As my driving instructor told me (many years ago)- "If you assume everyone else on the road is a congenital idiot, you won't go far wrong." How true!!

The 1.5M or more rule applies to overtaking - not passing. Rule 163. Overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so. You should - give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders and horse drawn vehicles at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car (see Rules 211 to 215). As a guide: leave at least 1.5 metres when overtaking cyclists at speeds of up to 30mph, and give them more space when overtaking at higher speeds

@cactusbase3088

2 жыл бұрын

Very true but would you have passed them at 60mph just because the highway code only mentions overtaking? I hope not. Pretty sure there are other rules in the code to deal with such dangerous and inconsiderate driving if you did have this mindset, Hopefully you don't. :-)

@adamspencer95

2 жыл бұрын

@@cactusbase3088 I'd love for you to point me to anywhere in the highway code that says you should/must slow down for vehicles entirely within oncoming lanes.

@BRAWGWill

2 жыл бұрын

@@cactusbase3088 It just seems rather unnecessary and potentially dangerous to slow down for oncoming vehicles that are in their lane

@ldorman

2 жыл бұрын

@@cactusbase3088 I would, and did often just keep going doing my speed. Especially around Peebles and Galashiels you sometimes see large groups ride up to 5 abreast, hogging the entire width of the lane and won't even reduce to a narrower group for lorries and busses. In my opinion, tree-hugging student cyclist and club riders are the most arrogant people you will meet on the roads.

@DropdudeJohn

2 жыл бұрын

@@cactusbase3088 What speed would you like us to hit you at and then run the full weight of my car over you should be clumsy enough to fall into my lane out of yours.

I'll comment on the cyclist aspect elsewhere but just to say, I loved the very detailed ongoing in-car analysis between the two of you. This is pretty much what I like to do and something that makes driving so interesting, with a constant desire to improve.

@marklittler784

2 жыл бұрын

😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆

@ibs5080

2 жыл бұрын

@@marklittler784 I gather you're having a great day there Mark!

The HWC advice for passing cyclists is with regard to overtaking them. Don't throw extras in that are not required. Sure, you can ease a little, but I would have if they were 2 abreast. Also why confuse things at 3:46 by waiting for the oncoming cars to come through when they had correctly waited. There was loads of space behind the 2nd for you to drive through and pas the white van. Being over courteous again, creating confusion.

@Nigelfarij

2 жыл бұрын

> There was loads of space behind the 2nd for you to drive through and pas the white van. Depends on how many cars are behind him.

@mikeroberts

2 жыл бұрын

@@Nigelfarij What difference does the vehicles following him make? The car ahead has stopped, as they should to let him through, and instead of going through he decides not to. If there are 5 or 6 cars behind him, so what?

@evanmacdonald9632

2 жыл бұрын

Possibly a spur of the moment thing 😂

@raftonpounder6696

2 жыл бұрын

Yes. Ridiculous.

@markwright3161

2 жыл бұрын

@@mikeroberts There was a van on Ashley's side further up. If the oncoming queue was 6 vehicles long and Ashley had 6 vehicles behind him and continued, as did all of the following, they would have created a gridlock situation. Ashley couldn't have passed the van until oncoming moved, but they couldn't pass their van until Ashley's queue moved. Stopping early to let them go cleared the oncoming lane which opened up the road to pass the van on their side with a better view of the road ahead as they could then offside earlier, making the situation safer to make progress through.

evening ashley ,ive been watching your vlogs since the dreaded lockdown a couple of years ago ,im 53 and always thought myself as a good driver but since watching your vlogs i can honestly say ive become more aware of things and a more courteous driver ,to be honest these days i get more of a self satisfaction knowing im just that little bit better and people will notice it .

If you look closely they are not riding 3 abreast. The riders behind the front 2 are 2 abreast. It's just that the rider on the outside behind the front two is riding a bit wide.

@cold_fruit

2 жыл бұрын

the rider on the outside behind the front two is positioned to the right of the two riders in the back. The rear cam makes this more obvious at 1:53. I would say he's in lane position 3, while the other four riders are all in lane positions 1 and 2, which I think fits the description of riding three abreast, personally.

@winnie6354

2 жыл бұрын

@@cold_fruit I find this very interesting - no one has pointed out that cyclists insist on taking primary position- the centre of the lane or even justify it is safer for them to be in the centre of the road near the white line, rather than to the left - unless they are riding in a group such as this - when the inside cyclists are perfectly happy to ride close to the left . What is therefore wrong with riding to the left of the road when they are on their own?

@randombanditdad3754

2 жыл бұрын

@@cold_fruit behind or not its still unsafe to ride in that position best to give on coming vehicles room for error or potholes or tyre blowing out we are after all responsible for our own safety as road users

@DEAR7340

2 жыл бұрын

@@winnie6354 One of the many reasons to cycle in the center is improved visibility; there are other reasons. If riding two abreast, the center cyclist accomplishes that, If there is only one of you, you would move to the center yourself, wherever it is safest to do so.

@winnie6354

2 жыл бұрын

@@DEAR7340 Really! - so by being in the centre of the road you are putting yourself in a more hazardous position. A motorist would have seen you anyway , and if they haven't riding two abreast is not going to help. I see so many cyclists do this talking to each other - so not concentrating on the road and more importantly what is approaching from behind. They just ignore that there is faster moving traffic queing up behind them .Safety and courtesy would mean them going into single file on the left so that overtaking is a much safer event. As is pointed out with the rider out in the middle of the road a motor vehicle coming up behind is unable to overtake leaving 1.5 or 2 m to pass even when on the other side of the road. This is where common sense and safety has been compromised to allow cyclist to use the highway as a sports facility.

The cyclists weren't riding 3 abreast. The cyclist in red was just slightly further out from the guy in front of him, but they certainly weren't 3 abreast.

@derekheeps1244

2 жыл бұрын

If they are making three lines of cyclists they are three abreast

@DasArab

2 жыл бұрын

@@derekheeps1244 So a group of 8 cyclists, not all sitting perfectly in line with each other, but sitting two wide would mean they were 8 abreast in your world?

@pataleno

2 жыл бұрын

Agee they were two abreast just very wide on the red cyclist and slight staggered.

@nickbea3443

2 жыл бұрын

@@derekheeps1244 They were NOT 3 abreast. Looks like they were rotating to switch at the front. The guy at the back was swinging out to then be in line with the 2nd row of cyclists rotating to the front. It made him look like he was part of a row of 3 but was behind everyone.

@mynewcolour

2 жыл бұрын

Yes. They are not three abreast they are the usual two-up group rotating - just about _the_ safest way for a group to ride. I wouldn’t have bothered going back to check the footage but 3-up is strictly frowned upon by every group of cyclists I’ve ever ridden with in UK roads (unless it’s a rolling closure road race or something like that) … so that assessment of the situation seemed so incredibly unlikely, I had to check.

I loved this video snippet of some advanced training. It was great to see you discussing and demonstrating off-siding. It seemed like a good balance of progress and restraint. nice.

I would say that the cyclists were in a bind there. If they were single file, then they're going to be a pain to pass, since they'd have presented a long, continuous line; if they bunch up, then it causes the oncoming traffic to be too close. Personally, the single file might have been better because they would only be inconveniencing people rather than putting themselves at risk, but you can guarantee that someone will get angry about single file and then make a dangerous overtake. As a cyclist, who does not ride in groups, I would prefer it if oncoming traffic eased off a little anyway, but as a driver I wouldn't just power on past them, or even a single cyclist. It's unnerving on a bike to have someone come within a couple of metres at a closing speed of +70 mph. I am amazed how on narrow roads, _oncoming_ drivers ignore any considerations that might apply if they were travelling the same direction as the bike. Most cyclists have probably had to 'gravel it' or worse, to avoid an oncoming car.

@alexwoodroffe9477

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly right. Someone wrote on here “well what about bikes overtaking me closely when I’m in a slow moving queue”… it’s the difference between walking on the platform in touching distance of a stopped train vs being on the edge of the platform with a non-stopping train zooming through the station! There’s a reason for that yellow line…

@kevinrayner5812

2 жыл бұрын

I used to work with a keen cyclist and on the subject of riding two abreast he said he never did it because most cyclists do it so they can chat to each other. He was out for the ride not to engage in conversation with others so always rode in single file. Just passing on one cyclist's attitude.

Could this lead to prosecution against you ? I can't see it, the highway code only says to give 1.5M when overtaking a cyclist, no mention of oncoming cyclists. Slowing down is the most sensible thing to do as you say.

@Slaeowulf

2 жыл бұрын

It's a classic spirit vs. letter of the law situation, but we can all agree what is safe is what is correct.

@marklittler784

2 жыл бұрын

Maybe it should be worded when passing a cyclist.

@tony_w839

2 жыл бұрын

@@marklittler784 There is a responsibility on cyclists to use the road safely and with consideration for other road users. Cyclits putting themselves at risk by cycling too close to the centre of the road are at fault. The word passing is used for pedestrians and horses, pedestrians will probably be travelling in the opposite direction to the traffic flow, so pedestrians are not being overtaken, horses need the space, cyclists should be travelling with the flow of traffic, so overtaking is the word used.

