I'd say Sisko was sorta receptive to listening... until Eddington compared them to the Borg. Pulling that one on a survivor of Wolf 359 and losing his wife in that attack? Not smart Mikey. Not smart at all.

@singletona082

7 жыл бұрын

RenneDanjoule Prime directive affects pre-warp civilizations. bajor already had warp capability and the federation got involved long before the wormhole was discovered.

@dkupke

7 жыл бұрын

The Federation didn't really force anything in Bajor-the Bajoran's ASKED for their helped and even wanted to join the Federation. And Sisko never asked to be attached to the wormhole aliens, they forced that on him.

@KingOfElectricNinjas

7 жыл бұрын

There's rather an ongoing theme that a lot of Bajorans see the Federation as just the next empire with a smiling face, and are only on board with joining because their space time Jesus is a Federation officer. Of course, the show also demonstrates why a lot of worlds probably join the federation; they're a power bloc who can stand up to the Klingons, Dominion and Borg and willing to actively improve their member worlds. They're exactly what Bajor needs to recover from decades of Cardassian occupation and exploitation that's caused massive social and environmental damage. The Federation can genuinely offer what the Cardassians only pretended to, though of course with the Prime Directive there's a mixed record on that. The same show plays the Dominion as the Federation's dark counterpart; implied to be an okay place to live so long as you do exactly what the Founders want you to.

@ussbased-a7074

7 жыл бұрын

Andrew Singleton *borg flashbacks intensify*

@drbeard4505

7 жыл бұрын

Yeah you can see Crazy Sisko start to come out the second Eddington says Borg. Nice bit of acting, and I like how the Borg have a shadow over this whole series because of the damage they did to Sisko without having to show up once.

"You know in some ways youre even worse than the Borg" It was at that moment Sisko knew he was gonna commit some warcrimes in the next Eddington episode.

@ReaverLordTonus

Жыл бұрын

I wonder if Eddington knew Sisko lost his wife to the Borg, because either he didn't or he is by far the stupidest person in the galaxy to say that to him.

@2bituser569

Жыл бұрын

@@ReaverLordTonus I would imagine working with Sisko as Head of Security on DS9 he knew the basic details and about Jake his son. As chief of security he should be familiar with the bios of each sf and even Bajoran militia members too.

@kyrozudesoya1829

Жыл бұрын

He clearly knew how to plant the knife and how to twist it in. He knew that hit Sisko where it hurt but at the same time I can't blame him, the Federation was obsessed with avoiding further conflict that they wound up inviting it right onto their doorstep once the Dominion came into the Alpha Quadrant.

@joetioeb

Жыл бұрын

​@@2bituser569 I guess that bio didn't mention Sisko being a god. Eddington triggered Sisko into going "old testament" on him...

@cranbers

Жыл бұрын

him comparing his life's work to the borg was a big mistake lmao. he lost his wife to the borg so there you go, you saw how much he hated picard even though he didn't do any of it willingly.

The ironic thing here is that Starfleet sent Eddington to DS9 because they didn't completely trust Odo. And look who betrays his uniform.

@Eleolius

4 жыл бұрын

There are more important things in life than uniforms. How many fascists died so they didn't "dishonor their uniforms"... while buying time for atrocities innumerable. Honor and duty mean nothing if they are not in service of true virtue.

@kev3d

2 жыл бұрын

And what did the Federation betray when it ceded populated colonies to the hostile Cardassians who, by all available measures, were never interested in peace?

@SchlagerFreund

Жыл бұрын

Odo has been a collaborator before and was partially one later.

@FekLeyrTarg

Жыл бұрын

Odo even reminds Sisko of that irony in "For the Uniform".

@brianleap5830

Жыл бұрын

@@SchlagerFreund He was partially with the Dominion. During the occupation, he tried to serve justice and order. At the Bajoran conference on the subject, he was praised for his impartiality. I believe the line was something like: While he worked for the Cardassians, his only true master was justice.

Interestingly, Quark later also calls the Federation insidious (despite complementing them) in The Great Root Beer Analogy.

@MickHaggs

7 жыл бұрын

Garak*

@singletona082

7 жыл бұрын

Stefan Garcia Quark also understands humans far better than most races. We are generally happy loveable goofballs so long as we're comfortable. Start taking those comforts away. Start hurting us. You have a species that will make you wish you'd gone up to a pack of Klingons bare-assed looking for a fight instead.

@JasonCliftJones

6 жыл бұрын

That was actually in the first ep of this same season.

@leshpar

6 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/hoZ5s6mlZZeohZs.html

@printezstroman

5 жыл бұрын

Simile.

"You assimilate people and they don't even know it." BORG QUEEN: Write that down, write that down!

Seems to me like Eddington was almost getting through to Sisko, at least to a degree, until he stupidly pushed Sisko's berserk button by comparing him to the Borg.

@spartacus778

Жыл бұрын

Sisko the Hundred Man Slayer If someone gave him the Dragon Slayer he could probably use it

@CarterWills1

Жыл бұрын

Sisko agreed with the Maquis for fighting fir their rights snd how they needed to survive. However, Sisko realised that the Maquis and Eddington were fighting because they were xenophobic and irrational.

@oldtwinsna8347

Жыл бұрын

@@CarterWills1 They were irrational for wanting to preserve their homes? Cardassians were simply lying power hungry monsters who raped and killed their way through. But it was the Federation council who supported the Cardies by bending their knees to them, buying into their lies and trickery, all at the expense of the colonists. Colonists owed the Federation council members absolutely nothing.

@user-do2ev2hr7h

Жыл бұрын

To some extent, but Eddington misses the real reason the Federation can't abide the Maquis which is the fact that their actions are jeopardizing a tenuous peace treaty with a fellow galactic power.

@dhinton1

9 ай бұрын

​@@user-do2ev2hr7hexactly. the Federation didn't trust the Cardassians ANYMORE than the Federation trusted the Romulans. but the Federation understands that a PEACEFUL coexistence allows for exploration beyond known space .... and is better for EVERYONE, not just military heads. The Federation could have squashed the Cardassians BEFORE the days of TNG (it would have been a brutal assault), but it was no secret that the Federation made a peace treaty with the Cardassians while WINNING the war it was fighting with them.

Sisko: I want to know why? Eddington: Does that change anything? Sisko: I guess not. Sisko: I don't give a damn why!

@jj_b5400

3 жыл бұрын

That's because the Borg comparison angered him.

@aromaticflower

3 жыл бұрын

lol yup

@1993bahamut

3 жыл бұрын

He didn't really reveal his motivation, to what he opened his eyes to. He left it ambiguous to a degree.

Janeway "I don't respond well to threats" Archer "I don't respond well to threats" Sisko "I don't respond well to threats"

@Koulnis

4 жыл бұрын

Janeway: "Let's be diplomatic about this." Archer: "We'll fight if we have no other option." Sisko: "I am going to make entire worlds uninhabitable until you surrender."

@Mark-xh8md

4 жыл бұрын

@@Koulnis - Exactly why Sisko is a criminal who disgraces the uniform by wearing it. Mind you, so is Janeway, but that's another matter entirely.

@Koulnis

4 жыл бұрын

@@Mark-xh8md I won't argue that Sisko is a criminal. The way his character written was the definition of being between a rock and a hard place, and showing that humans can only be so graceful. His crimes were necessary for the greater good, most of the time. But his actions to bring the traitor Starfleet officer to justice showed us how close to evil he could be.

@Bacxaber

4 жыл бұрын

No, don't pussyfoot around it. Not "how close to evil" he could be. How _EVIL_ he could be. Sisko IS evil.

@Koulnis

4 жыл бұрын

@@Bacxaber We all are, at least a little bit. If you're noting this as an absolute, I'd love to hear your position as to why.

Eddington has some flipping *Balls* to compare the Federation the the Borg to the man whos *wife* was KILLED by the *BORG*

@Mark-xh8md

5 жыл бұрын

He wasn't entirely wrong, though

@nicksmith9371

3 жыл бұрын

If picard had destroyed the borg when they had the chance there wouldn`t have been anymore borg assimilations.

@matthewjones2095

3 жыл бұрын

@@nicksmith9371 and an admiral called him out on it

@Vextrove

3 жыл бұрын

@@nicksmith9371 when?

@Ares99999

3 жыл бұрын

@@Mark-xh8md Really? Picard, who was assimilated and ended up still having nightmares about it 30+ years after being freed, probably would have flipped his lid at Eddington's BS.

Scenes like this are why DS9 is my favorite series.

