"this port has the honor of being personally ruined by John Carmack" Very good line.

Now I wish there could have been a version of DOOM with an unhinged FMV plot surrounding it.

@danem2215

3 ай бұрын

That's just the 2005 movie.

@hossalvarado3838

2 ай бұрын

3DO was gonna have it at some point but was scrapped.

@Saxdude26

2 ай бұрын

​@@danem2215 Honestly to this day I feel the Doom movie has a lot in common with Doom 3, both in terms of aesthetic and the ever-present Mars base plot.

DAMN ALL OTHER ACTIVITIES THE FUNNY DOOM CREATURE JUST POSTED

"for crimes separate of this port" "Hell is in the center of Milton Keynes" 😂 never change David. As I took it up in the first quote, Heineman, contrary to Scott, can only deserve praise for one, how she handled the 3DO in ten weeks and two, had to deal with that devil of a CEO. Sadly the end product is suboptimal, but I probably couldn't make two rooms in UDB in ten weeks and she wrote an entire game basically. Still impressive to this day.

@jasonkyleadams7577

3 ай бұрын

The city skyline bug was part of the PC version too. If you play Doom 2 without stopping, the skybox doesn't change between the "City" levels and the "Hell" levels. Loading a "Hell" level saved game loads the correct skybox, but not sure if that is the same condition in the Saturn port David noted.

@DavidXNewton

3 ай бұрын

@@jasonkyleadams7577It’s similar, but the bugs are different - DOS Doom 2 just forgets to change the sky when the episode rolls over. Saturn Doom does change the sky, but changes it to the wrong one!

@DavidXNewton

3 ай бұрын

She’s an incredibly talented developer - I’ve spent my coding life in web and business software where having to move graphics around isn’t a concern, and I’m awed by what people achieved years ago with very limited hardware.

LOL at the joke about King's Quest and NASCAR both being about going around in circles 😂

I'm one of those people that grew up on Playstation doom before the PC version, so there's all kinds of interesting things that I had to learn/unlearn once I started understanding where Doom's history came from. Notably, it took me awhile to remember that '4' on the weapons list is NOT the super shotgun! I remember our entire family huddled around my brother playing the very slow and methodical and frightening ambience of the PS1 doom -- and then the sudden monster ambush left the whole room screaming. Those were some really, really fond days that I look back on with love.

These videos are fun. We spent DOOM's 30th anniversary last December playing the game across 12 different versions (9 official, 3 fan-made) on stream and hearing others thoughts on all these versions we recently checked out is a blast.

@DavidXNewton

3 ай бұрын

That sounds amazing :) I’ll have to take a look at your KZread copy of it!

You can easily overlook the misplaced sky in the Saturn's part of hell by simply assuming that you're in Detroit.

@KinkyGuy69

3 ай бұрын

lol

Something else worth pointing out that you didn't mention in your video: Both 3DO Doom and PSX Doom have backports that port the games to run on modern PC hardware, both by the same guy, Darragh Coy (intacowetrust). The 3DO backport is called Phoenix Doom, and the PSX backport is called PsyDoom. Both are well worth it if you just want to play the games with none of the hassles of emulation or framerate woes!

I spit-take laughed at the Milton Keynes joke. Excellently done.

I've been hanging around the channel as more of a fan of the off-Doom content but this so-far two part series has been a treat. Looking forward to part 3!

@Ifuckingdeletedthisacc

3 ай бұрын

I wanna see the GBA Versions.

As I grew up with Saturn Doom, it's a poor port, but if it weren't for that game, I wouldn't have fallen in love with this franchise.

@DavidXNewton

3 ай бұрын

Then I’m glad it was there :)

@Saxdude26

2 ай бұрын

You could even argue that as a gateway port, it offered you ample opportunity to also love the first game beyond the limitations of the Saturn port. Rayman 2 on DS did the same for me after I branched past the PSone version, so this is an experience I understand all too well.

Another awesome video. Ooof that saturn port on that E4M2 level. It's like how I played doom back in 1993

Saturn Doom was my first experience with Doom (and one of my first experiences with video games). Seeing it here, it looks nothing like I remember. It's funny how nostalgia fills in the blanks, specifically in this instance all those skipped frames.