@ernestbywater411

2 жыл бұрын

I agree the law, as currently written, both in letter of the law and the spirit of the law, the maintaining the distance relates ONLY to overtaking a cyclist going the same way as you are. As to the general situation of allowing for reasonable space you have the meeting of a number of laws come into play, one of which is the basic rule to keep to the left. Should a cop, or anyone else start to claim that the 1.5 metres applies to oncoming traffic, then you can reply with a valid argument that they should NOT ride within 1.5 metres of the centre line unless they're about to turn right. Thus, in the situation in the video, they should not be riding abreast as wide as they are. I've been riding push bikes in city traffic since the mid 1960s, and motorbikes since 1972, and driving cars and light trucks since 1972. In all that time I've not come across any valid reason why cyclists HAVE to ride two or three abreast on the road. Which beggars the question of why adult riders are allowed to ride abreast on the road.

@stephenevans2518

2 жыл бұрын

@@ernestbywater411 if there's 4 or more cyclists and the road is fairly wide then riding two abreast halves the distance required to overtake and should make it easier for motorists. In this cases it's unlikely the road is wide enough to overtake a single row of cyclists while a car is passing the other way, so the cycling two abreast doesn't limit your options for overtaking compared to a single row as you'd have to cross the centre line anyway.

Really enjoyed that and great commentary. I have been driving for years but since I started watching your channel I do own commentary all the time. It really makes a huge difference.

That was possibly one of the most educational and intriguing conversations I've ever listened to! Great job from both of you there Ash, also great to see "cutting corners" or taking "racing lines" as such is acceptable as loads of people seem to be glued to the inside 😂 especially where I live with tight, windy roads, cutting corners when you can see clearly makes it so much easier!👍

@winnie6354

2 жыл бұрын

I'm sorry but I totally disagree with Ashley on cutting corners , especially in rural areas- it is a bad habit to get into- akin to cutting off a junction when turning - sign of a sloppy driver. - To advocate it from a driving instructor leaves me dumbfounded. Why would you want to cut the corner off? gain extra speed - racing line? If the police were following you they would rightly pull you over!!

@EightPawsProductionsHD

2 жыл бұрын

@@winnie6354 The police Roadcraft Driving Manual encourages this style of driving, if safe. Obviously if you have the self and spatial awareness and reactions of a hippopotamus, don't do it. Also don't do it if YOU don't feel safe doing it. "Why would you want to cut the corner off? gain extra speed - racing line?" No. It easier on the vehicle you're driving as you don't have to slow and make such acute steering inputs for each corner (saves wear and tear on brakes/suspension/tyres - also a more comfortable progression along the road for any passengers). On rural roads it gives you a BETTER view in some instances further up the road than you would get from constantly hugging and following the normal lane to the left. It's ADVANCED driving and thus not for everyone.

@Shylo2017

2 жыл бұрын

@@EightPawsProductionsHD thanks for that, pretty much what I was going to say. The other guy basically answered his own questions 😂 if you think about it too, in the long run, if you did it for the ~60 years you drive for, it's gonna save a lot of fuel and time, and make driving feel a lot easier as you said.

I just want to say i have noticed myself in little driving situations asking myself "What would Ashley Neil do?" Then your voice pops into my head like you're in the passenger seat. It helps calm my mind and think through things. Not all the time but i have noticed it.

@worldofanime4219

2 жыл бұрын

I thought I was the only one

@lvgio

2 жыл бұрын

😂😂i love this

@rufusgreenleaf2466

2 жыл бұрын

@@lvgio Not afraid to admit 🤣 in certain situations it actually helps.

Rule 1:Take Responsibility For Your Own Safety. Rule 2:If In Doubt,Refer To Rule 1.

@1ninjatiger

2 жыл бұрын

The issue with that is …..it’s not just your safety you are responsible for when behind the wheel. You have a responsibility to ensure the safety of other road users.

I'm just about to start my driving lessons and I will try to take care of cyclists

@andrewnorris5415

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you from a cyclist. As a driver, I watch out for learners even more now thanks to Ash. Patience and alertness are the keys to master. It's all a state of mind :)

@Jarv263

2 жыл бұрын

Stay on your side of the road on corners as well mate, stupid way to drive.

@Original50

2 жыл бұрын

Good. Cyclist will do their very best to behave arrogantly and dangerously at your expense.

@PiOfficial

2 жыл бұрын

Yes take care of them. Ram them off the road and bury the evidence😂

Not overtaking, they’re riding as many abreast as you are. The biggest difference between this and overtaking is that they can see you coming.

@andrewnorris5415

2 жыл бұрын

Hmm, not really in my view. I often cycle down narrow roads and cars coming the other way sometimes do not slow down. It is dangerous as there are potholes etc which could knock me out slightly into their paths to gusts of wind etc. I would not advise cycling 3 abreast approaching a blind bend on a fairly fast road for the same reasons. Anyone could be flying around that corner including HGV, coaches etc. It seemed to be only the one cyclist who may have been moving to the front at that moment, but ifso he should have waited until after the blind bend.

@stanley3647

2 жыл бұрын

@@andrewnorris5415 On video is 2 lanes with divider - clearly visible - If car stay in lane - is not a problem. At narrow roads without separator (single lane roads) situation is different. And car should give enough space to cyclist/biker/ped/horse when passing. I'm a cyclist as well.

As a country driver all my life off siding as you describe it is something I have done all of my driving life, mainly for the better visibility, it just comes naturally when you live in the country, oh and expecting vehicles that fill the road, as for cyclists on the other side of the white line I treat them like I would a car or any other vehicle, if they want to narrow their safety margins then that's their choice, if we are on opposing carriageways then as far as I'm concerned they are just like any other vehicle.

@marklittler784

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah your actually in the middle of the road visability wise when the driver is sat over the line, which gives maximum visability in built up areas also but there's always risks from drivers pulling out of parking spaces, driveways and side roads without looking left.

@DropdudeJohn

2 жыл бұрын

@@marklittler784 Yeah but that's why you are doing it, they can see you sooner you can see them sooner and you can adjust for a junction if there is one by pulling back to the near side even when that junction is empty

@TheGiff7

2 жыл бұрын

When rural driving I was taught to scrub speed when passing vulnerable road users regardless of direction of travel and give space when travelling in same direction. Equestrians were to be afforded greater care. ‘Off-siding’ was also a technique I was taught.

@DropdudeJohn

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheGiff7 Yeah on single or narrow carriageways, but on two lane road with a white line separating that would allow two vehicles to pass no problem at all, no, should the cyclist fall off into my side of the road could equally apply to the Mercedes coming other way crossing the white line or any other vehicle for that matter, if the cyclist were to go under the wheels the weight of the car ain't changing, and there no horses involved, but of course you slow or in some cases stop for horses, cyclist on opposing two lane carriageway, no that's fine, if they are on the other side of the white line they are any other vehicle as far as I'm concerned.

@marklittler784

2 жыл бұрын

@@DropdudeJohn Helps to reduce risk from car doors opening too especially when there's no opposing traffic, allowing you to do so, on single lane roads.

It's amazing how many people will pass cyclists with barely a gap between the two. There's no excuse for it and this is from someone who drives buses between Southport, Liverpool and Wigan for living. Even today on one of my routes that runs between Scarisbrick and Lydiate, I saw a dozen people just "bomb it". There are times where I could be following a cyclist for minutes at a time without a chance to pass but that's the way it has to be to make sure they're safe when I do get the chance to pass.

@mattwardman

Жыл бұрын

Thank-you for taking that approach.

Really good video as it doesn't just show the driving but shows a good attitude & mind skill when faced with others putting themselves at risk.

Excellent piece of advanced commentary on limit point and off-siding. I have my advance F1rst which I got with no minus points. I would love to see more of this advanced information.

I do this all the time. I remember some passengers asking me what I was doing and apart from saying advanced driving techniques I would say getting better visibility, putting less strain on the car and them, etc. It's amazing how many people don't know this.

@NitroNuggetTV

2 жыл бұрын

its scary how many people cant be bothered or wont even think to position their vehicle on the road for a better view of the road ahead, or even for awkward junctions. You'd think it would be common sense.

@dustdriverdd

2 жыл бұрын

I think it's good many people don't know this, because it requires more awareness to avoid collisions with opposite traffic. But for motorcyclists, it's a vital positioning technique.

@hicky62

2 жыл бұрын

The police Roadcraft driving manual encourages this style of driving, if safe.

@ashley_neal

2 жыл бұрын

Time for a video I think!

@Richard_Barnes

2 жыл бұрын

Not many know or practice this because the white lines dictate (to them) where they should be. Ergo, across the white line is ‘the other side’ and so they won’t think to drive like this at all. On country lanes it’s necessary where you can to drive like this.

Your video / conversation really brings out some good learning points... both for me as a driver and a 'group cyclist'. A similar scenario occurs regularly on the many 'small single track' roads we have in our rural counties. Drivers will almost always try and 'squeeze past' an oncoming cyclis without taking a moment to stop and let them pass. I've also noticed when i'm out cycling that drivers now do generally give me that 1.5m clearance when overtaking, which is great, but seem to do it at the expense of putting themselves on the wrong side of the road, in the face of oncoming vehicles....which are quite often travelling quite legitamately at or near the national speed limit....i don't think i'm particularly at risk at that point, its more I 'fear' that i might witness a significant head on collision right in front of my eyes....

@winnie6354

2 жыл бұрын

Could you as a group cyclist explain why you as a lone cyclist cannot ride on the left of the road - yet in a group 2 or 3 abreast it is perfectly safe to do so?

@christaylor751

2 жыл бұрын

@@winnie6354 can you rephrase your question i don't understand it ...