@JAGtheTrekkieGEMINI1701

6 жыл бұрын

Agreed

@jamesdavis1201

3 жыл бұрын

ABSOLUTELY!!!!! I will always love TNG. They made me a Trekker for life. However, as I grew up even I had to admit they were too idealistic. Reality demands you sometimes ask yourself the question, "Is it me?" DS9 did, and came out on top for having the guts to ask it every season.

@alhemmings8554

3 жыл бұрын

@@jamesdavis1201 Couldn't have said it better myself.

One of the great things about DS9 was not just that it took a cynical look at the Federation, but managed to show off its hypocrisy and corruption without completely eliminating the positive elements we saw in TNG and TOS. Same deal with the characters: it's possible to be mostly good and still possess some glaring character flaws.

@CaptainSeato

2 жыл бұрын

Sisko's glaring character flaw was that he never unleashed his pimp hand often enough.

@paul1979uk2000

Жыл бұрын

True but it also killed Star Trek, after all, remember that the entire idea of Star Trek was supposed to show a much more enlighten human race of the future, whereas it feels like DS9 shows the human race of today in a future setting, yes it's more relatable to us but it's not very realistic. Basically, the darker Star Trek went, the less popular it became and then it was just a matter of time before we got to where we are now with Star Trek, all of this started with the end of TNG and the tone got darker overtime with DSP and went on from there. But don't get me wrong, I love DS9, it's my second-best Star Trek behind TNG, but I could see the damage it was doing to Star Trek even back then, even the producers saw it, hence why they did many light-hearted episodes on DS9 near the end, but in the end, it was too little too late and Star Trek went into decline, at least with real Star Trek fans. So if you really want to put the blame on why Star Trek is the way it is today, look back to DS9, because it all slowly started from there.

@hiranmaydas4921

Жыл бұрын

The Federation is just Communism. Everything looks fine and dandy in Communism unless u try to peel off its layers

@SlideIX

Жыл бұрын

@@paul1979uk2000got to disagree on 1 thing you said, the federation characters are more enlightened then current humanity. The thing that made DS9 special is that the series tested the characters more throughly than any other Star Trek. Sometimes they up hold their ideals and sometimes they fail but they never stopped striving to be better or try to make things better. It’s why DS9 is my favourite because it’s about people trying to be better despite the adversity they face

@yellowcard8100

Жыл бұрын

@@paul1979uk2000 I don't know about that, there's SO many episodes of TNG where Admirals are massive A holes, like Nechayev. Or a Starfleet person does something bad. Sisko said it best "It's easy being a Saint in Paradise". Most of the humans we see in the series are usually spent a lot of time away from Earth. It still shows Earth as a utopia but also comments on being complacent is bad or judging the world from a narrow view is also bad.

He had Captain Sisko's understanding, and maybe even his sympathy... Then he hit the Borg button, and was no longer dealing with a calm Starfleet Captain, but with The Sisko.

@boscovilante4068

2 жыл бұрын

It actually looked to me that Sisko was amused by the histrionic comparison and saw then that Eddington was somewhat deranged. If Eddington had explained that the Federation was a senile bureaucracy ignorant of the realities of its frontier region, he'd have a better case.

@kreigguardsman3355

5 ай бұрын

If he had led with that I might be more receptive to his argument. But honestly this argument seemed more like him acting like a hero

It’s funny, he had sisko on the line when he ranted about the federation being shocked about the maquis breaking away, but lost him with the comparison to the borg.

@singletona082

Жыл бұрын

If Eddington was more persuasive, or at least aware of whom he was speaking to he might have had Sisko convinced. Maybe not to actively aid the Maquis, but to let Eddie go. See also how he treats Cassidy when she's found out, and then when she's released from her sentence. Time's done, he picks up right where they left off including the idea of a farm on Bajor. It isn't that he was unsympathetic. It's a case that he viewed the whole thing as a clusterfuck so the only thing he COULD do was his job. Honestly, I blame Picard for the whole mess by kicking the can down the road. One of those few instances where i genuinely believe TNG Picard fucked up.

@patrickwilkinson7351

Жыл бұрын

@@singletona082 In Picard's defense, he's still just a captain like Sisko is. The entire mess with the Maquis represents a colossal screw up by the Federation council, both by first allowing the Maquis to settle in disputed space to begin with, and then bungling up any kind of peace negations. The problem came down from the top, and it needed someone at the top to actually fix it. All people at the lower levels like Picard and Sisko can do is put band aids on the problem to keep it from exploding until someone with the ability to fix it actually did, and eventually, there came a point where no more band aids were going to work.

"Your even worse than the Borg" Dude! That's below the belt!

@Eleolius

4 жыл бұрын

In some ways. The Borg have a fixed nature. They cannot change what they are. They are imitative and a slave-based collective. Sisko is an individual who has a choice. Choosing to lay down your liberty in exchange for comfortable, luxurious shackles is a moral failure. Enforcing those unconsented to social contracts on the Maquis by force is a moral choice. Borg make no choices- they are just cyborg machines with an inescapable imperative. The Borg are an animal, a hive mind. They cannot be judged like human beings can. They cannot be considered moral agents. To be capable of good, and choosing evil, is far more reprehensible than being destructive by design and not by choice. Without choice, there is no evil. There is only nature.

@jasontodd8296

4 жыл бұрын

@@Eleolius That was true... until the Borg queen was introduced. She is in a way an individual, the pinnacle of the collective. And she does make choices. Assimilate species A now or later? Try to seduce Data to get access codes? Play chess with Janeway instead of sending an armada of cubes to assimilate Voyager and the 29th century mobile emitter and the modified nano-probes to use against 8472 right there and then.

@thomastakesatollforthedark2231

4 жыл бұрын

@@jasontodd8296 well tbf. Without her they'd most likely collapse.

@kvieth24

4 жыл бұрын

hes sort of got a point lol

@override367

4 жыл бұрын

@@Eleolius The Federation has more liberty than you can achieve in the real world unless you are a billionaire. The state bends over backwards to let people pursue their interests. Starfleet is almost a total meritocracy. Yall have this version of Star Trek in your head that doesn't actually fit

Significantly, the name “Maquis” is adapted from French resistance groups who fought against the Nazis.

@mauricioos2294

7 жыл бұрын

if they mean the nazis are the Dominion, the cardassians are like WW2 italians(lose for the klingons, then lose for the federation, then lose for themselves)

@Scyllax

6 жыл бұрын

NOOOOO! Really?

@gradanlambsauce9330

6 жыл бұрын

On the surface they had alot in common, but in reality the french rebels worked with the allies and actually matterd in the war.

@DIY_Miracle

5 жыл бұрын

To the freedom fighter, an occupier is still an occupier.

@CaptCovfefe515

5 жыл бұрын

I guess that kind of fits with Eddington’s comparisons of Sisko to Javert from Les Miserables.

1:21 Sisko’s wife was killed at Wolf 359 by the Borg.

@leo11lim

9 жыл бұрын

Not cool Eddington

@spasjt

9 жыл бұрын

Yeah and I think Eddington knew that too. That was a very low blow.

@girlgarde

8 жыл бұрын

+spasjt Agreed. Even if he's unhappy with Sisko, he shouldn't have called him and the Federation worse then the Borg. Eddington's lucky that he wasn't in the same room as Sisko or else he'd have been sucking his meals throw a straw for the rest of his life.......

@Kalenz1234

4 жыл бұрын

It was after that remark that Sisko stopped listening and shut Eddington out.

@Ryan_Winter

4 жыл бұрын

KZread also recommends me the following video: kzread.info/dash/bejne/laakt6qaacLWepM.html . I find the sentence," We never should have allowed those colonists to remain on the cardassian side of the demilitarized zone", quite telling. Starfleet thinking that they have the right to dictate where UFP citizens can go and stay, sounds like a military dictatorship to me. The criticism is well deserved, the UFP and therefore starfleet renounced any claim to that region of space in which the Marquis are active, and taking into account that Marquis members gave up their UFP citizenship, the UFP goes against their own legislation, when they interfere with political affairs in star systems beyond their borders. All starfleet does to stop the non-federation citizen Marquis might be encouraged by the Cardassians, but it goes against the Federation's constitution.

Who wants some root beer? It's bubbly and cloying... and happy. Just like the Federation.

@ageofgreen99

5 жыл бұрын

Elizabeth Smith drink enough of it, and you start to like it.

@MrDalek2150

5 жыл бұрын

@dan p It's Insidious.

@brochslanders1845

4 жыл бұрын

@@MrDalek2150 Just like the Federation

@KossolaxtheForesworn

4 жыл бұрын

its insidious

@thomastakesatollforthedark2231

4 жыл бұрын

@Dilandau Albatou Garak: and I want Kanar but we can't always get what we want

"Leave us alone and we'll leave you alone." Immediately threatens to attack aid convoys to Cardassia.