@DavidXNewton

3 ай бұрын

Memories tend to be very kind to things :) It’s possible that it wasn’t as bad as you’re seeing, though - I’ve had people say the SNES and Jaguar versions look a lot faster when emulated than on real hardware, maybe the Saturn goes in the other direction…

I should check out the PS1 TC mod. I always loved Aubrey Hodges dark ambient music in Doom 64, so I want to hear it applied to the original Doom 1 and 2 levels to see how much it changes the atmosphere. I watched an interview with Rebecca once and hearing the story of the 3DO port’s development was wild. At first I was content to just view Randy Scott as “an incompetent boss who still had surprising musical talent,” but upon hearing WHY he was eventually arrested I went “oh dang, now I feel even more sorry for Rebecca for having to put up with that guy.”

@DavidXNewton

3 ай бұрын

Definitely, it’s not a good story D:

Oh god that ps1 demo disk music took me back. I haven't heard that in a long time

@Saxdude26

2 ай бұрын

It truly is impossible to forget a jam like that

Loved this video (and the previous one), so I look so much forward to part 3! I'm kinda surprised how good the PlayStation port looks, because I recall trying that, way back in the 90's, after having already fallen madly in love with the DOS game, and being very disappointed. I suppose that cliffhanger at the end was referring to Doom 64, which I'm REALLY excited to hear you talk about as it's just SO different from all the other ports 😃

I love the gun sounds of the PSX version, I always play Doom on PC with those sounds via a small wad patch.

@eduardoarielarruaprats2735

3 ай бұрын

Do you you have the name? Thanks

The reason why the 3DO's version worked so sluggishly is similar to how Adobe Flash/Animate generates some of its graphics. In Adobe Flash, some animations use a semi-static data container called a "symbol". For those who don't have the skill to animate every single frame, this "symbol" holds shapes, colors, and gradients together as a unit, and movements and distortions can be automated by the program, making for a better production experience. As one example, a symbol making up a character may be of an arm, or a foot, or an eye. Flash's original symbol distortions (circa 2000-2005) were limited to those of a square or parallelogram. (Scaling and parallel shearing) (You might already know about the following paragraph, David, but I'm including it for context.) Doom, in order to draw the walls of its environments, takes the wall textures, cuts it up into strips like streamer confetti, and adds or takes away pixels to create its perspective. That's not a problem because the textures are optimized into a basic form, and each wall is one unit. Doom does something different with its floors, more like a flood-fill algorithm. Apparently, the 3DO version of Doom does something similar to Flash's symbols, to prevent the certain graphical distortions that John Carmack wanted to avoid. At this point in tech history, hardware texture mapping was not quite good enough for complete 3D. As David said, we were stuck with "affine" transformation, which meant that in some fashion, either horizontal OR vertical pixels in parts of a texture stayed parallel. (Again, Flash's distortions are similar. As David also mentions, it's what gives the Playstation 1 their distinctive "warped" textures. I'm sure PS1 Doom does its rendering differently than that, though.) Doom's original DOS engine has no problem, it does its perspective calculations manually with software, not offloading it to hardware. For 3DO, though, to prevent this weird distortion from happening, it cuts up -EVERYTHING- the walls into distinct units/technically-polygons. Each vertical-pixel strip of wall -or horizontal-pixel strip of floor- (or in this case, strip of your viewing area) is its own unit. So basically, you have anywhere from 200 to even 1500 units all being controlled individually. *EDIT:* It seems I was wrong about the FLOOR being treated the same way as the WALLS. But still, there are still a *LOT* of wall units to consider when rendering the scene in 3DO Doom. *TL;DR* : Like the Playstation, the 3DO's texture perspective hardware wasn't perfect. To prevent unwanted distortion, 3DO Doom treats each *HEIGHT* of vertical wall pixels as its own self-contained unit. When you have many structures or distinct areas in a room, you can reach at least 1000 of those vertical units at one time, instead of maybe 1 rectangle, or 2 triangular-polygon, units for one large section of wall. Factor-in the calculations you need to properly resize the wall textures for perspective first, and then cut them into units, and you're now really bogging down the system. (Think of the sheer number of heights being like the slowdown that happens in Sonic 2/3/S&K's Debug mode when you lay rings all over the screen.)

