"The darkest day. The blackest hour. Chin up, shoulders back. Let's see what we're made of, you and I." This review has been 6 years in the making. So let's celebrate that persistence. Be sure to hit that "like" button and also leave any comment down below to appease the almighty algorithm!

@isabelh5561

3 жыл бұрын

At around 19:50 if I remember correctly those two guards aren’t real. They were projections as evidenced from the fact they both vanished in one device touch once she leaves her shackles. That’s how I view that at least 😊

@isabelh5561

3 жыл бұрын

Also at 23:30, I concede immediately that this is purely my interpretation of events and not what is in the script. That said, I don’t think it is that out of character for the Doctor to oppose switching on an inhibitor since it effectively means completing the Cyber-conversion process. The Doctor prefers to live in hope that conversion can be reversed, Davison’s doctor even stated in Spare Parts that he would rather lose all his regenerations than face eternity as a Cyberman. Therefore, agreeing to turn on the inhibitor would be hugely out of character for him since the Doctor views Cyber-conversion as a process worse than multiple deaths. I’m curious what you think of this interpretation, even if Moffat couldn’t be bothered to put in the legwork for this kind of explanation in-universe. 🙂

@bigredsock1

3 жыл бұрын

Stop sitting on the fence! Did you like this story or not?

@zoewells3160

2 жыл бұрын

Oh, follow-up to my earlier comment, did some more skipping around and I have some more to say; - Yes it IS a con, in that it isn't the "natural" afterlife. Missy created it. It's fake. It's not where everyone goes after death by default. - What's wrong with a writer re-using ideas? Seriously, what is wrong with that? Just to use Doctor Who examples, Spearhead from Space was largely based on the 1965 film Invasion, which Robert Holmes wrote the plot for, and Robert Shearman uses the same setting of "world where genre cliches are literal laws of nature" in two seperate Doctor Who stories; The Holy Terror and The Chimes of Midnight (also Punchline if you count unlicensed stories). And Holmes and Shearman are two of the most well-regarded Doctor Who writers! - In the Forest of the Night isn't saying you shouldn't take medication for anything, it's about how we over-medicate people rather than trying to understand them and the actual causes of their affliction. Which is true. I don't even like that story much but it is not saying that. Right, that's probably it. I'm done skipping though now.

Still sad that Capaldi’s last words as the Doctor weren’t “FUCKITY BYE!”

@BH-98

3 жыл бұрын

Maybe they were his last words to Steven Moffat

@paulflint6254

2 жыл бұрын

@@BH-98 😂 i believe it was

@redjirachi1

Жыл бұрын

That cut has to exist somewhere

He's not affected by the conditioning, because he doesn't get a chance to delete his emotions, which we see at the end of the first part.

@rog2224

3 жыл бұрын

I think that might involve paying a little more attention than was given.

@HazarTulum

3 жыл бұрын

Aah, so every single Cyberman (at least in this story) chose to get their emotions removed, but Danny Pink was the only one who didn't because... reasons? Theres no other person at that point in time that didn't choose to remove their emotions? Oh, except the Cyber-Brig ofc -_-

@llewelynshingler2173

3 жыл бұрын

@@HazarTulum If you're going to be like that, then let's ask this: Why offer an option? Missy isn't the sort to justify her actions with moralistic philosophies.

@skeeter2420

3 жыл бұрын

@@HazarTulum well we aren't shown any other than Danny and the brig but it doesn't mean they weren't out there. Sure it's convenient for the sake of interactions between the main characters that Danny is the only emotional one in the graveyard but it's not as ridiculous as him being the only one in the world (that said, not explaining this openly is flawed writing).

@russelltietjen4407

3 жыл бұрын

All it showed was him hovering over the button. It never acknowledges whether he pressed it or not and whether that would influence the conversion of he didn't. It would also beg the question of why bother converting him physically, if he didn't consent to the mental conditioning? Surely they could just decide not to convert him or just go the full 10 miles anyway

At least we have the brilliant World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls tomorrow to make up for this.

@BritishBriggsy

3 жыл бұрын

Such a letdown we don't get Christmas specials anymore. Had The Doctor Falls ended with a regeneration I think I would have really loved it!! :)

@scl1332

3 жыл бұрын

The brilliant World Enough and Time and the meh Doctor Falls

@josha5933

3 жыл бұрын

And then timeless children as the last review?? Oh boy...

I dunno man, I think in regard to the whole "it's a racket" I think the implication is that this afterlife is something Missy manufactured and that the link between consciousness and the physical dead carcas was a clause within that. So the real untampered afterlife remains ambiguous. There's a lot of disconnect and loose ends in this story but honestly, I found it was at least a satisfying one with a good sense of momentum (which is more than can be said for many Moffat finales). It's quite a macabre story and I get that this would rub folks up the wrong way but honestly, I appreciated that Doctor Who genuinely went dark with this one.

@ItsButterBean1020

2 жыл бұрын

Holy mackerel, it’s famous nerd culture KZread star Channel Pup! What are you doing here

@Talisguy

Жыл бұрын

I mean, if the "fake afterlife" has spanned all of human history and is, for all intents and purposes, completely indistinguishable from a *real* fucked up afterlife, then I don't see why it makes a difference that it's a con other than "at least the Doctor fixes it after this story." It still means that everyone who ever died in this universe suffered horribly for God knows how long. That aside, here's my take on the inclusion of a concept this nightmarish in Doctor Who: Doctor Who has often had pretty horrific ideas in its episodes, intentionally or otherwise. I'd say that people feeling everything that happens to their bodies after death is something that you can put in your script, absolutely. ...But if you're going to write something this existentially terrifying into your story aimed at family audiences, it had better be a damn good story. Quite apart from the points about suitability for children that Mr TARDIS made (again, I think you can just about get away with it if the story is good enough to justify that concept and it's treated with the appropriate gravity - this story fails on both counts), you're never going to be able to come up with a concept scarier than the idea that for tens of thousands of years, everyone who ever lived was agonizingly tortured in the afterlife with no control over their fate, no matter how they died, who they were, how they acted in life or what they believed. You get *one shot* at pulling off the scariest fucking idea you will ever have, so you'd better make it count.

@dirrdevil

7 ай бұрын

I totally agree. Some fans think a manufactured afterlife in Hell that eventually ends means no big problem after all.@@Talisguy

Danny isn’t “somehow not affected by the conditioning,” he was activated before he’d agreed to turn off his emotions. Now one could still ask “why does Missy need consent for that when other Cyber conversion stories never got hung up about consent?” but I’m just saying there is a reason. This one clearly rubbed you up the wrong way, and while there’s some massive issues with it (those soldiers guarding Missy, SERIOUSLY), I still like it more than I dislike it.

