There's a FGC Translated where Daigo talks about how having a DP changes how he thinks about moving in neutral. He says walking forward is a defensive action when you are looking to anti-air because you can input DP much easier. So when you play the fireball game, you can walk forward offensively to keep your spacing for good fireballs and also have easier reactions to jumps. So walking is a defensive action. This would not matter at all if a DP was just a button press.

@RevGoodWill

3 жыл бұрын

I did some looking around, is it this one? /watch?v=CwS_zJZCWlw

@trapsnake6

3 жыл бұрын

yeah i also remember one situation (again on fgc translated) where Daigo talks about having had a revelation about the fact that red fireball was an agressive tool because you begin from holding forward and regular fireball was defensive because it starts from a crouch(not moving) state... (i may have mangled it, but the premise was similar...

@voltekka47

3 жыл бұрын

@@INSOMNIACification Yeah, but that sounds super lame, so no.

@magicalgirl1296

3 жыл бұрын

@@voltekka47 I feel like it's an equally valid opinion to think that dp motions are lame, but if you've been playing fighting games forever you aren't likely to sympathize.

@mamertvonn

3 жыл бұрын

Yes and no, since you're not blocking while inputting dp and you need to be fast enough to react and complete the motion if the opponent does decide to attack. Sfiv had start up invincible dp, now there's a bit more leeway to it. Even if you walk forward, you can't commit to a dp since it can get baited(mind games makes the game interesting). Even if you land the dp once then it also becomes a mind game since the opponent can just move back and bait it, then the player that dp successfully conditioned the opponent into a certain action(moving back), which is another another layer of mind games. The fact is even if you could do this, you can only focus on a few things at the same time. The same reason why people still jump when they can just get anti-air, because it's mind games. Being the one on the defensive, your not always thinking "Okay gonna ready the anti air just in case" "Oh oops, i was to focus at anti-airing that i got grabbed" Mind games Then it becomes "Gotta be careful with the grabs" "Ha.. oh wait, he jumped" *Tries to press anti air *Get's counter hit since he couldn't input dp fast enough Mind games

“Other games don’t use motion inputs” Devil May Cry and Astral Chain would like to know your location.

@sammyshake

3 жыл бұрын

FFVI Sabin have input on his attack in a turn based game

@Freefork

3 жыл бұрын

Samurai Shodown RPG.

@Copperhell144

3 жыл бұрын

DMC only has back-forward motions though, right? Unless we count a single direction as motion?

@skyblade7438

3 жыл бұрын

sozcan V has a full circle motion in DMC5. Surprised to hear it isn’t in any other game, honestly.

@bestwind4618

3 жыл бұрын

@@depwek6031 bloodstained

I honestly think that the biggest boon of motion inputs is having more moves off less buttons. It's a genuinely great solution. The barrier to people getting into fighting games isn't execution though, it's how long it can take to actually have fun playing them if you aren't around other beginners frequently. Imo great matchmaking and netcode are the solution to getting people hooked.

@raychangalarza179

3 жыл бұрын

I mean execution can be but not exactly on motion, look at Melee no motion inputs but the execution is a big part of the game. Yeah motion inputs doesn't create a big wall tho

@Badatname

3 жыл бұрын

@@raychangalarza179 Melee has also had the burden of no online for most of its existence and you need a CRT monitor for it. I think the difficulty of finding games has put way more people off than the difficulty of high level techniques

@seanlipscomb2118

3 жыл бұрын

1Destro I like what was said about “more inputs with less buttons” a lot though. Look at Ken in Smash Ultimate. In terms of specials he has 7 unique moves with variations based on how long you hold the button down and whether or not you choose to do a simple or command input. Tbh I’m developing a game right now because of how much I liked the implementation of shoto-characters into Smash. Really seems like a great balance between complexity and accessibility and I’m still learning new routes and setups with Ryu all the time.

@twofacezero257

3 жыл бұрын

Davis1228 I don’t think that’s true at all I think the issues is there isn’t enough incentive to learn not that it’s hard. I think the incentive should be either better single player content and or a more appealing roster to outsiders (usually guest characters is the answer but I’m sure there’s another way). If it’s fun people will wanna learn

@Darknesspichu

3 жыл бұрын

It always comes back to rollback.

local jump force player doesn't understand fighting games, news at 11

@CreepySuspect

3 жыл бұрын

>jump force player Oh, that makes sense

Fantasy Strike has made all sorts of adjustments because of 1 button inputs... For example Jaina has a DP, but to do it costs some of her health so you have to be 100% sure when you want to use it... But people think games like Fantasy Strike are trying to replace traditional fighters when all that they want to do is be a stepping stone to get more new players into the FGC.

@smokingred5813

3 жыл бұрын

I hope it will work out and motivate people to learn more complex fighting games. The other end of the spectrum is people complaining about the new street fighter or guilty gear game not featuring easy inputs like fantasy strike or granblue.