@DavidXNewton

3 ай бұрын

Thank you for the in-depth explanation! I’d heard vaguely that it had to consider each column of the screen as a separate object, but what you said makes sense. Amazing what confines developers had to deal with in the mid-90s…

@Kazuo1G

3 ай бұрын

@@DavidXNewton Someone else looked at 3DO Doom and outlined how the rendering works, and the way that they described it was just like how Adobe Flash uses symbols. (Yes, you'll also find that I posted a similar simplified comment there 5 years ago too.): kzread.info/dash/bejne/eaOlm7yCeqnZk6g.html&ab_channel=Optimus6128 I would strongly suggest turning on captions, though, because his accent is very thick. As for transformation, I only understand the basics of it, not the math. Until recently, I never understood affine transformation ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affine_transformation#Image_transformation ) or how it related to texture mapping. ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texture_mapping#Affine_texture_mapping ) Apparently it's that perspective calculating doesn't exist in that method, just parallel lines, which shearing is a variation of; and for perspective, you need lines that converge/meet, not parallel. It's why you get that weird warping on systems that attempted texture mapping, like the SNES, Sega 32X, Sega Saturn, and PS1. Texture-mapped polygons made of triangles seem to be most affected. Squares/rectangles made of two triangles show it best. The two halves have differences in parallel shearing, especially on each frame, making that weird effect. It's also probably why some systems used quads. Nice ordered images that fit onto whatever square/rectangle it needed to be put on, albeit with some distortion on rectangles, which got worse for mismatched texture and polygon sizes.

@Kazuo1G

3 ай бұрын

@@DavidXNewton Also, according to that video, it seems I was only half-right. The 3DO doesn't do the same with the floor. But still, the point stands. To get the same lighting effects as the original, and prevent texture warping, every wall pixel column is considered its own unit, and that really bogs down the system.

On the issue of music between PSX and Saturn versions - I know PSX version doesn't stream in the audio, but rather generates it through essentially a tracker in real time. It's possible that the Saturn hardware just wasn't capable of that on the same scale.

@DavidXNewton

3 ай бұрын

That makes sense - if the Saturn was like the 3DO and didn’t have the time left over to process tracked music, it would have been stored as much more gigantic audio files

@Danfun360

3 ай бұрын

@@DavidXNewton That's pretty much it I believe. I don't know if the Saturn version wasn't capable of running samples per se, but IIRC PSX Doom's sampled music format was abandoned in favor of rendering the music as Red Book audio. That's why you have a smaller track selection.

Oh man, starting the video on the demo1 opening, specifically the theme UK and Australian 90s kids are probably the most familiar with, and indirectly the start of my console library at the tender age of 6. And what a strong start we get here on part 2, because the PlayStation's Doom (1 & 2) and Final Doom releases are often considered highly recommended solely for providing a multitude of content that (if I'm not mistaken) is only rivaled by the unending WAD potential on the various PC releases. Also, mad props to Rebecca Ann Heineman for making a 3DO port of Doom that was only hampered by the console running it lacking the grunt required to make it perform smoothly. Nothing but respect for you, Becky.

coming from milton keynes i can confirm hellgate is indeed in milton keynes

Dis dat good stuff. More please.

@DavidXNewton

3 ай бұрын

Thank you :) Part 3 is already available to Patreon patrons!

I've barely touched a gaming console in my life, but I'm still very interested in your port analysis videos. Really well-researched stuff, in my opinion. As a side note, Rebecca did some miracles with that 3DO port. I'm surprised she didn't replace John Romero's head with her employer's for this project...

@DavidXNewton

3 ай бұрын

Hah, that would have been appropriate :) I grew up with DOS as well, so I’ve only experienced the whole 90s console environment retroactively!

Neat, didn't know how good the Playstation port was. I knew it had more levels and put some Doom 2 enemies in earlier levels, but seeing how close it was to the PC version is nice. I still think the Jaguar port had the best layout, the controller was pretty clunky but at least its number pad allowed for all the weapons to be an easy press instead of having to toggle. The Doom II port to GBA is often overlooked. It has its own issues but is otherwise extremely solid, with no cuts to levels. The biggest change is it technically has 33 levels, as Industrial Zone is split into two maps.

Doom bunny has posted, my hype is immeasurable!

