Public service announcement: there is just one counter to what you described as the strategic ambiguity of elves: scouting with spirit sight. Spirit sight reveals glamoured units in a scouting report. The simplest way to do this is with black servants. Very very few people know about this from what I can tell, but you can test it yourself and see the results. It does not reveal infiltration into your own lands, and so isn't any use against getting elfed, so that's still just something that if it's happening to you, it is already too late.

I took some notes while watching your video, here's what I think, in approximate chronological order: Vanarus' elves are most likely decended from the Helheim line, given their darker aspect and relative focus on death magic. MA/LA Vanheim kind of ignores death magic, so the theory is that the Hangadrottnir went to Rus and formed Vanarus. Although, please don't try ponyman thugging with a Vanabog - it's a slow to recruit, cap-only 400 gold mage. You can do better things with them, such as almost anything other than giving them a firebrand and vineshield. One of my favorite parts of your videos is how you keep a firm eye on the triad of "Tactically, operationally, and strategically." It makes for an interesting viewpoint on nations such as Mictlan, the tactical fliers, or Ulm, the strategic pseudoelves. Methods which pop glamour: 100% precision attacks, combustion(alt2), JAVELINS! Javelins are especially good because at short ranges, javelins can't help but hit. Those elven cavalry you were trying to bless aren't even sacred, by the by. The early age sacred is the Vanhere. Mounted elves called "Van" are only sacred in MA+, or if you're playing Helheim, where I think they're called Helhirding. Oh, and the hooves of elven cavalry aren't affected by +STR blesses. Just a random fact. Thunder weapons works fine, though. The thing that I can't believe you missed is the reason Mor'varch knights are not stealthy: It's because they ride goddamn fire-breathing demon horses. OK, maybe not [demon], but you get the picture. This is kind of a lore not, but I suspect elves don't use iron because of the whole "touch iron" thing to dispel glamours. Which makes me wonder if their horses are shod in bronze. #notallelves If you're playing Fomoria, you're A: not REALLY an elf nation, just a nation with elves. But in exchange for this, they get to sidestep some of the issues that most elves have: Fir bolg are quite good human infantry, especially if you can fix their protection problem, and their teleporting supercombatants/thugs are excellent. I feel like your assertion that you need to choose one of either stealth and raiding vs doomstacking is not particularly accurate. By the mid to lategame as most nations, you'll be using a mixture of different units anyway - if we take Vanheim as an example, you'd be looking at corpse constructs, storm demons, and other blood summons. And the wild majority of summons don't have stealth, let alone glamour. There's nothing keeping you from elfing a specific province, then moving in your "siege stack" as a defensive movement bait-and-switch. Part of the reason that elves are so stupid good is because of their reliance on air magic. Air magic is armor negating and scales all the way into endgame because it ignores armor, stuns people, and the only ways to get resistance to it are gear, 5 for thunder ward, a bless, or claiming certain thrones. Compare that to Fire magic. Not to focus too hard on Vanheim, but it can mitigate its siege weakness by way of Wall Shakers and Gate Cleavers. Helheim can do the same, while Tir na Nog can only focus on Wall Shakers. Tir na Nog's Sidhe Lords are slightly better thugs than Vanjarls because they can cast buffs like elemental resistance or poison resistance. In today's meta of Foul Vapors Everything, that's pretty big. Wannabe elves require higher numbers of units to elf someone, but do they require larger amounts of cash to do the same amount of elfing? Finally, the meta-commentary. I'm very flattered that you used one of my ideas! And as has been said before, your strength both as a person to watch and a Dominions player is that you tend to value things differently than the typical meta does(Trade, Hatun Runa, diplomacy to a lesser extent etc.) and I believe that you may know better than the meta, or at least your playstyle is comparable in effectiveness to the meta. This makes it hard to recommend what you should do a video on, because my request is "Make videos on things you believe people underrate or overrate", and that's hardly a specific request! I guess I'd also like to see EA Ulm, since it's pretty much universally considered one of the weaker nations in the game. I don't know that I could take it to turn 60 without getting eaten. P.S one common bless for elves is dormant or awake fire-shock-resistance-from-earth barkskin shock resistance from air. Limits friendly lightning and reduces the effectiveness of fire eles while giving Ulm-tier prot.