@BlueLightningSky

3 жыл бұрын

Whenever a new game like this comes out people pretend like it's a great "entry" fighter. People did it with DBFZ with its auto combos and no dp inputs. People did it with BftG with basically Smash inputs, and despite the depth it has, it's very easy to start feeling bored with the only one super and one ex move. And now people are doing the same with FS. So when do we get the "real" fighting games?

@Leonix13

3 жыл бұрын

@@BlueLightningSky Because that is Fantasy Strike's design... David Sirlin made FS specifically to be an entry level fighter. DBFZ was never meant to be an entry level fighter, it just had some features to not have a massive entry barrier.

@smokingred5813

3 жыл бұрын

@@BlueLightningSky Despite all the hate it gets i have high hopes for Guilty Gear Strive. I'm unsure what the riot fighting game will be like. Other than that we will have to wait for the next Street Fighter and Tekken entries i guess.

@kodaiyoung

3 жыл бұрын

I'm not against a game with easy mechanics but they may put the player in a box that will make his life in a traditional game more difficult. Because I've learned the basics from SF2 it was easy to transition to most of other fighting games except 3D ones, because they require another set of skills that I had to develop all over again.

"Motion inputs should be deleted" *Tekken7 akuma raging demon rage art, already being available from the touch of a button*: "heh"

Attackative is my new favorite word.

@lethargy4098

3 жыл бұрын

Is that like the fgc version of adorkable?

@Aquatj999

3 жыл бұрын

@@lethargy4098 I think of it more like "focusing too much of destructive criticism without discussing what the true problems are and how to fix them" :O

@Spike-hl2mw

3 жыл бұрын

@@Aquatj999 You could just say "offensive" instead.

Motion inputs give a level of tactile feedback that makes the moves that much more satisfying to do, to see them go entirely would suck.

@kevl0rneswath

3 жыл бұрын

I think established IPs will stick to their existing inputs but newer IPs will be more like Smash, MK, Rising Thunder or even GranBlue

@Josie.770

3 жыл бұрын

@@kevl0rneswath MK has 1 button specials?

@kevl0rneswath

3 жыл бұрын

@@Josie.770 Directional specials

@filipepires9860

3 жыл бұрын

Im starting to learn Tekken for a few days now Imagine if i could do Kazuya's electric with 1 button, how broken is that tbh, completly removes the skill from the character And yeah, that feeling when im now starting to connect 2/3 in a row, its just a fucking great feeling

@sunthi9619

3 жыл бұрын

whoa saying the character only requires skill because of a single move's input is a bit much dont you think

"I'm not even going to pretend that there's a reasonable argument for motion inputs" while he shows Geiger, a character who is the best possible example of why motion inputs are useful for character design and balance.

@Cambiony

3 жыл бұрын

What? Geiger already has a fully functional charge mechanic, why would he need motions. You already can't do walk forward flash kick.

@TheSonicfanx1

3 жыл бұрын

Ritielko Charge motion is still a motion.

@Cambiony

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheSonicfanx1 Geiger has a charge mechanic without having a charge motion. Some of your specials become unavalable for a moment if you press forward. You can go check how it works, fantasy strike is free anyway.

@absoul112

3 жыл бұрын

Ritielko it’s still the same effect.

@Cambiony

3 жыл бұрын

@@absoul112 Yeah that is the point, you don't need to have charge motions to have charge mechanics. Imo Geigers charge meter is better than regular charge, you can have more versatile air charge moves and you could apply charge to other things than not holding forward..

Oh it’s just Blibzy. Yeah no, the guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about

The worst part about the guy's argument is he's making it over footage of him charging a fireball against Geiger's super and getting hit. Like, how do you pick that clip to use and not think "maybe inputs aren't the real problem"

@solstice871

3 жыл бұрын

@@davis1228 But it does show that he is clearly inexperienced and not in a position to speak knowledgeably about this topic. Combined with his nonsense argument and his pitiful attitude, it's clear he isn't using solid logic.

@HBxMmkay

3 жыл бұрын

Davis1228 his logic is flawed for reasons outside of the clip. It’s just funny he put that clip in lmao

@HeirofDacia

3 жыл бұрын

@@davis1228 The guy who argues for the removal of motion inputs is the same guy who wants fucking lootboxes and moba-style monetization and skins in all fighting games... He has no fucking clue what he's talking about.

@g.g6778

2 жыл бұрын

@@HeirofDacia skins and lootboxes all day over a 60€ game plus dlc

@HeirofDacia

2 жыл бұрын

@@g.g6778 Lootboxes that you might spend over a hundred dollars opening, just for a chance to get a skin that you wanted? Go eat shit.

"So you could remove motion commands from games, but you have to change how the moves work because of it." Yup! We agree completely. Fantasy Strike was built from the ground up to have 1-button specials, so different moves (and ESPECIALLY reversals) have different drawbacks to compensate. Rook's command grab is a good example of this; instead of being a super fast startup throw like Zangief's SPD, it's a slow, armored move instead. If you took an existing game and simply added 1-button specials to it, most games would completely fall apart without a massive redesign (SF4 on 3DS comes to mind).