@Mark-xh8md

4 жыл бұрын

Because aiding their enemies is not "leaving them alone".

@chrissgchriss

4 жыл бұрын

After Eddington's rant, Sisco be like - I don't care about all that political star fleet Borg paradise assimilation stuff. This is between YOU and ME fool. Hangs up. Damn!!!

@Mark-xh8md

4 жыл бұрын

And this is yet another reason why Sisko is a disgrace to the uniform.

@jasontodd8296

4 жыл бұрын

@@Mark-xh8md I think your confusing Sisko for Eddington. One was a traitor and the other the right man in the right place to save the alpha quadrant. But don't get me wrong, I agree that Starfleet made this problem, with their 'peace at any cost' approach. That gave rise to the Marquis, who were in the end useful idiots to the Dominion. Say what you like, but no one was innocent in this political mess. The Federation for being too naive and soft, the Cardasians for being opportunistic xenophobes and the Marquis for not taking their victories and leaving at that, but poking more and more, until the xenophobes had enough. In the end, without Sisko, the Federation probably looses the war to the Dominion, so gj, now they're all slaves for the next 500 years. Without the Marquis, no one notices the difference really. The Founders just find another useful idiot.

@jasontodd8296

4 жыл бұрын

@@Mark-xh8md At that point the Cardasians had Klingons to worry about. The Cardasians after the fall of the Obsidian order was a different, weaker beast altogether. But hey, lets be hypocritical. When the Marquis don't like something, blame the Federation, even if at this point of the story many of their issues were home made. On the other hand, let's ignore the starving civilian population that never did anything wrong to anyone, but was under the boot of Central command all this time. If Starfleet had been sending weapons, I'm on your side. But sending industrial manufacturing capacity, sorry, that's OK in my book.

One of the best parts of DS9 is how it takes a more cynical look at the federation, Section 31 is another example of this.

@cpgrad07

8 жыл бұрын

+Benny W section 31.

@BenjaminWirtz

8 жыл бұрын

Justin Brown Yea that's what I meant.

@ogdocvato

8 жыл бұрын

+Benny W So very true! While during the Cold War we needed to see a perfect human society composed of morally infallible individuals, after the collapse of the USSR it was time to revert to, in the late 24th century, the same good, old-fashioned hew-mons that we know and love.

@christoffelmiddel6663

8 жыл бұрын

+Benny W You can change your comment, change it into Section 31.

@georgepierson5795

8 жыл бұрын

+Benny W Section 13 was in charge of planting pretty flowers all over the galaxy while people slept.

He ended up having a point about the Cardassians...

It's like... you're right, Eddie, really you are. Starfleet's Admiralty is woefully out of touch with distant colonists and it's reasonable to expect people might not want to live under Federation rules with none of their protections. But then you made a Borg comparison. To Sisko. That was a really poor rhetorical gambit, Eddie

@singletona082

Жыл бұрын

It's almost like eddington *wanted* sisko angry instead of Sisko joining him.

@2bituser569

Жыл бұрын

@@singletona082 I don’t think Eddington had any hopes of Sisko joining him but he definitely made an enemy there.

@2bituser569

Жыл бұрын

The ufp doesn’t mind sacrificing colonists in order to assimilate new races into the Federation in the longterm. Similarly, the Borg have no qualms sacrificing many drones in order to assimilate worlds.

@aptspire

Жыл бұрын

"Ya pushed the 'Borg' button. Ya shouldn't did that."

@ytafan4068

17 күн бұрын

I wonder if any of the Maquis ever heard Sisko's rant about Earth and paradise after Nechayev left. Sisko might have agreed that the colonists had every right to be angry with the Federation. Even understood them. And under other circumstances, the treaty negotiation would have taken longer. Unfortunately, what happened at Wolf 359 scared the Federation down to the bone. They needed to focus on getting ready for the next Borg attack. They couldn't afford to be distracted, so they adopted the so-called "peace at any cost" approach. Ben Maxwell stirred things up, but Picard managed to put an end to that in the correct way. He stopped Maxwell from straining things further while acknowledging that Maxwell was right. And he cautioned Macet that, "they'll be watching." We had a few more incidents until Lore showed up with his faction of Borg, and the whole Borg fear was kicked into high gear again. And now we have the so-called treaty with the Cardassians. More like meaningless words on paper. Even the Dominion admitted that it was a tactical error on the Federation's part. Then the attention shifted to the Dominion, then the Klingons, only for the Borg to appear again and more or less show the Federation that all their preparations were ineffective. Yes the cube was destroyed, but again at a high cost. And in the end, all the Maquis did was help weaken Cardassia enough for them to willingly join the Dominion, and then they struck back with a vengeance. They never did establish what happened to the colonies after the war was over. Did the Federation/Cardassian border return to the way it was before the treaty, or what?

I think Sisko might be more similar to Eddington than we realize at first glance. Back in season 2 he talked about Starfleet and its interactions with the Marquis and he described the problem in their not getting the Maquis perspective as being "Earth", "It's easy to be a saint in Paradise, but the Maquis do not live in Paradise".

@sebsignat8286

2 жыл бұрын

Makes you wonder why it takes decade's centuries for the border and de military used planets to get the comfort and security of the core federation world's

Brilliant dialogue, I could really start to see where Eddington was coming from. You could see someone like Sisko being like Eddington in a different walk of life, he's not just some cardboard cutout villain.

@oldtwinsna8347

Жыл бұрын

Ben had a privileged life. Sure, his wife died while on duty but that was a risk he chose to take upon himself by having her onboard. The colonists had no choice about their homes being taken away by a treaty, and then when concessions were put in place, the Cardies willfully violated every aspect of it, the Federation knew but snubbed their nose such as not to upset the Cardassian government about it. Instead, the Federation treated the colonists far worse than the Federation's own enemies.

I always felt for the Maquis. Imagine you're living in South Texas and all of the sudden the US enters into a treaty that cedes your land in exchange for Baja California. Would you really be ok with that?

@flasher6597

3 жыл бұрын

Technically we stole Texas.....

@colinmack8655

3 жыл бұрын

I think a better analogy exsist in Northern Ireland

@Revkor

3 жыл бұрын

@@flasher6597 no Texas fought for freedom then joined the US

@willg-r3269

3 жыл бұрын

@@Revkor A group of American immigrants living in a northeastern province of Mexico revolted because the Mexican government tried to abolish slavery, the US government sided with the slaveowning rebels, then used the resulting dispute as an excuse to start a war and annex half of Mexico's territory.

@Revkor

3 жыл бұрын

@@willg-r3269 but there were mexicans among them as well. so nope

Eddington's bluster that the Federation can be even worse than the Borg feels as sharp as a dagger. This clip reaffirms why no Star Trek TV series since has surpassed Deep Space 9.

@5Mariner

6 жыл бұрын

I agree

@DaSuDanesi

6 жыл бұрын

Except that Eddington is full of bullshit. Sisko is after him not for choosing to leave and side with the Maquis, but because he betrayed his Captain and his commission. The Federation (through Starfleet) is after the Maquis not for the "unthinkable" choice of leaving the Federation, but because they are committing crimes, and causing the Federation no end of trouble with the Cardassian Union.

@DIY_Miracle

5 жыл бұрын

@@DaSuDanesi That's the same kind of thinking that leads people to give in to the demands of terrorist. Besides, at this point in Season 4, the Cardassion Union was on verge of collapse. They were about to join the Dominion and suffering constant attacks by the Klingon Empire. It was the optimal time for revolution.

@Ares99999

5 жыл бұрын

+Seymour Skinner And then, they were obliterated.

@compmanio36

4 жыл бұрын

@@DaSuDanesi Right, Sisko didn't care if he resigned his commission and joined the Maquis. Now it's possible he would have ended up arrested as a terrorist later on by Sisko simply because of the proximity to DS9, but it wouldn't have been his priority. He didn't resign...he used his position as Starfleet security to carry out his plan, steal Starfleet equipment and betray all his fellow officers in the process. That's what made it personal.

This is why DS9 is the best Star Trek series, they deal with moral complexity in a way the other series just dont

The man is right. The UFP has a dark side and it's not Section 31.

@Amargosa2006

3 жыл бұрын

In some respects the Federationis lightweight, benevolent fascism

@johnnybestjojo7789

3 жыл бұрын

@@Amargosa2006 I wouldn’t go so far, but it’s impossible to say that they aren’t massively colonizers and imperialists

@Ares99999

3 жыл бұрын

@@johnnybestjojo7789 So what's the better alternative? The Klingon Empire? The Romulan Empire? The Cardassians? The Breen? The Gorn? Let's face it, the UFP's flaws are mild compared to most if not all of the other powers around.