@LaurenceGill2000

3 жыл бұрын

Yea I agree with this explanation, but then also that means loads of people who have died since Danny dying should also have their emotional inhibitors turned off. And then the Brigadier does fight the conditioning later in the story. This plot sort of comes apart at the seams but I also find some enjoyment in it

@rowanclarke5703

3 жыл бұрын

@@LaurenceGill2000 how do you know no-one else had their inhibitors turned off. Also, I think it's intended that the Brigadier didn't delete his emotions

@skeeter2420

3 жыл бұрын

Big fan, nice to see you in the comments section.

@Ben-vf5gk

3 жыл бұрын

@The Reverse Not to mention the Master tormented our heroes with sissor sisters and his dancing, honestly where is the justice?

@ItsButterBean1020

2 жыл бұрын

@@Ben-vf5gk the Master has some moves tho

I'd argue that Clara's betrayal actually does work thematically when taking the whole of Series 8 into account. Once Danny discovers Clara's relationship with the Doctor in The Caretaker, she promises to end her travels after one final trip. But she ultimately finds she can't give it up and instead lies to Danny about ending things. Her lies continue during Flatline, an episode that also explores Clara's arc of becoming similar to The Doctor. Danny then discovers Clara's still travelling with the Doctor in ITFOTN and confronts her about it, asking for her to think about things and tell him the truth tomorrow. Dark Water then opens the next day with Clara attempting to tell Danny this truth. Clara shouting 'shut up' does feel jarring out of context, but it fits perfectly with the theme of Clara becoming more like The Doctor. "Shut up" had basically been one of Twelves catchphrases. This all then contrasts quite effectively with her sudden betrayal of the Doctor. After lying to Danny and effectively choosing The Doctor over him, to see her do something so drastic for the man she loves is impactful, even if it means confronting the very person she'd been seemingly favouring over him. Out of context it arguably doesn't work as well, and I can see your point about Clara's reputation as a control freak lessening the impact of the moment.

@skeeter2420

3 жыл бұрын

Agree!

The most frustrating thing about Steven Moffat is that he's either the best ever writer for Doctor Who or he's the absolute worst, often at the same time within the same episode. This is why 12 is probably my favourite Doctor: even though there are overwhelming lows in his era, Moffat just gives him these moments that display a complex and profound understanding of the character and Capaldi just runs with it. Imagine what he could have done if the quality had been consistent throughout - such a missed opportunity. I do feel bad for the Moff though; I get the sense that he was utterly exhausted making Sherlock and Doctor Who at the same time, hence why that gap between Series 9 and 10 seemed to completely refresh the show (The Lie of the Land/Twice Upon a Time aside).

@lapelcelery42

3 жыл бұрын

He seems to have the same problem bands talk about with their first two releases - "You have twenty years to write your first album, and only one to write your second". It's as if he dreams about writing shows for a long time, and so writes one good series which he's really thought about, then he seems to lose the time to decide which ideas are good and which are bad before series 2. Sherlock and Doctor Who are both like this IMHO (Jekyll didn't quite make it through series 1). It may be coincidence, but it also seems to be the case that an exception is when he writes under another showrunner who can do the job for him, and it's under these circumstances that we got such excellent episodes as Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, and Blink. For all the good and bad during his tenure, I think the worst mistake the Doctor Who team made in that time was deciding that the gruff 12 didn't work, and changing his personality back to Matt Smith/David Tennant for series 9. That was a tremendous disservice both to Peter Capaldi's strengths, and to the most interesting new characterisation we'd seen for the Doctor since the damaged 9th. When he locked Clara in with the clockwork men in Deep Breath, I got chills. I never would again after that series.

@bigdaddydons6241

8 ай бұрын

It's hard to feel bad for someone who breathes his own farts instead of oxygen

@paulheap1982

Ай бұрын

​@@bigdaddydons6241you should get along fine with him.

MRTARDIS: "This is the worst thing you've ever done!" Steven Moffat: "You say that so much it's lost all meaning!"

A thing i find stupid is that Clara throwing the keys is pointless because the doctor can snap his fingers to open the TARDIS doors so Clara threat is pointless (if it was real)

@TheKingofall42

3 жыл бұрын

My memory of this era of DW is poor, but I also seem to recall Clara herself opening the TARDIS with a snap at some point.

@matthewduncan8523

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheKingofall42 all the time

@llewelynshingler2173

3 жыл бұрын

@@attckonutube Given that the TARDIS can pilot herself, she should be able to unlock her own doors.

God that rant on 3W was worth the six year wait. Even I wasn’t expecting it to go on that long.

Completely understand the criticisms for Death in Heaven but Dark Water was an amazing setup and was very well received so this should be an interesting watch

@alexthehunted

3 жыл бұрын

i think that can be said with most moffat storys as his time as show runner great build up terrible resolution he really has a habit of dropping the ball but not while in the RTD era because i think maybe RTD could rain moffat in it's when moffat able to do what he wants he goes to far jackal season 3 and 4 of sherlock wedding of river song hell bent the monk trilogy

18:24 As a huge fan of the 3rd doctor era this short bit about the brigadier tugged at my heart strings more than the actual episode did

Still amazes me how people missed Capaldi's subtle nod to Jon Pertwee's worzel Gumage with the tea cup and saucer.

@ftumschk

3 жыл бұрын

I missed that, although I'm familiar with Worzel Gummidge. I'd just assumed Capaldi had picked it up from an earlier generation, as my paternal grandfather and maternal great-grandfather used to drink tea that way :)

"Dont cremate me" always felt like it was the result of someone browsing the SCP wiki late at night and wanted to incorporate that sort of tone into the show.

I disagree with the don’t cremate me thing being too far. I think it’s just far enough. What would be too far is if they actually showed it. I dunno. I just like the idea of Doctor Who being a bit more gritty and ruthless. If you disagree I totally get it. I like Dark Water a lot. Death in Heaven can fuck off tho. Not a fan of Missy’s ultimate goal. “I want the Doctor to be muh friend”.

@nicksmith3245

3 жыл бұрын

How many times has New Who set up a great story in part one to ruin it in part 2? Almost all the 2 partners!

@maldon3659

3 жыл бұрын

@@nicksmith3245 End Of Time was great in both parts and let's not forget Bad Wolf/Parting of The Ways, Human Nature/Family Of Blood, Army of Ghosts/Doomsday and The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances

@neptunesphere3964

3 жыл бұрын

@@nicksmith3245 It’s especially prevalent during the Capaldi era. Dark Water, Heaven Sent, and World Enough and Time are all some of my favourite episodes. But then Death in Heaven, Hell Bent, and The Doctor Falls ignore everything that the previous part set up.