@paz8723

3 жыл бұрын

Rooks Grab is Frame 3, though, its one of the fastest moves in the game and the only way to stop it is to Yomi counter, which opens you up to the other grab

@thisistherun4015

3 жыл бұрын

FS doesn't miss

@paz8723

3 жыл бұрын

@@INSOMNIACification Sirlin is trying to explain that they made Rooks Command Grab slower to balance the lack of motions but then he has a frame 3 grab that leads into a 50/50 between A and Grab

@thisistherun4015

3 жыл бұрын

@@paz8723 It's still supposed to be a super bad scenario, rather than the way an SPD plays into it they achieve the same advantage state. When the grappler is close, there's just a lot to look out for.

@paz8723

3 жыл бұрын

@@thisistherun4015 but there's no real difference between mashing grab/super or SPD aside from the lack of inputs, thats what I'm saying, which makes this whole "we balance around the input" argument kinda silly.

It's so frustrating trying to explain to people who are frustrated by motion inputs that there are good normals and you don't have to use supers all the time. Also this guy is basically making the argument that "in a decade throwing baseballs will be dead, everyone will have one button fastball guns because it's simply more intuitive design."

@capnbarky2682

3 жыл бұрын

@From Maui One example I always try to explain to people is the usage of the traditional shoto crouching heavy punch vs the DP. Both are good anti airs but they have to be used in different ways. The DP is really really good. It has invincibility so it can hit late jump ins, it has range so it can hit early jump ins. But it's 'slow/unreliable' because of the z motion. If you're already blocking and on the defensive it is objectively harder to use any shoto's specials. It's also very risky and can get you combo'd. Crouching heavy is a very good anti air, it doesn't have as good range or invincibility so you have to time it better, but it's still pretty similar to the DP in terms of anti air properties. It is, for all intents and purposes a "one button DP". And players who understand this will use each of them based on what is most reliable at the time, whether it is more important to reliably shut down air attacks with timing or to cover several air options at once. Whether you are at an advantage or a disadvantage against your opponent at the time. The whole thing gets messed up when you go out into the rest of the games. the fact that guile's motion commands are actually easier to do on the defensive is such a huge part of his character balance.

@capnbarky2682

3 жыл бұрын

@From Maui I wish more new players would try charge characters. It's a lot more fun learning FGs when you have good moves you can use on the defensive.

@Caine830

3 жыл бұрын

@From Maui yup, the fact that a new player can’t link normals means that when he tells you command inputs are difficult he doesn’t know what he is talking about. You are definitely a bright one. We should listen to more of your wisdom.

@Stroggoii

3 жыл бұрын

It's actually pretty easy, you put on SSFII and body them thoroughly with Vega's standing fierce and slide.

There’s a reason why 3DS Guile is a meme. It’s Guile who can do his entire move set without inputs. He is a monster in that game.

I like motion inputs cuz there are a lot of cases where it forces you to telegraph your move your opponent, and that helps balance on a level that exists outside the game. Hey, why did ryu just do 2 quick crouches? Oh shit, hes finna throw shinku hadouken. And they you can add another level of feigning your inputs to make them THINK ur gonna do one thing and you can exploit that. It just adds more levels to the game like that and that's why I like it.

@ununun9995

3 жыл бұрын

that's why fake hadouken existed

@nyleaustin1336

3 жыл бұрын

BipBip_Plasm ! Well yea, but that was basically only in the alpha series. It’d be pretty sick if we still have fake hadoken though

@benxen8844

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah there was similar tech in Marvel so that you wouldn’t telegraph Dante’s teleport since it was a 22 motion and if you did it was for bait purposes, the meta game around stuff like that is cool asf

@Aquatj999

3 жыл бұрын

That’s something I didn’t realize until recently. I saw a player in the big TFH tournament feint a 22X special move, and a commentator pointed it out! It’s so cool that you can do that, and hide motion and charge inputs behind other moves!

@EarthLordCJ

3 жыл бұрын

It's also another way of adding more for people to learn about a particular fighting game, too. A newer player might not recognise that what their opponent is doing is buffering, or pre-emptively, inputting movements for a DP, etc. Conversely, an experienced player will be able to sniff out that their opponent is pre-emptively inputting that move, even if their newer opponent doesn't realise that they're giving themselves away. Adding onto this is the knowledge/expectations that two experienced players will have, where they are both aware of how their inputs or movements are being read by their opponent, and then taking advantage of that knowledge. For the record, I really enjoy Fantasy Strike for many reasons, but given it has pretty much no inputs (barring normals), it's not going to have subtleties of that particular nature (which is fine, because it still delivers on many other aspects quite successfully). There's many reasons why inputs are still a thing in fighting games, after all.