@johnnybestjojo7789

3 жыл бұрын

@@Ares99999 … ok?? And??? Bud something can be largely the best currently alternative while still being kinda shit. You can criticize the harmful aspects of something while also criticizing its alternatives, actually. Jesus I hope you don’t apply that argument to real life politics, nothing would ever get better if everyone thought that way.

@theevilascotcompany9255

2 жыл бұрын

It's interesting that in Star Trek, after all the mythology and world-building has been done over the years, we still don't know what it's really like to be a Federation civilian living on a planet somewhere never having served in Starfleet.

Sisko couldn't dispute what eddington said cause he knew on some level deep down that eddington was right about the federation being insidious

@tf2whackyengineer

8 жыл бұрын

+Vincent Thompson Just like root beer.

@NealX

8 жыл бұрын

+Vincent Thompson He didn't dispute Eddington because he was devoting all his energy to controlling the impulse to send his fist soaring through time and space to punch out Eddington's smug little face...

@girlgarde

8 жыл бұрын

+Vincent Thompson No, it's because he didn't care what Eddington's opinions were as Sisko regarded Eddington as scum at that point for betraying his oath to Starfleet and the Federation, for using his position to commit treason and for stealing aid meant to help innocent civilians just because they were Cardassians. When it comes to people who Sisko thinks are scum, he doesn't feel the need to justify himself or engage in philosophical debates with them, he lets his actions speak for him.

@The_Gallowglass

8 жыл бұрын

+tf2whackyengineer Insidious root beer is the best kind

@tf2whackyengineer

8 жыл бұрын

Ó Slatraigh It's so bubbly, and cloy, and happy.

"No one leaves paradise."

The Borg: We are the Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. The Galaxy: FIRE FIRE FIRE!!!! The Federation: We are the Federation. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. The Galaxy: ok!

The Federation is like Root Beer. It's vile, sweet and bubbly. If you drink enough of it you get use to it and start to like it.

Textbook case of "Strawman has a Point".

Why I loved DS9. TNG always showed the Federation to be this glorious paradise. But DS9 showed it to have its faults just like every other form of government.

@d36williams

4 жыл бұрын

this is all we get now. A star trek where poverty and racism is rampant, and no one makes star trek shows full of optimism for the future. It's so fresh, I love it, a broken down future. Never seen an infinite number of other scifi properties touch on that

@compmanio36

3 жыл бұрын

@@d36williams Nah, DS9 still kept the ideal of the Federation intact, but recognized this was the border of what one could consider the "Federation". Where "paradise" hasn't quite caught up yet. Unlike NuTrek, where the Federation itself seems to have regressed into a psuedo-21st century dystopia just like our own, because writers these days find it impossible to separate their writing from their daily rhetoric regarding politics and how much they hate everything.

@d36williams

3 жыл бұрын

@@compmanio36 that's fair, really I'm bitching about contemporary trek, and I'm over complaining about it

@Yabuturtle

3 жыл бұрын

In TNG, there was corruption even then, with starfleet admirals. Such as Admiral Pressman going against a treaty that kept them and the Romulans in peace for decades, even though there were aspects of the treaty that were stupid, it still worked. Federation was still better than most places overall anyway, despite it's faults.

@singletona082

Жыл бұрын

Faults, but at its core a society that tries t obe good. Instead of what is fashionable now in showing the federation as bumbling, cluelessly inept, or wholly corrupt. OK there is Lower Decks that is genuinely kinda cool in taking the piss out of trek tropes but on the whole having a positive view of things but I seem to be one of the oddballs because it seems trendy to shit all over it. Then again Strange New Worlds honestly feels... refreshingly oldschool in how it handles things. I recommend giving it a few episodes.

Calling Sisko worse than Borg, that was definitely 10 light-years out of the line.

@Mark-xh8md

5 жыл бұрын

Not really. The Borg are uncaring, acting more like a hive of wasps, or an ant colony. They do what they do, because that IS what they do, and they can't do anything else. It makes no more sense to blame the Borg for what they do, than to blame an ant, or a wasp. One takes precautions against them, and fights them, but one cannot blame them. The Federation, however, is a different matter. And Eddington was spot on.

@jasontodd8296

4 жыл бұрын

@@Mark-xh8md With the Federation? Perhaps. With Sisko, hell no. Sisko himself in a prior episode, when the Marquis had their introduction, ranted to Kira, how Earth is the issue. That it's easy to be a saint in paradise, but the people in the DMZ are not in paradise. The Federation, to me, is just stupid. Peace at any cost is not real peace. The Federation merely exchanged one problem with the Cardasians for another. Yes, they bought them off with giving territory, but hey, there were already people there. Starfleet should have gone against their stupid diplomacy can solve anything principal and warred it out with the Cardasians. They had the tech and military advantage. Even the Kingons only respected Starfleet after a few wars. Starfleet doesn't get it that sometimes you have to use a sword rather than an olive branch. Yes, the war would have been painfull, but beating the Cardasians there and then would resolve more problems long term, freed the Bajorans years in advance and perhaps even prevented the Dominion war. The Federation confused quiet with peace. They kept putting a bandage on a bandage on a bandage on a festering wound instead of changing the original bandage. So I agree with you on the Federation part, but not Sisko. He was between a rock and a hard place. Besides, Michael had to learn the hard way: You don't piss off the Sisko.

@Mark-xh8md

4 жыл бұрын

@@jasontodd8296 - Sisko went on to commit atrocities even the Nazis or that infamous Japanese unit whose designation I can't remember, would have shuddered at.

@jasontodd8296

4 жыл бұрын

@@Mark-xh8md Name them. For Sisko I mean. Used a chemical on a planet harbouring terrorists? The same terorists that murdered starfleet officers, stole from the Federation... after wanting nothing to do with it, and used bio-weapons themselves? Perhaps, but he gave them ample warning and as far as we know, no one died, they resettled. It was the Cardasians and Dominion that in the end did the atrocities. With Garak's help get a Romulan senator killed? Again, perhaps but the Romulan's were playing Switzerland and ignored when the Dominion violated their space. And it was pointed at several times the Romulans would have entered the was no matter what, he just accelerated that... or should I say Garak did as Sisko didn't want to kill anyone. Got a colony erased from time when he wanted to get back to DS9 and not crash in the past? They never existed, not the same thing. Stopped a hostile takeover from Starfleet personnel in Paradise lost? Gave Bashir free hands in dealing with Section 31, who were in a way the real genocidal Starfleet officers? Perfectly justifiable. Sloan commited suicide, no one killed him. If you want to go down this hole, every Starfleet Captain in the shows can be put on trial: Picard for letting the Borg survive and destroy countless other civilisations, when he had the chance to end them. Janeway, same deal. Arcturus is the prime example there. "Your diplomacy destroyed my world!" Where do you draw the line then? Name one so called atrocity Sisko did. During the war everyone did them. The Federation, Klingons, Cardasians, Breen... everyone. Dukat.... too many to name. Weyoun same. The Founders... where to begin. Gowron... same. Romulan senate... same. Section 31... same. Even Admiral Ross.

@jasontodd8296

4 жыл бұрын

@@Mark-xh8md As for your Borg comparison: Would be true, for the original version. But with Voyager and First contact, we got the Queen. And she is an individual. No matter if she's the personification of the Hive, she acts like an individual and has her own agenda, whatever that may be beyond achieving perfection. Hell, she sexually tried to seduce Data to get her own way. Explain that then.

The idealist vs the military commander who "has his orders". An interesting archetypal showdown.

Personally, I love this moment from "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine." This scene of an all-out confrontation between Sisko and Eddington was almost unforgettable.

my favorite scene, I love Eddington; and the federation resistance movement.

It's a fair thing to do, to criticize your government. The test of a system is in how it responds to resistance. In corrupt systems, the flaws are suppressed, and the resistance is treated like the disease rather than the symptom that it is. This isn't just true of external organizations, but of everything. Still, low blow with the Borg comparison.

THIS is how good Star Trek writing used to be... How far they've fallen.

His biggest mistake was contacting Sisko after betraying the Federation.

The moral issue here is invalid. Eddington crossed Benjamin Sisko. You don't cross Benjamin Sisko.

@singletona082

7 жыл бұрын

Walter Kovacs Note Q showed up precisely once, then got punched in the face. Q never showed up again.