Hey sweet, part 2! And you covered ps1 doom lets go

I had been doomed since 93 on pc, my childhood friend had a PlayStation while I ended up with a 64 and he asked for tomb raider for a birthday or something. His parents, staring at a wall of video games couldn’t apparently write things down, and could only recall vague syllables and went with “doom”. It turned out amazing and lead to a summer of replaying that sucker on summer nights peering at a 200( felt like it to our tween selves) pound tv with glorious colored lighting filling his dark room. Ahhh nostalgia, psx was a great system from a warm time in my life. I miss swapping the controller in resident evil and yes, eventually tomb raider as well. Bringing my 64 and it’s gems over we had it all man….thanks for reading my story.

If I recall correctly, the reason the Saturn port would have initially struggled with rendering Doom is because it uses quadrilaterals with textures painted/distorted onto each one to render 3D models instead of triangles. This can be best seen on the Saturn port of Tomb Raider, where if the "distortion" is turned off, all of the textures from the environment just appear as squares moving around a black void. Or at least, I know that that's a thing it does (combined with my own admittedly hazy memory), whether that actually is the reason Saturn Doom it the way it is... I'm not a programmer.

Hell is indeed Milton Keynes.

There is a hack for the saturn version that adds the texture warping... It's a smooth 35fps like the dos version, even when alot of demons are on screen.

Great video you earn a subscriber 🤟🏿🤟🏿🤟🏿

Unless the other members of Randy Scott's band were as twisted and gross as him, I'd love to know more about how those guys re-recorded the Bobby Prince Doom compositions. There is some professionalism in the performance and mastering.

@DavidXNewton

3 ай бұрын

There really is! It sounds really polished, much more than you’d expect from a hobbyist in the mid-90s where we couldn’t have entire mixing studios packed into our computers.

@ArnieMcStranglehold

3 ай бұрын

and it was all supposedly recorded in a garage. It sounds pretty amazing and maybe "garage band" is the musical aesthetic Doom really needed.

16:20 The Saturn (and 3DO) version plays the music from CDDA tracks. The PSX version uses sequenced music on the SPU (excluding the Club Doom track) - I assume that porting it to utilise the Saturn's SCSP chip instead wasn't a priority

A bit on texture mapping: affine texture mapping doesn't take depth into effect resulting in the "swimming" at odd angles. It's inaccurate but the fastest texture mapping process. The Playstation corrected for this by dynamically subdividing 3D objects as they got closer to the camera. The Saturn used a quad renderer with forward mapping essentially giving you pixel perfect perspective correction but the calculations are offloaded to the CPU regardless of distance or angle which is incredibly inefficient.

Another enemy that was cut for Playstation Doom was the Nightmare Imp. Apparently there wasn't too much space on the disc but Nightmare Imp was later used in Doom 64

@sebastianaliandkulche

3 ай бұрын

???? Nightmare enemies doesnt fill the disc, lol, is just a flag to change the colour of the enemy and double health. You could change all of the enemies to be nightmare and it wouldnt affect FPS, space, etc.

@doom0666

3 ай бұрын

@@sebastianaliandkulche well you have to admit with the game having nearly all maps from Ultimate Doom and Doom 2, it is safe to say the Playstation can do mostly everything, there had to be something where the game had no room for the Nightmare Imp. I think with either Complete Edition or Master Edition for PC it adds Nightmare Imp back in. RHG 45 added Nightmare Imp to Fall of Triton which his his and Yikes Dude's GZDoom megawad

@sebastianaliandkulche

3 ай бұрын

@@doom0666 It was probably mostly an oversight though since there is also a single Cacodemon in the entire game with the spectre flag. Again, is just a colour. Like 3d models, flat and gourand shading colours arent managed via space. These arent textures or sprites, just colours that the GPU of the console had already integrated. Brown or black colours for the console GPU doesnt matter, the PS1 has true color support (or about 24 million colours i think). Is the same "rendering speed" as a regular sprite if you understand what i mean. Is not like it even had to load two different sprites on ram because the game only reads the original sprite and applies a simple color and transparency effect to it.

Dude! I had Doom on PSX (and PC but the doom port was my favorite way to play) and I would listen to that techno song on the CD sometimes and I had no idea there was a secret level that used that music haha I thought the song was just on the CD to fill out the disk 🤣

For those who want to know, the guy who made the 3DO soundtrack is/was on trial after being acused of "touching" children

@lyokianhitchhiker

3 ай бұрын

So shit made shit?

