Dutch pronunciation: the letters V, W and F | Nederlandse uitspraak alfabet: V, W, F.

This is an extra video - to the Dutch alphabet and pronunciation lesson. Extra les Nederlandse uitspraak / Nederlands alfabet. De letters V+W+F.
www.learndutch.org/dutch-alpha...
In this lesson discuss in detail the letters “v”, “w” and “f”. This video is especially helpful to those that do not hear the main differences in the main video lesson about the Dutch alphabet. To help you learn well to the pronunciation - in this video the music is turned off. I made the lesson after frequent requests when having made the general alphabet lesson. Learning the Dutch alphabet correctly is extremely important when learning Dutch.
Extra video les: Nederlands alfabet / Nederlandse uitspraak / Uitspraak van Nederlandse letters / Uitspraak in het Nederlands.
Op verzoek gemaakt - extra les om het verschil tussen de V, de W en de F goed uit te leggen. Omdat de precieze klanken van deze letters in elke taal weer net iets anders liggen, is dit belangrijk goed te begrijpen. De muziek is in deze video uitgezet om de uitspraak goed te kunnen horen.
Bart de Pau - Dutch teacher at Dutch Summer School
www.dutchsummerschool.nl/

Пікірлер: 250

  • @gulliput
    @gulliput8 жыл бұрын

    it would help to be able to see the mouth of the speaker to understand how the sound is being made

  • @charleywopat9006

    @charleywopat9006

    2 жыл бұрын

    I fully agree. If have hearing difficulties and occasionally speaking difficulties, so I can't always understand people and they can't always understand me. When I'm listening to someone it helps to see their head and throat to see what kind of sounds they're making, but this video unfortunately lacks this. It's got some lovely music and slideshow, though!

  • @MrMbritt64
    @MrMbritt647 жыл бұрын

    VERY helpful to this native English speaker. I've spoken dutch since 1983 and I've been making the mistakes you mentioned this whole time. Thanks for the GOOD information!

  • @mavadelo
    @mavadelo4 жыл бұрын

    Ik heb aardig wat Amerikaanse vrienden en deze videos zijn een goudmijn om ze het Nederlandse alfabet te leren begrijpen.. dank je wel :)

  • @_Executor_
    @_Executor_7 жыл бұрын

    I liked how you give tips for non english native speakers. I know a little of german and without this video i would have pronounce the "v" and "w" in the same way. I thank you a lot.

  • @EthemD
    @EthemD2 жыл бұрын

    I'm quite impressed by the final international remarks at the end. Bedankt voor de heel goede les, zou ik mijn vrienden aanraden.

  • @webrarian
    @webrarian9 жыл бұрын

    Superb! The only improvement would be to see your mouth as you say "w". The historical change in the Netherlands (but not so much in Belgium) is fascinating.

  • @denizesouza3232
    @denizesouza32323 жыл бұрын

    I honestly never saw a better video than this channel, congratulations to the creator. It deserves my applause👏👏👏, I believe these are the best lessons I see on KZread, the best pronunciation lessons. This teacher is wonderful for his patience in explaining the pronunciation of the letters so extremely in detail; which I have never been able to understand in any other Dutch language study channel. I feel blessed by God that there is a teacher on earth who really loves helping others to reach an absolute level of Dutch quality. Heartfelt thanks to Professor Bart💖

  • @conillet
    @conillet8 жыл бұрын

    Awesome - clear and detailed explanation. Dankjewel, Bart!

  • @deborahkristensen9344
    @deborahkristensen93444 жыл бұрын

    Thank you so much for turning off the background music!!!

  • @dominicbeard7469
    @dominicbeard74698 жыл бұрын

    This fantastic video gives me hope that I will someday speak this new language, which I love so much, well. Dankuwel!

  • @akuaafram4002

    @akuaafram4002

    3 жыл бұрын

    Yeah me too 💝

  • @zulkiflijamil4033
    @zulkiflijamil40334 жыл бұрын

    Now i am going to listen more to Dutch lessons. This is amazing. Thank you.

  • @DanTheCaptain
    @DanTheCaptain6 жыл бұрын

    These videos are incedibly helpful! They are so detailed. Even sounds that I think I am confortable with, I can learn something and improve on!