@CalumOH

2 жыл бұрын

@@christaylor751 In my area the national speed limit roads are full of bends and steep hills which makes it a dangerous place for cyclists to ride and yet they do it anyway. With cars going 60mph or sometimes with idiots going above, I don't understand why they put themselves in that danger especially when at my area there is a cycle path that runs alongside the road that gets rarely used. I've seen plenty of what you witness, mainly cars trying to dangerously overtake cyclists but also I've seen cyclists nearly taken out by cars. Why risk yourself on a high speed road?

Seriously advocating driving on the wrong side of the road approaching a bend ! Madness.

Taken from the highway code # leave at least 1.5 metres when overtaking cyclists at speeds of up to 30mph, and give them more space when overtaking at higher speeds It just does not apply in this case

With the cyclists, surely you would have eased off the speed just the same if they were properly two abreast? I mean, they were kind of, sort of 3 abreast, but not really. Look at the 2 cyclists at the front. Imagine a third one next to them. He would need to be almost on the centre line. They’re double file, slightly staggered, which is quite a common way to ride for cycling tourists.

Nice driving, but I think action was needed by the cyclists. I think Rule 66, para 2 of the Highway Code applies here: the cyclists need to 'be considerate of the needs of other road users when riding in groups'. By riding three abreast they created a dangerous situation which you handled well.

@nickmoore5105

2 жыл бұрын

As a cyclist I agree, 3 abreast is not on.

@alane7903

2 жыл бұрын

They're not

@Ian_Livesey

2 жыл бұрын

I hate three-breasted cyclists

@davidellis8141

2 жыл бұрын

@@jav.7611 Ashley said three abreast and needed room to fall off, if they ride single file in middle of lane as now recommended they won’t be able to fall in their lane. Trouble is cyclists usually ride in pairs chatting and are supposed to move over for faster vehicles but don’t, this is why Highway Code changes are gross stupidity. Many cyclists now think they own the road as before and do as they please without taking responsibility for their actions.

@thegrowl2210

2 жыл бұрын

@@Ian_Livesey Do you live near a radioactive lake by any chance?

By all means use all of the road on approach to a left hand bend , being ready to sacrifice cornering position if anything appears . You gain the advantages of an earlier view around the bend and wider turning circle . For right hand bends the earliest view is gained by holding well to the left ; most often I would not cut across a right hand bend since the advantages are minimal ; most people turn in too early for right hand bends .

Love the way you protected the cycles….well done …..but we really need to get cycles off the road !

I am a cyclist. I was a driver and motorcyclist for many years, but due to a diagnosis of epilepsy, no longer have a driving licence. Mostly what I would like from car drivers is some kind of recognition that I am not just another piece of road furniture. The only way I can tell this from my point of view is if a driver either gives me more space or slows down or both. With oncoming traffic in narrow lanes, it is often the case that drivers will be closer to me than the verge on their own side of the road, often at potentially fatal speeds, often close enough for me to touch their wing mirror without having to stretch... Looking at their faces, you can see them thinking "I mustn't scratch my car on the hedge, but this cyclist will get over" with no consideration of the state of the road to my left (usually pot holes, gravel etc). Sometimes I can slow them a little by taking the lane, but if it doesn't work, this could end very badly and some drivers are just as likely to accelerate as slow. As a motorcyclist, I rode about 40,000 miles a year (I was a motorcycle instructor) and hadn't had an accident in 25 years. As a cyclist, I have been forcibly run off the road 3 times in 3 years and hit by a van (while stationary after he came around a corner too fast to stop and didn't have room to squeeze by me, even though I had stopped hard up against the hedge once I saw him coming (he could have seen me at the same time I saw him, if he had looked). I love the attitude that you show in your videos and wish more drivers could take pride in being a decent human being, like yourself, rather than feeling that shaving half a second off their journey time is more important than my life! Keep up the good work.

@andrewnorris5415

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, could not agree more! I drove A LOT before taking up cycling. And had little idea how hard and dangerous it was for cyclists and how just a little patience and care from drivers goes a long way. Ash is indeed amazing in bringing this to people's attention.

@BaldMancTwat

2 жыл бұрын

One thing I will point out too, is I used to only ride mountain bikes, sometimes with full suspension, and I had never ridden a "racing style" bike before. So I never understood cyclists not wanting to go over small bumps, etc. because it was never an issue on a mountain bike, but having tried a racing style bike once, I now understand that those style of bikes are, way faster, but also they are really quite awful to ride on a rough surface.

@dakrontu

2 жыл бұрын

If you swerve enough to hit a hedge, you can't see the road surface, it can be full of mud, overlaying collapsed tarmac, and your car can go out of control. Something to remember if you want to teach drivers a lesson by approaching them close to the centre line when you have a whole lane on your side. Country roads in my area (Fens) are deadly, often with collapsed tarmac edges or deep pot holes, and precipitous drops into either a field or a canal.

@dakrontu

2 жыл бұрын

@@michaelbroderick527 Cyclist turned right without hand signal? You should try Victoria Road in Cambridge, where they leap out of side-streets into the traffic flow. Why would you expect hand signals? How many of them, young ones particularly, do you think have ever seen a Highway Code? Too young to appreciate their mortality.

The rule says 'when overtaking';. It doesn't mention anything about when travelling in the opposite direction, as far as I can see. It's also a 'should' rule, not a 'must' rule, so surely you couldn't be directly prosecuted for not obeying it?

@Velodrone

2 жыл бұрын

You can be prosecuted for careless driving or for driving without due care and attention. The Highway Code provides guidance, but it is not the law nor is it an exhaustive list of the circumstances that would constitute breaking the law. Police/CPS can and do prosecute for close passes of oncoming cyclists

@adamspencer95

2 жыл бұрын

@@Velodrone So why are the vehicles prosecuted but the cyclists aren't? As in this situation, the cyclists were cycling carelessly and without consideration for other road users. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, yes?

@Velodrone

2 жыл бұрын

@@adamspencer95 the cyclists are not putting anyone else in danger by what they are doing there. I rather doubt that you'd be prosecuted for driving past on the other side of the road without 1.5m in this circumstance - but if you revved up to max speed a drove as close to the line as you could then it's possible. The general measure is whether the way in which you are driving or cycling is likely to cause danger or harm to others. If it is, then you risk prosecution. If it's not, then generally you don't.

@chrispop99

2 жыл бұрын

@@Velodrone I understand all of those things, but the title of this video contains the question 'could you be prosecuted', and in relation to passing closer than 1.5 metres when travelling in the opposite direction, I believe the answer is no.

@adamspencer95

2 жыл бұрын

@@Velodrone The cyclists did not comply with rule 66, as they did not consider other road users when cycling in groups. Careless cycling.

Interesting regarding the off siding around a corner, I’ve been pulled over by the police who asked why I ‘was drifting onto the wrong side of the road.’ They were mainly checking I wasn’t drunk but they suggested that crossing the broken white line without reason was potentially driving with a lack of due care and attention.

Responsibility goes both ways. Take yours seriously, then be ready to account for those that can not.

From a cycling point of view, passing, closely to oncoming vehicles is way less stressful than them overtaking you closely. Personally don't feel like the minimum passing distance applies.

@ashley_neal

2 жыл бұрын

If the reasoning of "just in case they came off" is relevant it must apply for both directions.

@marklittler784

2 жыл бұрын

Cyclist would probably feel less stressed if they had mirrors so they had a better idea of the amount of room passing vehicles were able to give them are going to give them and whether your causing a large queue that would benefit from you pulling over.

@neomaster341

2 жыл бұрын

@@marklittler784 A right hand mirror is a must have for boosting awareness when road cycling. Although, mine tends to make me feel more stressed, not less.

@SODtv

2 жыл бұрын

@@neomaster341 "Objects in the rear view mirror appear closer than they are".....is probably the cause of the stress ;-)

@paulstevens9409

2 жыл бұрын

@@ashley_neal So how come the same rule doesn't apply to motorcyclists? Or perhaps it does?

Off siding on public roads should be discouraged. Its not a racetrack, its unnecessary and there is a possibility of something you can't see around the bend e.g. maybe someone is lying in the road after another incident.

Good point that, I will admit I did not think of, but I cant think of many times I've been in a situation like that on a fast moving road.

I suggest you get some retraining as 1.5m space applies to overtaking & those cycling was legal, not hogging & in their lane. If you struggle overtaking them then there's no room or safe to overtake like as if it was a slower moving motor vehicle.

I see the comments are cyclist based, but I'm 24s in and wondering "what about the should give 2m space from the guy who is standing in the road at the truck?" ;-)

I'm not sure if they are three abreast - for a constant time. Not arguing it. I think maybe they were changing position at the time. This can happen if you riding in formation (so no one is on the front all the time) or are moving someone to in draft to get them home (tiredness). But there is some kind of half wheeling going on here. That can be dangerous because if the rider in front moves for a pot hole then they can hit the wheel behind and send multiple riders in different direction. Always keep a good distance from the rider in front. Slowing down is a good idea as you are creating less wake and can also make a move better if something was to happen.

@bazzacuda_

2 жыл бұрын

That was my thought, they were riding 2-abreast generally and someone has taken the opportunity to go out of formation from the back to say something to the front pair while there was nobody trying to overtake. It might be "knock it down, Bob is struggling" or "do you want us to take a turn?" Or one of any number of reasons. People seem to be assuming from 3 seconds of footage that they were riding like that the whole ride.

