Just want to make one last comment on the subject especially because i’m seeing a lot of takes that are… Yeah. Dot vs Form isn’t a matter of which one guarantees the most success it’s a matter of priority. Both are ways to achieve the goal of a good looking visual program. Obviously the goal is to make a form appear for the audience. Some ways work better in certain situations sure. It would be incorrect to state that form is better because of X reason because we have SEEN the success of dot not just in the cavaliers era but in recent years as well. Vanguard had a stunning visual program in 2018. Prioritizing Dot over “Form”(really just guiding) doesn’t mean that the actual formation isn’t the goal just like Form over dot doesn’t mean that the formation can be wherever on the field. Members(and even techs) should have an open mind and analyze both techniques when deciding which one to teach and to what extent. Dual responsibility is and has always been the name of the game.

Whatever the Cavaliers were doing back in the day is the correct answer to this question.

@anthonydixon4636

5 ай бұрын

Exactly!

@1stclasspercussionis

5 ай бұрын

The best ever.

@2ToyBoys

4 ай бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/aIuF2LmgfceyfJs.htmlsi=9HSzCF9UBu11QZ3x Cavaliers 1991....that whole ending!

This is incredibly thoughtful. I marched a finalist form corps in the early 2010s, and the dreaded "curve that drifts 3 steps over the course of the season" and "having to adjust the form to marchers who are lost on the field" were real frustrations. One technique we did that helps with this is to always adjust to the dot at the end of each rep in rehearsal, but dress the form during reps.

@cubingslander

5 ай бұрын

this is exactly how my high school marching band did it!

@anthonykaiser974

5 ай бұрын

Amen! People are adaptable, younger people moreso. They just need to know what is expected of them/responsible for, limits/extent of their authority. Ambiguity is just a part of life.

As a designer, dot always, but… With the more theatrical direction the activity is going, you have to be able to do both. And yes, theatrical staging is a nightmare in Pyware.

@drilldesigner

5 ай бұрын

"....theatrical staging is a nightmare in Pyware." I've made my peace with it. I plot my freeform scatters dot by dot with custom pathways. Pyware does the work of layering on those custom arrow pathways now with V11.

@Scjdrilldesigns

5 ай бұрын

@@drilldesigner same. It just takes way longer to design a show, and then you have to trust that they have a staff that can finesse the product to accommodate how the kids move. Thank goodness for that update, but still got to finesse the motion with the FTL tool.

@drilldesigner

5 ай бұрын

@@Scjdrilldesigns I use the adjuster tool

@F.A.D.E.R

5 ай бұрын

Agreed, todays activity needs the ability for both to exist in a show - Ive heard it called "visual intonation" - your dot is like the info you get from a tuner, useful but not the full story when in the moment - one has to be able to adjust their movements like they have to adjust to the others playing around them (matching color, pitch, etc - same goes for drill) Atleast, thats how I understood my shows and drill

So my HS and college were a blend of the two. You learn the drill based on dot, but march the show based on form.

@Stonkzy

5 ай бұрын

Same with us. We use dot sheets to learn our drill but we mostly have Blue Devils vis staff so we also focus on form more later in our season

2018 we got 19.9 - 19.9 in both visual analysis and proficiency marching dot or die. Then you guys have been winning with near perfect scores as well in those captions using form so I'd say they both have the same potential at least. (I've only ever marched dot)

As a former form sheep, I can safely say I was converted to a dot enjoyer by Matt Hartwell and the Regiment vis staff last summer. Great video man

9:50 A note about a perfect 8-to-5 being required: You can actually have a marking every two steps on the field by just switching to a 10-to-5 grid instead of 8-to-5. It’ll take a bit of extra time to retool members into thinking in a new grid, and doing basics blocks in intervals of 5 instead of 4 is a bit tricky sometimes, but it is braindead easy to hit left/right spots when there’s a good reference every two steps instead of every four. The numbers (top and bottom) are also much easier to use as reference since they’re a whole number of steps away from the sidelines in that grid, making reading the field that much easier.

@farmervillager8651

5 ай бұрын

You can also just have the corps know how the yard markers fit with 8-5 steps. Cascades was dot or die last year and they made sure we knew the yard markers were 1.6 or 3.2 steps in.