There's a core-a gaming video called 'the consequences of reducing the skill gap' or something that already refuted this guy's argument. It's funny how everyone who thinks lowering the execution requirement and 'simplifying' the game to appeal to new players won't also affect skilled players and make them more oppresive to play against. The only change in the scenario is that the game now looks more linear and barren while they do so

@eliasnicolasmiranda4940

3 жыл бұрын

Core-A Gaming is like the guru of fighting games

@mrpinguimninja

3 жыл бұрын

@@eliasnicolasmiranda4940 best fgc content in the internet by FAR

@Aquatj999

3 жыл бұрын

Ideally, you'd lower the skill floor as low as possible while raising the skill ceiling as high as possible, but it's super hard to move one without dragging the other in the same direction. Ideally, it should be very easy to learn the basics of a fighting game and be able to to start making decisions in neutral, offense, defense, oki, wakeup, etc., but difficult to learn and perfect the decisions you're making in all of these situations. In this way, I think a little leniency in input buffering and using simpler motions like QCs and DPs over more pretzel-like motions helps to make games more approachable. Of course, good tutorials are arguably way more important. You can have FGs with a lot of depth without motion inputs, but it does limit the skill ceiling a bit, so I do generally agree that motion inputs should not be discarded :O

@mrpinguimninja

3 жыл бұрын

@@Aquatj999 Yeah, totally. I think a good FG that somewhat managed to move both ways is Melee, which has a very basic mechanic but huge depth and can be enjoyed in any level of play. Most FGs lean more towards the depth side and can't be quite as enjoyable on a beginner level. And while I agree some motion inputs are a hurdle, having motion inputs and having these milestones to achieve during your experience with the game makes your time with it more enjoyable, like Sajam said. IMO, one game that does it well is Skullgirls, where they swapped these more difficult motion inputs for simpler inputs + two buttons. It's a good middle ground. Also, i totally agree with what you and Sajam said, inputs aren't even the hardest part about learning a fighting game (there's a Domination 101 on that as well). The hardest part is understanding what to do and when to do it, achieving the awareness to grasp the situation and reacting accordingly. I'd even argue that this is a biggest hurdle for people getting into fighting games, but it is less visible, so conversation tend to focus on execution.

@eliasnicolasmiranda4940

3 жыл бұрын

@@Aquatj999 not much fighting games has the pretzel motion only SNK games and few characters use that motion like Geese Howard

I checked out his KZread channel and he plays Jump Force. Now we can laugh even harder at him.

@13thKingMu

3 жыл бұрын

Also after few weeks,another youtuber upload the video named "Fighting game inputs are actually genius" Edit: here kzread.info/dash/bejne/f52B1KaYnq6octI.html

@thestanman1486

3 жыл бұрын

HAHAHAHA oh wait you're serious? Let me laugh even harder

@Ouryuu-Zenokun

3 жыл бұрын

the only good thing about jump force is that it has kenshin & shishio (from rurouni kenshin in it) and they TOTALLY messed up kenshin's moveset. Why is there 2 variations of amakakeru? it's just a strong technique, there isn't a "normal version" and "heavenly version". Also he has a move that only worked in the manga because his opponent had amplified hearing (the attack is about making a lot of sound by sheating the sword fast or something, it's weird.) they couldn't get anything right smh. at least the visuals are good and the proper version of amakakeru looks good.

@rsotuyo15

3 жыл бұрын

@@13thKingMu the only video that really matters about that is Core A gaming's video about this

@tendofan

3 жыл бұрын

Just because you play a game like Jump Force doesn’t mean you don’t understand competitive games, not on its own at least. I enjoy the game sometimes because it’s nice, senseless fun with some of your favorite anime characters. Yet I also enjoy games like Street Fighter Alpha 3, and I’m currently looking at getting into the Guilty Gear series.

worse thing is if there's no motion input, there will be no Accidental Dragon Install

@funkuro

Жыл бұрын

Why you getting dragon install accidentally? 🤨 Edit: Sol grand viper 😐

I think this is also related to new players thinking that they have to completely master every special move before getting to have fun in a match which simply isn’t the case. Not immediately being able to do flashy stuff doesn’t make the game bad or unwelcoming to newcomers.

@Tom-vx7qh

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly, I am dog shit at motion inputs, especially DPs, but that's what I like. Because every game, I notice that I am _slightly_ better at doing it, and that gives the drive to keep playing

Hey, I recognize Bilbzy. He makes videos on anime arena fighters. That is just too perfect.

My seemingly hot take on motion inputs is that they're just fun. Tbh I'd love to see them adapted into other genres

@myyoutubeaccount4167

4 ай бұрын

They are in hack and slash games such as Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden, although not that many moves have them

This dood: "no other genre has this" Quake: ppfft get a load of this guy.

0:17 I like the way Sajam sounded, when he responded. It was like getting into a dumb argument, with a friend, and having a big brother that chimes in to, destroy your friends argument.

@The4stro

2 жыл бұрын

what the fuck is it with those random periods and commas?

@charliericker274

2 жыл бұрын

@@The4stro Hit him with that, 1 year later. sentence structure; burn. Nice.,

Motion inputs are a fucking standard in fighting games

@Ramsey276one

3 жыл бұрын

Other genres have motion inputs!!