@ThatBloodyCyclist

2 жыл бұрын

@@bazzacuda_ yes definitely. When riding I try to rotate everyone on the front for max 5 minutes. I explain how we will rotate before we start the ride and that riders have to manage it themselves so I'm not shouting from the back. Doing that makes riders perform so much better and be so much happier. Group riding is so different from solo. Like you, I went back and forth on that video a number of times and can't workout what is happening.

The other day I was driving my Motohome through a strange to me town. It was dark and raining. I drove slowly looking out for pedestrians etc. knowing I’m responsible for there actions. The new Highway Code has me being more careful.

On the off-siding approach, this is something I do in a bus & coach. The main advantage here I aim for in these situations is making the ride more comfortable for the passengers, the lateral forces seem exaggerated in a PSV due to much less (or none at all) lateral support in the seats. Buses also tend to roll a lot, so mitigating this with a more relaxed angle through a bend again helps with the comfort. This is also encouraged by our RoSPA certified drivers, keeps the left wheels out of the cruddy, rough part of the carriageway, further improving passenger comfort. I suppose a minor plus is that less retarding is required before and consequently less acceleration needed after the bend; this may just save a little extra fuel, which can really add up when a 9-13L Diesel is concerned.

Could we see some more videos of you doing instructor lessons? It’s really interesting to see the higher level training

@winnie6354

2 жыл бұрын

This is certainly not a video showing a higher level of training. Cutting off corners , not exactly advanced driving.

So, by placing themselves in danger, the cyclist caused another road user to change speed? 3 abreast on that road seems reckless? If you had positioned yourself up against the white line, perhaps to avoid a deep pothole you saw at the last minute and which could have altered your path, and forced them to move in order to be safe they would have criticised you?

@dubster82

2 жыл бұрын

They're not actually three abreast. The chap in the red jacket is behind, not along side. It just looks that way because of perspective. If you look at their position to the darker portion of the road the position of the two riders are only inches different.

@peterdixon6807

2 жыл бұрын

@@dubster82 call it 2 ¾? The point Ashley is making still applies.

@MrManningata

2 жыл бұрын

@@dubster82 they are definitely three abreast, if you pause at 1:53 you can see the chap in the red jacket, then next to him the chap in the dark red jacket, and then the guy with the yellow gloves. Even if it was two abreast, the point still stands that they have chosen to ride very close together, and close to the dividing line causing other road users to avoid them.

@ColinSmith2001

2 жыл бұрын

@@dubster82 They really were in pairs and the perception that makes people think they weren't seems to be a thing that creates issues.

@dubster82

2 жыл бұрын

@@peterdixon6807 em, no... There is 2 people side by side, then two people behind them side. There isn't one partial sized person alongside. The point is, 2 abreast is apparently fine and cyclists argue its safer. But it isn't, because that's how close cyclists can be to passing cars. If we're going to say you have to leave 1.5m gap then cyclists should allow it too.

On offsiding, one thing I always make clear to people I am coaching is that we never go offside whilst blind in order to obtain a view, we only go offside to MAINTAIN a view we already have. Perfect examples here, but worthy of mentioning so that any DVSA pupils watching don't get confused by the matter!

@ashley_neal

2 жыл бұрын

Why is this? 👍🏼

@hughraynor8670

2 жыл бұрын

@@ashley_neal It comes back to being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. If you're moving offside around a blind bend in order to obtain a view, you're inherently putting your car into a position where you currently have no view. Getting offside early ensures that we already have the view at the time we move out, and we use our positioning to maintain that view and vehicle stability throughout the bend(s).

@ashley_neal

2 жыл бұрын

Good explanation which will be helpful to many in the meantime. I am going to do a video on the subject as a few people have mentioned my position over the white line approaching the left bend. As you say there's no in the world that you should be even close to the centre line when you are at the left-hand bend, but taking the position really early allows an early assessment of round the corner with a gradual glide back to the nearside lane to negotiate the turn. As always your comments add value and discussion to the channel. 🙏

@shm5547

2 жыл бұрын

@@ashley_neal You've got that wrong. You should be close to the centre line on a left-hand bend to increase your view, but not over it, and ready to move back in for oncoming traffic. Offsiding should only be used by emergency responders. It's primary benefit is to increase vanishing point on a left-hand bend so you can carry more speed. In normal driving, it is far, far, safer to reduce your speed instead. It's ok to use the full width of the road to straighten slight wiggles if there's no other traffic about, but you must have full view of the road ahead and not be using it to extend a vanishing point. It's also ok to slightly offside when passing a side road on the left, to create a safety margin in case of emerging vehicles, but only if there's no waiting traffic or it could cause confusion.

Part of the problem, is that many drivers can literally no longer remember what it is like to be a pedestrian or cyclist. Many have spent multiple decades never carrying a burden, never being rained on, never being out of breath, never being afraid of the traffic, hot cold or tired, instead just sitting slack and safe in an armoured, perfumed, warm carriage. Drivers, in many cases are not actually capable of exercise any more, and cannot even recall it properly. Perspective becomes difficult at that point.

@Paul1962

2 жыл бұрын

The same can be said of pedestrians or cyclists that have never driven a car, it comes with a huge number of responsibilities. You are not just sitting slack by any stretch of the imagination.

@mathewgurney2033

2 жыл бұрын

@@Paul1962 Slack as feck.

Only just watched this with sound on. Those cyclists clearly were just riding in pairs offset from the riders in front. 3 abreast would have seen them at best really straggle the white line, it just wouldn't fit. I do think the points raised are valid ( and the slowing was very good, its what I would do) but continually banging on about 3 abreast is just lazy analysis and unhelpful, it's just a dog whistle for morons. I have ridden in groups for 25years plus, 3 abreast by the average club rider just wouldn't work. You may see it briefly when a rider pulls off the front but on almost all roads it would mean going to to or over the white lines so needs some careful obs both forward and back first.

Riding 3 or 4 abreast can be perfectly valid and legal. A solo cyclist overtaking a group, or a group overtaking a group, for example. However, these cyclists were not riding 3 abreast, it was an untidy bunch and one rider was a bit far out, but that is all. It's worth remembering that speed limits are based on optimal road conditions. If there are vulnerable road users ahead, then conditions are no longer optimal and speed should be reduced accordingly, the number of abreast riders is irrelevant.

@Ober1kenobi

2 жыл бұрын

No it’s not. If you’re forcing drivers to automatically break the law and impede traffic, you’re in the wrong for impeding the flow of traffic to begin with ya flog - A fellow cyclist

@Jasontvnd9

2 жыл бұрын

Your comment is very interesting.... You basically admitted the cyclist was causing a danger by riding three abreast but then said it was the car driver who would have to inherent full responsibility for that behaviour. Passing the buck?

@shm5547

2 жыл бұрын

@@Jasontvnd9 I said they were riding 2 abreast (a bit untidy though), and yes, the car driver is the greater danger, so they bear a greater responsibility. You don’t have the right to a clear road ahead! You must drive so you can stop for any obstacle that might appear in front of you.

@Jasontvnd9

2 жыл бұрын

@@shm5547 Who was responsible won't matter if you are dead. The responsibility of everyone on the road is to take defensive measures to protect themselves no matter if you legally are responsible or not. When a light is green at a busy junction I still check to my right and left despite the fact I have right of way. A little bit of common sense.

@shm5547

2 жыл бұрын

@@Jasontvnd9 unfortunately there's a limit to how defensive you can be on a bicycle. You are vulnerable and reliant on motorists to behave appropriately, that’s why drivers are only permitted to operate a dangerous machine by licence.

An excellent explanation!

Very good analytical video

This directly contradicts with your previous video, where you overtook (not slowly) entirely in the oncoming lane with cyclists riding 2 abreast, with the 2nd cyclist very close to the middle of the road.

@ashley_neal

2 жыл бұрын

It actually is the opposite and it backs it up. Some cyclists need to do more to ensure motorists can pass while giving the correct space else some motorists get into the habit of "I don't always have to do it". If you don't understand this point you need to as it's there to create better habits from all road users.

@adamspencer95

2 жыл бұрын

@@ashley_neal I agree with the sentiment, but the actuality shows the opposite. If accelerating to overtake is fine within that space, why do you insist on slowing down to a crawl for cyclists coming the opposite way?

@adamspencer95

2 жыл бұрын

@UCeQ9L72F2l4rF_L6QNzeHoQ For oncoming cyclists you have *essentially zero* impact on how much space you give them. So, the distance Ashley gave when overtaking is less/equivalent to the distance when passing oncoming cyclists. So why is overtaking at this distance fine, but you should slow to a crawl when cyclists are travelling in the opposite direction?

@kenbrown2808

2 жыл бұрын

@@adamspencer95 two words: velocity differential.

@adamspencer95

2 жыл бұрын

@@kenbrown2808 If the issue is about the cyclist falling over (as seems to be suggested) then that is entirely irrelevant.

1:12 I'd wonder how many people would call the police for drink driving if you're constantly going over the white line for a better view/less wear/etc

@mrslowly9985

2 жыл бұрын

I'd be giving 10 car lengths. That type of driving shows the driver infront can't read the road and doesn't know how to balance or position a car correctly.

@thomasnichol5127

2 жыл бұрын

@@mrslowly9985 Actually it shows the opposite. Driving like that requires a strong ability to read the road and balance a car correctly. It is taught in advanced driving courses (the civilian courses being a reduced version of what police pursuit drivers are taught).

