Seeing an old man cry is moving. So sorry for all those affected. And those perished.

My wedding reception was at The Beverly Hills Country Club in June, 1976. The following year it burned to the ground. John Davidson was a hero that night. Another case of blocked exits and unnecessary deaths. Tragic.

@fleurmartin

5 ай бұрын

Isnt that the country club on 87th st? I dont know, but it sounds mighty familiar.

@debrapaulsonphotography-da4857

5 ай бұрын

@@fleurmartin not Beverly Hills, IL. Different state. Good video on that disaster from "Fascinating Horror".

As frightening as this was/is, we have NEVER learned as much as we need to from it. As long as greed trumps safety, we will NEVER be truly safe!

@653j521

2 жыл бұрын

You will never be truly safe, period. This isn't heaven.

Even with the improvements in fire safety, horrific examples still happen. Remember the MGM in Las Vegas, the Station Nightclub in Rhode Island, and more. I admit to being one of those people who looks around when I go into a building, wondering what sort of things could go wrong.

@LUIS-ox1bv

Жыл бұрын

Remember those incidents quite well. Cases of massive numbers of people dying in fires has continued up to our time. There was one in Brazil at a venue which killed a very large number of people.

I've read "Chicagos Awful Theatre Horror" By The Survivors And Rescuers With Introduction By Bishop Fallows. I can say after reading this Book, I had to at times take long breaks (weeks, sometimes more) and come back to it due to the incomprehensible horror, grim, and devastating nature of it all. With that being said I can greatly empathize for the Author recounting an account he read. There are some parts of this Tragedy that will make you have Nightmares and wish you could just forget it. However just like Life in itself, its important to take away the lessons and insight learned from Tragedies like this so we can hope to better educate and prevent anyone from ever having to go through this again.

My sister-in-law worked downtown.Her building was one of those that got flooded. She got stuck downtown for a while, then wound up being off work for a few days.

@stringlarson1247

5 ай бұрын

Yeah, it's hard to believe it was that long ago. Sheesh, time flies.

...and as always the rich walk away untouched....it makes me want to cry...600 soul's for money, SMH, rip to victims and their families and friends, Eddie Foy was a true hero, he's sadly almost forgotten now. Maybe this film will help us remember Eddie and the fire.....

@653j521

2 жыл бұрын

Eddie Foy and the Seven Little Foys forgotten? Nonsense. Check out the movie. 1955. Bob Hope played Eddie Foy.

@rosep3933

6 ай бұрын

I remember the movie, Yankee Doodle Dandy, James Cagney played George M. Cohan.

I had chills and tears when they showed the Iroquois Theater fire. Must have been absolutely terrifying for the people. I do not want to die in such a way.

@bakeranita6040

Жыл бұрын

..m .Milestone. M0mkm.mm..mm ..9mi ..o. .k.mu.i

@hattiemcpherson1850

7 ай бұрын

Horrible😢

@hoss-lk4bg

7 ай бұрын

self centered

@jerryhughes5380

5 ай бұрын

My Great Grandfather was a firefighter on Truck Co. 9 and he responded to the Iroquois Theater Fire.

@oldgordo61

4 ай бұрын

Indeed very tragic.. A similar tragedy happened in my hometown in Montreal in 1927 when 77 children were killed in a cinema fire. @@hattiemcpherson1850

I used to work as a forensic architecture technician. We did a lot of fire safety inspection jobs. Nowadays, it is the unseen fire safety features that are sometimes neglected. The most typical violations we found were lack of firewalls in the attic spaces of building, such as motels i.e. Wherever you see a wall in a top floor, motel room, that wall should extend all the way up through to the roof and have a certain level of fire rating. Also, electrical outlets on either side of adjacent hotel and condo units are not supposed to be aligned with each other and should have a minimum separation to slow the transmission of fire between units, but this is overlooked sometimes. Other issues included not having enough fire retardant filling the annular spaces where pipes pass from/through one floor to another.

@susiearviso3032

4 ай бұрын

Precautions weren't up to date as it would be now.

It seems to be a commonplace for the exits to be locked or blocked so someone can't sneak into the venue right up into the 1980s, making something bad so much worse. It also seemed to be a commonplace that the [bleep] owners walked with light penalties or fines, and in this case, no justice at all. This is the first time I've heard of the Chicago flood. Kudos to the "Flood Stud."

