I’m soooo excited to see a new video from you David!

David, Please try the magic eraser to clean the stones. The eraser will quickly lift the swarf off the surface of the stones. ZERO wear to the stone will occur. The cutting performance is dramatically improved with no other impact on the stone. The Orion stones wear very slowly if at all. The feedback off the Orion stones is not as good as the Matrix stones. They do not cut as quickly as a freshly cleaned Matrix stone. 1. I prefer the Matrix stones by a large margin. 2. The only Orion stone that is my "Go To" is the re-profiling stone. 3. Cleaning the Matrix stones only removes the metal swarf from the surface. The magic eraser just lifts off the metal from the surface. (best way to get maximum cutting) 4. Dressing the stones is a different from cleaning the surface. The dressing process removes resin and exposes new diamond abrasive. 5. The Matrix stones were dressed when new, only to follow the suggested use from Edge Pro. 6. The Matrix stones wear at such a slow rate that they have stayed very close to original condition after hundreds of sharpenings. PS: I posted a video on the topic of cleaning the Matrix stones with the Magic eraser. Check it out.

David, I have used and enjoyed your Matrix stones for years now (hundreds of knives sharpened). The quality of the machining, the uniformity of the resin bonded stone and the abrasives in the resin are superior to all the other options in the market. Prior to the war in the Ukraine the Venev Orion stones were $35.00 each while the Matrix stones were $50- $59 each. At the lower price the Orion stones were a great value and got the job done. The pricing currently is about the same for either brand, clearly the Matrix stones are better. Pro's: 1. Better quality 2. They cut better if cleaned with "Magic Eraser" sponges. 3. The stones wear little if at all. (hard to believe but true, I track the thickness of the stones with calipers and keep notes in a spreadsheet) 4. The feedback or feel of the stone is very satisfying to me, this is a bigger issue than you might think. 5. Outstanding for re-profile and repair work. (250 grit and up..) 6. Cuts super steel very quickly, Maxamet, M4, ZDP189, K390, S110VN. I mostly carry and use steel in the 62-68 Rockwell range. Cons: 1. The 80 grit stone has resin that is too soft and the burr tends to get stuck in it. 2. The stones load up and loose cutting efficiency. (fixed by cleaning up after each use) 3. Dressing the stones can be a problem if you use too much force, the dressing media can get stuck in the resin. The Orion Stones: Pro's 1. The 80 grit stone is my re-profiling stone 2. The resin is less apt to load up 3. The resin does not get the burr stuck in it. (Harder or more resistant to picking up metal) 4. Slightly more forgiving in terms of loading up Con's: 1. Not as refined in terms of quality. 2. Slightly less pleasing feedback (feels like the stone is not subtly biting into the steel, less resistance or traction across the stone surface) It is less tactile... 3. Price is now the same as the Matrix stones. (Not as good a value at this price point)

@CGSW

Жыл бұрын

Thank you for this but I have to respond to a few things, using your numbers. Cons: 1. Yes the resin is on the soft side for the 80 making it less aggressive so it doesn't hog metal as well, but it doesn't do as much damage to the steel either. You can still reprofile with it but you MUST no let the swarf build up as it WILL wear the stone, just like the loose abrasive used to dress it. 2. The stones cut way too aggressively right after dressing, and settle down after sharpening a knife or two. A freshly dressed Matrix stone leaves deeper scratches than one that is broken in. If you keep them wet while sharpening they should not need any cleaning or dressing for many sharpenings, say around hundreds of knives with the 250 and up to 50-60 with the 4000, with the others in between. What you call load up I call breaking in. 3. I have yet to find any dressing media embedded in the stones ever, and I have tried to do it many times and inspected the stones with my microscope. How do the Orion stones compare to the Matrix stones for wear? The resin in the Orion stones seems to have a filler that makes it much more prone to wear than what they used a few years ago. I believe they did this to make them easier to dress, so they would wear some in use exposing new abrasives, and work better for the finer stones.