@dkupke

7 жыл бұрын

Sisko spent the first few seasons being very sympathetic to the Maquis. He tries to be reasonable and negotiate with them. He tries to argue in their favor with his superiors in starfleet. And how do the Maquis repay those efforts? By this point Sisko had had enough.

@austinboylan5476

6 жыл бұрын

Andrew Singleton That's not necessarily a good thing. Q did quite a bit of good for the Enterprise and Voyager crews.

@meris8486

6 жыл бұрын

@Daniel Ryan Well said. I found it interesting to go back and watch the two parter where the Maquis is introduced at the end Ben chooses to let Calvin Hudson escape. That's not something the Sisko of season 6-7 would do, he'd blast that fucker to pieces.

@lordlossize

6 жыл бұрын

rule 1. dont betray sisko rule 2. dont anger sisko rule 3. dont insult the federation to sisko rule 4. dont mention the borg to sisko rule 5. dont side with the maquis around sisko

DS9 had the unique ability to show an argument where everyone is right and then eventually get in the gutter where both sides knuckle it out to see who wants to win the most. THAT is life!

You know, I'm surprised that Sisko didn't snap at Eddington comparing him to the Borg, After all the Borg did kill his wife and Even though he's made peace with Picard I'm sure he didn't make peace with the Borg, if I were in his place I would've punched the monitor the moment he made that comparison.

@The_Gallowglass

8 жыл бұрын

+Dom Oranzi Not quite the Borg, no, but Eddington wasn't entirely inaccurate.

@warriorking0723

8 жыл бұрын

+Ó Slatraigh the Borg kill those that don't want to be a part of them and the most people actually chose to be a part of the federation.

@Doghero780

8 жыл бұрын

+Gabriel Morris yeah but that's what makes then insidious they lure you in and then rip your entire culture away from you

@RopeDrink

6 жыл бұрын

The thing is, Sisko is at his most venomous when he gets quiet. He even cracked a wry smile before going into his low "Imma kill you" mode. He's shouted from the top of his lungs countless times - it's when he lowers his volume that you need to be extra careful, like when he chewed Quark a new asshole about them selling weapons. Picard: Diplomacy/Reason > Pull Rank > Shout Mode Sisko: Pull Rank > Shout > Quiet Rage Mode

@kev3d

5 жыл бұрын

Sure, Sisko lost his wife to the Borg, but how many current and former federation citizens lost their lives to the Cardassians? Make a deal with the devil, expect to get burned.

"There exists no friendships between nations. Only interests."

@thomastakesatollforthedark2231

4 жыл бұрын

@TheVoiceOfTruth has worked hundreds of times in the past. Literally hundreds.

@romancandle416

4 жыл бұрын

@@thomastakesatollforthedark2231 And it has failed hundreds of times as well. Sometimes it works, and different cultures contribute to a stronger whole. But sometimes it fails, and Balkanization occurs.

@thomastakesatollforthedark2231

4 жыл бұрын

@@romancandle416 So it pretty much evens out

@thomastakesatollforthedark2231

4 жыл бұрын

@SLOWPOKE RODRIGUEZ name once that it failed?

@thomastakesatollforthedark2231

4 жыл бұрын

@Adrian Avraham America. Australia. New-Zealand. The Netherlands, the United Kingdom (it is failing but still), Switzerland, and Greece

God, I love DS9

The fact that I didn't realize that this was the same guy who played Colwyn from Krull as a kid blows my mind.

The Therapist likely supplied in prison: And do you know now what the mistake of your plan was Mr. Eddington? Eddington: Triggering Sisko's BADASS MODE? The Therapist likely supplied in prison: Triggering Sisko's BADASS MODE

I wonder how section 31 factored into the whole Maquis situation.

@ericmiller4052

9 жыл бұрын

NeilSonOfNorbert I watched every episode and wondered the same as you if they care about the federation as much as they say then why did they not intervene in some way. 31 seemed far more concerned about information leaks and deception than actually stopping threats to the federation.

@Neverhoodian

9 жыл бұрын

**Insert NSA joke here**

@attiepollard7847

6 жыл бұрын

NeilSonOfNorbert they did not give a shit about the maquis movement because if they did the federation would have ordered them to do something about them. What threat are the maquis?

@oldtwinsna8347

6 жыл бұрын

I doubt Section 31 did anything other than enjoy some popcorn while watching news clips about them. They were no threat to the Federation in the larger sense. Section 31 wasn't a policing agency that went around putting out fires of small consequences. They were in for very calculated, large-scale, movements affecting the entire Federation.

@5Mariner

6 жыл бұрын

To a certain extent.

Sisko was agreeing and then heard the Borg comparison and was like “Prepare to meet the mighty glorified pimp hand of The Sisko”. “The Sisko is now done with your useless form”😂

@TheEvilCheesecake

Жыл бұрын

You seem like more of a Transformers person than a Star Trek person.

@Brian6587

Жыл бұрын

@@TheEvilCheesecake I’m not sure how you got that comparison but definitely not. If you took one look at how many Star Trek videos I got in my library you would see my point. Also judging by your playlist you seem to be more a Tron and like your own comment person

@TheEvilCheesecake

Жыл бұрын

why don't you try again champ, and this time maybe use your "glorified pimp hand".

@Brian6587

Жыл бұрын

@@TheEvilCheesecake aww, how cute. Did mommy and daddy just give you an account? Don’t start what you can’t stop. Go back to the cave, troll.

@TheEvilCheesecake

Жыл бұрын

Looks like I was dead on with my initial assessment.

If they have the right to complain about living in the Federation they should try a few months of 2020.

In some ways this is one of the most profound scenes in all of Trek - because deep down we all know what Eddington is saying is, in a sense, true.

@singletona082

Жыл бұрын

In a sense yes, and yet it very much misses the mark. Is Star Fleet perfect? Hell No. Does Eddie make a few valid points? Maybe. Is the Federation a polite version of the Borg? PFFT No.

@grom4818

Жыл бұрын

@@singletona082 star fleet didn't hit the mark in the colonies = equal or greater reaction.

@ZainAhmad-jl4vt

6 ай бұрын

@@singletona082 You do get that it was meanth rethorically. I would like to make Eddington's point again here. When starfleet left the federation it was a tragedy for the civilians living there, and they were adviced to leave but it was their home that they built and they have every right to stay there. The federation was the one that left the territory, they on their own made the people of those territories independent, and just like Eddington says it, they shouldn't be any concern of the federation. The Maquis are trying to survive living under the Cardassian authority and if they decide to denounce Cardassian authority that still shouldn't be a concern of starfleet and the federation it's the Cardassian's own problem. We see in these episodes that federation officers would give into their ego and betray what the federation once stood for.

I still can't believe the Maquis were created for Voyager, when they're written so much better and are arguably a bigger part of DS9.

@voiceofstl2

Жыл бұрын

voyager,,,the maquis on a federation ship story lines dissapered after about 5 episodes

So Mister Eddington, what about the Klingon Empire? If the Federation's true goal behind the Khitomer Accords was to assimilate the Klingons into them then why is Klingon culture and traditions still intact? They even do what they can to stay out of internal affairs within the Empire despite it being in their best interests to intervene and only do so when it is of upmost necessity, like preventing the Romulans from tipping a civil war to their advantage. There have been decades since the Khitomer Accords along with relatively pro-Federation Chancellors like K'mpec, plenty of time to conform the Klingons to Federation ideals. Yet the Klingons remain as their own people with their own laws and sovereignty.

@uni4rm

3 жыл бұрын

Picard has openly threatened use his influence to usurp the sitting leader of the Klingon Empire because he wanted to borrow a ship for a mission. And the Klingons bent over in about 2 seconds. The Klingon Empire very much exists at the will of the Federation.

@nick0875

3 жыл бұрын

@@uni4rm Oh yeah because Picard totally is the head of the Federation and is completely in control of their foreign polices. Even though he is the arbiter of succession for Gowron, his influence in both the Empire and Starfleet is not limitless. And the Federation was completely fine sitting by during the civil war between him and the House of Duras before they were shown evidence that the Romulans were helping the House of Duras in order to undermine the Khitomer Accords.

@Lightscribe225

3 жыл бұрын

@@nick0875 Just pitching in saying that's probably bad writing. At times it feels rather unsettling that we see little of a civilian government in the Federation that doesn't have connections to Starfleet. Again, might be the fault of the writers, but it feels like the Federation is a military junta where Starfleet dicates the actions of society, and everything revolves around supporting Starfleet. Maybe the Klingons were receptive to Picard because Picard is Starfleet, and technically has the weight of Starfleet behind him.