I love this series. I was born in Chicago and raised in the suburb, North Chicago. I never heard of most of these stories! I now live in Vegas but I'm getting educated about Chicago! Love it!!!!

@darlenesmith5524

7 ай бұрын

I was 9 months old when the school fire of 1958 happened, I had never heard that story until this week when I seen it on KZread. My parents moved from Chicago when I was in the 5th grade. I’m 66 now, not once did they mention that fire to me or my siblings.

@rosep3933

6 ай бұрын

I was in first grade and my brother was in 7th grade at Holy Trinity Grammar School when the fire happened at Our Lady of the Angels in 1958. Mom's family from downstate Illinois and California called us to find out if we attended Our Lady of the Angels.

20 minutes for the theatre fire? This brought a tear to my eye just utterly horrific.

The Eastland disaster of 1915 claimed 844 lives, (or a similar number). The Eastland capsizing in the Chicago River was by far the worst disaster in Chicago history. No one is saying the lives lost in these other fires weren't important. It is just the Eastland needs to be remembered. So many Westinghouse Electric employees and their families died in this horrendous calamity. I think a future city official named Cermak rose to prominence by helping families with funerals. Cermak later became a popular well liked mayor of Chicago. He was assassinated from bullets meant for FDR in 1933 in Florida.

@frankkolton1780

Жыл бұрын

My grandfather was walking across the Clark St. bridge when the Eastland capsized. Him and his partner owned a canopied tour boat on the Chicago River that they kept docked there. He helped pull a few people out, but most had already drown. His and other boats dragged grappling hooks to snag and bring up the bodies from the bottom. Interesting fact: More passengers died on the Eastland than on the Titanic.

@scottgrunow5201

7 ай бұрын

My great aunt drowned in the Eastland disaster.

@scottgrunow5201

7 ай бұрын

Western Electric. Both my grandparents worked there

@feverspell

6 ай бұрын

@@frankkolton1780 Considering over 1500 people died on the Titanic but only 844 people died on the Eastland, you would be quite wrong.

@frankkolton1780

5 ай бұрын

@@feverspell Reading and reading comprehension is an important life skill. Of the approximate 1500 people killed on the Titanic, about 700 of them were crew members. That's 800 passengers killed.

Really enjoying this series. I am not from Chicago. But my birthday is also on December 30th. And ever since I learned about the Iroquois Theater fire, I take a moment, every year, to think about the victims and their families. To remember that, even though it's a happy day for me, it's the anniversary of a day that was unthinkably tragic, for hundreds. And I say a little prayer for them all.

I remember the flood well, but I still had family in Chicago, and my sister worked downtown. I don't think I remember about much of a panic, but Chicago is just one of those places where people take things in stride. Great stories and historical information.

@katc5051

Жыл бұрын

I was in the Loop that day. Everything was orderly but what was eerie was how quiet is it. No one spoke.

Thank you for this wonderful documentary about the Iroquois fire. There isn't much out there regarding this fire and it's a story that sadly hasn't been told enough. Thank you for doing this for not only those intrigued by this unique history but also for the memory of those who perished.

@JosephKulik2016

2 жыл бұрын

The simple reason that it's been ignored by the Corporate owned Mass Media is because it makes GREEDY Capitalists like those theater owners look so bad !!! Especially because they Got Away With MASS MURDER !!!

@bryancoats5328

2 жыл бұрын

There was another documentary regarding the Iroquois, the Cocoanut Grove Fire, and Happyland Fire; Wrath of God: Inferno, I believe is what it is called.

@1977seabiscuit

2 жыл бұрын

@@bryancoats5328 Thank you, Bryan. I appreciate the info.

@indy_go_blue6048

2 жыл бұрын

@@bryancoats5328 Bad Day HQ has videos on this event, Coconut Grove, and several other fires and other horrendous events in a Canadian tv series called "Disasters of the Century."

@ExcrementalDisplay

7 ай бұрын

There's a very good book on the fire called Tinder Box by Anthony P Hatch.

@51:20 Wow, those divers are my heroes! I almost had a panic attack just seeing that part of the video. wttwchicago thank you for this informative, well created and professionally presented story!

The burning ( pardon the pun), part about the “fire codes” is that most of the codes had not been written, and unfortunately it takes tragedies like this to enact change. There is a reason why it’s said that the electric code books and Fire code books are written in blood.