@barkingspider2007

Жыл бұрын

David, Please try the magic eraser to clean the stones. The eraser will quickly lift the swarf off the surface of the stones. ZERO wear to the stone will occur. The cutting performance is dramatically improved with no other impact on the stone. The Orion stones wear very slowly if at all. The feedback off the Orion stones is not as good as the Matrix stones. They do not cut as quickly as a freshly cleaned Matrix stone. 1. I prefer the Matrix stones by a large margin. 2. The only Orion stone that is my "Go To" is the re-profiling stone. 3. Cleaning the Matrix stones only removes the metal swarf from the surface. The magic eraser just lifts off the metal from the surface. (best way to get maximum cutting) 4. Dressing the stones is a different from cleaning the surface. The dressing process removes resin and exposes new diamond abrasive. 5. The Matrix stones were dressed when new, only to follow the suggested use from Edge Pro. 6. The Matrix stones wear at such a slow rate that they have stayed very close to original condition after hundreds of sharpenings. PS: I posted a video on the topic of cleaning the Matrix stones with the Magic eraser. Check it out.

Thank you for this video! I always use to sharpen using the scrubbing motion, I’m now realizing I might be doing way more passes than necessary.

@CGSW

Жыл бұрын

When I got my microscope it really changed how I sharpen, all of a sudden I could see what was happening.

@Hvac.tools_

Жыл бұрын

@@CGSW I recently invested in a microscope as well. Its been very helpful! Do I have to dress my stones even if I keep them clean ? I don’t know why im so intimated by dressing the stones. I think im going have to just go for it seemed do able, I watched you video looks like I can buy a piece tile and 240 grit aluminum oxide.

@CGSW

Жыл бұрын

@@Hvac.tools_ Yes, you need and want to dress your stones, all of them. Don't be intimidated by it, it's not hard and the rewards are great, even for your vitrified bond stones. You want to use loose abrasives vs fixed like another stone or sand paper, the way the abrasives cut is totally different. Being able to dress your stones correctly will make about as big of a difference in your sharpening as getting a microscope, it will be a game changer. You will be surprised at how much better your old stones will work, I was.

My venev Orion stonescare warped too. I can still get very sharp knives, but it does suck leaving performance on the table.

Nice to see the comparison video between the two most important series. Are the venev stones same thickness after dressing. Didn't see you compensating for the thickness. Also as a suggestion, you could have combined sharpening with matrix stones on one side and Orion on the other.

@CGSW

Жыл бұрын

After dressing them the F80 to F800 measured .245-.256 so I didn't quite need to compensate. The F1200 was .232-.238 so it increased the angle slightly, which I do anyway with my last stone to make sure I am getting to the apex. I never made a compensator for this sharpener, it's been on the things to do list for 4 years so maybe one day. I don't think the software I use could handle that, it is definitely something I need to improve on. Still, the two side by side videos would be identical.

I have wanted that exact knife for so long and now that its priced at 300 its just hard to justify

@CGSW

4 ай бұрын

I was eying one for awhile but then when it was coming out in S90V I had to get it.

Man I love your work. Are the "grits" // µm you showed here still available..? The video showed your stones as: 35 µm, 17 µm, 8 µm, + 5 µm, But when I look at ordering, the options are: 160 µm, 80 µm, 40 µm, 20 µm, 10 µm and 5 µm. Also ... others provide their (claimed) range (biggest + smallest substrate). It looks like you have a tighter tolerance of particulate range, have you considered using such a range..? Before watching I thought of asking if you ever make

@CGSW

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, we changed the grit sizes on 3 of the stones so the jumps between them are exactly 100% bigger for each step. What size each step should be depends on what you are sharpening and how repeatable your sharpener is, of course there is no universal best. The jumps we use are somewhat conservative but the smaller steps help ensure each stone removes the scratches from the last more easily. If you have the old stones don't worry, your not missing out on anything. You would only notice a difference if you have both on your bench and can swap back and forth. When we have done this we tend to like the new grits, but the difference is tiny. I have real doubts about the abrasive size in the finer Venev stones. Compared to mine, which I do know are accurate, the Venevs leave a far coarser finish for what abrasive size they claim the stone uses. My experience is 5 micron is about as small as you can go with diamond for most steels, and too small for softer steels. For ultra hard steels like Maxamet I can go down to 3 or 4 micron and for good ceramics I can go down to 2 or 3 micron. What I think says this abrasive is too fine for this bond is I start to see random stray scratches instead of the nice even scratches I normally see. You want to change to strops before the random scratches as they are deeper and don't clean up as easily with the next grit.

great vid sound advice. what strength magnets are in the table holding the blade?

