Thanks. Sounds like replacing the heat exchanger is more crucial than the intercooler itself. Makes sense considering Dinan sells only a heat exchanger rather than an intercooler.

After watching ChrisFix and kies Motorsport now I am 100% confident on working on a BMW

@unignostik

3 жыл бұрын

For 99% of it, its no different from any other vehicle. Just seems like it should be lol

I've done a lot of testing with different types of Top Mount Inter Cooler (TMIC) on my Subaru's (before I started playing with ///M's). The problem with about every after market intercooler (air to air and air to liquid) is 1) they are much heavier than oem and 2) their flow characteristics are always worse at either the outside air(liquid) or inside air side of things. The heavier weight causes heat soak effects to be much longere, once heated up (which always remains no matter what topmount you put in there) the heavier IC will soak much more heat/energy, which takes longer to diperse. The lower flow characteristics are typically not noticed because the change of the IC is often paired with another tune, but if you measure your delta P over the IC (which I did with a lot of top mounted IC's with the Subaru's) you will notice you're actually having to increase your turbo pressure a bit to allow for the same MAP. I once invested in a terribly expensive core with custom end tanks (from the UK), it was feather light and had beautiful internal and external flow characteristics, and that TMIC did heat soak a lot shorter then standard (although in a Subaru the TMIC being straight above the turbo/downpipe it was still soaking at the traffic lights for example), but if soaked it was a matter of seconds to get rid of the excessive temps, half the time then the standard TMIC and up to 1/10th of the time of aftermarket TMIC's. It allowed more boost in the manifold and lower intake temps at the same turbo boost, more timing, you know the tricks. It was not a lot of power gained, talking in the 360ish regions in stead of standard stage 3 350ish, but measurable and very noticeable positive differences especially when being at drifting events, where Subaru's seem to be suffering due to the diagonally and reduced flow of cooling air over your TMIC. Your channel is very informative and me being a techhead and petrolhead at the same time, I am enjoying your vids a lot. Keep up the good work.

@idhammunirmohd1029

3 жыл бұрын

This is informative! 👍

@PunjabiBoi37

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for this breakdown! It makes sense as to why the OEMs also choose the "lighter" route, up until it meets their budget constraints

Ouch csf didn't expect that at all

@raygotz1069

3 жыл бұрын

Guess they can go sell that snake oil somewhere else LOL

The front heat exchanger is what gets the heat out, you’re are just putting larger radiator which explains the heat soak.

Thank you for your honesty and for testing everything so extensively 👍👍👍

Here is the article from Dinan on why the heat exchanger matters more than the intercooler: “Some may ask why change the heat exchanger and not the intercooler itself? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to go directly to the source of the charge air? The simple answer is yes, but at a cost. The stock system cools the intake charge by using a water-to-air intercooler, an expensive piece to engineer. The cooling circuit for the water that feeds the intercooler uses a primary cooler (heat exchanger) and a smaller secondary cooler in front of the passenger side wheel. Through rigorous testing of all 3 of those components and multiple combinations therein, it was discovered that the most effective performance per dollar solution was replacing the heat exchanger with a larger unit.”

@WholesaleTurbos

2 жыл бұрын

a long time ago we used to work on the RS liberty which the wrx was based on. We did a larger, more efficient heat exchanger and a pump upgrade. Cars with more mods we just put a FMIC on.

Thanks for testing this IC for all of our benefit.

Thank you so much for this informative video! Love the csf cooling products! Once I become competent at the track, I will upgrade to the CSF ones!

Solid video as always bro! Yeah its designed to keep things cooler in there, not a power mod. Surprisingly power and trq took a hit, but if the heatsoak demons are kept at bay, its all worth it!

I would replace it just to prevent the leaking issue with the stock intercooler. Besides that I don't see any reason to replace.

No comments? Great video as always Bryan!