  • @user-nx5dz3kk5y
    @user-nx5dz3kk5y10 ай бұрын

    for me, Bart- you are simply the best, outstanding!! (je bent gewoon de beste, uitstekend)

  • @maylingyau
    @maylingyau7 жыл бұрын

    You are The best online docent so far!

  • @enkelejdat3329
    @enkelejdat3329 Жыл бұрын

    Very helpful for beginners in learning Dutch. Dank u wel.

  • @cathybrelsford4365
    @cathybrelsford43658 жыл бұрын

    Thank you for the great explanation! I always have difficulty to differentiate w en v. I will try your way. Thanks again!

  • @knittylicious
    @knittylicious Жыл бұрын

    A really clear explanation with helpful examples. Thank you!

  • @TheAkhilless
    @TheAkhilless7 жыл бұрын

    Thanks a lot for the difference between German and Dutch pronunciation, it really helped me a lot to understand how to pronounce words closer to how they should actually sound.

  • @catic6587
    @catic65874 жыл бұрын

    Finally someone who explains this and i can understand

  • @michaelak4847
    @michaelak48479 ай бұрын

    Thank you so much for all your lessons, they are so helpful, very engaging, well-explained and clear!

  • @vanessaheesen8154
    @vanessaheesen81545 ай бұрын

    OMG, Thank you!!! I've been trying to distinguish how to make the dutch v and w sounds for literally years! This video was super helpful!

  • @AkiraUema
    @AkiraUema8 жыл бұрын

    Ik ben braziliaans en heel lang heb ik twijfel over dat gehad. Dank je voor de verklaring! Dat was heel geweldig!

  • @mikael5743

    @mikael5743

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Akira Uema Brasileiros em todos os lugares!

  • @AkiraUema

    @AkiraUema

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Maicon Oliveira Somos onipresentes! kkkkk

  • @mikael5743

    @mikael5743

    8 жыл бұрын

    Akira Uema Uma dúvida: tu começou aprendendo Alemão igual eu? Agora que aprendi um pouco do alemão me acostumei com a pronúncia, aí fica difícil alternar para pronunciar o holandês direito

  • @AkiraUema

    @AkiraUema

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Maicon Oliveira Não, na verdade foi uma curiosidade mesmo. Meu irmão fala alemão e passou um tempo na Alemanha para estudar a língua. Aí ele aproveitou para viajar pela Europa e comentou que havia semelhanças entre holandês e alemão e que saber alemão e inglês ajudou um pouco para entender as placas em Amsterdam. Aí fiquei curioso e resolvi aprender holandês por conta própria mesmo através de livros. Mas entendo que no início deve dar um nó na cabeça mesmo.

  • @mikael5743

    @mikael5743

    8 жыл бұрын

    Akira Uema Legal cara, bons estudos e não desista nunca! ;)

  • @siw4ever
    @siw4ever5 жыл бұрын

    Loved this lesson, it keeps me engaged and very motivated to keep going! :)

  • @vladimirchorchordin5615
    @vladimirchorchordin56154 жыл бұрын

    Na 27 jaar in NL en werkende als een vertaler heb ik met veel plezier je video bekeken. En alweer werd het duidelijk voor mij hoe vreselijk moeilijk die V is. Dank je wel!

  • @papik1965
    @papik19654 жыл бұрын

    Hoi Bart:-). Have recently started your course online and really like it! My sister has lived in Holland fior many years, and when I showed her your course, she said, having looked at the your site...100% ..easy and clear way to learn Dutch language. Thank you. Keith.

  • @alexopweg
    @alexopweg Жыл бұрын

    The best explanation ever. First time when I arrived in Nederland I asked myself why the people cal my wife Fiorica in place of Viorica The Dutch people are the smarter in the world 🌎 .Fijne avond allemaal !!!

  • @veronicaoliveira6887
    @veronicaoliveira68873 жыл бұрын

    Amazing video! Once my father in law (who is dutch) gave me a tip to say the "w" like opening a big smile, worked good for me when starting to learn that sound and now I see Bart saying that the lips shouldn't touch, is exactly like that. Before I couldn't hear the difference betwen "v" and "w", but after training it gets better. Good luck to every beginer, you can do it!

  • @elenaivanova9340
    @elenaivanova93407 жыл бұрын

    Thank you very much for your lessons! I'm from Russia and I hope that I can learn Dutch language with your help.