@CGSW

Жыл бұрын

I think N48 but forget. All the magnets are 1/2" wide and most are 3/4" long and 1/8" thick. The ones in this table may be 1/4" thick which is too much power. The rubber matters too as the different types have different levels of "stickiness" to the blade. There are a lot of details to getting it right.

@alexpeach6615

Жыл бұрын

@@CGSW thanks, im making a blatant copy of your setup(sorry) its by far the best ive seen. the magnets im planning to get have 4kg pull and am planning on using 3 or 4. thanks for taking the time to reply.

@CGSW

Жыл бұрын

@@alexpeach6615 I settled on two 1/8"x1/2"x3/4" magnets for the 2" blade table and three for both the 3" and 5" blade tables, and still playing with the rubber as different durometers change which type to use. Good luck and hope to see it when you are done.

Im buying a hapstone R2. Im a beginner but would like to get a mirror finish on my bugout with s90v. Can you recommend which diamond stones I should i buy?

@CGSW

Жыл бұрын

The short answer is to start with the 4000 and go down as far as you want to spend. What stones do you have that will work on this steel?

Every time I look at your sharpening video, I always wonder about your sharpening system..it look rigid,sturdy and simple, something that I would like to own..any chance you making those fixed angle system for sale😁

@CGSW

Жыл бұрын

This sharpener will never make it to production.

@zoulrasta

Жыл бұрын

@@CGSW my guess is expensive to produce 🤔 or just trying to maintain it exclusiveness..anyway keep up the good work..liked the info shared and the comparison video

@CGSW

Жыл бұрын

@@zoulrasta The main issue is Edge Pro has been my customer for 29 years so I can't compete with them.

@zoulrasta

Жыл бұрын

@@CGSW thanks for the explanation and transparency

That’s an amazingly smooth and sharp edge! How come you go away from the sharp edge with your stone vs into the cutting edge? Everyone else I see using diamond stones is pushing into the cutting edge

@CGSW

Жыл бұрын

While looking at my edges under the microscope I noticed that I get noticeably less microchipping with edge trailing vs edge leading passes. Of course I don't see microchipping on all knives but some steels and all ceramics are susceptible to it. Because of this and many other things I think edge trailing is better.

What sharpener is that ?

@CGSW

Жыл бұрын

I made it myself. I wanted the most stable sharpener I could think of for developing the Matrix stones and this is what I came up with. It needs a more stable base, the videos sure show this, but the knives do repeat very well when swapping them from side to side.

@joemisak7925

Жыл бұрын

You make the matrix stones for EP? I’d like to try them

@CGSW

Жыл бұрын

@@joemisak7925 Yes, and a few other things.

What sharpener is this your using? Looks like edge pro but on steroids.

@CGSW

Жыл бұрын

I made it about 5 years ago because I needed a more stable platform to test/develop the Matrix stones on. I am making 2 new parts for it today-ish so stay tuned.

Точилку купил, абразивы купил, а умение точить не купил, финиш хотя бы делай от зерна. На себя движение заворачивает и вытягивает заусенец.

I have both of them.. In all honesty they are both great but there are advantages to Venev🙏 First of the resin on matrix is incredibly soft and you can easily cut a chunk of stone with the tip so you have to be careful and second problem is the load up, imposdible to clean unless resurfaced/dressed🙏 3rd is the price.. I bought my 3mm venev all set for 180$US 3years ago and i payed 350$US for set of matrix stones for 1.6mm but, butbutbut🙏 I used 0.26mm of matrix stone in 3years and believe me i sharpened 100s of knives so price will make no difference cause these stone will last you a lifetime.. In short you can go wrong with either of them but i do like the soft feel of matrix but 25% venev 1200fepa polishes better but its marginal... Performance need no adressing.. They are amazing❤