@junidip

5 ай бұрын

@@farmervillager8651 BK was dot or die last year, used the 10-5 system. you didn't have to once think "does this look like 1.6 steps?" you just quite simply knew exactly how your left-to-right was supposed to look. Sped up the cleaning process by a lot.

@CJsMusicTrumpet

5 ай бұрын

I was not aware of BK using a 10-5 grid. 10-5 grid is definitely not something I’ve ever heard of but I can understand why it might be better in some ways. I guess my biggest concern would be the difference in step size. at least during basics. 8 to 5 seems like a lot more natural while 10 to 5 seems quite small.

@rosestewart0

5 ай бұрын

@@CJsMusicTrumpet 10-to-5 feels very natural to me and my natural step size when I’m just walking casually ends up being around a 6 or 7-to-5. In my mind, marching and walking are just fundamentally different methods of moving, similar to how walking and running are different. It’s all about the teaching of it.

@jeremyseneca2311

5 ай бұрын

👏

Okay so I have a somewhat different background due to the fact that I teach both marching and and drum corps: At least in the northeast…there’s an overall philosophy that you march to the form, check/clean to the dot. When teaching in the early season and band camp/spring training, there’s a HUGE emphasis on being where the dot is and prioritizing being on the dot to build that muscle memory. As we get later into the season, we start to transition to prioritizing the form and checking/adjusting to the dot when checking and cleaning throughout the season. Members are taught by the staff to recognize that your dot is important but ultimately the form is what the audience and the judges see. I think most programs prioritize the form over dot for one obvious reason you mentioned early on in the cons part of the video…there are people that will not be consistent around you. Especially with high school kids, you can’t rely on ALL of them being on their dot ALL the time. Not all members are experienced enough to do that.

The dots are useful to teach a large amount of people quickly with little staff, and you still have to use form and guide. Theoretically, it seems like form and guide would be less efficient for learning the drill, but better late in the season when looking for precision. I think DCI uses this way because it takes more intellect and high schools don't always have that

@CJsMusicTrumpet

5 ай бұрын

You don’t HAVE to use any way. That was the whole point of the video.

I think it depends on membership, designer and staff. As an instructor myself I do a hybrid, dot on more mathematically dependent forms and form on curves, circles and ftl. I’ve found this to work best for my students, but it could be totally different for an ensemble just down the road.

Set 23: S2 2 1/2 out 30, 1 1/4 IFFH -Phantom Regiment 23 member

this is hella educational as a front ensemble person who has only marched bass drum during parades.

@SWilla00946

5 ай бұрын

sometimes i think about how things will be when im a band director and need of the drill and vis staff because i dont understand it at all

Good vid. I've always been a fan of hybrid.

I always did dot during rehearsal but then reverted to form in the final run through and performance- Nick Giardiello

@ScrappyNicko

3 ай бұрын

And I marched Before there were computers to write the drill. Contra with the Reading Buccaneers in the early 1980’s.

Personally, I can’t speak for “form” marching because my high school’s band was a dot or die. However, I can say that I still remember where exactly I’m supposed to be on the field from my 2015 show, as well as the opening set from 2013. Another thing I remember from 2013 is that in the second movement, other members of my section had to take smaller steps while I took bigger steps to create the line we were marching. It only happened in the first few steps of the drill, so it wasn’t super noticeable, but since I did march it, I can easily remember.

Dot or die! You dress the dots based on a key person usually a more experienced marcher. You can only improve if you can measure progress and dots allow you to measure vs the feel-good nature of form.

Personally as someone who is still in high school we have a dot for each set but that's more to get an idea of the form we usually will stray away from that later in the season and just try to have a smooth form where people are dressing to each other

Great video.