@DavidXNewton

3 ай бұрын

Yep :S Not the kind of person you want as a director… or anywhere near you

@CuppaKofe

2 ай бұрын

I hope he has many hellish levels to go through in prison 👏

The 3DS port I've seen is a homebrew source port built on PRBoom, and requires you to copy your WAD files into the SD card.

I love that John Carmack's most cancellable moment is how he over-managed the Saturn DOOM port.

@Saxdude26

27 күн бұрын

Jim Bagley: *Man, that's affine looking texture mapping...* Players: *WHY DOESN'T MINE LOOK LIKE THAT*

Love your commentary, and take on the DOOM ports, even though I have heard a hundred others. :D Very neat to see the potential of the 3DO version's potential. I had the Saturn version, but promptly sold it. 😂A shame Jim Bagley could not do the version he originally wanted. What I am looking forward to is the finished Slayer edition on the Jaguar. Also love your fursona, so cute. Love your custom HUD portrait. 😎

@DavidXNewton

3 ай бұрын

Thanks so much - it was a nice coincidence that I got so much into Doom with a rabbit avatar :)

It's neat to see a cool segment on the ps1 version of doom. It was my first doom, and i never played the pc version at all until 2021 For me, it's the pc version that feels weird to me.

@DavidXNewton

3 ай бұрын

I suppose it would, having this atmospheric scary game suddenly having a rocking soundtrack and fast action :) Like Harry Mason blasting his way through Silent Hill to a soundtrack of Motörhead

shame s60/ngage didn't have an offical doom release to include. on the other hand it ran perfectly on ngage before ngage released via the s60 port.

Ps1 doom has a very special place in my heart. Not because I grew up with ut, but because it's the second-most unique version. Only following Doom 64 which is pretty much it's own game.

@DavidXNewton

3 ай бұрын

Yes, those two are really good looks at slightly parallel-universe but still viable Doom versions :)

Here's a link to a video on 3DO Doom:- kzread.info/dash/bejne/q6x6k8Gwl5XKj7Q.htmlsi=z0qTxmUsjYREGmBT

A question, What emulator did you use to do the ARM multiplier on?

I thought David was going in a wildly different direction with the content when he says, "... these black demons..." 😂

I would take playability and good performance over pretty graphics any day of the week. I feel like you should do a different game series instead. How about Unreal Tournament? It's a great fps series, with Unreal Tournament 2004 being the greatest first person shooter of all-time.

There is another and probably the best total conversion of Playstation Doom which is PSX Doom CE. (Which I assume stands for Complete Edition) And there is Doom 64 CE which is by far the best version of Doom 64.

Saturn port certainly got very unlucky as John Carmack managed to ruin it. But that's graphics and FPS. There is more problems that the SEGA Saturn port has like button mapping to which I don't know whether it's Saturn being like that or some incompetence from the dev or a little bit of both. Shame the N64 port wasn't part of this video though I could tell it's more of a new Doom game for N64 rather than just N64 port. And Doom 64 was a good game. That's another score for NintenDO that SEGA don't.

Thanks for not pronouncing it "jag-wire", another video was driving me up the linguistic wall earlier.

Huh. I don't recall a port of Doom for Nintendo 64. I know there was _Doom 64_ which was basically another Classic Doom game (Hell I'd call it the *_true_* Doom 3) but not a standard port of Doom outside of a homebrew called 64Doom

@DavidXNewton

3 ай бұрын

Doom 64 will be the one that opens the next video (already available to all patrons)! :) It’s definitely much more than a “port” by any sane definition, but it was based on the Playstation’s Doom code so I chose to count it! Funnily enough I use that exact same wording when talking about it, that some people consider it the true third Doom game :)

What is the song at end credits? Your own? It's catchy

@DavidXNewton

3 ай бұрын

Thanks! Yes, it's from a song called Kill or Be Killed that I wrote for an Undertale-themed album a few years ago :) ambersun.bandcamp.com/track/kill-or-be-killed

@RallyMango11

3 ай бұрын

@@DavidXNewtonI did check the album, I really like what you have here!