Corruption in chicago?

@billolsen4360

2 жыл бұрын

Unthinkable! Look at their fine administration today. But view it from afar, you wouldn't want to go out on their streets.

@natewilliams3211

2 жыл бұрын

From the city departments to the mayor office. Nothing changes in Chicago.

@MikeSmith-rx4uz

2 жыл бұрын

A liberal acquaintance of mine said she felt safe going to chicago because they have to wear masks but, they wouldnt take their good car because they didn't want it to get stolen

@billolsen4360

2 жыл бұрын

@@MikeSmith-rx4uz LOL! Only take your '86 Chevette.

@drats1279

2 жыл бұрын

who woulda thunk it"

My Great Grandpa use to work in those tunnels to set the phone wires.

@hoss-lk4bg

7 ай бұрын

liar

@Look_What_You_Did

5 ай бұрын

@@hoss-lk4bg Says the loser....

I listen to documentaries while I'm sleeping and it's interesting how my dreams will often mirror whats playing. I just woke up from a dream where there was a flood and my son had to be rescued and the water Was freezing and smelled like oil. My heart is pounding.

@hoss-lk4bg

7 ай бұрын

you'd really love them while awake junior

@stringlarson1247

5 ай бұрын

Audio books too.

I have an issue of Theater Magazine which has extensive coverage of the Iroquois Fire. Sadly, the same magazine had articles about lack of fire safety in theaters across the country a year earlier. So, the danger of fire in theaters was recognized but not acted upon.

@hoss-lk4bg

7 ай бұрын

liar

This is completely insane. What is wrong with people? The place is on fire and you continue to dance? Omg.

Right, saying a building is fireproof is like saying the Titanic was unsinkable. Never tempt Fate - she'll take up the challenge. And then, allowing a $10,000.00 repair to balloon to $200,000,000.00 is a REALLY bad roll of the dice. Bureaucrats gambled, & lost.

I bet those tunnels came in handy during Prohibition.

This man has got a heart and a soul. RIP

@hoss-lk4bg

7 ай бұрын

for tha rest of us.....who is " this man "

@cathyl2338

5 ай бұрын

@@hoss-lk4bglol. Same

....greed always comes ahead of safety, throughout history, every thing is flammable and we see it over and over, inflamability is like unsinkable, there's no such thing as either....

Our Lady of the Angels Fire

This is really really cool I like Chicago stories and I'm not even from Chicago

I love my city. I swear in any time period you can always get something done with an envelope and a handshake here

Benjamin Marshall also designed the Nixon Theater in Pittsburgh that opened after the Iroquois Theater tragedy. Because of the fire, ramps were put in instead of stairs so that people could get out quickly in case of fire.

@deby5983

2 жыл бұрын

What a good idea to use ramps! Now I understand why they are found in some buildings!

@JayPersing

2 жыл бұрын

@@deby5983 I mean, wheelchair users also need to use buildings 😂

@sandyworkman3025

2 жыл бұрын

@@deby5983 of course wheelchairs used the ramps but because they had ramps instead of stairs meant they were meant for everyone. And also prove quicker to escape a fire.😎

@michaelseltz4460

2 жыл бұрын

Wow! Not a shock though in 1900 Chicago - “The Jungle” our long History of our leaders in cahoots with Big Money In joyful partnerships, just as it should be when money is the National pasttime

@hoss-lk4bg

7 ай бұрын

something like that

This is a great series. I used to record them off TTW.

This is my worst fear being burnt alive I know it was over a century ago rip to the victims

@hoss-lk4bg

7 ай бұрын

I, I, I, something wrong with this picture

This underground / basement flooding could happen in just about any city around the world. The infrastructure is old, and for the most part, ignored. And The very idea that someone would dismiss a quote for repair or maintenance, without the capacity to consider what the potential fallout might be if the situation is not repaired (eg $2M) just boggles the mind. Poor awareness and planning... but then, really, who could have anticipated it... We humans never like to learn lessons when money is involved (greed wins every time).

I've seen a few other versions of this story on Bad Day HQ, Raven Eye, etc., but this is by far the best, most complete version of this tragic event that I've seen. Excellent job, wttw.