Great vid. I marched to the form most of my summers in DCI, but one transition year we had Pete Weber writing drill (before he went to SCV) along with Cavies vis staff. I've seen some commenters say that when they marched dot, they would dot dive when learning drill and during rehearsal but guide during performance. The year when we marched dot, we never looked at the form. I prefer it because I don't have to rely on other people to have a 'clean' show. And when all the marchers are doing their part, I think the drill looks a lot cleaner in transit - its not all about hitting the form on the right count, it has to look good getting there too, and that can add a lot to GE as well as visual analysis and proficeincy! In short, with dot, it only looks clean if everyone does their homework and performs consistently, which can be a tall order even in some corps (to say nothing of most high school bands). With form, it only looks clean if you're able to adapt in real time. I found the latter frustrating, and sometimes distracting from my other on-field responsibilities

I have been waiting for this for months

Great video!

Love your videos. One issue I am having is the volume. I have to turn my volume quite a bit to hear you. If you could adjust that in future videos I think that would be great. Keep up the wonderful content.

Honestly dot just looks so much more pleasing to me. I'm not a fan of the random scattering and floating to forms nowadays, and that's coming from a young guy who isn't even "stuck in the old ways".

Good video. I am sure it has given many a lot to think about. I do not know a group that has ever marched true form only (perhaps pre 1970 or so) where the forms were allowed to morph all season long and with the general notion that you always stay between two people and stay in the form. If such were the case, many of the forms we see that are clearly written to key points on the grid would not exist as such. I ascribe to using both methods simultaneously. True "Dot or die" relies on individual perfection on perfect fields with a lot of time for reps. Marching is a physical skill that requires seeing, and seeing with great discernment. I find that developing the best skilled marchers requires the set of skills used by both methods, especially with younger groups.

My band kinda does both, we have dots but mostly just use them as guidelines and then dress later

Depends on the group for me but usually I find a balance between both works well for different moments in the show I agree with the pro that form form form works way better than dot especially with younger performers great video!!! 🎉

Watching actually made me think about what my high school has done. See for us, we use dots but its not dots to die on. A lot of the sets end up being really long themselves leaving room for the staff to do sort if form based movement with the time between the dots. However our shows DO utilize dot drill writing also. We ended up having this weird mix of the two so it makes me think who else has done this in the marching world. PS: probably Mandarins because our drill writer, brass caption head, and field staff all marched/worked at Mandarins.

I marched the dot system with Santa Clara, the DCI group I teach is form (although I teach brass). The aspect of dot diving I really like is the fact that it places a lit if responsibility on the students and, if taught correctly, they will clean their own drill. Also, dot diving drill gives the illusion that the drill is cleaner because the form spacing doesnt breathe during sets.

The way I teach my school is that you need to hit your side-to-side dot (where the high frequency of field markings leads to a lower margin of performer error), but there will often be front-to-back adjustments to fix the form (where the lack of frequent field markings lends itself to a higher margin of performer error). Another thing to note is field marking consistency - a much bigger problem if you're handpainting vs you have a prefab turf field. Since my school's stadium converted recently, I've changed by dot:form split from 20:80 to 80:20.

I literally had no clue people did not do dot... I only marched high school but this opened my eyes so much! Fascinating! I still love dot a lot more though!

My school does a bit of both in my opinion. We do a lot of form drill because we take some inspiration from BD because they are local to us. Form drill can look cool IF it is done with great execution and performance. I agree with your idea of form drill, it doesn’t take as long as Dot-Or-Die drill because you are relying on others and dressing to the form. However, I found that we often argued about where the dot originally was, and the initial form moved around the field because we can’t settle where it was originally defined. With Dot-Or-Die, I found that the director would always get mad at us if we didn’t hit our dot, or people can’t hit their dot. It is relatively harder to clean in my opinion because it is all on each individual player to make the drill set effective. Pretty good video

This is really useful to know from pit

From what I remembered, i marched dot in both corps I did but we also adjusted if need be to the form. Never had to make them super big but it was never just dot

I marched Bloo at the turn of the century and we marched dot. I was under the assumption that everyone marched dot sets, but guided form on the move (unless there was a scatter or choreography). Ultimately, the form mattered in performance. There was no dichotomy when it came to 'being right'. We had the dots. We were quizzed on our coordinates. But in ensemble visual, we marched to the form and would "check and adjust" to dot throughout rehearsal. I don't know that they do it differently now... they still have a lot of the same administrative, caption, and design staff today as back then...

my high school used a mixture of both. we did have dots we would have to memorize but my bd’s would stress about keeping form no matter what, so that if someone misses a dot everyone else around them has to adjust.