This guy’s opinion is just stupid. He doesn’t even understand the concept at its most basic and he calls everyone else dumb for making games this way. Even if you have 100% execution and you can do the inputs as fast as humanly possible, there’s always a few millisecond delay between deciding to do the move and it coming out. You can’t have that if a super is two buttons. Let’s see how good World Warrior would have been if you just have to press a button to SPD...

@suspecthalo

3 жыл бұрын

Even if you do the input as fast as humanly possible. It still takes time to do it, which also takes away your ability to do other inputs for that much longer before the move even starts up. Especially with characters like Carl from Blazblue, this is extremely important.

@sunthi9619

3 жыл бұрын

if gbvs was any indication would still take 1 button grab over 1 button dp

such a shame video is private :D

I think the funniest implication of this guy's argument is the fact that Tekken just doesn't exist LOL

@eliasnicolasmiranda4940

3 жыл бұрын

even that Tekken also has motion inputs

@blackkimchi5111

3 жыл бұрын

@@eliasnicolasmiranda4940 Well I meant that as a game Tekken wouldn't even work, there's too many moves; you can't map everything to a button your stick would look like a NASA Mission Control panel.

@SoldierLuka

3 жыл бұрын

Imagine one button PEWGF lol

@fluxator3116

3 жыл бұрын

@@SoldierLuka This was the big debate that happened because of the mixbox. EWGF and even PEWGF became exponentially easier to execute, and there was a big discussion over whether the mixbox should be banned because of things like that. That move was designed with the execution barrier in mind, and when it becomes easier and easier to do, it starts to break the gameplay.

I love how he says you wouldn't argue about input commands in other games when we have Devil May Cry, Bayonetta and Wonderful 101.

@jwithextrajj

3 жыл бұрын

Funny thing is Tony Hawk and Skate have motion inputs galore and you don't see anyone complaining about it.

@ballisticboo7808

Жыл бұрын

Even Kirby, a game designed to be easy, has motion inputs on some abilities

@Drebin1989

Жыл бұрын

Thats new to me

@DiegoXRA

2 ай бұрын

Even FF6 has motion inputs and that's a JRPG

Figuring out a hard combo and overcoming motion input is cathartic like defeating a boss in Dark Souls.

My two cents. Imagine if MMA only had moving forward and back, straight punches and roundhouse kicks. It gets boring to watch and boring to participate in. That's akin to people only pressing directional and punch and kick buttons seperately. Now add jabs, uppercuts, haymakers, front kicks, and low kicks. It gets more interesting now that there are more options. Now you are pressing direction buttons with your punch and kick buttons. Now add take downs, spinning kick (with either leg), spinning back fist, jumping head kicks, etc. There is so much creativity and improvisation to fighting and its much more of a spectacle now that the viewer has even less idea what to expect. That would correlate to motion inputs in fighting game terms. Those moves are more complex and harder to execute, just like the last set of moves mentioned. Blibzy sounds like fighting games should just be a simple game of paper, rock, scissors. If more people thought like him, PRS (or RPS) would be much more entertaining and more lucrative than the MMA, and I am happy I don't live in that world.

@BenjiCakingPanda

3 жыл бұрын

Yo I love this comparison btw

Something tells me that guy couldn't hit a 720.

@JoelBurger

3 жыл бұрын

Was about to reply, this is the argument of people who don't want to put the work in. "I can't be bothered to learn how to do a 720 motion, so it's bad design" is basically the evolution of the arcade classic "throws are cheap, they shouldn't be in this game"

@brunop.8745

3 жыл бұрын

720? These people can't do a *fireball* to save their lives

@ununun9995

3 жыл бұрын

what's 720?

@Aquatj999

3 жыл бұрын

A 360 is hitting all the inputs in a circle, so if you’re using an arcade stick, you’d be spinning it around. A 720 is two of those in a row :O

@snick7340

3 жыл бұрын

Moving your stick in 720 degrees

20 yrs from now fps characters won't even have heads! It's a barrier to entry!

@OrangeShanker

3 жыл бұрын

Headshots being instant kills is a really good comparison

@soren1803

3 жыл бұрын

Tf2 says hello

@sledgehammersssssquad3624

3 жыл бұрын

@@soren1803 Honetly TF2 has tons of great examples of execution/mechanical complexity in FPS. Rocketjumping, sticky-jumping, scorch-shot jumping, the demoknight shield charge sending you flying if you go up a ramp, air-strafing, crouch-jumping, the various uses of airblasting, bunny-hopping, using damage knockback to escape combat, the various trick-stabs, etc. And the Sniper class has that classic headshot, of course. The comparison gets even clearer when in Overwatch, Pharah can just rocket into the sky as an ability - basically, rocketjumping as a one button special with cooldown. Sure, Overwatch is a lot easier to get into for new players. But personally, I can't say it's anywhere near as fun as TF2.

@SoysauceML

3 жыл бұрын

@@OrangeShanker Better comparison is why make aiming an execution barrier? Instead of banning people for using Autoaim, it should've been a feature that comes with the game! Even though things like crosshair placement, pre aiming, holding angles, etc are vital part shooting game's strategical layer.