  • @user-hg2oq3nb5k

    @user-hg2oq3nb5k

    4 жыл бұрын

    Удачи,тоже надеюсь выучить этот прекрасный язык

  • @popescuoanasilvia9507
    @popescuoanasilvia95073 жыл бұрын

    Great lesson! This helps me pay more attention to the way I utter words in Dutch

  • @diahpramesti2755
    @diahpramesti27554 жыл бұрын

    you explain it very well!! good teacher!

  • @mariols3006
    @mariols30063 жыл бұрын

    I like how he put examples with images I felt comfortable with that :D

  • @OZedasBifanas
    @OZedasBifanas8 жыл бұрын

    Thank you very much, very good explanations! I'm starting with dutch now, and my main problem is the pronounciation, because german helps me a lot in the reading part.

  • @pervezstutorial1948
    @pervezstutorial1948 Жыл бұрын

    You are a great man and teacher.love you❤️

  • @crystina99
    @crystina995 жыл бұрын

    This extra is extremely useful finally i understand the difference! you are awesome!

  • @allenfurr3978
    @allenfurr3978 Жыл бұрын

    thank you for this, I struggle with the V and W mixed up, hopeless for me, thank you also turning the music down, it helps to hear this better.

  • @ronenagranat7731
    @ronenagranat77313 жыл бұрын

    Great lesson, thank you!

  • @hagoshagosberhaneweldu1829
    @hagoshagosberhaneweldu18298 жыл бұрын

    dat is heei geweldig, hartelijk bedankt

  • @angkari7244
    @angkari72445 жыл бұрын

    excellent lesson. Thanks for posting

  • @annh.8290
    @annh.82907 жыл бұрын

    Thank you so much, but I must say, I found his one so much easier to follow because there was no music, which is very distracting. Do you have any more with out the music in them? Thank you.

  • @anneheibloem4126
    @anneheibloem41262 жыл бұрын

    Als ik naar jouw filmpje kijk, ga ik heel erg nadenken. Dan ga ik beseffen, dat het best wel moeilijk is om Nederlands te leren.

  • @bangbgood
    @bangbgood3 жыл бұрын

    It's also useful to know that in Flanders, Dutch Limburg and parts of Noord Brabant, the "W" is pronounced just as it is in English.

  • @ObamaShowtime

    @ObamaShowtime

    Жыл бұрын

    I do not pay attention to such conveniences.

  • @aichaelmetioui7095
    @aichaelmetioui70953 жыл бұрын

    My son of two years and a half knows you.. And when he hear or see you he says halo didi ba te paw (halo this is bart de pau). All the family loves your videos

  • @harounsomple6160
    @harounsomple61606 жыл бұрын

    Thank you for your lesson I am from Sudan really I want learn Dutch.

  • @jczanetti
    @jczanetti9 жыл бұрын

    hi ,thank you very much,your lessons are so helpfull and nicely explained ,as a lebanese , i am trying hardly to learn the dutch and it seems so funny and smooth to learn it from you ,you are professionel and you have accurate method to deliver your thoughts , i wish you the best luck ,and we are still waiting more lessons

  • @LearndutchOrg

    @LearndutchOrg

    9 жыл бұрын

    jczanetti thank you, veel succes met nederlands leren!

  • @naomitulips5003
    @naomitulips50037 жыл бұрын

    Hey..Bedankt !!. I watched the video as recommended. I now get it where,how and when to pronounce words with v,w . Ik ben blij. Groeten uit Duisland.

  • @albyricana3402
    @albyricana34029 жыл бұрын

    Thank u .....i think i can learn dutch slowly hehe...so that once ive met my friend in here then i cn communicate even a basic words...

  • @zacx6970
    @zacx69704 жыл бұрын

    Very informative,simple but precise lesson about the dutch pronunciation! Haha! This will help me understand my luisteren/spreken inburgering exam! As a person who is almost a native spanish speaking, i thought that Dutch pronounced “W” always as “V”. .

  • @BassicVIC
    @BassicVIC3 жыл бұрын

    Very valuable video! Dankjewel.

  • @natachaanfilofieva6448
    @natachaanfilofieva64487 жыл бұрын

    Zeer goed! Dank u wel! The best I ever seen!