Great video. I hate driving country lanes. This video really helps

Thanks. I never thought of having to keep the distance from cyclists on the other lane, too.

Have I got to get the tape measure out

@ashley_neal

2 жыл бұрын

Common sense will do!

@melgrant7404

2 жыл бұрын

@@ashley_neal 😊😊

I will admit since they introduced the changes, it did make me wonder about that especially as many roads I travel on here in the Cotswolds don't allow for 1.5 metres in either direction and most of the bends you can't see across, so this will add to the entertainment come the tourist season.

@alexwoodroffe9477

2 жыл бұрын

It's good to see the changes have made people wonder - after all, the need for 1.5m space is not new; it's been around far longer than these changes! When I'm on my cargobike taking the kids to school on the country lanes near me, I don't expect 1.5m room as there just isn't that much space. What I do expect is drivers waiting to overtake on straights ideally at the widest point and, most importantly, having a similar relative speed to me when overtaking. And nearly all of the drivers do this very easily. When drivers are coming in the opposite direction, I expect similar with regards to speed. On my bike, I will pull into a passing point to facilitate an oncoming vehicle getting past and expect them to do the same if they have a passing point. When I'm driving, I drive to these standards too - and if I see a cyclist coming the other way on the narrow lane, I will come to a complete stop if I have to in order to ensure that they can get past as safely as possible. Recently, It was frustrating when a few cyclists went past the passing point on their side of the road despite me coming towards them already established on the straight. So I just stopped and let them get past safely. My arms may have been thrown up in an exasperated shrug as it was a pretty selfish manoeuvre from them, but also worth remembering it's not a big issue - it cost me seconds of time and that's it.

@Theactivepsychos

2 жыл бұрын

Just drop your speed. That’s the rule. The closer you are the slower you go. No matter their direction of travel.

@PedroConejo1939

2 жыл бұрын

^^^ These two comments ^^^

@garyrowe58

2 жыл бұрын

@@Theactivepsychos driving must be such a chore for you when there is oncoming traffic, and for everyone behind you ;)

@Theactivepsychos

2 жыл бұрын

@@garyrowe58 did you just wink at me? I think I missed it but also I’m pretty certain you did. That aside, I’m not totally sure what you’re saying. Have you completely misunderstood what I said?

In principle I prefer cyclists when out in a group to ride as if they are a slow moving large vehicle and I would treat them in the same way, with of course a 1.5m+ clearance. Whichever direction the cyclists are travelling in, the primary reason for giving them a wide berth is because the air wake from a motor vehicle can upset them and make them unstable, its probably not because they are going to fall over in front of the vehicle, if that were the case then 1.5m is insufficient. Drivers must be conscious of the turbulence they cause when passing other road/footpath users. As a pedestrian I have been sucked into the road by a truck passing me quite closely (the road width gave him no choice) as I walked along a narrow pavement. It was the speed of the truck that caused all the issues not the unfortunate but necessary proximity. I always give horses as much room as physically possible when passing and pass them at slow speed, my reason for this is partisan, I don't want to spook the horse and end up with hoof prints in one of my panels.

Note head-on speeds are much faster. It has been said the difference between 30 and 40 mph for a ped (and cyclist) impact drastically reduces the chances of death. Well done Ash. Cyclists can get moved by wind or potholes. Ash lost little in slowing down for a moment. We should be prepared to reduce the speed at any moment when things become more dangerous. That is the sign of a good driver. Some just keep going at the same speed regardless.

@randombanditdad3754

2 жыл бұрын

Cars can also be effected by potholes i would never cycle near middle of road on country lanes its just not safe to do so

I understand the reason and need to give cyclists a 1.5/2m gap when overtaking them, however what I don't understand is the way this requirement goes away when it suits the cyclist and they are overtaking/undertaking another vehicle. Indeed the highway code changes, by giving priority to cyclists going straight at a junction over vehicles turning, is encouraging cyclists to make dangerous overtake/undertakes, creating out of very little space additional lanes of traffic that the motorist is expected to notice and give way too seems to be a recipe for disaster (especially know that the motorist is also expected to be a mind reader of the intentions of predestines as well).

@steveNCB7754

2 жыл бұрын

That’s a point I’ve thought about mentioning before as well. Particularly in urban/suburban settings where, as you say, cyclists are quite happy to discard the 1.5m clearance so they can squeeze through (playing fast and loose with everybody’s paintwork) lines of cars at traffic lights. They get to the front (whether there is a waiting box or not) and when the lights change, face the prospect of being re-overtaken all over again (safely of course!) until the next set of lights.

@DasArab

2 жыл бұрын

" I don't understand is the way this requirement goes away when it suits the cyclist and they are overtaking/undertaking another vehicle. " When a car travelling at 50 mph overtakes a cyclist there is a large amount of air movement. This air movement is more than enough to knock a cyclist off. So if you turn that on its head what's the chance of a cyclist overtaking/undertaking a car at 10 mph knocking the motorist off the road?

@adamspencer95

2 жыл бұрын

@@DasArab What's the chance of causing another road user to need to change speed or direction (or indeed causing damage to vehicles) when whizzing through tiny gaps?

@kenbrown2808

2 жыл бұрын

@@adamspencer95 or hitting a pothole and being ejected from the bicycle. in the states, it is specified that if a cyclist chooses to crowd a car, they do so at their own risk.

@DasArab

2 жыл бұрын

@@adamspencer95 No idea, do tell me. Filtering is perfectly legal in the UK. if your not happy about that take it up with your MP and have him try to get that changed.

I'd do the same if I was driving, just slow down and pass with care. If I was cycling no way would I be riding 3 abreast with oncoming cars , in fact I probably would be single file but taking my fair space of the road as a defensive measure but I then able to move in if needed. Cycling on the road is not fun and it is dangerous, no need to make it more dangerous than it needs to be.

@lawrenceholden5716

2 жыл бұрын

Many years ago, cycling alone on a country lane, well into the side as it was quite busy, a Jaguar's wing mirror brushed my arm. There was a 50 mph limit and most drive about that speed. It shook me up thinking what would have happened if my sleeve had caught or if he had come slightly to the left and had me off. I stopped cycling then.

@FlyingFun.

2 жыл бұрын

@@lawrenceholden5716 I had same happen to me ( a mini ) but the bike was my mates and not great and I was going fairly fast maybe 20mph, the resulting wobble had me over the handle bars and resulted in brocken cheek bone, damaged eye and head injuries which still bother me 30 years later. The driver just drove off, never even slowed down let alone stop to help, next driver along was a doctor and he sorted out an ambulance. Roads are not safe for cyclists.

@lawrenceholden5716

2 жыл бұрын

@@FlyingFun. Thank goodness that a Doctor was behind and got you sorted, could have been much worse. Pity didn't get car number, would have been a fair bit of compensation awarded there and driver would probably have been banned for not stopping at the scene of an accident. Main thing is you're alive though.

@FlyingFun.

2 жыл бұрын

@@lawrenceholden5716 these days head cam would have got the number but didn't have that back then, There were 4 men in the car and they had been drinking in the pub where had stopped for lunch, I never pursued it because I was in hospital for a good while but thinking back it might have been possible to trace the driver from CCTV at the pub if they had any. Got no compensation and was out of action for months and self employed so no sick pay etc but main thing is I lived to tell the tale.. I wont cycle on the road now though if there is any other choice, and when I do I ride in a very defensive way making sure I take room that's needed to stop people sqeasing past if there is oncoming traffic, I ride it much like I was taught to ride a motorcycle in that respect.

The trouble with “off siding” is that some people may make it habitual, in which case they may well become a danger to other road users. Not everyone is capable of driving with the same diligence as you. Understatement!

This video has made me interested in talking an advanced driving course/test, have you done any videos on it? I’d really love to take this test however I can’t help but remember the nerves that taking my standard driving test brought, albeit over 4 years ago, and if I were to fail my advanced test I feel that I was, in a way, unroadworthy and dangerous.

@bramelsheretan

2 жыл бұрын

save yourself some money and find a good driving instructor instead. Most advanced curses are just above standard driving, it's only when you pass those can you move up to the more advanced driving such as John Lyons. Honestly, go out with a driving instructor and just refresh your techniques, cheaper and better suited to the driving of today

Its interesting to point out that in New Zealand (another left hand side driving country) doing what you're doing by cutting the corners would lead you to a prosecution by the police. It's an illegal practice out there as I witnessed when travelling around the country in 2012 🤔

@hicky62

2 жыл бұрын

The only country I've been drug/driving tested. Happened in 2011 coming from a Fat Freddie's Drop gig.

@MegaRugster

2 жыл бұрын

It's an interesting conversation here as well, technically, if there is noone coming towards you and noone closely following you.. then there is noone to see you driving dangerously.. if there is and you still cut corners.. there are, because you are. Using the whole road to your advantage is exactly that, it isn't to your advantage to do it on a blind corner, a friend of mine was killed cycling to work by a car that was just on his side of the road coming around a corner, he had decided to go on the right hand side of a metal man hole cover just before the bend, where there was well known pot holes. The coroner believes he was killed on impact. The driver didn't think he was driving dangerously, he was only he claims doing 30 mph.. he just didn't see the cyclist. He was given a 3 yr ban.. for murder.

@nearlyretired7005

2 жыл бұрын

@@MegaRugster It would not be murder! You have missed the point,you don't understand.