@nathanielfarkas746

3 жыл бұрын

@@maldon3659 I think spyfall Is one of the Better ones to

@nickthepick8043

Жыл бұрын

Missy was a mistake. A bad idea from the start.

Also what the story does not take into account either is that in human culture, there are many concepts of what happens when you die. Some even don't include an afterlife but straight-up reincarnation into another body, either into their own family as descendents or into another person no matter the relation. First, these people must be confused and scared as hell that things transpired contrary to what they have believed their entire life and secondly, it also puts our western concept of an afterlife before all else when the 3W things applies to not only all people from Earth but to future people from other worlds who may have a completely different concept about life after death. Also, does this mean that only those people get uploaded into the matrix who believe in an afterlife and not in something else after death?

@DuelaDent52

3 жыл бұрын

The Promised Land subplot doesn’t really make a whole lot of sense, but I think Missy just scoops up whoever from whenever she feels considering the Nethersphere was sought as far back as the Crusades and into the far future with the Daleks’ war on humanity.

@nickthepick8043

Жыл бұрын

@@DuelaDent52 I like to think her Yandere obsession with the Doctor makes it so she just snatches people from the places or eras he's been to just to fuck with him later. Like she'd prop up Rory or Amy in front of him just to make him suffer.

You probably should have warned me at the start of the video “if you don’t already hate this finale, don’t continue watching” because all your points are spot on and now I don’t think I’ll see this story in the same way again😂

My favourite jokes in these episodes are the Malcom Tucker reference and "I'm sorry, you left this behind on one of your previous attempts."

But... it's not a scam. Danny FEELS the cold. You hear a man screaming after being cremated. They go out of their way to tell you that the 3W thing was real.

@defrostedrobot77

3 жыл бұрын

You can't really use that as concrete evidence. They are in a Matrix and the end goal of this plan is to convince the people to turn their emotions off. They are not above using trickery to convince people that things are bad.

@lovablesnowman

3 жыл бұрын

If Danny feels cold would he not feel his broken neck or whatever? He was hit and killed instantly by a car. Would be not feel a cold metal slab on his back? Can you feel stuff within the Matrix thing? What if you get punched in the Matrix? Do you feel that? When the cremated people are cremated what does being ash scattered across a river or whatever feel like? It makes no sense and honestly I was expecting the twist to be Danny realising it was a scam and acting accordingly. Note those screams and stories could so easily have been fabricated by Missy

@tTaseric

3 жыл бұрын

@@lovablesnowman The fact that Danny has to be tricked or scammed at all before being sent back to his real body in Cyber-Form is proof that this Danny had free will and agency and is actually himself. The fact that Danny's mind was converted and sent back from the Matrix to his original body is proof that there's a legitimate connection between 3W and the real bodies. The afterlife Missy created was very much legitimate. The pain might be a trick to force people to convert themselves, but these are undeniably real human minds.

@ItsButterBean1020

2 жыл бұрын

My question is more why does Missy need them to give their consent? The Cybermen have never needed consent and Missy’s plan isn’t specifically something that requires they’re individuality remain. So why oh why does she not just have them consumed by the NetherSphere after death? It adds nothing to her scheme

@tTaseric

2 жыл бұрын

@@ItsButterBean1020 I have absolutely no idea to be honest.

Capaldi really did carry the whole of his tenure on his back, he's one of my favourite actors to have played the Doctor in the modern era and all this despite stories like these. Hell Bent though was the straw that broke the camels back for me and I didn't bother watching DW again until World Enough and Time because John Simm was coming back as The Master.

@ThePonderer

3 жыл бұрын

It’s a shame because Series 10 was undoubtedly Capaldi’s strongest one looking back. Maybe the strongest of the Moffat era period behind Series 5

@defrostedrobot77

3 жыл бұрын

@@ThePonderer I'd say S9 was stronger overall. S10 is good (and none of the episodes are super-awful) but it's not quite as tight thematically.

@Tolstoy111

Жыл бұрын

Capaldi’s last two years were terrific.

"The BBC did not actually know what they were transmitting." That's been the status quo since 1963 I'm afraid.

15:31 no she needed 3W so she could have a base of operations in 21st century to prepare the invasion. It also exists as a big arrow sign to draw the Doctor in. Remember, the whole point of this is to give him an army.

I so look forward to you posting these every day.thank you so much.a brilliant job very well done

Is it my imagination or is Moffat really bad at writing Ladies in relationships?

@tTaseric

3 жыл бұрын

Moffat is just terrible at writing women full-stop. I'd say the only female character he did justice was Bill, and that's just because he couldn't make her fit into his weirdly prominent fetishes that plague the show. There's always been a joke floating around that Moffat barely hides his kinks in his writing, but I honestly don't think it's even a joke Seriously, I'm struggling to think of another major female character he's written that hasn't made at least one cuckold joke or something similar.

@ItsButterBean1020

Жыл бұрын

See even Bill mostly gets done dirty because while I love her, she’s not that complex beyond fun

I think the whole thing with Clara saying she’s owed is her just grieving and not thinking clearly

@ftumschk

3 жыл бұрын

People say all kinds of odd things in moments of grief, and it's not unusual to be somewhat self-centred under such circumstances, either: "I'm owed" is basically on the same spectrum as "Why me?"

@shaunwales1025

3 жыл бұрын

@@ftumschk 100% agree

I seem to recall that, at this part of the timeline, Sarah Jane wasn't dead (that happens later). Adric, assuming his body survived dropping from space, had been hanging around for 65 million years, and so unlikely to be able to provide any meaningful biomass. I didn't mind the Brigadier - if anyone in the Doctor's circle was likely to see that he was in a simulation that was designed to break him, it's the Brig. I wasn't keen on the open ended 'did he suicide, or does Earth have a new protector thing - he never seemed to sort to go to the stars, so, if he didn't explode himself, he'd just loiter around smelling like a reliquary. (As a side comment - am I the only one to assume that Cybermen smell of necrotic flesh?)

@tinykemper2561

3 жыл бұрын

I'm fairly certain it was confirmed in a comic that the Brig did indeed blow himself up.

@rogersstinson4019

2 жыл бұрын

I actually didn’t have a problem with it at first

I don't really see how some people experiencing cremation is darker than the general body horror concept of the cybermen or many other things in the show that aren't noted for being too dark.

@tinykemper2561

3 жыл бұрын

Or the fact that Slitheen literally scoop out people's remains, probably have a nibble on them, and then wear their skin. I think that's worse than the don't crimate me thing, plus the Slitheen were aimed towards kids.

@Mark-nh2hs

2 жыл бұрын

And when the Mondasians came back they implied they were in constant pain which I found creepy as hell.