I think using both is the best, but as someone who has been taught by scv alumni and techs I am definitely partial to dot as I think it allows for the most precision and you don’t have to worry about others as much as if they aren’t in their dot thats a them problem and you know you’re right. doing more technical stuff also becomes less nightmarish as it is just more of the normal. however I think even with trying to only use dot you also end up including form and guide in teaching some moves as it just makes more sense. overall I think I’m going to prefer dot but I can understand both’s uses. also esp for highschool I think dots are a less complicated thing to teach to people who are just learning marching while also allowing people to push themselves as you know exactly when you’re the problem.

I feel like you want a good mix between the two of them, you want to be able to be on your dots for the important spots and the easy spots, but you should also be able to correct if someone else isn’t on their dot by fitting the form, and making it look good. Imo it should be a 60-40% dot-form so you can be on dots often but if you need to make slight changes to make it look better then you should be able and allowed to.

defintely some interesting insight here. I've always known that Blue Devils never did dot marching and that they were simply just "told" where to go and how to get there (I know there is a lot more than that) so that they pretty never ended up having dots for any of their drill. I am a firm believer of form over dot as well, but I also believe that the ability to know what it is the "better" way of learning and cleaning drill is also super dependent on what you are trying to achieve, and can change often within a single show. I marched Mandarins this past season, and while we did use UDB to learn our drill, there were a lot of times where, like the Blue Devils, we were told to either do something that was different from the UDB drill (the helix drill was slightly altered for real life than it was on the computer) or even completely ignored what was there all together (our opener choreography + most of the ballad). Yet, we also had a lot of parts in our show that relied heavily on complicated move sets that required us to know where we were supposed to be on the field every couple of counts or so. Even if we are marching similarly to Cavaliers, I do think that understanding the overall form is more important than hitting your dot. Humans aren't perfect, and no matter how much you practice it, you aren't always going to nail a 6.34 step size backwards slide the same way every single time (humans aren't perfect) so, especially in curvilinear forms, being able to adjust the form in the middle of a move based on the people around you is going to find more success in terms of a visual score than everyone attempting to march it the same way every time. Yet, the same can be said about the other way, if we have a lot of diags, being able to train yourself to replicate a perfect stepsize and also being to self adjust by having "checkpoints" such as when you cross yard lines, splits, etc. is going to give you a lot of success when you have straight lines moving in unison. I really think it just depends on what you are trying to achieve during each part of the show, and trying to decide which one is better is impossible, especially when there is nothing stopping a group from using both depending on the demands.

I marched my 8th through 12th grade year and it was always dots. However looking back I can say form has benefits as well. I'm wondering if anyone has ever tried a compound system of dots for rotations and grids but form on curved shapes to get the best of both worlds. It would be complicated for members but I feel like it would improve marching by taking the best of both systems and combining them.

Great video for the sake of discussion and, more importantly, education. As members, we tend to forget how much of a mystery these things are to the average fan. I also marched both, and i definitely like dot better. The amount of collective precision you can get from that incredibly individualist method is just fascinating. Also, i must share my favorite dot fact. You can calculate every step of your show if you have the time and sanity :)

@Bluntermocha

5 ай бұрын

I heard a story about SCV 2012 bass drums who did this. They calculated every single step as a dot. Shit is W I L D

@Bluntermocha

5 ай бұрын

Also shout out to UDB for doing that for you as well

The natural progression that I think most corps follow is that you aim for the Dot when you are learning the drill to build the muscle memory for the different step size for each set, and then you transition to Form as you become more comfortable with the drill because the Form is the only thing that's actually visible to the audience and judges and is what actually matters. Even then, individual responsibilities vary all the time during the show and there will be points where you are the anchor points of a Form and must hit the Dot exactly.