Just watched this video from Kies Motorsports, and personally I thought it was a great video - I have no problems with the majority of the methodology used during the testing, and we're not shying away from the results. (If it's too long to read the entire post, please make sure to read the claim in BOLD towards the bottom about pump duty cycle manipulation). I felt it would be best, for me as the owner of CSF, to come on here now to lend some feedback against some of the comments that have been posted already in this thread + help to share some knowledge about cooling system performance, specifically about bar/plate vs. tube/fin technology (pros/cons) + more information about air/water charge cooling, and the features & benefits of using the CSF upgraded S55 engine charge cooler. Opinion of the testing results I believe Bryan from Kies was honest and transparent about the results he achieved during his testing. He also stated from the very beginning of the video what he thought his expectations would be: in the same range as the OEM cooler (slightly higher / slightly lower /or about the same) - the results: -9hp/-6tq (-2%HP / -1.2%Tq) - To me this is slightly lower or about the same as the OEM system. (The only aspect of this specific test which I wish could be controlled better, no fault to Kies, is the time of the day that the testing was done. The OEM cooler testing was done earlier in the day, and the CSF testing was done later in the day. Air density is higher earlier in the day when it is cooler, and this typically effect the results of the test to some degree) - In no way am I using this an excuse, but lending some knowledge for the benefit of the conversation - Air density variation during dyno testing and tuning can have a big impact on results.) REVIEW OF TESTING - 1st pull - CSF cooler made +2HP / +5tq - The trend of the OEM cooler, from just 3 dyno pulls, was a gradual decrease in both hp and tq vs. the CSF which decreased, then increased into a consistent range. This is the intended function of the cooler, and why so many road race / track users purchase our product and are very satisfied with the results. Over an extended period of hard driving, the OEM cooler performance will continue to lose power and the car will start to become sluggish vs. the CSF which will maintain consistent power delivery, and has been proven at the 25 Hours of ThunderHill Endurance race. No loss of power, and consistent IAT's CLAIMS MADE BY CSF 1) CSF has never made a claim of power increase for the charge cooler alone - it's not listed on our website. 2) For maximum cooling benefit, a high performance heat exchanger should also be installed. In an air/water system, it's the water from the front mount heat exchanger that is doing the heat transfer of the cooling in the sealed charge cooler. CSF's performance heat exchanger has more fluid capacity, a higher efficiency core, and uses a CSF exclusive "B-Tube" that can recover from heat soak faster than the OEM radiator tube (Kies also says this in his video at the beginning at 0:47) 3) The very 1st car that CSF ever tested our charge cooler on was the Yost Autosport F80 M3 in 2016 . 4) Our goal with developing the CSF complete 3-piece cooling package for the S55 engine was to be able to help on the track. Maintaining consistent Intake Air Temperatures (IAT's) and engine power in demanding racing conditions over prolonged use was the goal of developing our cooling system, and countless 3rd party / independent results have proven this goal time and time again. (Kies also says this in his video in the beginning at 1:15) Why you should consider buying CSF's upgraded S55 charge cooler 1) Reliability and durability compared to the OEM design of tube/fine core crimped to plastic end tanks - the OEM coolers are notorious for failing. I have several friends who are dealer technicians at BMW, and the amount of charge coolers they tell me they replace under warranty is very surprising. Keep in mind that many of these replacements are happing 6 months to 5 years from new. The failure rates will only start to increase as the vehicles age, and more modifications, especially increases in horsepower, are applied to these vehicles. From speaking to my contacts who are techs both at the dealer, and at independent BMW repair centers, I would conservatively say that the failure rate is ~1-3% of S55 engine cars. CSF's charge cooler comes with a life-time warranty. You don't want to risk having water enter your engine, possibly damaging it. 2) Maintaining consistent Intake Air Temperatures (IAT's) and engine power in demanding racing conditions over prolonged use. 3) Aesthetically more pleasing than the OEM cooler, with the ability to order a custom color to match any theme you're going for. Also CSF's finishing is by far the best out of all aftermarket options: Best welding, only company to use a bolt on front/back water plate system for a cleaner look, and the best powder-coating out of all options as we actually disassemble them at our facility in California, do an additional QC inspection on them, then send them out to get sand blasted and powder-coated by one of the bets powder-coating companies in Southern California. We then again QC inspect them before reassembly and final packaging. PROVEN PERFORMANCE - CSF has never put out our own performance data on any of our products because we prefer to only showcase 3rd party validated results. This is a huge reason why CSF is a premier cooling company and a leader in BMW performance cooling. Championship winning results with proven data and testimonials from people who are actually using the products. - Highest horsepower S55 engine in the world - by Cedar Performance (Dallas, TX) - over 1000hp on the dyno - using a CSF full cooling package. (Heat exchanger + charge cooler + DCT Cooler) - - Fastest F80m3 / S55 engine car in the 1/2 mile - by BMW of San Rafael using a CSF full cooling package. (Heat exchanger + charge cooler + DCT Cooler) - Top 3 Fastest S55 Engine car around the Nurburgring: - We're actually working with www.rent4ring.de/en/ and Speedhunters to go for the record for fastest S55 car around the ring in their M2 Competition. We also work with RSR Nurburg, who rents vehicles at the track, to cool all of their S55 cars to help prevent heat soak and maintain a consistent driving experience when used on the track for prolonged periods of time

@BMWDIYGuy

3 жыл бұрын

Excellent response CSF, well done.. much respect!

You’re making me miss my F80 M3! 😩

Another great video with great content. I am planning to get the Mishimoto or CSF heat exchanger, but not the inter cooler unit you just tested. A friend of mine at BMW told me the OEM unit is over engineered. You video proved my assumptions. Thanks for the content.

@diditiu3988

2 ай бұрын

what do you mean by over engineered?

Not surprised. People have been asking CSF for logs for years - and they've never provided a single one. Stick with the stocker (if it's not leaking that is haha)

Awesome 🏆🏆

Thanks for the information, saved me a few hundred dollars here🤣🤣🤣🤣

I had a local performance shop install a CSF Heat Exchanger on my 2017 M240i XDrive. Now with my AC on max cold, it feels like exterior vent air is running. What do you think the problem is?