@ginge641

Жыл бұрын

@@tinykemper2561 Bruh come the fuck on.

@dirrdevil

7 ай бұрын

Implying every human in existence cremated is burned alive in pain they can't die from is worse on scale than any Cyber-ization of a few fictional characters.

@vishaansingh1019

5 ай бұрын

idk why everyone comes out of the woodwork when a reviewer rightfully criticizes a line that turns the entire Whoniverse into a 40k hellscape.

“Don’t cremate me” admittedly sounds like an interesting idea… For Torchwood.

@doctorneotech7011

2 жыл бұрын

Maybe, possibly Big Finish at a stretch

Ooh potentially mulling over and teasing of master-cember Would be nice

@redroseproductions4688

3 жыл бұрын

Yesssss pleeeeeeaaase

@calumbishop7082

3 жыл бұрын

Let's see: 1. Terror of the Autons 2. The Mind of Evil 3. The Claws of Axos 4. Colony in Space 5. The Daemons 6. The Sea Devils 7. The Time Monster 8. The Deadly Assassin 9. The Keeper of Traken 10. Logopolis 11. Castrolova 12. Time-Flight 13. The Kings Demons 14. Planet of Fire 15. The Mark of the Rani 16. Trial of a Timelord: The Ultimate Foe 17. Survival 18. Destiny of the Doctor Video Game 19. Doctor Who TV Movie 20. Scream of Shalka 21. Utopia 22. The Sound of the Drums/Last of the Timelords 23. The End of Time 24. Spyfall 25. Series 13 appearance? Just enough... Barely

@KillerMeme

3 жыл бұрын

@@calumbishop7082 mean the Daleks was just enough for 24 just so happened the master has shown up with both enough to take some stories off Usually 25 is cameos and all other minor appearances

@kierenevans2521

3 жыл бұрын

@@calumbishop7082 More to play with than there was with the cybermen

@kren62

3 жыл бұрын

@@calumbishop7082 dont forget the comic relief special

One of the biggest crimes is Matt smith never got to verse the master on screen

Steven Moffat: Doctor Who is for kids Also Steven Moffat: *Implies SCP-2718 is canon to the Whoniverse*

@rogersstinson4019

2 жыл бұрын

What’s that?

@robotx9285

Жыл бұрын

@@rogersstinson4019 It's basically, when you die, you keep feeling pain even though you don't exist anymore.

While a convoluted point, leading an army isn't really out of a character for The Master, they more often than not have an army of whatever monster they're working with that week.

@tinykemper2561

3 жыл бұрын

The clues kind of in the name 'Master'

@Ben-vf5gk

3 жыл бұрын

my issue was I could never see ANY version of the Master handing a cyber army to the Doctor and not be interested in using it themselves. Tho missy not being like most versions of the Master is kind of her arc

@skeeter2420

3 жыл бұрын

@@Ben-vf5gk Sure, although as you say this is a exploration of a different side to the character, about how they feel about their friendship with the Doctor.

@Ben-vf5gk

3 жыл бұрын

@@skeeter2420 Yeah it's just that previous incarnations managed to explore that friendship much better whilst still retaining their ambition. I don't think any scene in Death in Heaven comes close to the phone call scene between 10 and Simm in Sound of Drums.

@skeeter2420

3 жыл бұрын

@@Ben-vf5gk Fair enough, I'd agree that Death in Heaven isn't the best exploration of the relationship out there but I wouldn't say it's out of character, just a different aspect of the character

I think there's a difference between the Doctor refusing to turn on Danny's emotional inhibitor (and thereby going against his principles by participating in the conversion process which he detests- an action which the episode depicts as questionable via Danny's comments) and offering to kill the Master, a villainous character.

30:10 No Doctor you're not a idiot, But Steven Moffat is, Actually that line of dialogue can sum up the whole 2 Parter in a nutshell.

I'm gonna be honest- I love these two episodes, though I fully understand the criticisms on them.

@peterstangl8295

3 жыл бұрын

I like the first one, not so hot about the second.

Totally agree. What the f was Moffatt playing at with that awful, legacy destroying shit with the Brig? Utterly diabolical.

"an idea that no-one throughout human history has thought of" except for the several real cultures that do believe that humans continue to feel their bodies after death.

@zoewells3160

2 жыл бұрын

Could you give me some examples? Genuinely curious...

Thanks for breaking the who afterlife nonsense down. It bugged me from the original airing, and it bugged me more how people liked it

Oh god...was Dracula THIS YEAR?!

The only positive thing I have to say about This awful story is I saw Gravity Falls for the first time when I changed the channel.

Mastercember 1. Terror of the Autons 2. The Mind of Evil 3. The Claws of Axos 4. Colony in Space 5. The Daemons 6. The Sea Devils 7. The Time Monster 8. Frontier in Space 9. The Deadley Assassian 10. The Keeper of Traken 11. Logopolis 12. Castrovalva 13. Time-Flight 14. The Kings Demons 15. The Five Doctors 16. Planet of Fire 17. The Mark of the Rani 18. The Ultimate Foe 19. Survival 20. The Movie 21. Utopia/Sounds of Drum/Last of the Timelords 22. The End of Time 23. Dark Water/Death in Heaven 24. The Magicans Aprentice/The Witch’s Familar 25. World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls 26. Spyfall 27. Acension of the Cybermen/The Timeless Children

@SegaNintendoGuy64

3 жыл бұрын

There's only one problem with the list, He already did The 5 Doctors, Dark Water/Death in Heaven, The Magician Apprentice/ The Witches Familiar, World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls, And Acension of the Cybermen/The Timeless Children during Dalekcember and Cybercember.

My thinking for the cremation thing is so there's more bodies to convert. Except this is basically headcannon despite being logical its never used in that way. It's not used as hey I need a reason to ensure that there's as many bodies as possible" it's written as "Hey lets give the viewers some existential dred horror"

Phenomenal review 👍

Dark Water definitely has echoes of the comic story the Flood too it

22:18 Oooooooor, Danny’s response isn’t referring to this story but the very long arc they go through together throughout S8 in which Danny clearly doesn’t like The Doctor or the pain he creates in his wake. Hence ‘shame on you, Doctor’.