@Petterwass

5 жыл бұрын

Dominion elves are basically a combination of the norse Alfar and the Fae which probably is why they don't/can't use iron equipment, preferring bronze and gold

@PerunAU

5 жыл бұрын

Love this kind of reply: I think you have a point on the source of the Vanir that settled in Rus, they certainly have a feel of Helheim about them. Perhaps the old traditions survived there, while those of Helheim were subsumed and overwritten by Vanheim following the great wars. Javalins are great glamour poppers. Bonus points if you're LA Atlantis and you use harpoons which also net the target, which also negates that high defence stat just long enough for the infantry to shove an ice spear into position. I generally just like AoE evocations though. Funnily enough, the AoE workaround means that I imagine Morvarchs would do plenty well in a fight with the Vanir, especially since they bring greater protection to the fight as well. The unblessed hirdman issue was a product of switching to this video directly from an LA game where i've been fighting LA Midgard, including the blessed Vans. The fact that in EA they are so common as to not be sacred (and that the vanir fight as infantry!) is a bit of a change of pace. I had thought the Mor'varchs might owe their lack of stealth to their mounts, but then i wondered why normal 'fey' horses would be any different. The Vanir do a fine job of concealing their horses normally, why not the fire breathing demon kind? You have a point on Fomoria, and when reviewed at a national level, they're really a hybrid pick. They have features of both a giant nation, and an elven nation, with some of the weaknesses on both being covered well. The Nemidians are a fantastic augment to the giants and fir bolg, and the fact that the race is driven extinct is a testament to how diminished they must already be going into the EA, and how brutal the onslaught of the Tuatha, and then of the Logrians and Milesians must have been. On your later points, how the force evolves to take into account late game magic and items, I guess the reason I didn't want to be drawn on those was because each nation has a different approach, and because those techniques are somewhat 'generic' as opposed to being elf specific. A late game elven nation is basically the elves, but with increasingly diverse and numerous other bits 'bolted on' in the form of summons, indies, and other tools. Those are absolutely vital, but beyond the narrow scope I was trying to work to here. If I do a nation analysis, expect those tools to be front and centre. Gate cleavers and wall shakers are there, they are solutions, but the point I was getting at was not that these nations are incapable of sieging, it's that they're "comparatively worse" at it that other nations. Compare elves to the stars of sieges (birds, agarthans, undead swarms) and you'll quickly see that the siege superpowers don't need to expend gems or build separate stacks to break fortifications, they just break them by virtue of bringing units they'd bring anyway. An elven force capable of easily slaughtering a garrison, may need support troops they wouldn't otherwise need (for field battles) or gem costed items to break into a fort. That's a comparative disadvantage, and it forces elves to pay a tax, at least hypothetically, in gold, gems, or time if they want to siege like the rest. Wannabe elves are decent enough at elfing people, but they can't usually do it with single cheap thugs. Groups of 20-40 infantry work though, and can be assembled cheaply enough, though some attrition is inevitable. Thanks so much for all of the kind words and the contribution. I really do appreciate them and if i do a nation study on any elf nation, I'll be sure to give them a feature. I'll give some thought to my next topic, there are a few that could be good to look at while I wait for my games to advance enough to post on.

I will point out Tolkiens Elves also had a reputation for being an absolute pain to deal with :P

@PerunAU

5 жыл бұрын

Very true, though they were a bit shorter on the blood magic. What I was getting at, but which i didn't touch on explicitly in the video, is that elves in dominions are distinctly melee combatants. Their weakness is in the ranged duel, and they barely ever touch ranged weapons outside of javalins. They are at their best when they are up close and personal with the enemy. Tolkien's elves were certainly no slouches there, but it's fair to say the public image of them is one of peerless archers, not beserking infantry or cavalry lawnmowers.

About thugs, those with A2 can cloud trapeze. This adds a lot of flexibility in MP game. First you get even more elving power. Second you have the tools to very effective counter raids, as you can destroy a vulnerable ennemy stack just by sending the right thug(s) in there. As is, one of my favourite tactic was to have a variety of items in my item treasure and when necessary, custom equip a thug and send him to destroy a party on which I had full scout information thanks to a recent battle report. Given this is a magical phase attack, the ennemy stack usually has no way to survive. As you pointed out, the fact that you can hide after such an attack is invaluable : you always have the initiative and the ennemy can't react. You are usually the one who choses which battles are fought and which are not and with the cloud trapeze you can trigger instant battles without having to guess where the ennemy army would move.

Elf nations should not have any problems with siges past the early game, all they need to do is turning some of their air income into great eagles, which is one of the best units in the game for siges (16.5 sige power each if I remember right and very high mobility). Great eagles isen't stealthy of course, but they are so mobile that they dont really need to be. Just make sure that they dont fight in battles (make them bodyguards of spell casters if they need to be in a battle) as they die surprisingly easily.