@georgelane6350

2 жыл бұрын

@@hicky62 drug driving tests aren't legal in New Zealand. The law is just about to change to allow them. Source: I'm a practicing road safety engineer

@raftonpounder6696

2 жыл бұрын

If it’s a broken white line it’s perfectly legal to cross it.

I wouldn't really call that "Three abreast", much more like two - BUT, I always feel wary of cyclists in a pack on the road riding so closely together. It's not something I do. I get why they do it, and it's all very much in the style of efficient pack riding, but it's too easy to pile into the back of the one ahead, which makes the potential fall that Ashley describes being far more likely than if they were more safely spaced. That's what I think, anyway.

@JamesSmith-vz8yr

2 жыл бұрын

He should have wound the window down and shouted "Single file you lycra clad Muuuuuuuuuuupets!" in their direction.

@kidkarbon4775

2 жыл бұрын

@@JamesSmith-vz8yr surprisingly that happens a lot more than you would actually think 😂 it's usually followed by a discussion regarding why it always seems to be the blokes who look most in need of some exercise that do it. 🤣 Just so funny watching some lard breaking a sweat trying to manoeuvre himself to the window to hurl abuse.

@bazzacuda_

2 жыл бұрын

And yet, organised group riding works! I've been bowling along at 30mph+ in a group riding closely, the communication internally and everyone looking out for each other works with very few accidents.

@ezeekwheel

2 жыл бұрын

If more safely spaced then means much bigger ‘object’ for drivers to overtake making it much more dangerous. Straddling a rider like that and poking out a bit mean they can see hazards react quicker and take less space (length) on the road. Good group etiquette you shout out hazards, potholes, when you’re going to speed up or slow or stop. Everyone knows exactly what’s happening.

@ezeekwheel

2 жыл бұрын

@@kidkarbon4775 😂😂😂😂hahahaah could not be more true. They get out of breath just putting the window down

I don't agree that they were three abreast. The rider in red on the outside two back is out further into the road, but there is only one rider on their inside. However, I do understand the point that this creates a problem for oncoming vehicles when you consider the rules on the room that drivers should leave cyclists. I'm sure that like so many things to do with road use it is impossible to have a hard set of the rules where it 100% clear in all circumstances.

Brilliant Ashley. I’ve been an ADI since November and still learning how to teach. My phrase is “Less space, less pace” Should the cyclists also have filed back to single file as well as you slowing down?

@ashley_neal

2 жыл бұрын

For me single file wasn't necessary, but tucking in a little to keep safe probably was!

@thesmiffable

2 жыл бұрын

by the time they shuffeled into single file, the car would have been long past

Thank you for all learning points. Cyclists were however, two abreast…it’s purely perspective that makes the group seem like they’re 3 abreast

Even as someone who regularly cycles narrow country lanes and sometimes experiences the perils of drivers who don't want to put a wheel in the dirt or slow down, I'm not sure i would see the hazard with these cyclists because of the centreline marking - but you are quite right cyclists in groups can easily fall without warning

@ascelot

Жыл бұрын

But cyclists like any other road user should be aware of their own dangers and risks and not force it upon other road users, if its not safe to ride 3 abreast, dont do it.

As a pedestrian at a junction I'm still giving way to vehicles! Unless that driver waves me across I ain't moving!

Difficult situation you were in but handled well all you can really do is slow down a bit as you did. But like you said just 1 of the reasons for the 1.5m, Initial proposed changes were up to 30mph - 1.5m over 30mph - 2m, if your on the ground the speed probably wont change the outcome although already being 1.5m away makes additional avoidance much more effective Id say its more about being a safety buffer to allow maneuvering room like mentioned in Highway code 212 and 213. Even in good conditions a bicycle doesn't follow a completely straight line like a car it will sway a bit naturally, is amazing how much a gust of wind can move you across a road. Also there small defects in the road that are simply not visible from a distance that you wouldn't even feel in a car that you may need to avoid or if you hit it could knock you off course, roads where I am are atrocious. As well as drain covers when wet etc etc Especially at night typical cycle lights don't really light up the road that much, Or if they do they tend to also blind everyone else (saving for a German StVZO light)

Is there any rule on how much space a cyclist needs when next to another cyclist? Seems like more danger from one of them clipping each other and forcing them into the oncoming lane.

@wrightwoodwork

2 жыл бұрын

There isn't a rule it comes down to trust

I’m pro cycling, tho off-road if possible personally. But shouldn’t they be 1.5 m from each other also !!!!!

@SODtv

2 жыл бұрын

1.5m from each other????? How so?

@andyalder7910

2 жыл бұрын

1.5 m does not apply to cyclists riding two abreast. they can be considered a single vehicle. Since riding three abreast is unacceptable then the third is overtaking the other two so should be 1.5 m from them.

@electricboi9319

2 жыл бұрын

A 2 ton motor vehicle poses more danger than a

@cyclecam6328

2 жыл бұрын

Passing another cyclist I'll give more space, but if we're in the same group then we can act as a single vehicle and with some in comfortable being within 6 inches front and sides

@grahvis

2 жыл бұрын

There is a big difference between a cyclist passed by another cyclist traveling at a higher speed of 5mph and one being passed by a motorist at a higher speed of 30-40mph..

The cyclist falling under your wheels was a tad OTT. The only time I've come anywhere near close to doing that is when my chain slipped while riding out of the saddle. Unless the cyclist is almost stopped their forward momentum could carry them anywhere on entire width of road, so the only safe course would be come to a stop until they've passed you. I've experienced more stuff falling from lorries & punctured tyres while driving - if that degree of risk aversion is required, we'd all be quicker walking.

I ride my scooter to work through country lanes and so far this winter, I have been blinded by cyclists with their million candle power flashing head light, cycling up hill swaying their beam across both lanes. I have met groups of dog walkers on blind bends with no high viz clothing with their dogs on extended leads that allow the dogs right across the road. At 20mph on a tight bend I slowed down as I could see their torch only to have the walker stare straight at me with their mega bright head torch and blind me so I had to make an emergency stop. There really needs to be some levelling up of responsibility here.

Sorry Ashley but those cyclist were not riding three abreast, they where definitely two abreast but not in the neatest formation.

@peterdixon6807

2 жыл бұрын

Irrelevant. 2 ¾ abreast or three cyclists wide doesn’t matter - the point Ashley is making is important and relevant however pedantic you want to be.

@kevinmccann8239

2 жыл бұрын

Completely agree: they’re not riding 3 abreast. Where Ashley freezes the video at ~3:35 you can see they’re in 2 x 2 formation: perfectly acceptable riding position. Good form from both Ashley and group of cyclists.

Remember its not always the driver thats at fault when a cyclists gets hit. Its important to keep 1.5 m distance, but there is also a responsibly of the cyclists not to do something stupid. I dont think this lead to a prosecution as you were staying in your lane, what are you suppose to do, drive into the henge?

@ashley Interesting comment. I never thought of it that way. But, does that also mean if a motor cycle is coming the other way, using the full width of there lane mean we have to slow down. Bearing in mind that the motorcyclist is lower on the hierarchy in the highway code?

@garymitchell5899

2 жыл бұрын

You wouldn't have thought of it that way because he's totally wrong.

As a cyclist, on narrow lanes vehicles coming the other way often pass very close and fast. There is no Highway Code rule against this but it is one of my biggest gripes.

I suspect the cyclists didn't really ride three abreast but were in the process of rearranging their line. That's a fairly common thing to do (the person in front is doing a lot more effort than the people drafting behind). However, even if that's true, the maneuver was poorly timed for sure - it's risky enough if you know there's nobody coming up in either direction (it's one of the more likely moments for wheels to touch, which almost certainly leads to a crash) but in an area where you really can't see what's going on around it's just a bad idea. Nicely handled, though.

@andrewnorris5415

2 жыл бұрын

That is exactly what I thought watching this. Just bad timing to be doing it before a bend.

I had the distinct pleasure of driving within central London earlier this week. As well as the ‘Mad Max’ approach adopted by a significant percentage of drivers, the cyclists seemed to be on a death wish. Passing them safely at a respectable distance was nigh on impossible and resulted in aforesaid road rage fanatics tailgating and performing ridiculously dangerous manoeuvres to get past. Driving safely in the country side is a doddle in comparison.

@jandl1jph766

2 жыл бұрын

That seems to be a recurring theme in major cities... And it's a big part of the reason I don't particularly like driving even in smaller cities. On a bike, I can usually manage to avoid at least the worst of the madness.

@David_Trowbridge

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah man in the city its a free for all you get used to it (only joking) but a lot of the time you just have to apply common sense and make your own decision even if it means bending the rules a bit. If you don't you just get city dickheads like me blaring their horn behind you 😄

@jandl1jph766

2 жыл бұрын

@@David_Trowbridge Don't worry, you'll quickly find us rural folks are plenty stubborn to ignore you 😁

@David_Trowbridge

2 жыл бұрын

@@jandl1jph766 fair doos, I'll get my revenge when I'm slowing you down on the national speed limit country roads with my unfamiliarity haha

@jandl1jph766

2 жыл бұрын

@@David_Trowbridge And that's how it always goes...

The main topic is well aired in these comments and it would be easy to overlook holding back to let approaching car pass parked van on their side (at 3.50). An everyday situation that usually works well to mutual convenience if both drivers are on the same wavelength but have found that it can lead to an impasse when oncoming driver insists on ‘doing the right thing’ and waiting!