Just a few more points worth discussing. 16:39 Why exactly is a show from this year being used as a critique of this 6 year old episode? Also it's fine to reuse concepts, it's what you do with them that counts. The 'digital afterlife' in Silence in the Library is used in a completely different context to the one in this story. 16:50 I dont think these scenes are really comparable. Sure the basic joke structure is the same, but the intent and context are completely different. Ten is excited due to unexpectedly meeting (and snogging) a historical figure he admires. Clara is clearly teaching a class, with a small nod to both her time travel and sexuality. I realize spotting the formula of their delivery could be irritating, but you yourself call Kate a great character. Why exactly does this small comedic moment ruin that? 18:30 I dont think the Doctor's relationship with the Brigadier is quite as rosy as you paint it. In Inferno the Doctor clearly states. "Miss Shaw may have the misfortunate to work for you, Brigadier. I am a free agent." I agree with you more on the Salute line.

I know near the end of Dark Water it was a bit of a homage to The Invasion 1968, But I don't think it works well for me anyway.

@dustin_4501

3 жыл бұрын

Is basic just fan service rather that something clever like other references to the classic era, really shame and waste reference to The Invasion.

@SegaNintendoGuy64

3 жыл бұрын

@@dustin_4501 It's almost as bad as Asylum of the Daleks.

@dustin_4501

3 жыл бұрын

@@SegaNintendoGuy64 Yippie is that bad also that episode doesn't have the High Council Dalek and that Daleks with flame-throwers like in The Daleks' Master Plan and Part Of Ways, what fail Dalek fan service.

19:29 Yeah this scene annoys me aswell, and the excuse that the defenders come up with are just as stupid, "oh well Missy obviously hypnotised the guards!" THEN YOU FUCKING SHOW THAT. Don't have the guards as voiceless extras who just get killed half a second AFTER the Master escapes. Either have a shot of the guards looking visibly dazed by hypnotism, or have Missy slowly walk up to Osgood, who orders the guards to apprehend her, and then show them dropping their guns, or maybe point their guns at Osgood or something. Claiming that Moffat intended for the guards to be hypnotised IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH

@dirrdevil

7 ай бұрын

Agreed. Show, don't tell.

This might get a bit lengthy but there’s a lot to say.
 Clara says she feels owed because like anyone who has lost someone she feels she doesn’t deserve this (and her status as a companion has opened up more possibilities). It’s not that convoluted. I also don’t think Clara’s behaviour in the beginning necessarily makes her key ploy any less effective as a)it’s an aspect of a character that’s been pushed to an extreme so there’s a logical thorough line b)you can tell by Jenna’s acting that her feelings on this situation are much more furious

Yes, the afterlife exists in this scenario but that’s not the con in question. The con is that you can feel the pain to your body while you are in the afterlife and that has not been disproven. This is ultimately because the ultimate end goal of this scenario is to convince you to turn off your emotions so they are doing everything they can to convince people to do so (presumably because doing so willingly will net better results). Any supposed evidence of bodies being connected to what is going on to their bodies is incredibly suspect given that they are in the MATRIX which can simulate scenarios, but if the person was aware they were in there they could take some level of control (see Deadly Assassin). Also, I’m pretty certain that convincing the super rich about your theory is beneficial in that a)you get to spread the concept around to further encourage the manipulation b)you have additional resources and income that can help in various ways (I mean the exact logistics of when and how this plan all came together is kind of vague so we don’t really know how long the various facets of this plan took to come together).

 Moffat’s digital afterlife-s don’t contradict Missy’s line about Cybermen and cyberspace since it’s the CYBER part of that line that’s important, as in connecting Cybermen and Cyberspace together, and not the afterlife part, which is kind of new as far as the show at least. And if Moffat re-uses the cremation idea in Dracula in 2020 that doesn’t really affect the freshness of the idea in 2014 does it?

 I don’t think we can really lay the idea of Doctor Who re-using the same handful of characters at Moffat’s feet when that’s been kind of a thing before and after him.

 I think there’s some ambiguity as to whether the second rain fall is actually designed to kill and convert the living. It could very well be that they are just gonna bring up more Cybermen that will take humanity down for further conversion. If that’s the case than it taking multiple rains to conquer everyone isn’t unreasonable. Also, I’m pretty sure Danny wasn’t completely affected by the conditioning because he didn’t press the button to turn his emotions off. I feel like the SQUEE bit is more Moffat being meta with having characters watch the Doctor do stuff and be impressed than it is about his own cleverness specifically but I guess that’s neither here nor there.

 Checking the transcript again, Danny’s line about “the shame” being on the Doctor is clearly in response to his whole bit about how he can feel the hurt he inflicts which as far as he’s concerned makes him kind of a bastard as he allows people to suffer despite him knowing on some level it’s bad, this tying back to some stuff in The Caretaker and maybe a bit of Kill the Moon. And given this whole bit follow the Doc not wanting Danny to turn off his emotions he’s clearly annoyed because he wants to be relieved of this pain and this man is telling him to not even tho he’s suffering and knows that. And the Doctor obviously doesn’t want to turn the inhibitor on because not having emotions SUCKS.

 The way I view it if Clara is so insistent on turning on the inhibitor there’s not much the Doctor is gonna be able to do to change her mind (she’s already shown her determination earlier). And turning off his emotions is not the same thing as killing Danny. As far as she’s concerned she’s showing him some mercy, whereas killing Missy would actually be killing her.

 I get the Master-isms are a little subjective but I don’t see why Missy’s zany actions don’t align with the Master but Simm or Dawan’s do? And if regeneration is supposed to change the approach a person takes why wouldn’t her schtique qualify under that umbrella? Also, I guess I’ll just mention that retroactively we can assume that Missy bringing The Doctor and Clara together was at least partially motivated by the Hybrid business (which would tie into her goals of wanting to bring the Doctor to her level).

 I feel like there’s a difference between being President which may inadvertently have access to an army and being in direct control of a legion of cyborgs that could have incredible control of the universe (and I’m pretty sure that the Doctor didn’t WANT to be President, he was just kind of given the title for the immediate situation). There’s a difference between being President of Earth and being able to control things on a galactic scale. It’s that kind of temptation that Missy wants to toy the Doctor with. And I don’t think an army not being super helpful in his S8 adventures is really relevant. Those were just regular Doctor helping out things. We’re talking the possibility for galaxy-spanning change here (and we know that the Doctor doesn’t usually interfere with every thing). Something that the Doctor doesn’t NEED but might WANT (at least in Missy’s view) if the temptation was put in front of him and he was pushed into it.

 I think the Brigadier would have been fine becoming a Cyberman if it meant he could save his daughter and help his buddy the Doctor out. The fact he was able to resist the conditioning I’d say speaks pretty positively of his character.

Why is the Santa ending whiplash bad here but it’s not a problem when RTD did it? At least there’s a bit of credits to separate the scenes.

@TheoreticalRain

3 жыл бұрын

This a great comment. Mr Tardis is usually pretty savvy about his media and critical analysis so I don’t understand why he drops the ball so hard when it comes to Moffat episodes. Like your comment shows, he’s basically willfully misinterpreting or nitpicking the story. And you don’t even get to why the episode is actually good, just refuting all the ridiculous claims he makes.