  • @umasharma4575
    @umasharma45752 жыл бұрын

    Oh you are just AWESOME Bart! Bedankt 🙂

  • @j.becerra519
    @j.becerra5196 жыл бұрын

    Found it really really useful. It is still hard to pronunce v and w, but it helps.

  • @brilliantc8301
    @brilliantc83014 жыл бұрын

    Thanks a lot!!! It really helps me a lot🥰🥰🥰 finally I got the difference from W and V!!!

  • @iranardodasilvawakedpontes1362
    @iranardodasilvawakedpontes13626 жыл бұрын

    I loved the lesson!

  • @ginabautista2346
    @ginabautista23464 жыл бұрын

    Thank you for this lesson. I am thinking on going to Belgium for vacation and would like to get an idea of the Dutch language. The "v" "w" are hard to get straight, but your lesson was very helpful and explained it well.

  • @ObamaShowtime

    @ObamaShowtime

    Жыл бұрын

    There is differently spoken dutch. More mumbling, the sounds are softened. All differs. The written is the same, spoken is like a Scot and a Londoner. They simply have to adjust each other manner of speech or will have problems xD Once i saw two belgian guys having argument with another dude. They claimed he does not speak properly, and he made a few jokes about belgian and claimed that these people that really must have been born on the wrong side of river. There is something that amuses me woth their regionalisms.

  • @ehishapje4665
    @ehishapje46658 жыл бұрын

    zeer goed en fantastisch. Hartelijk bedankt

  • @LearndutchOrg

    @LearndutchOrg

    8 жыл бұрын

    ehis hapje dankje!

  • @Crfgllc1
    @Crfgllc13 жыл бұрын

    This really helps - thank you

  • @szetlynne
    @szetlynne2 жыл бұрын

    This is amazing! Could you do one explaining how to pronounce UI? This is one of the sounds I have the most troubles with.

  • @LouiseWTheTherapeuticartist
    @LouiseWTheTherapeuticartist9 жыл бұрын

    Your videos are great! Thank you.

  • @LouiseWTheTherapeuticartist

    @LouiseWTheTherapeuticartist

    9 жыл бұрын

    www.seen.is/group/6986 I have used some of them in my English and Dutch Exchange group here. Keep up the great work!

  • @vishalthegenius
    @vishalthegenius8 жыл бұрын

    Thank you so much! That was a very comprehensive explanation! I appreciate the effort!

  • @RM-vg3rf
    @RM-vg3rf9 жыл бұрын

    Cool! Dankjewel !!!

  • @victoriadefrese3172
    @victoriadefrese31728 жыл бұрын

    Thank you for this! Coming from German, this seemed a little more subtle to pick up.

  • @rofsjan
    @rofsjan4 жыл бұрын

    Bedankt. Het is voor een groot deel begrijpelijk. De voiceless F en de voiced W en V. Ook is het duidelijk dat V en F labiodental zijn. Maar wat W betreft, is het onduidelijk wat je precies moet doen. Er wordt vooral gezegd wat je niet moet doen: non labiodental, geen Engelse W. Een extra toelichting van W zou fijn zijn.

  • @audreyflores6715
    @audreyflores67153 жыл бұрын

    Thank you so much for this video! My boyfriend and his family say their Ws extremely similar to a V. To the point where I can't tell the difference between the two. So I just said water like "vater." Now that I am unlearning this bad habit I am told my Dutch is getting better and more natural.

  • @marifatukabiamansaray5976
    @marifatukabiamansaray59766 жыл бұрын

    Excellent lesson

  • @rider2731
    @rider27313 жыл бұрын

    You don't need the music anyway. It's distracting. Thank you for sharing.

  • @cristinacouplestherapy3819
    @cristinacouplestherapy3819 Жыл бұрын

    Benank Bart!!! Thank you so much!!!

  • @user-bv8il4is8l
    @user-bv8il4is8l5 жыл бұрын

    Just Exciting! Thanks a lot ...

  • @gracebennett7952
    @gracebennett79524 жыл бұрын

    These videos are amazing!!

  • @maryembelafki1348
    @maryembelafki13484 жыл бұрын

    Thank you so much❤

  • @mutinypiratesurvival320
    @mutinypiratesurvival3205 жыл бұрын

    Je bent een genie

  • @joalexsg9741
    @joalexsg97413 жыл бұрын

    Really fantastic, I don´t know if I'll be pronouncing them as due but at least I guess I understood it: The Dutch 'w' is a bilabial (voiced) phoneme, whereas the Dutch 'v' is a bit softer 'v' (labiodental) than a regular /v/.