I like dot form hybrid (sometimes the steps being rounded make some forms look a bit worse so first dot then adjust to form)

I dunno how everyone who broaches these conversations hasn’t already figured out that it’s very rarely “what’s the best option” in marching band but more so “what option has the most pros for my program” For instance though I’m a dot guy I now have to work with a program that’s 25 people on a good day, we’re student lead and dues are cheap so we don’t have pyware money let alone commission drill money. Decision is made for us. We must utilize staging and form a as thats the option

Micheal Scout marches neither, actually.

@Oshan06

5 ай бұрын

can confirm

Dot to learn the drill, Form to clean while referring to dots to ensure consistency.

My Highschool marching band was mostly graders form was our only option 😅

I think dot is extremely powerful for learning sets but especially with the way computers can round off or approximate the positions it’s important to identify the form you’re trying to create and understand that it’s more important that whatever your coordinate says

So my high school marching band does dot or die until we know the show mostly then we go back to the beginning and focus on form. So we do both.

Colts went from dot or die to guide to the form and they saw scores go up quite a bit

For the form oriented style of the blue devils how do the designers actually arrive at the shapws on the field? Do the draw rhem out in paper? use soem sort of software? Or something else

In my opinion it depends on the level of the band. The absolute highest level marching bands should be able to do a mix of both in my opinion.

So I never actually marched drum corps so I have no reference for what form is like. Both of the marching bands I was with (high school and college) were dot or die all the way and I didn't really know there was another option. With that perspective, my immediate thought is I like the regularity of dot but I'd appreciate form more in practice runs since we'd be able to focus more on making the visual effective rather than getting bogged down in who's missing their dots.

Systems don’t matter. Consistency of instruction and high standards by the staff, as well as accountability and buy in from the members matters. Great teaching works with any well thought out system. -Cavs 12,14, BD 16,17

Having only marched dot or die (Cavaliers 01-04), I DONT understand how BD does it. I would really like to spend a summer with them and their visual staff just learning their process.

I would love to see you use Garfield for the form example. When I marched, Cavalier’86-‘90, I thought everyone but Garfield did dots.

@agogobell28

2 ай бұрын

Unfortunately I don’t think this guy has much knowledge of old school corps.

Give me both.

Heightened individual responsibility is NOT A CON!

@CJsMusicTrumpet

5 ай бұрын

From a member standpoint sure. From a tech position having an ensemble utilize guiding can sometimes be a crutch to hide the less accurate members. Which is why I put it as a con. It could have been a pro for Form but I figured it’d make more sense to attach it to the dot section because that is something that you sacrifice when choosing dot or die. Probably should have elaborated on it a little more though.

What other corps besides BD marches form? My preference is the Cavies drill, which is the star of the show. They always seemed to use drill to make those impressive memorable moments. BD seems to focus more on the feel and effect.

@CJsMusicTrumpet

5 ай бұрын

BD is the extreme case. Almost 0 dots. I’d say that when we talk about which corps uses the process of guiding to clean drill rather than a system focused only on dots then I’d say that almost every corps uses “form” for cleaning at least. Other than that most corps are going to have drill written by pyware.

My unsolicited unprofessional opinion: it should be both. More specifically: • when learning drill, the dot always wins. • when cleaning drill in short segments, dot wins…unless the drill staff says otherwise (which they should in the last 20-25% of the season) • full non-performance runs in the first part of the season should be dot-focused. After that, for performances and practice run-throughs, march to form. TLDR: march dots early season and during short segments; march form for performances and, eventually, for all drill as end of season approaches.

Dot or die seems preferable with inexperienced marchers and limited rehearsal time like high school. Form is superior where more experienced and knowledgeable performers are involved. It really dependes on the situation and whether you are initially teaching the drill vs fine tuning it. Style of drill can also impact it.

@CJsMusicTrumpet

4 ай бұрын

I somewhat disagree. As a concept it seems easier. But in reality I have found that many students have a lot of trouble reading a field properly, not to say they can’t. If the culture and idea of reading a field has been ingrained for multiple years it becomes a lot easier, but for many students staying between two people is simpler.

For the algorithm. ✊

Thanks so much, i'm from Colombia and here is so difficult found information about this concepts and fundaments. Can your tell me, where can I found more information about Dot or Die or Form and Guide marchings types, I'll appreciate a lot the infformation. Thanks.