"We're the one with licences" but everyone should follow the highway code.

Here is an Idea, every time we see a cyclist on the road coming the other way, why not stop the car because the cyclist might do something unpredictable. Or even better when cyclists are using a country road like this we should close the road to all motor vehicles, now that would keep the cyclists really safe wouldn’t it. Or maybe the cyclist should be held responsible for their own actions and not create a blame culture against anyone unfortunate to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. …. . Would I have slowed like you did ? *Hell yes* if the rider fell off in front of oncoming traffic would it be his own fault ? *Hell yes* For horses I would slow right down because they can spook and react uncontrollably. But on a fast bendy road like this it would be stupid to take a horse along here because there is fast traffic on blind bends that often won’t be ready to slow down. [most people are not professional drivers and nor would you expect them to be] …… I am sick and tired of people who put themselves at risk then expect the world to protect them and try to blame everyone else for situations that they themselves have created.

@nickmoore5105

2 жыл бұрын

If you’re travelling any road at a speed where you couldn’t slow down if something unexpected was around the corner, you’re going too fast

@robg521

2 жыл бұрын

@@nickmoore5105 Totally agree, but the majority of Road users drive too fast. How many dead cyclists will it take to acknowledge that it is better to *not* create a bad situation in the 1st place rather than to expect others to behave correctly when facing that situation. Rule No1. Don’t put yourself in danger. Rule No2.. refer to rule No1

@w.e.s9711

2 жыл бұрын

Sorry that's no safe enough. You need to also remove your keys from the Ignition until the cyclists have passed by at least 100 meters, just incase they turn around and come back.

@nearlyretired7005

2 жыл бұрын

@@robg521 Drivers drive too slowly when it's safer to drive faster,and drive too fast when they should slow down! The average drivers safety perception and use of speed is poor. Their brains seem to be wired the wrong way round!

@robg521

2 жыл бұрын

@@nearlyretired7005 Yep I agree, and this is born of ignorance, if they really understood car control the inappropriate speed would scare the hell out of them. Ignorance is bliss they say.

Paused at 1:52 ... Those cyclists were NOT "three abreast" Ashley, the person in red with black gloves, is behind the person in grey who in turn is beside the person in red with yellow gloves. This is a common mistake by car drivers who mistaakenly think that cyclists should be riding in each other's wheel tracks. Just 'cos you can from the perspective of the opposite side of the road, see all three faces, does not mean they are three abreast. Poor observation there I'm afraid!

@SynisterNation

2 жыл бұрын

The guy in red's front tyre is along side the rear tire of the guy in front. You need to account for the entire cycle and not just the riders. They were 3 abreast.

@alane7903

2 жыл бұрын

@@SynisterNation You are wrong. The shadow of his wheel passes behind the rear tyre of the person in grey. He is riding a few inches outside the wheel-track and behind: A usual and safe place to ride in a group.

@SynisterNation

2 жыл бұрын

@@alane7903 you can see he moves to where you are describing but starts further forward. You are mistaken.

@alane7903

2 жыл бұрын

@@SynisterNation At 1:50 when they first appear, they are seen from directly in front. You don't have the angle to see whether the rider is partially alongside as you claim. By the time Ashley passes at 1:52, they are not three abreast (as you say, he is where I am describing). Drivers do this all the time, it's akin to the cry that they are "riding in the middle of the road". Understand perspective and you will understand that they are not riding three abreast at any time that interferes with Ashley (what they are doing out of sight of course, we cannot know).

I feel that this is another case that all road users should be doing their best to avoid accidents. In the situation of the cyclists coming from the other direction it seems to me to be the primary responsibility is for the cyclists to ensure that they are safely using the carriage way on their side of the road in a way that does not impact/pose a danger to oncoming traffic . However, a motorist approaching a potential hazard such as this should take reasonable steps to minimise risk, so yes, as in this clip I'd slow down, as I would if it was a larger vehicle that may come nearer/across the centre of the road (or for that matter had spotted from a distance that the oncoming driver was in the habit of cutting corners, as I wouldn't know if it was a safe/skilled driver (such as Ashley) or a drunken idiot. In any case slowing down to pass the potential hazard will likely add very little cost to the journey.

One can only give a cyclist 1.5m if there actually is 1.5m available to give them. If there’s no way that the space could exist (e.g. oncoming on a narrow road) then slowing down is the next best thing, but if cyclists *choose* to ride in a fashion that doesn’t make enough space available then a certain amount of responsibility has to be on them. After all cycles vehicles and like all vehicles they need to adjust speed and position according to the road conditions. (Obviously it’s much easier if the cyclists are going in the same direction - just don’t overtake if you can’t give 1.5m clearance to the outside-most bike).

@garymitchell5899

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly. If the cyclist is being reckless or dangerous then clearly the 1.5m rule cannot necessarily be adhered to.

At 4:26, and forgive me if someone has already mentioned this as I haven't read all the comments, your colleague stated 'We're the ones with Licenses'. Perhaps the cyclists also had 'licences' so should also be cognisant of what vehicle drivers have to deal with sometimes?

@robg521

2 жыл бұрын

Good point, here a thought, how about making it mandatory for cyclists and alike to take a test and get a licence so to use any roads with speed limits above 40MPH. In urban areas traffic should be slow and can react to slower moving chalices horses and pedestrians so they would need a licence. But on a 60MPH road with fast moving traffic on blind bends an uneducated or reckless cyclist could cause some nasty situations.

@robclayton9612

2 жыл бұрын

@@robg521 because it’s not cyclists who kill others. That’s why You don’t spend money (setting up this system costs) trying to addresss an immaterial risk. That’s stupid.

@robg521

2 жыл бұрын

@@robclayton9612 I friend of mine spent 8 months in coma after getting taken out by a cyclist, he was lucky to survive and he is still not right now 6 years later. Maybe you would like to have a chat with him to get his opinion, or maybe ask his wife who had to quit her job to nurse him back to health.

@robclayton9612

2 жыл бұрын

@@robg521 obviously that is a rubbish situation. But what about the 50 people killed by drivers who have passed a test going through red lights? The 1500 a year killed by car drivers who have presumably passed a test? I cannot comment on how that situation came about and you didn’t elaborate, but how would a test to be on 40mph roads help? Lastly I don’t think you understand what is meant by the term “immaterial” in this context. In the context of NATIONAL road safety *cyclists present little to no risk* ie they are not a matierla risk factor for road safety. Motor vehicles constitute the entirety of the material risk. As such you addres those risks While it sucks on an individual level , you don’t make national policy because of one incident affecting two people.

@robg521

2 жыл бұрын

@@robclayton9612 when I am out driving on a country road I always give cyclist a wide berth, and when walking in town I always look out for those idiot cyclists flying past at speed with their head down. and next time I see you on the road I will consider myself at risk and give you an *extra* wide berth for safety. You sound like one of those war mongering types who might start waving heavy objects around. Bye

Nice that you slowed down to keep them safe but surely its largely their own responsibility to keep themselves safe....it's unquestionably safer in single file as they are futher away from oncomming traffic.

@brianbickle7395

2 жыл бұрын

“ their own responsibility “- no, everything’s always someone else’s fault no matter how stupid irresponsible or pig headed you are

4:36 Am I zigzagging unnecessarily? I think I'd have pulled further left until I was sure that there was nothing emerging from the side road on the right.

Cyclists aside, you are effectively taking the racing line through those corners where you have good visibility. I'm surprised, but pleased, to see you approving of this. The point of the racing line is to reduce the forces applied to the car to a minimum; on a race track this then allows the driver to corner faster, but on the road, as you say, it reduces stress and wear on the vehicle. Decades ago I read an article in which Jackie Stewart was measured around a circuit and then the same was done with a new hotshoe driver. The new guy was cornering faster and braking harder than Stewart, but guess what - Stewart's lap times were quicker.

This is a bit of a storm in a teacup. A lot of people seem to be assuming that this 3 seconds of footage is representative of that group's entire ride. I would very much doubt that. The highway code says cyclists should ride no more than two abreast. There is very little to say an interpretation of this, you wouldn't get a lawyer giving you a definite and it has never been tested in court as far as I know. From 3 seconds footage it is impossible to say for certain, that cyclist in the red jacket might not have been with them, could have been overtaking the group in which case the group were riding 2-abreast and the overtaker was overtaking, certainly looked to me like he was going faster than the others. My guess is that there were 6 of them in a group riding 2-abreast, the guy in the red jacket was at the back and has just moved up to say something to the front pair before dropping back into line. Perhaps the guys on the front were getting carried away and the other guy on the back was struggling and he just moved up to tell them to knock the speed down or something. That requires an awareness of what is coming up behind and since 3 cars had just gone past he's obviously chosen that moment. It depends what is meant by "riding." If they were doing the whole ride 3-abreast I'd call that riding, if there was another reason that meant it happened for a short time when no vehicle was behind and the majority of the ride they did 2-abreast then I'd not call that "riding more than two abreast."

@garyrowe58

2 жыл бұрын

My GUESS ...

@bazzacuda_

2 жыл бұрын

@@garyrowe58 At least I say it is a guess, most people are just assuming as fact that it was a group riding 3-abreast the whole time. Is also a guess from my own experience of group riding.