@IrishCarney

Жыл бұрын

Because Klingon culture is too strongly resistant to the Federation's siren song. Because the aftermath of the destruction of Praxis meant the already poor, over-militarized Klingons would be even poorer, with that adversity hardening their backward, honor and violence-bound ways.

@TheHazelnoot

Жыл бұрын

​@@Lightscribe225 I think the issue really comes from the fact that almost all of Star Trek is explicitly *told* from the Starfleet perspective. If you had a show that took place entirely on a, say... military carrier, in our world, which... the Enterprise, for example, in all its iterations, *is* a warship, no matter what Starfleet calls it. From that perspective, of course the military will appear dominant. It's what people in the military will talk about, it's what they do. Similarly, Starfleet will appear dominant in Federation politics, because Starfleet is in essence, all of the Federation's foreign policy. Of course in shows about travelling to "strange new worlds", they're going to be dominant. And in DS9, it's still Starfleet, all the way out there, because that's their job. However, the behaviour of a military man, or a diplomat, is going to be vastly different from the average day-to-day of a citizen. But Star Trek has never actually gotten out of the ships and stations on a federation world for any amount of time that matters. Compare the amount of time spent on Starfleet ships to the amount of time spent on Earth, or a border colony. Because that's just not Starfleet's job, for the most part. And the reason we haven't seen a show not focused on Starfleet, is probably because the writers aren't confident enough that they'll be able to make it interesting. And as far as I'm concerned? Yeah. That's a failure on the writers. You can't just keep saying "The Federation is great! The Federation is wonderful! Starfleet is wonderful!" Show me their worlds, show me their cities, show me what this civilization 300+ years more advanced than us has created with the lessons they've learnt. Make a show that focuses on travelling across the *Federation,* visiting its member worlds, maybe solving a few problems here and there. I'm 100% behind the Federation as this wonderful utopia, I really am, but you have to show it to me for me to believe you.

The Federation eventually evolves into Kyubey from Madoka

Man it almost feels like Eddington almost had Sisko convinced up until he brought up the Borg

I always feel sad that Ken Marshall’s on-screen career never properly took off. Krull is one of my favourite films. I heard he became active in the theatre scene, however, so I hope that more than made up for it.

Sisko is angry because Eddington had good reason to violate Starfleet protocol and his view about it is accurate. People aren't so angry at evil.

@Evan_Almighty2049

5 жыл бұрын

If anyone had a right to betray the Federation, it was Sisko. Not Eddington. And he didn’t. He chose duty over family. Sisko could’ve gone on a revenge tour because of Jennifer and Picard (Locutus) but he chose to remain in and honor the uniform. The sacrifices. A true hero. Defection is easy. Duty is hard.

@Bacxaber

4 жыл бұрын

Duty to bad people isn't commendable. At all, Evan.

@Bacxaber

4 жыл бұрын

Cheers mate.

@Chaotic_Jackal

4 жыл бұрын

@@Bacxaber The Federation aren't bad people by any realistic definition of the word.

@Bacxaber

4 жыл бұрын

LMAO WHAT?? YES THEY ARE YOU FUCKING IDIOT XD

i love how correctly eddington described the federation

@tombo1984

8 жыл бұрын

+capt rodgers Reminds me of the EU.

@Ares99999

8 жыл бұрын

+capt rodgers Problem is, terrorist actions make him little more than a hypocrite.

@JimZDP

8 жыл бұрын

+capt rodgers Describes the United States these days.

@heuh3

8 жыл бұрын

How is it correct to describe an interstellar democratic alliance to the fucking borg? Last I checked membership to the federation is voluntary and the Borg are a genocidal conquerer of entire civilisations, cut down on the bullshit hyperbole please. Eddington was high on some maquis cocaine in this scene, trying to get at sisko just because siskos wife was killed by the borg.

@Ares99999

8 жыл бұрын

+heuh3 Exactly. But then again, Eddington has proven himself to be rather... selective... in his views of the world. He has painted the Maquis - and himself - as pure-hearted freedom fighters, and will ignore anything that contradicts that mental image. His comparison between the Borg and the Federation is superficial at best, and doesn't hold any water if you look at what the Collective and the UFP as nations. But, again, Eddington NEEDS the Federation to be the villain of his personal, heroic fantasy. And yes, Eddington should have known better than to use the Borg as an example to a man who lost his wife because of those very Borg. Right there, he ensured that the Maquis would have a truly dedicated enemy.

Eddington's Borg crack guaranteed Sisko going all Hawk on his ass.

Ironically, Starfleet brought in this guy because they did not trust Odo.

@antimatr8109

2 жыл бұрын

Something that he was keen on telling Sisko to remind Starfleet of that in the next ep involving Eddington...

Telling Picard or Sisko that The Federation are basically the Borg is invitation for an ass-whooping...be it physical or verbal.

@Mark-xh8md

5 жыл бұрын

He's not entirely wrong, though.

@Ragitsu

4 жыл бұрын

@@Mark-xh8md He is entirely wrong. Eddington is a mouthpiece for right-wing writers.

@Mark-xh8md

4 жыл бұрын

@@Ragitsu - Lol, sure 😂

@Ragitsu

4 жыл бұрын

@@Mark-xh8md Absolutely, good sir.

@Mark-xh8md

4 жыл бұрын

@@Ragitsu - lol, sure 😂

The thing is that he's not exactly wrong.

In some ways, Eddington makes great points about the Federation but then again he's willing to commit genocide against the Cardassians as well as kill other members of the Maquis for "Disloyalty". I understand why he did what he did, but clearly his no better than both the Cardassians & the Federation because can you really prove a point with much death with it?

Federation helps cardies but offers no aid to its own citizens what did they honestly think was going to happen. To the maquis this would have been like openly aiding the cardassians during the attempt made by the klingons to conquer cardassia.(openly meaning not calling garrick into the ward room to measure sisko during a conversation stating the klingon plans for war) I am in no way surprised by the events that took place. Long live the maquis until the dominion crushes them for the cardies.

@kd84afc

9 жыл бұрын

Eric Miller Well they did offer to resettle them, But they chose to remain even thought they knew the risk...

@ericmiller4052

9 жыл бұрын

KD84Afc™ true but if you had to give up all you had because someone else made a deal with your home and then gave the your enemy help but not you i'd be upset but you have a valid point.

@Revkor

8 жыл бұрын

+KD84Afc™ the thing is that deal should have never been made. and the Cardassia gov. at this point is alot like Iran's not trust worthy

@ericmiller4052

8 жыл бұрын

Revkor The top brass in starfleet cry no war but make decisions and cut deals they know will start problems. I don't understand starfleet sometimes. So far as i know the cardassians have never been trustworthy but they do seem scared to cross the federation enough to go to war with anything but an ally like the dominion so atleast we know when the fed.-dom war is over the cardassians won't be an issue.

@Revkor

8 жыл бұрын

the top brass spent too much time on earth and not on the frontier..This was even mention multiple times in TNG. In essence the Federation is too centeralized to truly be effective

This is why the Klingons in Discovery went apeshit over the Federation's mission of peace.

Comparison to the Borg is massively hyperbolic. Vulcans, Telarites, Andorians, Humans....they all retain their own cultural identities. In the borg, your identity & purpose *is* BORG. Nothing else.

@erojerisiz1571

5 жыл бұрын

Marcus Hicks that's the thing here, Eddington wanted it to be personal

@girlgarde

5 жыл бұрын

The Federation's enemies don't see it that way. They see all the non-Human races in the Federation as neutered versions of their old selves under Humanity's influence but they fail to realize that Humanity's been influenced by the Federation's other races like the Vulcans.

@erojerisiz1571

5 жыл бұрын

All races: we have our own cultures Borg: wE ARe tHe bOrG

@felixfarside1210

4 жыл бұрын

That's the thing. In DS9, the Bajorans wouldn't be allowed to join the Federation if they returned to their caste system. The Federation does want everyone to join, but they put strict rules in place and if your culture doesn't meet the guidelines, then the Federation will be nice and helpful until you come around.

@dirtbag_8132

3 жыл бұрын

@@felixfarside1210 The Bajorans didn't even want to return to the caste system. So, I don't see how that is relevant to your argument. The Bajorans didn't want to return to the caste system because, it would whitewash the history and pretend the occupation didn't happen.

Eddington must’ve thought he was in the Discovery timeline

@theamazingquetzal3933

3 жыл бұрын

@Mark Morris when I wrote this I believe I was referring to how the Federation in Discovery acts more like the Borg in how they were assimilating the Klingon culture in such an aggressive manner. I do not know if that changes later on because I do not watch Discovery.