It's hardly fair to criticise this story for having beats that Moffat would reuse afterwards in Dracula and Twice Upon A Time.

@tTaseric

3 жыл бұрын

To be fair Dracula was a psychological horror show aimed watched by older audiences. The cremation in Dracula was actually kinda fucked up but something expected if you'd been watching the show, unlike this scene which was from an science-fantasy action family show from an era defined by kid-friendly fairy-tales.

This review sums up all the problems with the Moffat era. The characters and their motivations simply do not make sense; so much dialogue is self-congratulatory wank by the writer; the themes are "profound" until you scratch the surface for a millisecond

I think the 'con' is more regarding that the nethersphere is a construct of Missy's which is empty by the end of the episode, it isn't a natural state of the universe. Plus I don't know if it's said that everyone goes to the Nethersphere? Missy would have trillions of cybermen if that was the case.

Great analysis that solidify the "well I think I like it but why doesn't I feel like I liked it" feeling I had when I originally watched this

The Moffat era cyber stories all nick an element from the expanded universe don’t they? Closing time (an attempt to weaponise cyber mats against the cybermen like in spare parts) Nightmare in silver (chess playing cyberman at a fair) Dark water/death in heaven (cybermen weaponising rain like in the flood) Wet/doctor falls (origin of the cybermen- spare parts)

I got whammed on one of the midroll ads Damn you good content!

Adric might not have become a cybermen because he died in a time period before humans had an after life, and he's not actually human.

Hey bro, loving your content, IDEA FOR YOU, after you have completed the Cybermen stories, it would be great for you to do a series on all the Master episodes :)

Not liking it is one thing, but ignoring stuff just to be able to say “for some reason” isn’t fair. I counted at least 6 times you said something wasn’t explained when it was explained basically 5 seconds before it happened

@dirrdevil

7 ай бұрын

And you didn't list any of them.

@Eddo15878

3 ай бұрын

@@dirrdevillol

Moffat would later reuse the ‘feel cremation’ idea I’m Dracula. And it is executed much better in that. Also, the cyber army could have helped in the care-taker

Having rewatched this story yesterday for the first time since its original broadcast, something that really stood out to me is how the child that Danny accidentally killed is a complete NPC, and that any potential for interesting thematic exploration is ruined by him having no dialogue and running and hiding from Danny after about 30 seconds. Though it would take a lot to salvage this story given the fundamental issues it has with the "Don't cremate me" stuff and Missy's entire plan, something that would have potentially benefitted Dark Water was if it was restructured, having the pre titles sequence show Danny as a soldier as well as this boy's home life to make the accidental death of a child hit home emotionally, and then giving the two an actual conversation so that Danny's decision to sacrifice himself so the boy can be reunited with his family has more weight

In terms of the Doctor needing an army, well here’s what I have to say. It’s similar to Series 1, the Doctor didn’t won the day on his own. 1. While he was talking to the Half Faced man, Clara and the Pasternoster gang were keeping the other Clockwork droids busy. 2. Clara and Journey Blue helped the Doctor find Rusty’s memories. 3. The Doctor needed assistance from Clara and Robin Hood to fire that arrow at the engine. 4. If the walking paradox’s that is Orson Pink wasn’t there at the end of the universe, the Doctor would have been sucked out into space and Clara helped comfort the Doctor when he was a child hiding in that barn on Gallifrey. 5. The Doctor needed assistance to get through the tight security during the Time Heist of Karabraxos. 6. Due to Danny Pink’s soldier expertise, that bought the Doctor enough time to override the Skovox Blitzer. 7. Clara, Courtney and that other astronaut (I can’t remember her name) were forced by the Doctor to make a decision on whether they needed to kill the creature inside of the Moon or not. 8. Perkins and everyone else helped the Doctor out with defeating the Mummy on the Orient Express. 9. The Doctor was stuck inside his Tardis, so Clara and Rigsy basically saved the day in Flatline. 10. That little girl was able to communicate with the tree spirits and tell everyone in Planet Earth to stop burning down the trees. True, not all of them were good. But that’s basically was the arc Series 8 was going for. The Doctor didn’t need an army, but his friends are able to help him out. As for the “I never needed an army. I am an idiot. With a box and screwdriver.” could have worded better. Something like this. “I am the Doctor! I don’t need an army. Never needed one. All I need is my box, my screwdriver and my friends to help me win the day when I need it. So does that answer your question, Clara? That make me a good man?”

The ‘afterlife’ was just people’s consciousness being uploaded into a Time Lord device called the Nethersphere. Based on how it’s described in the episode it’s sort of like a portable, mini version of the Matrix. There was no REAL afterlife in the episode. Just people’s minds being uploaded into a machine. The reason there were two sets of ‘rain’ to upgrade people into Cybermen was to blackmail the Doctor into accepting the Cybermen army. The first rain was to redownload people’s consciousness back into their Cyber-converted bodies with their emotions being deleted in the Sphere, which was due to the scam the Master and 3W created to make people think that they were still connected to their bodies. Now there’s an army of Cybermen from the dead. This is the army Missy wanted the Doctor to take. If he didn’t then she would activate another rainfall that would upgrade the living. So either the Doctor takes the Cyberarmy upgraded from the dead or he refuses and Missy activates the second rain. Either way she wins. Now I will agree it is strange she seemed annoyed that the Doctor was escaping falling to his death. Of course maybe like you she was annoyed by her employee guy (who’s name I literally do not remember). As for the whole am I good man thing. That was shown throughout the series, albeit in more subtle ways than previous series arcs. Throughout the series this incarnation of the Doctor was shown to be more cold, withdrawn, and on occasion downright callus. The first episode implies he pushed the Half-face Man to his death, in the second episode he falsely reassures a soldier that he’s going to be alright before he’s brutally killed, the Doctor then seemingly has no issue with his death, in that awful moon episode he abandons Clara in the future to determine whether or not to destroy the moon which could risk the Earth. There are more examples of this incarnation of the Doctor doing morally questionable things that all build to his “I am an idiot” speech.