Being from New England, this appear like the Coconut Grove fire. The owners had chained and locked the side doors. Decorations were flammable. Both fires were just awful.

“ they had children at home”, insinuating that people that have children can be more sympathetic to the death of children and people who don’t can’t. what an insult!

God love that Eddie..the only one to evacuate in drag??? He doesn’t get nearly enough credit...

@susiearviso3032

4 ай бұрын

Huh???

I lived in Chicago during the flood and while I remember the flood, I don't really remember the panic. Just that it affected some of my Uni buildings. Definitely heard about the Iroquois Fire. Also remember the CTA crash where one train feel off the elevated tracks.

@cwshawk

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, the Loop L crash/derailment and the Eastland disaster are two big ones compared to the flood.

Chicago the best city in the world

@user-is6de8pp7k

6 ай бұрын

Accept for the Corrupt politics.

@fleurmartin

5 ай бұрын

Ummm, ok. If you say so

I’ve heard of the Great Chicago fire, it’s the reason Chicago is call “Second City”, every one knows that but how I got to my age without knowing of the horrific fire of the Iroquois Theater is beyond me but I’m ashamed to admit I was completely ignorant of this disaster. The number of lives lost, especially the children is heartbreaking to learn even today. The Coconut Grove nightclub fire seems to get more recognition and it doesn’t compare to this tragedy. Now that I am aware I’ll never forget! 23:51

@05HeritageSoftail

7 ай бұрын

That's not where the name second city came in. Look it up

Money and greed cost so many lives 😢😢😢😢Nothing was as it seemed May the victims continue to rest in heavenly peace

It is one of the best documentaries I have seen. The firefighter talking is absolutely correct true is we try to hide the sorrow! I can say sadly I had two children the first I sat in my car for an hour before going inside my house. Hiding how I was feeling from everyone. I still feel the sorrow. I can't imagine what these brothers felt or the ones at the Our Lady of the Angels fire. Or how they managed after.

The absolute fear knowing you’re likely to perish by burning to death or being trampled.

I never go to mass human gatherings even if they are held outdoors. Panic bar doors can still be LOCKED SHUT!

Remember this well. Crazy event.

@hoss-lk4bg

7 ай бұрын

liar

excellently produced

I've watched and read enought of these stories, everything from making that's last seasonal run on the great lakes, luxury liners arrivals, train schedules met, Dams built.. it's amazingly one thing always come to my mind...their always in a rush to make a buck, with out a care in the world for people saftey. From construction, to entertainment... 9/10 times its always end in a disaster.

Did they learn? No, the result is no.

The crash bar was invented by a british (scottish maybe) boy Whose family member was crushed to death in a tragedy where all the kids on the upper levels rushed down the stairs and many where crushed at the doors.

@michaelverbakel7632

Жыл бұрын

I think that tragedy was the Victoria Hall tragedy in England where 2 to 300 people mostly all children were crushed to death.

@tundrawomansays694

8 ай бұрын

⁠@@michaelverbakel7632Thank you. I will look for this documentary program-and hope I can find it. Hope springs eternal ;-) Any other recommendations regarding Chicago History are most welcomed!

Fun fact, here in illinois its civil code that doors leading to an exit open outward* being said, there are some exceptions, like bedrooms, but every building's main exits open outward

I absolutely stand behind you and will/Would do anything I can to help you. We are so blessed to have such dedicated Sheriff Officers in our county! Those few that are showing aggression to you and the other Officers are not the majority and do not speak for us!

@Look_What_You_Did

5 ай бұрын

Hope you find sobriety.

@Erica_Brenda

5 ай бұрын

@@Look_What_You_Did I am sober and have never had an issue with it. I hope you learn the meaning of sobriety.

The statement was made that the deaths were among upper to middle class citizens brought attention to the catastrophe. I can’t help but wonder if the same outrage would have been for the poor citizens of Chicago especially in those days. Sad story and senseless lost😒

Those dancers were foolish, they should have informed the audience that it was best to leave. Why not cancel the show.

Not sure I want to go inside a Chicago building ever again. Scary what goes on this city since it was incorporated, it continues today and sure will continue tomorrow

I don't even live In Chicago but this is intriguing

@hoss-lk4bg

7 ай бұрын

ok

Those inspectors and builders should have gotten life at hard labor as mass murderers.

@hoss-lk4bg

7 ай бұрын

life at hard labor...

