Anonnonon

2 ай бұрын

@@BrentHall Try doing like a patreon page were enthusiasts can support you, maybe someone can donate in the future to reach that goal. Again it's your channel, but I would love to see your professional take on other phones, most reviews just compare HDR and colors thats it, no knowledge in RAW files, compression, resolved details, etc .. At least think about it, maybe even one of your patreons can donate a phone in the future you never know.

Great work Brent. Hey I was just thinking can we use Siril for editing our RAW astro images? I guess a tutorial on that would be so cool. Load of love bro

@BrentHall

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, you certainly could. It's a shame the files aren't true raw anymore, but maybe other 3rd party programs like siril can read or process them better. I don't know, I haven't tried but if you have other programs like that it'd definitely be worth giving it a go.

@IM7CR

3 ай бұрын

@@BrentHall I tried editing a raw astro image taken from Samsung S22 Ultra on Siril, but man it was so confusing 😂 Tried some background extraction and green noise reduction and banding reduction, it worked well, but still I was a newbie to that software so couldn't generate a nice result.

Thanks for the informative video! Have you had a chance to test out the new lossless raw option in Expert RAW?

@noscamiam

Ай бұрын

I have tried it on my S24 Ultra and the banding issue has been greatly diminished probably because lossless is back 👍

Hello Brent Many thanks for taking the time to show us all this. Before we go any further, this is absolutely not a 4 minute exhibition! it's 4 minutes to do the astro! if you look with the lights of a plane passing at that moment, you will discover that there are only 7 photos taken from the beginning, we see the flashes of the plane's lights in the white line of long exposure it's even presense during the time when you can't stop the astro process with the trigger button then after, it's only the smartphone's calculation time to render Same with 7min with 9 photos and 13 for the 10min you can check it with a slow strobe light So yes, what is this astro mode? raws that are no longer there So for 4min, the JPG gives the best for the time allotted and without a computer it's not clean, but it's the best with the least effort but actually the S23ultra without comes out almost better with 1 year of updating Thank you again, it’s great to discover this with you

@BrentHall

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, I know it's stacking them during the 4 min exposures. I'm pretty sure I talked about that in this video, and I've also made older videos about it. Definitely a shame what Samsung did the raw files though.

One thing I'll state is that light room is not the be all end all RAW image editor, so I would see what other editing Socrates can access the DNG files. Yes the Adobe cult won't hear of anything else, but stating that the data is gone in the supposed RAW files being mangled. It's probably true, but there is a lack of evidence that no editor can read the Samsung RAW DNG files... I know that criticizing Adobe is forbidden but it's one of a plethora of choices. Even trying dedicated astronomy software or GIS / remote sensing software that can read DNG raster data, and Microstation uses the DNG extension... get a trial license of FME FORM, see if it can read it, not likely, but who knows. Should anyone never to jump through hoops, absolutely not, SAMSUNG should fix this and standardize things, even offering up all the prestacked component images to let people use PixInsight or DeepSky Stacker try and make better processed results from the component files.

@BrentHall

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, that's a true story, for sure. To be fair I never said it was. I'm just using what I have, and I'll be honest, I just don't feel like putting in the time or effort to mess with these phone images that much. There very well may be better programs out there for editing these new samsung files, but my main problem is with samsung gutting their raw images and basically turning them into weird lossless jpegs inside the dngs. It's really unfortunate for anyone who wants to get the most out of their images.

@spidersj12

3 ай бұрын

@BrentHall Brent, you're absolutely right in the points you make. Kind of reminds me of when I started seeing the option in programs that exported TIFs where you could use JOG compression... no, it didn't make the TIFs unusable, but for me, the whole point of a TIF is 16-bit lossless, not 8-bit lossy. Samsung should have set up their phones to give the owner/user/licensee of their phones, the option to have true uncompressed RAW DNGs that the software convinced into these astrophotography, expeet RAW, Pro Photo mode shots. I say option because it would take up a lot, not space on your phone, and you'd have to migrate those photos of your phone more frequently to avoid filling up your phone.

Did ExpertRAW 3.0.04.4 fix the hard colorbanding in lowlight? First test photo looks ok.

Thank you for your time and insights. So just to clarify, are these dodgy dng files from pro mode or expertraw? For the S22 and S23 they did something weird to expertraw but I was able to rely more on the pro mode in the past. Don't tell me they've ruined that too!

@BrentHall

3 ай бұрын

It's for both now, but they're booth processed/compressed slightly differently. It's weird. If you want to know more, check out this pinned comment in this video: kzread.info/dash/bejne/hoKIm8mdo5DVkaQ.html&ab_channel=BrentHall

@donnawetter1513

3 ай бұрын

ProMode is completely pointless, the dngs have the same dynamic range as the jpg. Only way to recover details is to use raw with 3rd party apps.