I think the don't cremate me line would have worked slightly better if 1) Missy hadn't been doing this to every person through-out the entirety of history, and maybe only a small period 2) We have a scene of the Doctor confronting Missy about this and being devastated at hearing that Missy has put these people through so much pain, since in the episode it's shrugged off pretty quickly in favour of battling the Cybermen and Clara's subplot

@Mark-nh2hs

2 жыл бұрын

Didn't bother me in the slightest found it creepy. And is a common horror trope

@yourfriendlycynic654

2 жыл бұрын

@@Mark-nh2hs I've got no issue with the content, it's the fact that Death In Heaven just throws these ideas aside as soon as it establishes them

@Mark-nh2hs

2 жыл бұрын

@@yourfriendlycynic654 I wasn't making a dig it makes me laugh how people get so angry and disgusted by the Cremation bit yet people converting into Mondasian Cybermen living in constant chronic pain cry for death is perfectly fine and no complaints let's say for all those people who suffer from debilitating chronic pain all their lives... I find it so hypocritical lol. Oh the second part of Dark Water was just a shit storm lol

@yourfriendlycynic654

2 жыл бұрын

@@Mark-nh2hs Fair enough

@dirrdevil

7 ай бұрын

It's not about whether it bothered you. It's about does it work as a story? We get it. You're a big, tough guy not afraid of anything.@@Mark-nh2hs

That damaged Invasion Cyberman head is the only good thing to come out of this. I’m surprised Steven managed to remember which version of the head was needed given his usual track record of intellect.

Wouldn’t that mean Amy and Rory were converted into a cyberman

@indigobird3454

2 жыл бұрын

Yes

@zoewells3160

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, and everyone else who ever died.

@zoewells3160

2 жыл бұрын

@ How?

2 жыл бұрын

@@zoewells3160 The episode explained how. Pay attention next time.

@zoewells3160

2 жыл бұрын

@ And yet, you still can't answer the question.

thanks so much for putting words to how I feel about Missy as the master I have often found it difficult to understand her charter and how I feel about her

One thing that was unusual was to see The Doctor beating up his wife instead of caressing her like he normally does. EDIT: And also they should have shown The Doctor actually free-falling into the Tardis, it was weird that they ran the build up and then didn't give us the money shot.

I think many people here fail to understand a distinction of something being shocking/dark with good narrative choice. Something as broad as all of humanity being forced to suffer after death is pretty nihilistic and sadistic. It's one thing to have a character die, it's another to have them ruthlessly tortured in some essentially magical way. I agree that it's callous as a writer to rewrite all of Doctor Who as having the entire human race across all time be tortured in the afterlife. Essentially, Hell is suffering in the afterlife, so Steven Moffat essentially argues every human being goes to Hell in the canon. It's also stupid pragmatically. Missy abducts all of human kind across all time and space. That's a huge feat for even a group of Time Lords. Unless the Doctor's plans changed what Missy did, and we don't purge this terrible story from our headcanon, Missy's plans are still in action even after the events of the story as they do occur in the future of humanity as well. That's why your story's scope should never be all-encompassing to begin with. Moffat doesn't respect the work of other writers or characters.

I've loved these reviews. I haven't agreed with everything, which isn't a criticism: I appreciate difference of opinion. But this review is absolutely spot on, I agree absolutely. Such a problematic story and you've put into words so many of the problems brilliantly. Bravo.

The 1996 movie that barely anyone talks about is a Master Story and features the eighth doctor who doesn’t either encounter the Daleks nor the Cybermen except big finish stories.

also when they’re in the grave yards why isn’t all the grass ripped up?

I don't think the shut up scene in the opening is an example of Clara being psychotic at all. She's telling Danny to shut up because she's trying to create a space where she can be honest with him about all the times she's lied to him over the course of the show. Her statement of "I love you" isn't at all the end goal of her conversation, it's just laying the groundwork for "I've been dishonest with you for months." The only reason she doesn't outright start off with her confession is that she's afraid that he'll be angry when he discovers she's been lying to him habitually about her adventures with the doctor(This is shown and set up throughout season 8, so her lying about her adventures to make Danny feel safe isn't out of nowhere). And I think that's an entirely normal reaction and approach to the conversation given how she was characterized throughout season.

Cyberbrig is, for me, the worst moment in doctor who’s 57 year history. I don’t know how a man who is as evidently intelligent and talented as Moffat could ever consider writing that

@zoewells3160

2 жыл бұрын

Worse than the N word being said in The Celestial Toymaker?

@dirrdevil

7 ай бұрын

Well, yes, that's worse, but in a different way. Using a slur is just bad in most contexts, Doctor Who or not, (I think it's reasonable in an adult historical like a Western, especially if it's portrayed as the hate it is). But the Cyberbrig is the worst Doctor Who idea in Doctor Who. @@zoewells3160

I agree with about 90% of your rants, in fact I actually forgot how much of this story I disliked, I must have blacked stuff out. But...I am gonna be one of those to defend (partly) the 3 words thing. I don't think they were saying the 'afterlife' existence was a con, but the idea that the consciousness feels what happens to the body after death, the idea that if a body is burned they will feel it after. Someone else pointed out that, if this were true, why wasn't Danny's neck still broken or ribs hurting or whatever injuries he suffered from the car crash? Same for the kid, he didn't seem to be in any pain. The effect of feeling 'cold' could just be something installed from Missy's matrix tech and likewise the voice is also faked. If Missy's device is destroyed then presumably the whole afterlife goes with it and people are just...gone, nothing, as they would be. But we're never given any closure on that because, as you say, stupid story is stupid and yeah I really can't defend anything else.

@dirrdevil

7 ай бұрын

Great points. I agree.

I haven't watched the review yet, just wanna say that this is gonna be cathartic for me. I used to like it, then actually thinking about it just ages it so badly, like much of Series 8 and 9. The narrative is just complete nonsense, Michelle Gomez is great but the character is just a bunch of witty lines and dear me, Death in Heaven's structure and pacing and everything... In the Forest of the Night to Witch's Familiar is probably the worst run of episodes of all time time for me, and this COULD be the nadir. Although it's all made up for in two season's time with Capaldi's best story. Too bad we had to wait so long to get it.

@BH-98

3 жыл бұрын

I completely agree with everything you said. I honestly believe that run of 6 episodes ITFOTN to TWF is probably the reason why the viewing figures went down during Capaldi’s era (along with kill the moon, sleep no more & hell bent).

@benw4409

3 жыл бұрын

@@BH-98 Kill the Moon is terrible but every Doctor has a wonky story in their first season so it's understandable. But when the finale, special, then premier are all just as bad, we have a problem. And in my opinion Series 9 isn't that much better than Series 8. The Whithouse two parter is a stroke of genius and the Zygon two parter is flawed but admirable but everything else barring Heaven Sent is just a mess.

@BH-98

3 жыл бұрын

@@benw4409 I included kill the moon in there as it was the start of the whole “doctor who is too political” complaint that people have. It & in the forest of the night were bad episodes that portrayed it political message in a poor & unsubtle way. The show has always been political but when it’s done badly there & later episodes such as orphan 55 follow its example, it completely warped the fandom into becoming incredibly toxic.