@CGSW

7 ай бұрын

There are advantages and disadvanteges to both stones. These are my babies so I am somewhat prejudiced but have done a lot of work to develop and improve them so have gained a lot of knowledge on the subject. When I have time I do try out different resins in an attempt to improve what I am making, I am not complacent thinking I don't need to improve. The resin in the Matrix stones is on the soft side which favors the finer grits, but the resin is too hard for anything finer than 5 microns, and a bit too soft for the 250 and 80. The Venevs now use a heavily filled phenolic resin to promote water absorbtion and wear. The originals were nearly impossible to dress, the new versions dress/wear noticeably faster than the Matrix stones. You have to keep the Matrix stones wet when using them or they will load up and lose a lot of performance quickly. If you keep them wet I can sharpen 40-70 knives with the finest stones before needing to dress them, the coarser the stone the longer between dressings. I have been playing around trying to come up with an easier way to clean and restore my stones. I made some Nagura stones that are just for resin bond stones and they work quite a bit better than anything else that I have tried, but loose grit on a flat plate works about 10 times better for the small stones so that project is off the front burner. It's real hard to compete on price with a poor country known for cheap labour, even for Russia, which is why they are made in Ukraine instead of Russia. The only way I could do that is to sell direct with no markups. The Matrix stones are designed not to wear in use so they should last much longer. The diamonds don't dull so having the stone wear in use is something I disagree with, which is what the Venevs are now designed to do. I have to disagree that the Venev 1200 polishes better than the Matrix 4000. While it kind of does it leaves deeper stray scratches than the Matrix which are then harder to polish out with the next finer stone. The Matrix stones do leave a more consistent scratch pattern and create smaller burrs for the same grits. If this isn't true for you then they need dressed. In the last few days I have finally come up with the next steps past the Matrix 4000. One new resin works down to 1 micron without rounding the apex from being too soft, it's stiffer than leather. I have a softer resin than works on finer diamond but it does round the apex some so you have to be careful not to make too many passes. The new resins are only for polishing, or sharpening ceramics, and work better than anything I have used yet so stay tuned!

@georgeyoung4292

7 ай бұрын

I agree with everything you said David.. But let me tell you, they are my babies too cause i cant imagine using alox stones anymore.. Ok adressing Russia as poor country with cheap labour is misinformation in the extreme David.. Russian people and their living standards are higher than living standard in USA now🙏 1200F venev (25% concentration) have a bit better polish but its very marginal cause i use them both.. On issue of water with matrix, i now only use oil only drop in tissue and wipe will completely prevent loading and more important it just wipes away completely after sharpening but that matter of opinion cause i realize even when they look dirty it doesnt impact the performance... I love both equally to be honest and the layer of abrasive is also not very important cause they are incredibly durable (matrix i have 4years and 100s of knives maybe 700 and i worn from 1.6mm to 1.22mm now) so for me price difference is irrelevant but for poor people its not and more consistent scratch pattern David its totally irrelevant cause most people are not gonna look at the edge under microscope and 25% 1200# venev leaves beautiful finish, just as good as 4000# matrix.. For earthlings it comes down to quantity/quality/cost ratio.. I am unbiased user of both and im just giving my opinion for others from my experience. Thats all

@CGSW

7 ай бұрын

I didn't say Russia was a poor country with cheap labor, I said Ukraine was. The statistics I have heard is they are the poorest in Europe. I only tried oil once, with mineral oil, and I wetted the stones with it. I didn't like how the oil retained the swarf vs how water washed it away. I do believe oil is the better lubricant for cutting but I don't know how much that matters on this application. The more consistent scratch pattern is important when progressing through the grits as the next finer stone will remove the scratches from the previous stone quicker with less metal removed. I know not everyone looks at their edges through a microscope and I don't always either. But the microscope is good for showing you what is going on. This is handy when you are trying to figure out what other clues you have are trying to tell you. Just like using a BESS tester, it is a good measurement of the width of your apex if nothing else. I don't think much in the knife world we are playing with is too controlled by the quantity/quality/cost ratio, there are many other forces at play here.

@georgeyoung4292

6 ай бұрын

​@@CGSWVenev is made in Russia David.. Poltava is Ukraine and Hapstone is made by Poltava , likewise Practical Sharpening🙏 I agree with on oil vs water.. Actually i used them with both anf still do.. Water gives better feedback but oil completely prevent loading (all of it , just wipe it off) I love these stones men both of them Venev and Matrix.. I just purchased 2 just now 2300# & 4000#..

@georgeyoung4292

6 ай бұрын

​@@CGSWIm just giving you my feedback David.. Im just enthusiast and i always give my honest analise cause ive been a user and a fan from the very begining. There is one more attribute of matrix that i love.. They make no burr i mean almost zero ... Id like to learn what the mechanic behind this property.. Thank you for everything David and for responding to users like me❤🙏