Very informative, would the google 8 pro be the better choice?

@BrentHall

3 ай бұрын

I have no idea. I've never tried one. This is all I have, unfortunately.

The thing is... the sensor is 200 mpx, the max res you can have is 50 I think it has to do some weird stuff to the raw file... I noticed using s21 and s23 that the expert raw app is doing stacking as you said and it's editing the photo already. Even though the pro mode it's not a pure raw file it'so much better in terms of " rawness " ahah

@BrentHall

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, there's a lot of weirdness going on with samsung files these days. If you want to know more, check out this super in-depth pinned comment on this video: kzread.info/dash/bejne/hoKIm8mdo5DVkaQ.html&ab_channel=BrentHall

@Faxthechannel

3 ай бұрын

@@BrentHall Thank you so much I remember that video I have to say spmething Since expert raw came out on the s21 Ultra it has always been less raw tham the regular pro app, maybe after aprile 2023 update it's just worse, but it wasn good for that already at the beginning. I also wanted to underline that, at least in the 3x and the 10x on the regular pro mode, you got 10 mp image, while con expert rax a 12mp one That's why if I really want the less computational process possible I'd go with that mode, but still, unfortunately it's not a pure raw file as you said... That's a shame, I hope Samsung can bring back the pure dng files, at least in the pro mode.

@IIISentorIII

3 ай бұрын

@@Faxthechannel for the love of god, can you not write like 12 year old please.

I have a question, what is the size of the picture u've taken in a Expert Raw mode ?

Thanks for that review, Brent. Very interesting. Samsung has announced a camera update for the S24 series (and the S24 Ultra in particular?). Would you consider revisiting this scenario after the update? (I haven't got the update yet, so really don't know what's involved.)

@BrentHall

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, I'll definitely check it out, but I highly doubt they will be addressing this issue, as I don't think samsung views this as an actual issue. It's what they designed and want. But I'll check it out and see what happens, for sure.

@donnawetter1513

3 ай бұрын

The update did not fix anything regarding the raw scam.

@markmacaroni7

3 ай бұрын

Weekd later now... Any Updates?

@markmacaroni7

3 ай бұрын

​@@BrentHall updates on this matter ? 3 weeks later from post

@donnawetter1513

3 ай бұрын

@@markmacaroni7 There is nothing to update as Samsung did not address any of this (except colorbanding in ExpertRAW with 3.0.04.4)

Interesting video, personally I've been disappointed with the s23u & 24u camera overprocessing.

@BrentHall

3 ай бұрын

Same.

thank you for your video

@BrentHall

3 ай бұрын

You're welcome, thanks for watching!

Did someone try an older version of Expert Raw on phones with firmware of today? Older app versions should still be available on APK mirror. Then we would know if it's done in the app or in camera / api firmware below app level.

@markmacaroni7

2 ай бұрын

Did u find the answer to this ..lol i actually posted this in variaous places...(u had my same question) 🗯 "or could we simply use/install an OLDER version/apk of Expert Raw...and just refrain from Updating App?"

@giampaolo9576

2 ай бұрын

il problema non è nell'app, ma è il metodo di compressione dei raw che genera samsung, se installi l'app gcam , e scatti in raw,puoi utilizzare la riduzione AI in lightroom.

Hey, I am new to this but I noticed you used the 12M mode instead of 50M which is the default/actual size of the sensor. So I was wondering if avg pixels from 50 to 12 has something to do with the dng image being a weird raw. And maybe if you select 50M it's the proper RAW you want. Just a thought, haven't tried googling about it properly

@alejandroxplres

3 ай бұрын

Hahah the 50mpx is because off bining so basicaly just ai compilining pixels you wouldt have so much light because off that process and probably world resoults

@hemangkumawat907

3 ай бұрын

@@alejandroxplres yes you are right but it's also the other way around the sensor is actually 50MP and whatever algo bins them together to come down to 12. Given each pixel on those 12, more clarity etc..

Is this an issue the s23 has as well... Or will it have it w an update....

He’s bang on with the raw images, I bought s24 ultra and the other mages are terrible. Raw files are processed. Which defeats the whole point. Today I shot a lot of images and video, absolute awful. I punched this 2 days ago from amazon. Sending it back Monday morning. No more dodgy Samsung’s for me.

@thelumiereguy

3 ай бұрын

Same here!!