  • @ivarenic4383
    @ivarenic43833 жыл бұрын

    Thank you, Bart!

  • @Thedeepviolet
    @Thedeepviolet3 жыл бұрын

    Estremamente utile anche per un madrelingua italiano ! :) Very helpful, thanks!

  • @galaxydave3807
    @galaxydave38073 жыл бұрын

    Thank u, now I can pronounce it!

  • @kylevdr
    @kylevdr2 жыл бұрын

    wow this was great. very helpful

  • @ronbo456
    @ronbo4569 жыл бұрын

    This was a great video. I know I'm not alone in being confused. However, when I was in Amsterdam recently "v" and "w" sounded awfully German when spoken quickly. I was a little surprised by your advice to keep the sounds accurate and not just give in to the shift, but on second thought I think it's better for students. So, thanks again. This is a great series. I only wish the Dutch didn't all speak such excellent (and unaccented) English!

  • @LearndutchOrg

    @LearndutchOrg

    9 жыл бұрын

    you listened well during your trip to amsterdam! because the amsterdam dialect is very extreme in making an f out of a v... like in german; don't copy it !

  • @yusupyusuk8090

    @yusupyusuk8090

    5 жыл бұрын

    Ron Stack hello mr

  • @catrmr8
    @catrmr89 жыл бұрын

    This is excellent! Gracias! ;)

  • @vuurtovenaar
    @vuurtovenaar9 жыл бұрын

    Great video! Thank you! How about a video on word order in Dutch. In my opinion it's the most difficult part of learning Dutch.

  • @LearndutchOrg

    @LearndutchOrg

    9 жыл бұрын

    vuurtovenaar i am working on a grammar course and then this will be discussed

  • @briewong1361
    @briewong13615 жыл бұрын

    I prefer the music off as in this video 😍. The music is Extremely distracting. It was much easier to pay attention without the music loop.

  • @brunosipavicius7867
    @brunosipavicius78676 жыл бұрын

    I've already heard Dutch music w close to f sound. W like f is Belgian accent? There're a video about the g and h sounds. For me as brazilian are the most difficult to know when is one or other. When I read i can, but hearing is almost the same. Geen and heen, for example

  • @kalawatieroop2616
    @kalawatieroop26163 жыл бұрын

    Dank u wel ,bedank .

  • @lozer18
    @lozer189 жыл бұрын

    Thank you! In fact I have some problems in the pronunciation of "W". For example, to me "Wat?" sounds like the German "Was?", with a kind of labiodental W.

  • @vonseven
    @vonseven2 жыл бұрын

    great information for begginers who doesnt have a clue!

  • @AhmadAmani0008
    @AhmadAmani00086 жыл бұрын

    mooi zo dank u wel.

  • @miltoncarlos5759
    @miltoncarlos57594 жыл бұрын

    excellent channel. could you, please, make a video that discusses "g" and "ch"? Thanks.

  • @maniellathomassin8631
    @maniellathomassin86315 жыл бұрын

    Bedankt Bart,ik had die vraag gesteld. In Suriname zeggen we F voor V. Tot een volgende keer!

  • @polishnorwegianandspanish9145
    @polishnorwegianandspanish9145 Жыл бұрын

    For Polish speakers any of those sounds are not problematic, except of vowel combinations ij - ej, ou - au, oe - u, ui - au, eu -u. We just have to learn them by heart

  • @cristina_garcia
    @cristina_garcia5 жыл бұрын

    Thank you for your recommendation to Spanish speakers. In medieval age, we distinguished the sounds v and b. But it started to fade away, and now we only pronounce the b sound.