Dot for learning and cleaning, to make sure that everyone understands where they're actually supposed to be on the field. Form for run throughs and performance to make errors less obvious - the judge does not get a copy of the drill to check your show against, so straight lines and smooth curves are more important than pinpoint x,y accuracy - with exceptions (such as column heads in a rotation) where specific individuals must march a dot so that everyone who is dressing to them has the right thing to dress to. This isn't difficult, it doesn't take a lot of thought to understand it or a lot of work to implement it, yet [REDACTED COLLEGE BAND I WAS IN] was so dead set against the idea of using dots even ONCE after the drill was set that I often wound up having to march sets with small movement distances in a direction backwards to what was written because the people that the form was supposed to dress to were THAT far off from where they were actually supposed to be on the field. Yet another one of the many reasons I didn't last to senior year in that ensemble

What if you can masters Both styles that would be dope

Having won marching titles with Phantom back in the late 70s and early 80's I can say form was best, yet as time passed and the Cavies designs became more and more complicated using the Dot form, I've found the Dot form more enjoyable to watch overall. Often being a pivot point to be exact I personally used Dot before it was ever called that, if that makes sense.

There are groups that just straight up don't use any kind of dot at all? I always thought it was dot for rehearsal that gradually moved to form for the platforms.

dots for angles. form for curves.

@jamiscoates5566

5 ай бұрын

right foot for pass thrus. center of body for holds.

@slindeman1

5 ай бұрын

Agreed. Why does it have to be one or the other? Just recognize that some sets will rely on everyone hitting their dots and others work best with everyone being aware of their dress points.

Can you possibility do a bent leg vs straight leg video at somepoint as well? Ive always wondered what the pros and cons of each style are

@CJsMusicTrumpet

5 ай бұрын

I have been thinking about doing something like that for sure. There’s so many different variations of how to do the technique but it would definitely be a fun subject to do a video on.

what would you say the bluecoats do?

I would argue that while Cavies won in 1995, they were not a dominate corps in the mid-late 90s.. that still belonged to BD.

no corps has ever put better drill on the field than the michael gaines era of the cavaliers, so dots or die is my favorite

A little biased here but dots all the way!

Do people even know the military style of marching band, like high schools in east texas for example NAMMB, Precision the program to write military drill? Or just people specifically in east texas?

@CJsMusicTrumpet

5 ай бұрын

Marching bands are very different culturally across the country even among high schools. You have pockets of Corps Style HS’s, Parade Bands, Military style, Halftime Show bands, and HBCU inspired bands. All under the marching band umbrella. It wouldn’t be uncommon for certain areas to have wildly different programs compared to even other schools in the same state.

Are wanting to be a visual instructor? You’d do very well.

95% dot, 5% form

Can we normalize using both form and dot depending on if its a rigid or nonrigid move? I feel like that would actually be a lot easier than trying to just deal with one or the other.

Wait so... this is a teaching philosophy, right? Y'all weren't doing sets without drill sheets, right? o.O Like I marched corps in 2006 and 2008, and basically breathed marching-music stuff between 2003-2012, and I've... never heard of anyone NOT treating drill any other way aside from "dot-or-die." It was always like, "If you hit your dots exactly then the form is going to be maintained by default. Sure you have to look around in your peripheral to make sure that the form is maintained while you're doing it, making constant micro-adjustments, but you're still supposed to focus on hitting your dots."

@CJsMusicTrumpet

5 ай бұрын

At Blue Devils we had no sheets. There were a handful of sets where you had an exact dot, but a lot of rehearsal was based on tape. Dot or Die is based on a philosophy where the only surroundings you pay attention to are the field. The idea is to perfect every step size and mid set. I would say guiding would be more aligned with form than dot, because dot or die is inherently based upon dots ONLY. The “hybrid” model most organizations use via guiding between dots puts focus on spotting other members rather than strictly field position.

Dot is better

Being in a military style marching band. Form marching is non existent…

form

@SwIsH189

5 ай бұрын

sko buffs. dots are better tho

@tryggviholt8958

4 ай бұрын

@@SwIsH189 ???????

DOT. DOT. DOT. DOT!!!!