The Saturn version just feels worse than the 3DO version, and looks like a poor PAL to NTSC conversion. (14:12)

666 likes, how fitting!

one could argue the playstation version of doom makes the pc original look "rinky dinky" in some aspects

@ArnieMcStranglehold

3 ай бұрын

In some ways, but growing up with SNES Doom and PC Doom at the same time, before PS1 doom, the cuts in the levels are highly noticeable. Not knowing when to expect Revenants or Pain Elementals in Doom 1 definitely added to the horror of the game, and the colored lighting highly boosted the atmosphere, but honestly they're different beasts. The stutter in the PS1 chaingun animation has always bothered me, too.

@sebastianaliandkulche

3 ай бұрын

I dont know what that means, but for me PC version feels like a parody of hell, while on PS1 it is like entering the real hell. Also weapons on PC feels like toys.

rabbet

PS1 port was my introduction to Doom and it pretty much defined Doom for me. Still prefer to play PC version though.

"Promosm"

I'm glad that Doom ports started to grow up once the Playstation era hit but god it still felt like they were too scared to leave the Jaguar comfort zone, the fuckin' cowards. Still, we got some gold out of it: PSX: This one felt like it was inspired by yet acted in DEFIANCE of the Jaguar port. It basically shows just how shit the Jaguar ultimately was in the end. Yes Atari we DID do the math and you and your fucking toilet wasn't anywhere NEAR up to snuff. Sure PSX Doom had its maps but unlike the Jaguar version and its miserably Carmack-friendly lazy POS nephew the GBA port of Doom 1, it at least tried to insert as much as it could in there because PSX discs were beefy and spacious as fuck. We got the Cyberdemon AND the Spider-mind AND almost all of Doom 2's monsters and levels! Eat shit, GBA. Although we didn't get the Arch-Vile. But some would say that's an acceptable loss because fuck that guy. Fitting most of Doom 2's maps and even Thy Flesh Consumed's stuff was impressive and a good showcase of the Playstation's abilities. The coloured lighting was a bonus. Although I feel like some of the Aubrey Hodges music starts to blur together after a point even if it makes Doom spoojy. I'll just take Bobby Prince and Lee Jackson ripping off Cannibal Corpse, thanks. 3DO: This one's on that dumbass Randy Scott's pie-in-the-sky dreams and his refusal to do some fucking research on consoles. Which sadly means he was simply acting as expected of a video game big wig and he'd thus fit in today. Bless Becky, she tried her best, its just Randy turned an uphill struggle into "Fuck you and climb the Burj Khalifa with your bare hands and you better fly like Superman up there". What is it with people named Randy being such fucking dipshits? Saturn: And this one I'm blaming on hyperintelligence who can see 50,000 lightyears into the future John Carmack. See, the devs of this port did the brilliant Saturn reinterpretation of PowerSlave that turned it into an FPS Metroidvania before Metroid Prime. Its the one the Exhumed remaster is based on. But Carmack seemed to fling his toys out of the pram because their engine had texture warping issues that weren't even a big deal. So we ended up with a version of PSX Doom crammed onto a console Sega kinda fucked over. People keep saying the Japanese version is smoother but that's been disproven heavily. Really I'd TAKE the texture warping if it meant that port was playable. At least Carmack apologized for it. But uhhh if he also was the reason the GBA port was the disappointing child of the family, can he apologize for that too?

I like your videos, but this one was kinda exhausting. Feels very much like a script dump. Between 2:00 and 2:40 you talk about music and sound redesign, but there is not a single pause in your speech for us to actually listen to any of it. And then its non-stop to lighting while my brain is still trying to catch a bit of audio. Even the music at 6:30 has problems getting through. Add pauses in your delivery and let DOOM speak for itself. Gives the viewer (or at least me!) a chance to digest what you said. There is no reason to rush through your script imo.

@DavidXNewton

3 ай бұрын

Agh, I wondered if that would come through - this video was recorded while waiting to hear back from a job interview (which I didn't get), and I definitely felt the pace of my speech speeding up again like in the old days ;) Being Scottish, I have to make a conscious effort to keep it under control

ps1 music is terrible. not a fan at all. but the rest of the game is pretty awesome. I picked up Final Doom a while back, but havent played the 1st PS1 Doom in a while.

bnuy