  • @agustinamansur5665

    @agustinamansur5665

    5 жыл бұрын

    Soy argentina y pronuncio la "v" como debería pronunciarse :) yo sí hago la diferencia entte "v" y "b"

  • @cristina_garcia

    @cristina_garcia

    5 жыл бұрын

    @@agustinamansur5665 tenéis suerte de haber conservado los dos sonidos. Así es más fácil, y me gusta cómo suena. 😉

  • @Ich.bin.William
    @Ich.bin.William Жыл бұрын

    dank u wel

  • @positivenergylife
    @positivenergylife4 жыл бұрын

    Oh wow! I actually heard the difference between V and W just now! XD

  • @AlexandraMelnikovaTyumen
    @AlexandraMelnikovaTyumen8 жыл бұрын

    What a brain bang! I can't hear the difference between the letters 'w' and 'v'. It drives me mad. Nevertheless, your lesson is pefect, as usual. Thank you.

  • @MY-yt8ik

    @MY-yt8ik

    5 жыл бұрын

    In Dutch the V and F are pronounced as f by pretty much everywone and the w is just as in english

  • @Ell.06

    @Ell.06

    4 жыл бұрын

    @@MY-yt8ik that doesn't sound right

  • @r.v.b.4153

    @r.v.b.4153

    4 жыл бұрын

    @@MY-yt8ik No, the "V" doesn't sound like the "F" and I usually don't pronounce it as such. A great number of people have started pronouncing them nearly the same, but this is a "degeneration" of the pronunciation. It's a trend of the last few decades, as explained in the video by Bart.

  • @MY-yt8ik

    @MY-yt8ik

    4 жыл бұрын

    @@r.v.b.4153 And how do you make the V sound with your mouth? I hear most people pronouncing the V as a short V

  • @flutterwind7686

    @flutterwind7686

    3 жыл бұрын

    W is like V but you don't pronounce it as hard, and there is a little gap between your top teeth and your bottom lip.

  • @thuong-thaonguyen5349
    @thuong-thaonguyen53496 жыл бұрын

    Hallo Bart! Hoe is het met je? I really enjoy your explanation. Accordings to your pronunciation and your explanation 'w' is not labiodental, while Wikipedia says that both 'v' and 'w' are. This makes me confused. Could you please give me more info? I would suggest you to show us how the lips should be when we pronounce these sounds. A video with your mouth while pronouncing will help us a lot. Dank je!

  • @MartinMoxena
    @MartinMoxena9 жыл бұрын

    Hi. Is there a substantial difference in how the letter W is pronounced between the people of the Netherlands and Belgium?

  • @Jefff72
    @Jefff726 жыл бұрын

    I have noticed the guttural sound in both Dutch and Swiss German. But now I think I have learned that they are for different letters. Dutch makes the G gutteral where Swiss makes the ch & k. I hear that when Swiss say ich or danke.

  • @r.v.b.4153

    @r.v.b.4153

    4 жыл бұрын

    Depends on the Swiss German, which differs from place to place. In several Swiss German dialects I've heard, the "CH" sound is clearly guttural and identical to the guttural G in northern Dutch.

  • @Jefff72

    @Jefff72

    4 жыл бұрын

    I didn't mention that I'm American and I speak German as a second language. I live in Rheinland-Pfalz. Swiss is my favorite German dialect even when I can't understand them.

  • @user-bb1uz1sw7x
    @user-bb1uz1sw7x5 ай бұрын

    Very intresting language

  • @andreydavydov6417
    @andreydavydov6417 Жыл бұрын

    dank je

  • @hamedabasi7269
    @hamedabasi7269 Жыл бұрын

    Thanks

  • @aamirkhan6692
    @aamirkhan66924 жыл бұрын

    W - put lower lips with teeth (try to say v sound) V - put lower lips with teeth (try to say f sound) I am a complete beginner so may be wrong but this is my observation. (You may be the judge)

  • @momomostafa1
    @momomostafa18 жыл бұрын

    If someone is looking to skype with a native dutch speaker , I am willing to help ;) Found this video while learning the pronunciation to japanese so i know how hard it is to find a native speaker to practise with .

  • @fkinglolwow

    @fkinglolwow

    8 жыл бұрын

    +Kvothe what is your name so I can add you ? I am beginning with Dutch and the pronunciation is hard (I speak english and french)

  • @user-hg2oq3nb5k

    @user-hg2oq3nb5k

    4 жыл бұрын

    I guess I'm late here?I speak russian,czech and english fluently and learn french and just started dutch

  • @O_RafaelSMartins
    @O_RafaelSMartins6 ай бұрын

    any tip for portuguese speakers? I'm trying very hard but still can't pronounce w differently from v, for me they sound exactly the same