@BlueLightningSky

3 жыл бұрын

20 years ago the most brutal and punishing shooters that the world has seen and probably ever will see never had heads to click.

Shoutouts to anyone who remembers SSF4 on the 3DS and Guile's 1 button Sonic Boom/Flash Kick

These the type of people that want a win button

So basically, motions are good because they add to the mental stack, force you to leave block to do them, and add execution requirements for powerful moves

@charliericker274

2 жыл бұрын

They are also fun to do, help with remembering combos, and add a level of complexity and skill to the game overall, which can be considered good or bad but it is a change.

love these kinds of videos Sajam

Zahn Jeff and Jay Dee are my favorite Street Fighter Characters.

It's kind of funny how the exact same arguments that are made about "execution checks" with motion inputs, are made about "Knowledge checks" in complex games like Tekken. Anything to dumb down the game to the level they themselves are comfortable with. People are unwilling to put in the required effort to get good at the game as it exists, so instead see it as a fault in the game rather than themselves.

If guile could do walking booms he would be broken

@NurseLee

3 жыл бұрын

SFIV for the 3DS. Guile can boom with input of the touch screen. No charge needed. And he was indeed broken.

@djhero0071

3 жыл бұрын

EVERY MOTHERFUCKER ON THAT GAME STILL USES HIM!!! It’s played online to this day and the amount of guile players with simple controls is just disgusting. Deadass made me quit playing it online

@kholdkhaos64ray11

3 жыл бұрын

@@davis1228 But wasn't Geiger still also one of the most powerful characters in that game at one point?

@KeshavKrishnan

3 жыл бұрын

@@kholdkhaos64ray11 He's gotten nerfed again, he was too strong for a while.

@twofacezero257

3 жыл бұрын

KholdKhaos64 Ray he has to have the worst supers in the game in order for him to be balanced even then he’s still super fuckin good

Fast forward to 2021, GGST, Goldlewis. This fun character idea wouldn't even exist without motion inputs.

I dont know if people have seen SF4 3DS gameplay (Or even CvS2 on GameCube), But if you need a tangible example of what would happen to street fighter if you took out motion inputs I would start there. 3DS guile can tap the touch screen to Sonic boom or flash kick and its the worst. (BTW im not hating on the guy, just wanted to point to video examples of what would happen if we just suddenly switched without thought)

@Aquatj999

3 жыл бұрын

I mean, those are charge inputs, which are worse because unlike motion inputs, your execution can’t really speed up a charge input, you still have to wait the minimum time before you can fire off a sonic boom. In SFIV3D, Guile doesn’t have to charge at all O_o

@ultimategeass24

3 жыл бұрын

Fuckin 3ds version of siv was FLOODED with flowchart guiles and Hondas

@jasonslade6259

3 жыл бұрын

@@Aquatj999 Motion inputs do have a minimum execution time though, its impossible to input a DP in less than 3 frames, because its 3 inputs, and usually its more like 5 to 6. Its impossible to do a 360 input in less than 7 frames. I played CvS2 EO on gamecube and easy-mode zangief was incredibly broken. Just walk up SPD and win.

@Aquatj999

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, especally for command grabs. With charge moves though, it tends to take over half a second to charge these moves. It breaks all the characters, but that’s a lot of frames saved for charge characters O_o

@pipehelix5776

3 жыл бұрын

I used to have sf43D and practiced until I could do the inputs myself and have the pro touch screen on, having only 3kicks and 3punches. Between that and SSB3D the rubber on the pad wore off xd.

there is also motion input for hack and slash games(DMC and Bayonetta come to mind)

@espurrseyes42

3 жыл бұрын

Those mostly just have directional inputs save for shit like the laser cannon of Pandora or the 360 moves in Bayo, which are far less hard to do since it's a 3D game.

It's crazy that two years later sajam made this exact video again. Every new game relights this conversation.

If simplified inputs were the future, then Granblue Fantasy should be much more popular than Guilty Gear Strive. Obviously not.

@tendrilartist3609

2 жыл бұрын

I wish people would play Granblue more...

@charliericker274

2 жыл бұрын

I mean, netcode and a far more interesting looking game help there too. Granblue looks fine, but it is a pretty generic fantasy vibe as far as how it looks. Gear is like, well, nothing else because it's so damn unique but it's cool AF.

The psychology behind motion inputs is really fascinating. I know for a long time I struggled with reverse-dragon-punches. If the special required that input, it was mentally taxing for me to do, especially mid combo. The crazy thing? I could do normal shoryus all day, on either side. Literally the exact same input. I also still get tripped up hard in 6-button games by doing something like cr.LP. st.MK, cr.HP. Something about moving my hands in opposite directions really hurts my brain. It's always interesting to see combos balanced around overlapping/impossible input combination (KoF13 comes to mind, with its crazy input shortcuts), and occasionally QoL patches being made to prevent input errors in common scenarios. With regards to games where motionless inputs exist, let's not sleep on "simple" or "easy" input options. One of the most difficult opponents I ever played in MvC3 played Ryu on Simple. Straight up proximity OS fireball/shoryu. Instant mashable invincible shoryu is OD.