Good on you for sharing the data (good and bad) It would be interesting if you logged iat on these. No manufacturers for charge cooler updates seem to bother to share any actual data. I suspect because they do nothing! I'd keep stock charge cooler myself and then upgrade the front mount charge cooler if anything. Oem bmw set up isn pretty good TBH

Is there a learning curve to the ecm to adapt to a slightly different air flow?

Is there any possibility of you doing a differential bushing replacement??

I foresee the loss of horsepower due to a possible increase in air flow resistance and restriction through the new air cooler. Just because it is slightly bigger volume wise does not in anyway insure that the air flow though it is smoother or less restrictive then the stock cooler. I'm sure if you took the air cooler out of they system quite briefly and bypassed it, you would have a noticeable increase in immediate horsepower, knowing that overheated air input would bring down the power shortly thereafter.

Subscribed.

I don’t understand the benefit of this still, it seems to have heat soaked still

@joelsilvarodrigues

3 жыл бұрын

The stock one tends to leak

@Tangent360

3 жыл бұрын

Unless you also replace the front heat exchanger part of the system it's really just a durability upgrade since the stock one sometimes leaks.

What about CSF coolers on S63tu engines? Do they suffer from the same issues too?

Do the b58 heat exchanger next!

Do they make these in multiple colors?

Would my 2015 s55 need a heat exchanger if it has a csf cooler?

Does the same happen with f30 spacers?

That is interesting

First! How do you feel about the new M3/M4 that was revealed?Is there any products for the G30 that Kies motorsports is making or is planning to make?

Thanks for the honest video, I'll be interested in a heat soak endurance comparison with the charge cooler. I'd imagine it'd be a big help with the BM3 stage 1. Does the same stuff fit on an M2C?

@BEAR_S55

3 жыл бұрын

Same engine and layout so I’m sure it does

Thanks for this not manipulated video its results are worse are worse.. stock charge are fine! Only leaks..

Hi Keys team, do you deliver to the UK?

Interesting video! It seems the CSF cooler is has much better build quality though and the OEM units are known to crack internally

Would be nice if you logged the IATs.

I think to really get the full potential of the bolt ons .you have to tune the car

Well. It’s red at least!

The weekly dyno’d car lol

I will remove the charge air cooler and expect some solid gains!

@HybridBoy0

3 жыл бұрын

as if removing the air to water component at the engine bay and move to a more "standard" air to air intercooler? i always wondered what would be the results. i feel like BMW kind of over engineered the intercooler system here.

@lilhotdog7011

Жыл бұрын

Aye! What’s up Tommy!

My M140i has a charge cooler !

Heat exchanger shows the only real change to intake temps.

It will probably only benefit when you are pushing a lot more power !

No No No I would not touch bmw’s cooling system it’s designed perfectly from factory whether it’s hot or cold

@2be1withU

3 жыл бұрын

Do you mean a modern BMW? I have an E46 M3 and it definitely has cooling issue on the track that I have to go with aftermarket radiator and hood vent to decrease the temp by around 15-20 F.

@diditiu3988

2 ай бұрын

even if my M2 Competition produces around 550 horsepower and 650 NM of torque?

Will this work with the other colors too or just ferrari red?😂

Which map?

No one ever talks about Wagner or forge motorsports aircharge coolers🤔🤔🤔🤔

@sebastienmarquet8686

3 жыл бұрын

Indeed Wagner intercooler are amazing, each unit is checked with airflow to check pressure drop at the intercooler exit. Tube and fin intercooler are their best!

Well this new air and water cooled Intercooler will infact show a drop in power if you put in dyno because no dyno can give the amount of air which you can drive on open roads normal they work very good on road until you a wind tunnel dyno that is impossible

Is the car tuned? It’s making a lot more torque than advertised.

@atarvhegde5210

3 жыл бұрын

Yes it is. I think it has also got a stage one tune.

@atarvhegde5210

3 жыл бұрын

Even when the car was stock it made 420 bhp at the wheels which is about 465 at the crank

Even if the accountants at BMW only gave the engineers little head room for research, design and packaging it's foolish to think said BMW engineers would be out performed so easily. CSF is great company and I'm sure this would have performed better with the heat exchanger installed as a proper package. Only speaking for myself, the lesson as a consumer with limited resources, most of the time I'm spending my money on the wrong things.

BRYAN, I'M GOING TO END UP SELLING MY 340i BEFORE YOU EVER MAKE THE F30 SPACERS VIDEO!! YOU'RE KILLIN ME DUDE!! PLEASE MAKE THE F30 SPACERS VIDEO!!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE 🙏

That was surprising, I expected the car to make consistent power with CSF better than the oem.

Put 335i on the dyno

I know what not to get !

First, this was definitely meant to be uploaded at 12pm and not 12am haha

First. Finally 😎

Statistically speaking if you want to get over all numbers you have to do an average of 30 runs. But it’s not practical.

So the $2000 CSF cooler is worse than the $700 OEM unit? 😂

So this was supposed to reduce heat soake caused hp loss but it actually made it worst😂😂

Great video by Kies Motorsports: You can read our full response to this video at: f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?p=26730572

Poor results team ?

In that case I’ll save myself 1k ....... looks pretty but other than that it’s useless