Eddington is complaining that the Federation wants the Cardassians to join someday. Well at least that concept was better than what The Maquis and Gowron influenced the Maquis to do. Thanks to their attacks Cardassia willingly joined the Dominion and let Gul Dukat become their sole leader! So much for Gowron's War with Cardassia, the Dominion kicked out the Cardassians so fast it wasn't even funny. So much for The Maquis wanting to call themselves their own nation, the Jem'Hadar wiped nearly all of them out, the last of them were aboard U.S.S. Voyager or asking for an evac in the form of a terrorist threat.

Sisko lost this debate.

Recognizing Eddington was right all along was one of the biggest growths of Sisko's character... Took a few more episodes though.

Eddington made a gigantic mistake comparing him to the borg considering his wife was killed by them.

Ahhh. This show. I miss these moments.

Eddington was not right. He's failing to see the larger picture here. The Federation brokered a peace with the Cardassians. Peace treaties are always things of compromise. Perfect solutions don't exist. A neutral zone was established, and the planets that were already settled had to be evacuated. Except the people living there didn't want to leave. And they still fought with the Cardassians there, in spite of the treaty. What was the Federation to do? Should they risk another war for the sake of a few rebel worlds? "Leave us alone", Eddington said. It's not that simple. The Maquis highjacked a Federation ship. They stole replicators destined for the Cardassians. Should the Federation just let the Maquis steal from them? And on a more personal note, Eddington did betray his oath and his commanding officer. He's broken the law and should be tried for it.

@jsnrvst

7 жыл бұрын

In fact, the treaty ceded the territory to the Cardassians, who had legal authority to do what they want with it. Citizens of the Federation were to be relocated. They refused. It was their home. The Federation, however, would not jeopardize a hard-fought peace treaty for the sake of a few pig-headed colonists. Nor would the Cardassians tolerate them. It was a complex situation that didn't have a perfect solution, but the BEST solution would have been to relocate. War sucks, especially a lopsided war that you can't possibly hope to win.

@johnh2118

7 жыл бұрын

A wonderfully complex story that reflects so many intense and timeless emotions. Bureaucrats behind desks continually underestimate the ferocity of land owners and colonists until it's too late. If the people aren't listened to, then mayhem is the unfortunate result. It doesn't matter whether real or fictional, past or present. I have generally liberal ideals, but that doesn't stop me from recognizing current events in the U.S. and U.K. DS9 stories stand the test of time for this very reason. I love the show!

@dkupke

7 жыл бұрын

It also didn't allow for the Maquis to attack the Cardassians and the Federation-which they did.

@dkupke

7 жыл бұрын

Eddington and the Maquis have a legit grievance. But the problem is Eddington sees it in black and and white. The Maquis thrived the most in an area of gray, and once things moved from one to the other, they were dead.

@TheVsagent

6 жыл бұрын

Compromising implies a lack of character and that's why none ever said Winston Churchill lacked character. Utilitarianism is a petty excuse for screwing people over.

Mexit! Mexit! Mexit!

Sisko was receptive to everything he said (Hell , I myself am anti-Federation) until he compared them to the freaking Borg .

Eddington went into WWE promo mode. :( That blue background behind him did add a sense of serenity and calm to it, though. :D

Funny how it seems the writers intended this scene to be Sisko getting the last word...but it seems more like Eddington was right. He said something too close to home. Indeed, Sisko even BASICALLY admits it, saying that he wants Eddington to be punished. He couches it in terms of betrayal, but in the end, he's basically admitting Eddington is right by not contesting the point. Effectively, Sisko concedes by failure to even attempt a rebuttal that Eddington is right about the Federation, and about Sisko.

@nicolasg7601

4 жыл бұрын

SubduedRadical Sisko just sounds like a horrible authoritarian at the end. I know by the time of DS9 cynicism was “cool” but this is even worse than usual.

@commmander64

4 жыл бұрын

@@nicolasg7601 Sisko Even mentioned of a freaking PENAL COLONY. A PENAL COLONY! So the federation using forced labor is 100% Cannon. DAMN...

@Chaotic_Jackal

4 жыл бұрын

@@nicolasg7601 There's nothing authoritarian about making sure a defector is put on trail and imprisoned for their actions.

@nicolasg7601

4 жыл бұрын

GentlemenZay Okay, but there IS something authoritarian about bombing a planet with a WMD and forcing everyone there to relocate.

@rationalroundhead6739

3 жыл бұрын

@@nicolasg7601 Which is why Sisko gave them fair warning beforehand, which is a damnsight more then the Maquis gave the Cardassians the first time it happened.

Eddington's whole rant was horseshit. Plus, he never understood Sisko, not at all. It didn't matter who Eddington joined up with, Sisko could never abide a traitor, especially one that used him personally. He could have joined Vegans for Klingons and Sisko would have come and gotten him sooner or later. The fact that Eddington did join the Maquis and stay in Sisko's sphere of responsibility made it sooner.

Sisko has the best threats in all the different Star Treks

Star Fleet (TNG) : Earth is a crime-free paradise. Star Fleet (DS9) : We have show trials with pre-determined sentencing of life imprisonment without parole.

No threat to the federation? Yet they almost star a war between Cardassia and the Federation. Sorry Eddington, but the maqui are def a threat.

@oldtwinsna8347

Жыл бұрын

That's the point. The Federation sold out the colonists to get that peace and didn't even bother to ask them in the first place. It was unnecessary as the Federation had the upper hand regardless. Bad treaty to begin with.

This wasn’t about ideology, Endington betrayed Sisko simple as that. He tried to justify it with the call because he knew he crossed the wrong man.

The maquis had a point, they were attacked by the cardassians at multiple points. The federation was trying to protect the peace, though they were often naive about them. Before Eddignton I feel like they had a point about it and they often felt like desperate people trying to survive next to a group of people who hate them. But after eddigton joined I couldn’t see past his ego, it seemed he was more interested in being a hero and edging them in rather then truly what was best for the people in the DMZ

Eddington was spot on, and Sisko had no argument.

I never could sympathize with the Maquis and colonists in the dmz since they're suffering on there own free will. It would cost nothing to be relocated to a nice and safer world, but their bunker mentality keeps them in danger since there is no way they could ever beat Carrdassia.

@Mark-xh8md

5 жыл бұрын

Allow me to copy-paste a slightly edited version of my response to someone else above: "Hey, I want your home, so you have to give it to me. You can move somewhere else"

@wdcain1

5 жыл бұрын

@@Mark-xh8md But it's not that cut and dry. The planets in the DMZ were in dispute for over 20 years and the Federation regularly told the colonists they would have to relocate if negotiations ceded them to prevent war. I won't deny the colonists got a bad deal but they are deliberately choosing to make things worse instead of taking the smart option and having Starfleet relocate them to a safer planet where they won't have to deal with Cardassia at all.

@Mark-xh8md

5 жыл бұрын

@@wdcain1 - Yeah, why didn't their namesakes just roll over for the Germans, too? After all, their government had signed a treaty with the Germans....

@DaSuDanesi

4 жыл бұрын

@@Mark-xh8md Bit of a difference between "Hey, we know you've lived here for generations, but get out 'cuz we don't wanna fight for you" and "So you've decided to build a home on the Gaza Strip... Are you sure we can't talk you into moving somewhere less prone to explosions?"

@Mark-xh8md

4 жыл бұрын

@@DaSuDanesi - And it's the first one here. The Federation sold out the colonists. It basically pissed on them and then complained that they smelled

Quark was right

@beav1962

6 жыл бұрын

Insidious

@tomgriffiths2622

6 жыл бұрын

beav1962 YES 🖖

Still think Eddington hard deflects here, the Federation doesn't see the Maquis as a threat because they left paradise, they see them as a threat because they're an actual terrorist threat.

Can you believe that Eddington was the hero in Krull?

I agreed with Eddington completely on this. I hated that Sisco spent so much time and resources hunting the Maquis only for the Cardasians to betray the Federation in literally the next episode!

@oldtwinsna8347

Жыл бұрын

Sisko was simply naive but seemed to grow out of it as the war progressed, evident by his reflection on the actions taken to get the Romulans into the war. Picard also similar situation under different circumstances but we saw the Romulan evacuation dramatically change his view of the Federation.