You were very critical of the cyclists' positioning, so it seems like you need to review cycle safety training. The cyclists should be occupying the whole lane to make themselves more visible to approaching drivers and go discourage dangerous passes. Having you perpetuate the myth that cyclists should ride in the gutter emboldens road ragers

@captainwin6333

2 жыл бұрын

They shouldn't be three abreast because if one makes an arse of it he's likely to knock the guys beside him into oncoming traffic. That is simply impossible to do if they all ride in single file. Three abreast on a narrow country road is dangerous cycling because the gap inbetween them must be a matter of inches - less than one foot.

@georgelane6350

2 жыл бұрын

@@captainwin6333 congratulations on getting this far in life without ever paying attention to cycle safety training

@robclayton9612

2 жыл бұрын

@@captainwin6333 wrong. Two abreast is safer. The riders weren’t three abreast

As a cyclist I can tell you we don't want 1.5 mtr passing gap 'in case we fall off', what utter rubbish. We want space because of wind, potholes etc we aren't riding arrow straight and we don't want to get hit when a car passes too close. There is also the issue of wind draft when passed at speed which could in the case of a large vehicle suck us under its wheels. Drivers slow down and give space for horses and pedestrians, just do the same for cyclists.

There are some roads in UK were to leave 1.5 m you would have to drive on top of the hedge or in the fields . All you can do is just stop if they are approaching or follow untill they find a gateway and let you go past which fortunately around were I used to work most local riders would (but some of the entitled tourists riders)would not ☹️

@PedroConejo1939

2 жыл бұрын

Yep. Country lanes can only function with co-operation, but to some that is anathema.

You're involved in driver education? Heaven help us!

@thomasnichol5127

2 жыл бұрын

What was the issue?

@garymitchell5899

2 жыл бұрын

@@thomasnichol5127 The clown saying they could be prosecuted for being less than 1.5m from cyclists coming the other way.

@thomasnichol5127

2 жыл бұрын

@@garymitchell5899 Did anyone actually state that as fact? Seemed to me more like a hypothetical discussion.

@garymitchell5899

2 жыл бұрын

@@thomasnichol5127 Seemed to me he thought it was a genuine possibility. In any case, he was wrong. Let's hope he doesn't teach other people such nonsense.

The "three breast" cyclist scenario really does highlight how poorly thought through and biased the new legislation has turned out. The onus is now entirely on the "powered vehicle" driver to be "considerate" at all times, while pedestrians and cyclists appear to be allowed to behave as they wish. As a pedestrian/driver I try my best to think about how my actions affect others.

@andrewnorris5415

2 жыл бұрын

Sorry I disagree. I thought the code said cyclists must do so only when it is safe. Clearly not safe here, so the code is not to do it? You will always get some road users ignoring the code or just not fully aware of it. Granted, it needs more attention in the press so all are aware of it. So yes, it does seem to be well thought out. But not so well communicated?

Surely the 1.5 metre rule applies to cyclists just the same as it applies to other road users. We often see motorcyclists complain that the car that passed them was too close but they do what they call "filtering" and are really close to the two cars that they are squeezing between as they pass between them. It seems as they have different rules from car drivers.

@jimmyriddle4159

2 жыл бұрын

The difference with filtering is that it’s usually at

@honestchris7472

2 жыл бұрын

@@jimmyriddle4159 5mph, you have to be making a joke and you have the cheek to put an < next to it, I have had motorbikes whizzing between two lines of cars at quite high speeds, if the traffic was slow, then I have no problem at all but when the bikers come flying next to my car that is in reasonably fast moving traffic, I see no difference from when I overtake a bike that going slower. Bikers cant have it all their own way, I had one just two days ago that did exactly that and he pulled a wheelie while he went past.

@jimmyriddle4159

2 жыл бұрын

@@honestchris7472 You didn’t see me whizzing between two lines of cars at quite high speed. 5 mph is fine. It’s basically walking speed. If others want to go faster that’s on them, I can only comment on how I filter.

@honestchris7472

2 жыл бұрын

@@jimmyriddle4159 oh, yet another joke. I did not say that I saw you doing that, I said bikers and by that I meant that a lot of bikers do it. Just look at the motorbike video`s on here and you will see bikes passing cars that are travelling at the correct road speed and being overtaken by motorcyclists on the other side of the road onto oncoming traffic and that forced the overtaking bike to be really close to the cars that it is passing, often way over the speed limit. I obviously was not pointing the finger at you but at what happens a lot when motorcyclists are doing what they call filtering and that is between cars that are doing 30 mph and the bikes passing between them and also on the outside on the other side of the road and a lot faster. Filtering is supposed top be allowed when the traffic is either very slow or stopped but even so, they still risk scratching my car as they pass, it is worse with cyclists because they don`t have registration plates so that we can identify them.

I didn't realise you practice Offsiding, though of course I would imagine not something you would teach to a regular learner pupil to prepare for their test! I realise it's more an "advanced" technique. I often wonder if one would get better fuel economy / greater distance between fill ups by offsiding, as well as less wear and tear on tyres. I still can't bring myself to practice Offsiding and I know it requires very careful constant analysis / observation front and rear each and every time. Also, very nice early and wide positioning to clear the parked cars through the village there from 4:28 onwards.

When I am sitting in slow moving traffic, can I expect a cyclist to leave a 1.5m gap as they scoot up the inside?

@alexwoodroffe9477

2 жыл бұрын

No, why would you expect that? They are legally filtering in accordance with the highway code and there is little to no danger to them or others. Remember, you're driving a multi-ton vehicle that can kill and maim (if I recall, it's around 5 a day). Cyclists kill less than 2 people a year. And if your issue is about your paintwork then, again, look to the statistics. If I recall correctly, it was about 87% of collisions were found to be the driver at fault.

@robclayton9612

2 жыл бұрын

Why would they, when filtering is not the same as being overtaken? Or don’t you understand simple age 16 physics?

@peterthompson9854

2 жыл бұрын

Firstly, I’m not sure they are filtering, but rather undertaking. Secondly, not sure that high school physics is too relevant, plus it sounds like a person insult. (Hopefully a bit beneath you) and thirdly, it sounds like your question is “why should a cyclist share joint responsibility for peoples safety?” But surely I’ve misunderstood.

@robclayton9612

2 жыл бұрын

@@peterthompson9854 1) it’s filtering. Have a look at the hwc 2) physics is of course relevant. If you want a practical demonstrator stand 30cm from a train passing at 50mph and compare that to you walking past a stationary train at 3mph. You could try it out or even apply some thiught and hopefully can then see the difference. 3) no you’re saying a cyclist has equal responsibility which is of course nonsense, because the risk posed BY a cyclist TO a car is almost zero compared to the other way around.

@peterthompson9854

2 жыл бұрын

@@robclayton9612 I'm bored now. You're arguing about points I haven't made. I wasn't talking about cars passing cyclists too closely, clearly this is bad. I posted wondering if I should expect some respect for cyclists when they filter. We have all seen videos of cyclists taking out there frustration on people cars when they feel they have been wronged (mostly posted by the cyclist) and cars are damaged by cyclist filtering too fast and too close. It appears that these actions are OK because they can't kill the car driver. Wrong! Sorry, but all road users have to behave with responsibility (I used the word joint, not equal BTW). Let's all look after each other, and get the chips off our shoulders.

The new rules are "supposed" to help protect cyclists and to me the distancing rule should apply both ways. E.G. stopped at a red light cyclists should should stop behind motor vehicles and not be riding up the inside. It's their safety that is most at risk and they should take responsibility for their actions. No matter who is in the right or wrong, in a collision with a car/van/lorry the motor vehicle will always win! I used to love cycling and riding motorcycles but now in my 6th decade prefer the comfort and relative safety of my car. EVERYONE is ultimately responsible for their own safety and that of others.

@sahhull

2 жыл бұрын

But if everyone is responsible for their own actions.. That doesnt sound like the current snowflake narrative. How will the lawyers make a living? How would the police persecute the motorist when the cyclist did something illegal eg. The cyclist got hit because the cyclist ran the red light? That happened a couple of weeks ago... Only the dash cam saved the driver from the police... Drivers are now guilty until we can prove ourselves innocent.

@daze1945

2 жыл бұрын

@@sahhull Absolutely! So much for presumed innocent until proven guilty! When it comes to pedestrians and cyclists the motorist is always portrayed as the guilty party! I have all around cams and if I screw up then I hold my hands up but when it is not my fault or lack of awareness then I will go all out. Fortunately not needed to so far.

@robclayton9612

2 жыл бұрын

No, because simple physics tells you that 100kg at 5mph filtering past stationary cars weighing 1.8tonnes is NOT the same as a 1.8tonne car overtaking at 30mph 0.5m away from a 100kg cyclist doing 10mph. Or it should be obvious … KE = 0.5mv^2. That equation you learned in gcse physics? Apply it.

@daze1945

2 жыл бұрын

@@robclayton9612 "GCSE"? Your just a kid! Plus you completely missed my point. Well done!

@robclayton9612

2 жыл бұрын

@@daze1945 well they started in 1988, so assuming you call everyone under 34 “kid” you may want to rethink that. Your point was that the distance rule should apply equally, when that is of course a nonsense idea, because the two situations are so completely different as to make comparisons laughable.

I understood that you have to leave cyclists at least 1.5m UP TO 30 mph. when overtaking and more if you're going above 30mph?

The highway code for the 1.5 meters refers to overtaking. However one needs to bear in mind Section 170 Road Traffic Act 1988, should something adversely occur if driving towards ( opposite direction) the cyclists. So yes you could be prosecuted depending on the circumstances.