@PerunAU

5 жыл бұрын

I wasn't really including generic solutions like this in my frame of reference for analysis, but it's a good point. I meant more to compare elven armies to, say, pale ones, or cheap human armies in the siege department before that stuff comes into play. Using birds to break forts is both a brutally effective tactic and I think a time honored tradition in Dom. Lord knows I enjoyed it as Nazca, especially pre condor nerf.

I was always puzzled about what you meant by "Elf-ing". This was enlightening.

I imagine every time your thug elf takes down a raiding party the dwarf smith will say "That still only counts as one!"

I must say I am a fan of the elves. I like ambiguity and mindgames and posturing and uncertainty (and I dislike naps) and elves just really play into that. Also there are a lot of elves in EA which is my favourite era anyway. Perfect match. I'm of the opinion that a non-glamor army for sieging is worth the cost for faster sieges and more efficient big battles. If your enemies see you fighting someone they already know that you can't have huge forces next to them and it can stll be enough elves for a guerillia war. Also the visible army doesn't have to participate in the initial strike, you can have it sit 2 or 3 provinces away and then come in later which should preserves the surprise pretty well. (In later game/bigger maps might be more than 1 such army of course.)

Two things just from my viewing of GC and Lucid is 1. Morvarchs are stealthy and/or invisible on the strategic map, glamour might grant stealth, I don't know the interplay of mechanics there, 2. Illwinter changed battlefield enchants, maybe specifically foul vapors and maybe others, to no longer pop glamour from everything on damage.

@PerunAU

5 жыл бұрын

I checked the morvarchs. They are glamoured, but not stealthy. That means they're invisible on the map (a function of glamour) but can't sneak and infiltrate (a function of stealth) meaning that they can't 'elf' people in the traditional manner. Good to know about battlefield enchants. That said, if you have FV up and the Vanir aren't resistant to it, they're all probably going to die anyway. My understanding of that interaction may be outdated, as it comes from my Singleplayer days in Dominions 4.

@wadeperry4294

5 жыл бұрын

I really do think you're thoughts on EA Ulm would not go amiss since you tend to have a different perspective on how to play and on how to conduct a nation in a broad set of circumstances.

Great vid!

Raiding is a confusing term to use since in-game it can also mean pillaging remotely, but yeah, this game needs a lot of terms. Thank you for the overview!

These are, if I remember, technically refered to as Van in game. Kinda hilarious, to be honest. The Irish fae (sans Sidhe and Fomorians) and Norse Vaneir are lumped into one race.

So, what was the end result of the game where you elfed so beautifully? Also, MA Vanheim is the elf nation I can never seem to find good LPs or guides for, and I'm playing them soon, if you needed an idea for a nation to cover next. :

@PerunAU

4 жыл бұрын

it just finished at turn 86. i think ill post somthing on it when i get the chance. tossing up between doing like a rapid series ( 12 turn lapses per episode) or just doing a retrospective at the end. will definitely consider doing vanheim

@smonkey001

4 жыл бұрын

I see this dom 3 Helheim guide the father or elf guide really forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=41801

It makes me mad that an 'elf-ish' nation is called Man.

Oh this sneak attack xD Btw this infiltration count against NAP, am i right?

Irish spelling is weird. Because of this Tuatha is pronounced more like tway hay to my understanding.

@iiroaro808

4 жыл бұрын

Think the Tuatha are based on the Tuatha Dé Danann of Irish myth. If that's the case, here's how "Tuatha" would be pronounced in the three main Irish dialects (Munster, Connacht, Ulster). forvo.com/word/tuatha_d%C3%A9_danann/#ga

15:24 Stealth attack 'Attack current province' counts as a move order. I see absolutely no reason why it would mess with the turn sequence and catch units that would otherwise move away.

@PerunAU

5 жыл бұрын

so is this somthing that has changed from Dominions 3/4? combining stealth attackers with ritual attackers in the same fights was a feature of a number of the old guides. i should test to see if this has changed and the persistence of the idea has moved into "common wisdom that isnt wise" category

@MRProgressor

5 жыл бұрын

@@PerunAU I haven't tested it, but looked at the turn sequence in the manual. It might be something the manual is sloppy about.

@james82257

4 жыл бұрын

@@PerunAU I remember lucid having this conversation on one of his videos (the oni game I think), he said (iirc) that if a stealthy party tries to move away they are still vulnerable to a teleport ambush but if you just stealth and wait the teleporter goes onto the same province but can't hit your stealthy guys, which can then move away on attacks or stealthy movement