@dirrdevil

7 ай бұрын

​@@benw4409 Having a bad story is one thing; you can write off a boring or stupid adventure. But then when you say the moon is an egg; that's there in every story before and after now and spreads its stupidity about, which is Moffat's worst habit. I'd rather have an episode with the Doctor stuck in a broom closet, which you can just forget about it later.

Yeah this finale is really rough. It seriously sucks that Capaldi only has one good finale, that being said it's probably one of the shows best finales. It'll be a nice breath of fresh air after this, Definitelyyyyyy looking forward to it. The only good thing I can actually say about this finale is that it shows up in LEGO Dimensions, and that's a fun game. That's just about it

Something I don't get in this story is how just taking the cyber helmet face plate off made Danny's voice go back to normal...Lytton had a cyberman voice when he was semi converted as did the semi converted people in Real Time

Oh watching this reminds me of the rage and hate I had for this story and for Clara. You brought up a lot of points I agree with, one thing I felt was that how Clara has a double standard. She would condem trillions across the universe for the sake of her boyfriend. But at the end she has the gall to blame all the masters victims on the Doctor. When A) the Doctor has tried to destroy the master before and it hasn't worked. and b) by that logic you would be the one responsible for all those the Doctor wouldn't be able to help. So which is it you cow? You can't have it both ways.

2021: Mastercember (?) 2022: Gallifrey/AssortedTimeLorderycember (??) 2023: ChristmasSpecialcember (???)

@peterstangl8295

3 жыл бұрын

Are there enough silurian stories for a "-cember"? Or sontaran maybe? Just a thought.

One theory I have about this story (and it's most likely wrong), is that there really is a proper afterlife outside of Missy's sphere, but she was able to use the Time Lord technology to essentially kidnap the souls of the dying, with her afterlife lasting so long as her "harddrive" was functional (plus Tardis tech to go beyond that scope), with everyone being freed to go to the real afterlife whenever it was finally destroyed. So, I guess I'm saying, it was a horrid limbo.

@dirrdevil

7 ай бұрын

I'd agree with that. Missy faking an afterlife or not has no impact on the existence of one. I'm not even a believer in afterlife. But some simulation she puts peoples' minds into to suffer after death does not affect it either way. It's an extension of their lives in a miserable fucking way.

Why do the cybermen actually need the corpses? Like, what different will a few bones make to the function of this cybernetic suit?

@KillerMeme

3 жыл бұрын

Why in quite a few NuWho stories they come across as more robot than cyborg tbh

I agree that it's a bit all over the place but I still really like it for the most part.

I can almost see what they were going for with the Cyber-Brig, but it fell short. And World Enough in Time/The Doctor Falls is far superior in every respect. As a Cyberman story, as a Master story, and as a companion departure. (even if, like Death in Heaven, the bus comes back)

Before: I've been waiting for this review for 6 years! After: & it was worth the wait! Though I now feel depressed as I remember how crap this finale was. Definitely the low point of this marathon.

I fully agree with everything you said, I couldn't stand this episode when it aired, one quick fix to make Danny's death seem normal would be to just have them talking about shopping or something along those lines whilst on the phone.

On the dark water controversy the concept of consciousness after death (to me at least) is a really interesting if messed up concept (I'm rather into that kind of psychological horror and mind fuckery) but I will whole heartedly agree for Doctor who... That shit is indeed inappropriate if that concept is to be explored a more adult show or separate piece of media that caters to adults should be exploring it. Not a pre watershed family programme

@dirrdevil

7 ай бұрын

This is the most reasonable take here by far. It's not that the idea is bad in itself, but this is the worst media vehicle for such an idea. I'd be totally cool for some A24 horror film using this concept.

Yeah, I had issues with the "I am owed better" line as well ..

Those two guards in the back, they could've easily solved that by hypnotizing them like we saw in Nightmare in Silver. Let's say that Missy has two Cyber-mites in the cap of her lipstick or in her bracelet that stop the guards from reacting.

Now that I think about it, the fact that they may B able to contact dead companions to B inside agents is never brought up, that's kind've a letdown.

I haven’t seen this one yet, but I do have one question. Aside from hiding the fact the dead are being converted into Cybermen due to making non organic matter invisible, what purpose does the Dark Water in and of itself actually serve?

You know what I really hate about this story? it's not necessarily the conclusion of the Doctor's season long arc, I don't mind that. And while it's irritating to have the Cybermen be reduced to The Master's minions, that reveal is still great and I do quite like this version of the character. Honestly I don't hate this as much as you do. Even so, There are many things that don't work, but the worst one? Clara pretending to be The Doctor. On paper it's whatever, a way to bluff for her life, but in execution it's the last line before the intro and they even put Jenna Coleman's name up front like they're trying to convince us this is really some big twist. Not only would it not work cause we KNOW Clara and her role by this point, that was the entire mystery last time, but it's utterly meaningless. It's a big "shock" thing with no payoff. And I feel like that sums up Moffat's worst traits as a writer, that scene right there. It's "cool thing" or "shocking thing" that DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING.

It's funny... because this is my favorite Modern Who Story 😅

@salem_meow7137

3 жыл бұрын

Oh same it’s one of my absolute favourites

32:29 They did, And they have.. I HATE YOU EPISODE!

Yeah i thought the whole felling stuff when your dead thing was kinda shocking and actually spooked me. World enough in time is much worse though. Definitely the most chilling new who cybermen story.

I was expecting to see you praise this story but you made a lot of good points

@rog2224

3 жыл бұрын

And some not so good...

Fantastic review! I agree with everything Mr Tardis says in this video. The whole story is a complete mess. I believe I watched it twice at the time to try to make sense of it. Since then I have never rewatched it like so many other stories in this era of Doctor Who. Just to put this into context I still regularly rewatch Dr Who from the 80s 🤷🏻‍♂️

I could not agree with you more about this story. I had forgotten how bad it was until I watched this review. The trauma is real again!!

It’s unfortunate to me that Doctor Who will never truly be able to explore darker themes because of audience backlash. It happened in Capaldis era and it happened with Tom Bakers first three seasons, leading to Hinchcliff being forced out.

@dirrdevil

7 ай бұрын

There are shades of grey. A few horrible deaths here and there are great. But I can't imagine something more perverse than what Moffat did here: condemned all of humanity, past, present, and future into Hell: suffering after death.

There’s a lesser known sci-fi/horror book series called Psychomech, by Brian Lumley. The whole spirit-linked-to-body and cremation thing is done in the first entry (from 1984) so, so much better, because it’s upfront with the utterly heinous implications. The character it happens to is a vile individual, yet you still feel for them because OH BOY it’s not pleasant.