@nrthe2videos514

2 жыл бұрын

I used to know how to execute a hadoken on the left side better than the right side, so when I jump to the left side I use a tatsu rather than a hadoken. It was tactic I used before mastering all directions.

@malcovich_games

2 жыл бұрын

Are you a KOF player? I heard in some KOF’s including KOF15 beta, it’s a bug/feature/requirement (depending on which KOF it is) that their rdp is 4214 i.e. you must have your joystick at back before you press the button and there’s no input leniency as usual for KOFs

@VinceOfAllTrades

2 жыл бұрын

@@malcovich_gamesNope!

Most people making these arguments honestly get beat off of footsies or simple AA reads and I think that’s the bigger problem

@Aquatj999

3 жыл бұрын

I think a lot of people don't even truly realize how important the neutral is because new players tend to simply get comboed to death. It makes it seem like the focus is less on winning neutral and holding offense through oki and mixups, and more about getting one or two good hits and then doing super high execution combos. most of what these players see is combos and okizeme, so they don't see footsies :O

@grantgarbour

3 жыл бұрын

@@Aquatj999 defense is one hardest and most important skills to develop in any fg. If you get into a fg late then it can be very easy to get vortexed to death for hours at a time. Once you understand the defensive mechanics of a game and you force your opponent to start thinking and stop flowcharting then in a way you've earned your right to play nuetral. Or at least that's how it felt learning under night, and skullgirls, but I think it applies to tekken 7 and scvi 2 games that I started playing early. So many offensive techniques are already discovered, but the only thing that can stop them is a strong defense

@amircat1009

3 жыл бұрын

BLITZ ? tekken is a perfect example of it. defence is so hard but it’s so essential. for example Kazuya, everybody thinks he’s all about enforcing the mixup whereas he actually has the best punishment in the game so playing defensive with him works so well you can destroy those with sloppy offense.

@Aquatj999

3 жыл бұрын

@@grantgarbour That is a bit of a problem though, as it requires a lot of work from the player before they are even allowed to determine whether they'll like the game or not. While defense and mix-ups are fun parts of fighting games, it's a lot to ask the player to spend hours practicing and training before even figuring out if they enjoy the game, you know? For you and I, it might be worth it, but not everyone, and it sucks to play a game for 8+ hours, only to realize they're no fun light at the end of the tunnel D:

Their are a subset of very casual players that actually are detered by special input motions. My dad was one of them and would stop playing fighting games with me and my brother once we spent 3 minutes learning basic specials. The crazy shit is the end effect this had was he stuck with Tekken for 2 decades and will still play Tekken 6 Team Battle with me when he's in town.

@welsh_steel2285

3 жыл бұрын

I'm not a fan of 2d at all and I'm a Tekken main with tons of Tekken/online pvp mmo/moba experience, the strict d-pad inputs and combo timings of a 2d game like SF put me off completely and it's too hard, I play one of the hardest characters in Tekken (Lee) at fairly high rank too! I assure you I am the complete opposite of 'very casual' xD

@EpicGamersColluseum

3 жыл бұрын

KintaroB hey alright

@Aquatj999

3 жыл бұрын

@@welsh_steel2285 I get the sense that Tekken has a smoother transition from low level play into high level play. Learning motion inputs and practicing them to get consistent with them is difficult and tedious to many new players, such as the aforementioned dad. High level combos in Tekken, to my understanding, are very difficult, but it's easier to go from the limb-based button pressing in neutral of Tekken to the eventual super high level combos of Tekken than it is to learn motion inputs, and then learn how to use those motion inputs for combos that are simpler than Tekken's. I'm not saying Tekken is better than SF or vice-versa, but Tekken does seem to be easier to get into, even if it's about as hard to master :O

@Aquatj999

3 жыл бұрын

I've heard it said that Tekken's limb-based button system is much more intuitive than any motion input, and even arguably the "light medium heavy, punch kick" system of 6 button fighters. It's easier to pick up than motion inputs, regardless of how incredibly difficult games like Tekken and SF are at the highest levels :O

@kevl0rneswath

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, a lot of these so called fighting game fans seem to have no idea how hard it can be to teach someone do a QCF move if they don't have a knack for it. There is a reason why Sirlin, Killian and Cannon brothers all made motionless fighting games.

6 months late, but wanted to comment on sfvs tiger knee motion. basically how you do instant air specials instantly after inputting jump. and definitely one of the harder executions in the game to get consistent. but being very powerful in return. wouldnt want to even imagine a world where kage can ex tatsu behind me on wakeup with the press of a button

Sajam is goggles/headband away from being a shonen anime protag with that crazy hair!

Can't image Ky's 1-hit confirms into Rtl with 1 button to be fun. Every time i confirm it and hear juicy "RIDE THE LIGHTING" - i feel like pro-player, even without any titles or experience.

damn this video just came up in my feed about halfway through the second day of EVO 2023. kinda crazy that this year streetfighter 6 is having a crazy first year with lots of hype moments and that the headlining game has divided the community with the advantages of modern Vs. Classic controls, then doing it by throwing them both into the same game.