Just found an old ProMode DNG from the S22u, everything works there, but of course if you use the S22U with updated firmware today, raw support has also been patched out.

@BrentHall

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, it's definitely a bummer, what Samsung did.

@donnawetter1513

3 ай бұрын

@@BrentHall In the Korean forum someone posted a few things that need to be considered for JPGXL to work lossless, maybe it is just a simple bug no one noticed.

@donnawetter1513

3 ай бұрын

@@BrentHall "Samsung's engineers seem to have set the wrong encoding options for JPEG XL. People always expect a raw image format to store the exact pixel data from the sensor, so the compression must be lossless. A JPEG XL will only encode lossless if: - A colorspace is specified. Otherwise the pixel data is converted to the XYB colorspace. - The VarDCT mode must never be used. This option is used to "recompress" a lossy JPEG image without generation loss. - The raw image must always use the mathematically lossless (-d 0) option. Only final rendering can accept the visually lossless (-d 1) option."

or could we simply use/install an OLDER version/apk of Expert Raw...and just refrain from Updating App?

Rainbow lense ring visible in every raw photo in exynos

Why does my ligthroom and Photoshop can't read my raw files from my s24 ultra?

More astrophotography with s24 ultra

Am a bit surprised with the size of pictures you are getting , as on my s22 ultra, the picture size on expert raw is over 20MB and way more clearer

what's the best free desktop app for editing raw photos

@BrentHall

Ай бұрын

I don't know. I've only ever used photoshop. I'd just type that question into the YT search and see if there's some videos out there about it. I'm sure there are.

I think samsung is aware and supposedly doing something about the raws but yeah this is terrible currently... theres definitely weird stuff with the processing in general, sometimes photos are great and other times complete trash and I have noticed a few times after taking a shot the picture it shows you before the processing finishes looks better an more detailed and this has happened with raw photos too which is odd... I would love a button I can hit somewhere that would just take 100% raw unprocessed photos... samsung please

@donnawetter1513

3 ай бұрын

This has the level of a scam, pretending to save dng files that offer no more value as the jpgs.

They all look like they were shot at high noon. I like the raw astro the best.

@BrentHall

3 ай бұрын

Yeah...that would be the moonlight.

I'm really impressed of what a mobile camera is capable of but it's such a shame that Samsung sell us their fancy bs about their cameras, megapixels etc etc and then wrap a bunch of JPEGs into a DNG. I wonder is there any 3rd party app that allows you to use all this camera potential and not waste it. Even though i do really like how 4 min astro sky looks like, but overall normal pro mode looks the best of all of them for my liking

La riduzione del rumore AI su lightroom,non è compatibile perché il file raw generato dall'app pro o expert raw,è compresso in jpeg,non è un vero file raw non compresso,l'ho fatto presente a samsung,che mi ha confermato;s22 ultra aveva i raw non compressi,all'uscita di s23 ultra,ci fu un grosso aggiornamenti,e da lì in poi,anche s22 ultra perse il raw non compresso,xiaomi,oppo,vivo,generano file raw veri non compressi in jpeg,solo samsung,si ostina a comprimere i raw,spacciandosi per raw lavorabili,quando non lo sono;chi ama la fotografia snartphone non deve scegliere samsung,ma xiaomi 14 ultra,vivo x100 pro o oppo find x7 ultra.

My understanding is that pro mode dng is true RAW and expert raw dng is fake raw. Is this correct?

@BrentHall

3 ай бұрын

I don't think either are truly raw anymore. The pro mode images are much larger in file sizes, indicating less compression, but still have some weirdness going on, possibly being slightly compressed as some sort of lossless jpeg inside the dng container. The expert raw images are much more compressed and are most definitely more of a lossless jpeg . I'll admit, I don't know all of what's going on with the files, there's just more research to do about it than I care to do, but if you want to know more of the really tech-y stuff, check out the pinned comment on this video: kzread.info/dash/bejne/hoKIm8mdo5DVkaQ.html&ab_channel=BrentHall

@donnawetter1513

3 ай бұрын

Currently Samsung fakes everything, real raw is only available with 3rd party apps (only 12MP of course).

@eos777

3 ай бұрын

Actually Expert RAW seems to be JPG XL instead of any raw. The standard camera app's DNG look more like RAW but seem to be cooked as well.

@donnawetter1513

3 ай бұрын

@@eos777 ProMode DNG has no recovery potential for Highlights and Shadows compared to the JPG, they don't look more like raw at all. While a 3rd party app produces a real raw.

Did you try using a third party app to shoot raw? Would like to see a comparison. If you already did ignore this. 😂

@BrentHall

3 ай бұрын

No, I just used the native app.