In 1903, the fire service was not a technological force that it is today. Their rigs were horse drawn, not motorized, their dispatch was firewatchmen, in a firetower.

14:00 What a dilemma, to tell everyone they must evacuate immediately but that there is also no danger. 26:21 You can always find members of the bar willing to sell their soul for a fat paycheck, from from the lowliest lawyers to the highest placed judges.

Great video. I guess we have to learn the hard way in order to makes things right. We learn from our mistakes.👍

So awful 600 deaths in one building

So sad it had to be horrible being in thst situations with the fire going on and no way out especially the people who sat in the balcony rest in peace

These divers r some brave r crazy people indeed ,so so scary and thank God none died doing this crazy thing .Im so very sorry for what happen at the theater ,those poor people and it seems things like this still happens in other places even today ,with all We know and have and I wonder if these places cheaped out on making them safe for people .

Are these theater fires why in the US people were stopped from smoking at the movies much sooner than in the UK?

It is not a “crash bar”. It is a “panic bar”

@bordershader

2 ай бұрын

It's either. They're definitely most commonly called crash bars in the UK.

around the world has never heard of this disaster like Woolworths in downtown central Manchester north west of England 1979.

The demographic of the Iroquois Theater victims was primarily middle class and upper middle class. The demographic of the Eastland and Our Lady of the Angels Fire victims was working class and lower middle class. Would be interesting to discuss differences in current media coverage and later historical scholarship.

@frankkolton1780

7 ай бұрын

All three disasters were equally huge in Chicago press at the time, nationally, the press coverage died out quickly on all of them. I think a better comparison would be the Eastland (1915 with 844 killed) vs the Titanic (1912 and 1503 killed). Despite being the same time period and a large loss of life on both, the Titanic received 1000x more coverage (and still garners attention in our culture today). The Titanic sinking was much more dramatic and had multiple story lines, it's international, a unsinkable ship is sent to the bottom by an iceberg, the nearby ship doesn't recognize the trouble, the rescue by other ships, a luxury liner, and famous captains of industry going down with the ship. With the Eastland you have an old day tour ship that capsizes in a river, no ships to the rescue. (By the way, my grandfather was witness to it that day). It's not hard to understand, it comes down to human nature, the more dramatic the story is, the more we pay attention to it, the more life it has in the media. That's the way it has always been.

"Absolutely Fireproof" at the Iroquois sounds a little like the HMS Titanic's boast of "Unsinkable."

I've read the "Tinder Box" book. Very well put together.

This was a terrible event that could have been prevented if only the owners had followed the city regulations that were on the books. The inspectors were bribed, did not do their jobs, and failed the victims. The owners were never punished. They had no morals. A travesty of justice. God bless the people lost, especially the children. I learned about this tragedy when taking Fire Fighting I. After more classes in my career I became an Instructor II, and always presented this event and the lessons learned. Lt. Rick K. Jr. MFD

Seems to me that many venues are going back to this. Many are cutting corners to speed up the building process and to cut costs. Money talks and no one walks. It’s a sad situation.

Lady on the sidewalk: “I’ve been standing here for half an hour trying to find a way to get the short distance home.” Uh……..feet……..walk?

@susiearviso3032

4 ай бұрын

Huh?

@bordershader

2 ай бұрын

She must have been wearing killer heels, that's all I can think. But yeah, I thought that too!

😩" @4:06, the narrator said The Iroquois Theater owners ' spared no expense ' .... They did EXCEPT FOR COMPLETE FIRE SAFETY INSTALLATIONS. Just as terrible as the horrific aftermath was the judicial system failing to convict Them. I hope They're burning in Hell no less harrowing than what the doomed Iroquois theatergoers went through. "

They should subtitle in various languages!

@hoss-lk4bg

7 ай бұрын

no thanks

So IF the actors on the stage had stopped and loudly informed people to exit the theater quickly but orderly... lives could have been saved. BECAUSE the dancers on the stage continued, folks in the audience assumed that the smoke was just another "special effect" in the show. Crazy!

Slowing the flow of water…….big airbags put into the tunnel, inflate until they seal against the sides.

@653j521

2 жыл бұрын

You have some of those handy you could take back in your time machine?

@hint0122

3 ай бұрын

Great idea. How do you get them down, positioned correctly, and inflated?