I don't think Eddington was right, I think he wants to think of the Federation as this great evil to fight. But the 'insidiousness' comes from membership in the Federation generally making people's lives better. You want to get trade agreements with some of the work already done? You got it. You want to be part of a mutual defence pact? You want tech or medical assistance? Easily done. Are you ok with maintaining a moral framework that tries to respect life and liberty of the individual, and maintain peace as much as it's possible? Good stuff. You want to be part of a multi-species alliance that prevents you being exploited by the various imperialist powers? Welcome aboard. All those episodes of the various Enterprises showing up to worlds to help them out of jams, that's what membership of the Fed gets you. Beyond that, you get to manage your own affairs, for the most part. It's a pretty sweet deal. The Federation's 'weapons' are diplomacy, trade and culture. You could call that 'insidious', but it's not deceptive. They make no secret of this. In the series Enterprise we get a taste of what life was like in Federation space before the Federation, and it was kind of a mess. Andorians and Vulcans and Tellarites at one another's throats, Klingons raiding, Orions slaving, races screwing one another over in various petty ways. The Federation represents a whole bunch of little guys banding together to stand against the big guys, the Empires, before they each get flattened individually. The Maquis get a taste of what living outside the Federation is like; they're destroyed by someone bigger and nastier than they are in short order. Eddington and the Maquis seem angry that this doesn't work *perfectly* for *absolutely everyone,* but so far, it's the best hope for peace and sanity in the galaxy. It's a successful galactic power based on humanist (heh) principles that's lasted for a couple of centuries, and is fighting for what Civ games would call the 'culture victory'. Claiming the idea of convincing people to co-operate and deal with one another peacefully is worse than the forced assimilation of the Borg is nonsense.

@boscovilante4068

2 жыл бұрын

The Federation isn't attuned to the realities of its border region. Meanwhile Federation citizens get manhandled there and the Federation's response is senility. Alot of these colonists are done with this & want to take matters into their own hands. This is the core of the gripe.

@smartalec2001

2 жыл бұрын

@@boscovilante4068 They are, and they aren't. The Fed was 100% right when it told the colonists in the DMZ, 'no, *seriously,* you don't want to live here any more, it's a terrible idea, let us help set you up somewhere else.' It certainly IS a terrible idea to keep living there. And that deal is always on the table, right up to the point when the Maquis becomes a thing. But the colonists don't want that help, so the Fed feels there's not a lot they can do; the Fed Council likely won't authorise Starfleet to do anything that might provoke Cardassia. It's a *demilitarised* zone, after all.

Eddington really knew Sisko's ticking points. He was one step ahead all the time. Also, I sort of sympathised with The Maqui

Sisko was actually a villain in this series. The nuances of the writers were incredible

@ZainAhmad-jl4vt

6 ай бұрын

I'd loved it if it was nuanced but it seems more like the writers were just ignorant and actually believe this is how a hero should act. The crimes he commited never get any attention.

@beta_cygni1950

5 ай бұрын

​@@ZainAhmad-jl4vtUmmm, the writers literally wrote exposition where sisko decided to play the villian, using Les Misérables as a guide. It might help if you actually watched the episode before commenting on it, chief.

@ZainAhmad-jl4vt

5 ай бұрын

@@beta_cygni1950 I looked up the video to discuss the episode after waqtching it you dumbass

0:53 "We never harmed you" wrong. The Maquis were all federation citizens who broke the federation's word. Their reckless attacks jeopardized a peace that was hard fought and cost millions of lives between two of the most dominant powers in the quadrant. Inaction by the Federation would have only dragged them into a war as it would reflect no resolve to keep the treaty. I think back to a line from the movie "Kingdom of Heaven" in which Tiberius says to a man who tried to provoke war, "That I would rather live with men than kill them is certainly why you are alive."

@oldtwinsna8347

Жыл бұрын

The treaty was a farce as it sold out the colonists as sacrificial lambs when they weren't even bothered to be asked about it. Just told and directed to get out. It would be no different than a random politician telling you had to pick up and move tomorrow, your property seized, because the government feels like it and you have no due process rights at all. That would be expected of a rogue dictatorship, but this was supposed to be the enlightended Federation. Eddington simply calling out the Federation as the greatest evil out there because it is no different than other ruthless political structures, but they are worse because they try to justify it in other ways.

When the villain is right so the hero has to throw a tantrum.

@override367

4 жыл бұрын

Oh please, the villain is not right, The Maquis are a bunch of spoiled, entitled pieces of shit. The state does not have an obligation to wage a bloody and costly war so that you can cosplay farmer on this specific frontier world

@1funeral2many9

3 жыл бұрын

@Mark Morris ive noticed that pretty much all the antagonists in ds9 (winn, dukat, eddington) all had their own savior complexes like they saw themselves as story heros. eddington was the only one who had a good reason, even if he went about it in the sloppiest way and got himself killed more or less in the end. he's one of my fav characters

He's not wrong about the Borg. They are truthful and direct.

When Eddington was on the episode where Sisko shot resin into a biosphere Eddington almost sounds like Garak.

"We've *left* the federation, and thats the *one* thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves paradise, everyone should *want* to be in the federation." - Considering whats now going on in ST: Picard, it seems Eddington had a point. By the late 24th century, the federation is so obsessed with maintaining unity that they're even willing to let the Romulans die just so that 14 federation species wouldn't pull out.

@kamalalsb7292

3 жыл бұрын

@Emperor Ssraeshza no, You don't, because you're an asshat.

@stephenmurray2851

3 жыл бұрын

@@kamalalsb7292 No it's because it's sjw garbage

@kamalalsb7292

3 жыл бұрын

@@stephenmurray2851 And if DS9 or Voyager came out as a new series tomorrow you'd call it SJW Garbage too. Because you have wildly missed the fact that Star Trek was literally made by SJW's.

@umbra9472

3 жыл бұрын

@Kamala LSB At least they actually had good writing back then. The new shows have thrown continuity out the window.

@kamalalsb7292

3 жыл бұрын

@@umbra9472 No they haven't, they're just doing NEW THINGS. And this is exactly why the creators of every major sci-fi, superhero or fantasy show or movie have stopped listening to the "fans" and continued with Discovery, Star Wars, Etc, in the direction they always intended to go in, despite how loud people like you are: You're impossible to please. No new thing would make you happy. If Discovery was just like TNG or DS9, you'd be mad that it's unoriginal. Discovery does things very differently, you're mad because it's canon-breaking. There's no point listening to people like you because you're completely unreasonable and you decided that you hated these shows before ever watching them. And don't get me wrong - this does not apply to everyone who doesn't like New Trek. Plenty of people have valid, moderate reasons for saying "Just don't like it". I'm not one of those people, but it's really easy to spot people with valid reservations and people who just... fucking hate it, on principle.

.... Godsdamnit I hate making this comparison since I love them but... Agh! This describes the EU so well. Coming with promises of peace, prosperity, and happiness (and delivering often) but so many times only allowing those gifts when a people meet THEIR values and only then (like how a country can only enter when they are an explicit democracy. They don't even allow the Vatican even though its a democracy). But often it tries so hard to keep the peace going they will forgo the happiness of hundreds of their citizens to ensure the majority doesn't get hurt and often having a sort of snobbishness about themselves and their actions

@originalbadboy32

4 жыл бұрын

Well their (EU) values are about as good as human values get.. Also those values are based on British values as we helped build the EU. Simple fact is that is that us British just don't like it when someone else does something better than us. The EU are what the UK should have been, but sadly xenophobic and racist tendencies have come to the fore once again. Add a dash of popularism, imperialism and jingoism and you have Brexit in a nutshell. Whilst we can all see the parallels between the EU and the federation, the situation is somewhat different.

@thomastakesatollforthedark2231

4 жыл бұрын

@@originalbadboy32 agreed on a lot but not that the values of the EU are based on the British ones because you did NOT help build it. You joined in 1973 and the EU was founded as the ECSC in 1957 with the founding members being the Benelux, France, Germany, and Italy who actually build upon it and whom the values are based on

@thomastakesatollforthedark2231

4 жыл бұрын

@@originalbadboy32 ALSO: there where almost a dozen founding members of the current version of the EU so it wasn't based on your values. It was based on common European vallues

@epiendless1128

4 жыл бұрын

@@thomastakesatollforthedark2231 Actually the British were major players in establishing the European Convention on Human Rights after WW2. We just didn't join until later.

@thomastakesatollforthedark2231

4 жыл бұрын

@@epiendless1128 mhm. Sure.

Happy Birthday Sisko.

Wow. It's like he's talking about the European Union.

@thesupremegentlemanatheist7382

5 жыл бұрын

Except Eddington kills civilians, uses chemical weapons, attacks humanitarian ships sending aid to starving regions and then plays victim. Seems more like he's Syria to me.

@Mark-xh8md

5 жыл бұрын

@@thesupremegentlemanatheist7382 - Uses chemical weapons....you mean like Sisko?