@bordershader

2 ай бұрын

And constructed quickly enough to deploy in a timely manner?

People died in the 1942 Cocoanut Grove Fire because doors STILL opened in😢

@gorillaau

2 жыл бұрын

I recall from someone that the doors were on the building plans to open outward but was later changed to open inwards.

@anthonycaruso8443

2 жыл бұрын

Maureen.Just thinking the same thing.It seems people just do not get it.

@Ypres-gg6wg

Жыл бұрын

I thought the same thing when I was watching. I assume the new law was just for Illinois. the greed of immoral people knows no bounds and worse, they always get away with it, think the triangle fire in NY circa 1913.

@LUIS-ox1bv

Жыл бұрын

Yes. The fact that the decor was highly flammable, was largely ignored.

@hoss-lk4bg

7 ай бұрын

cocoanut.....another internet wizard

Do you have a documentary of the Lasalle hotel fire of 1946 in chicago

@LUIS-ox1bv

Жыл бұрын

I remember the LaSalle Hotel on LaSalle St before they demolished it. This historic building was refurbished after the fire and was torn down, along with Louis Sullivan's masterpiece; the Chicago Stock Exchange Building, during the 70s, and replaced with banal towers.

These stories are very well produced. Don't understand why, though, the title isn't "Eddie Foy (and the Iroquois Theater fire).

Great idea for a horror movie because I know it's angry ghost in that theater 🎥

And he ain’t tell nobody about the back door that’s Fxcked up😢unacceptable no hero

Last year was the 120th Anniversary of the Iroquois Theater fire.

...amazing work by the local authorities, they didn't give up....

i just don’t understand why those ppl didnt began leaving when they saw smoke☹️💔

@Look_What_You_Did

5 ай бұрын

Despite being told exactly why? Dumb... you is.

At 52:00 there is an interview where the guy talks about his divers and it being "pitch black" and the divers working "totally by feel". I wish I was there, I would have told him about a new invention: the electrical torch lamp.

@653j521

2 жыл бұрын

Too bad you weren't there to instruct the experts.

@JamesGrim08

Жыл бұрын

In zero vis water it'll just reflect and illuminate an inch or so in front of you if you are lucky. That ends up blinding you more than anything, but your a commercial diver, so I could be wrong... (You can see in multiple shots they have lights...ffs)

He signed off on bridges he didn’t inspect because he couldn’t find a parking spot? Ever heard of a TAXI?

@bradsanders407

2 жыл бұрын

They are all within reasonable walking distance of each other. He may as well have said he would have done it but Santa Claus and the toothed fairy kidnapped him.

Corruption was standing tall even before Capone showed up. Sadly we've haven't learned much from things like this yes they've add "safety components" BUT the attitude of corruption hasn't changed.

So after all these years was justice served

Corruption exists in every major city, always has and always will

Lime light is so dangerous! What are they thinking of!

Call me naive but I honestly believed that by 1950 there would be comprehensive data on every last thing that exists in downtown Chicago. So many projects on projects on projects. I dont understand. In my mind...I need to replace these pilings that protect the bridges that are on either side of the Chicago River. I go to the database of everything having to do with each bridge. Each side of the bridge. Any work done in the history of ever. How could they not know?

The owners are to blame.....he wore the blood of the deceased on thier hands

Couldn’t find a place to park??? WOW!

@55:16 "Did they learn to not let small problems become big problems?" Um ... streets and parking meters.

Exit signs not installed for aesthetics ? Doors opening the wrong way? Fire escapes marked as fire escapes but were just doors opening onto nothing so people fell to their deaths? And the owners got off free? No one was charged or had to pay for what was clearly their responsibility? What a blatant disregard for human lives! The greed is disgusting!

@Look_What_You_Did

5 ай бұрын

Laws are written in blood. You got any other witty comments?

🕊🌎🕊🕊sharing🦋

Some people can work fast and accurate but some people can just work fast.

South Side Disasters, a 497 episode series.

50:00 That is a $687.85 spread between the highest and lowest bid. Any comptroller would see that and know the bids are fixed. You play ball you are allowed to bid. You low ball... and that is the last bid you ever win. Really love the responses that have any number to the right of the decimal. Some real prices is right bullshit.

I don't think it would have been much more of a death trap if they had designed it that way.