His favorite fighting game must be the 3DS version of Street Fighter 4 where Guile could walk forward and Sonic Boom at the same time since you could map specials to the touch screen.

@flamingpaper7751

3 жыл бұрын

Could you map Flash Explosion to the touch screen?

@chileshems88

3 жыл бұрын

@@flamingpaper7751 Yes

@flamingpaper7751

3 жыл бұрын

@@chileshems88 Actually just a cheat code

I like motion inputs, because it's possible for the developer to add more moves to a character with variance (light, medium, heavy) and with that more options to do with that characters. I like Power Ranger BftG but sometime I think the characters need more moves and some of their moves are only available in their auto combos. Beside of that, special moves on a button feel more like a extra heavy attack button.

Motion input specials make the game more fun to learn initially IMO. It'll become easier with muscle memory, but even with simplified inputs you'll still need to know the fundamentals of when/where/why to perform them.

Motion inputs opens up another path for a player to reach competency. One player can have simple tech but great strategy, while another can have a 1D game plan but excellent execution and they can both be good players and win games. One of the best things is both players have room to grow. There are better games to play if you just want decision making to be rewarded.

@Aquatj999

3 жыл бұрын

Does this usually hold true for individual moves? I could see canceling into/linking moves, hit confirm reactions, those sorts of things being ways in which an individual player improves their play via execution, but at what point does doing a motion input become so second nature that it may as well be a button press? Does such a point exist? Of course, misinputs still happen, and it’s always going to take more time to do a motion input than press a button, but is improving execution on a single motion input a big deal at high level play? :O

@ZeroStrife1396

3 жыл бұрын

​@@Aquatj999 You can think about Basketball for this. How much do you see players in NBA finals miss any given shot? it's second nature for them because they've practiced it for a long time under a lot of different circumstances and they almost never fail. Does that mean that as long as a player has the ball around the 3-point zone they should score without taking the shot? (kinda funny analogy considering American Football exists, but you get the point). Super high level players can still drop combos or miss timings and inputs even in games with simple commands available like Granblue Vs, so I'd say motions will never be so secon-nature that we might as well not have them until we have some controller that lets you do things just by thinking them in the exact moment (at which point we would literally not have motions or any kind of input as we know it). Now, about "do we need 623/DP 236236, pretzel and other more complex inputs?" that's a bit more touchy and complex subject; I'm personally mostly a fan of "only 236, 214 and 22 motions" kinda design, but a hard callout in DBFZ being just 214AB does feel OP/unbalanced at times for characters that can do it in the air in particular since super damage and overall reward is mostly the same across the entire roster and which supers give better wakeup advantage on hit feels kind of random like "this character can force you into a 50/50 guessing game after no matter where they start, has higher than average damage, hits fullscreen, is safe on block and can do it in the air; this other one can only do it on the ground, takes the opponent out of the corner, leaves them far away and does average damage" both cost 3 bars and have the same input... kind of a "rich get richer" thing

Thank you for making this video gentlemen. Motions and charges are very elegant design that doesn't get explained often enough.

Motions are fun, and having a harder execution game is only more gratifying when you put in the work to get the execution down. No issues at all with games DESIGNED around one button specials, but to essentially state that motion inputs are an integral flaw to the genre is demonstrating he doesn't really like/care about this genre. I mean who here who has played Tekken hasn't picked a Mishima in practice mode to do EWGF over and over and over? It's just fun.

@SoysauceML

3 жыл бұрын

I don't think input barriers that exist to solely make your practice for it are good. Motion inputs exist as way to balance character's moves and create an interaction between the two players, such as looking and the motion telegraph or assume someone doesn't have w/e option available in a certain situation (e.g. Ryu can't just throw fireballs when walking forward, guile can't flashkick when standing) and even using motions to confuse someone (e.g. Daigo forcing Momochi to stay blocking by doing two crMK into fireball, then doing an walking shoryuken after crouching a third time in Stunfest2015 Ryu vs. Ken), or making a parry window short so it can't brainlessly cover many options. At higher level there would be player techs that build on inputs to create higher level execution anyways. Korean Backdash is a prime example, so are many option selects.

If GGAC+R ABA's Orbs (half-circle S) was a one-button input, she would have a BNB corner starter like 5S 2HS IAD orbs (2 hit) FRC orbs (2 hit), which increases her base damage from 230 to around 380, approaching ToD levels! But thanks to orbs being half-cirle, it's humanly impossible to input them in time after an IAD.

10:11 The sincerity of the resolution to these closing thoughts cracked me up, lol.

The only thing id like is if motion inputs became more accessable for those using keyboard or D-Pad, where certain inputs are so much harder to so, like full circles.

We have an extreme example in Sven (the blind Ken player). If he took the time to learn motion inputs, so can we.

@TheDarkyvamp

3 жыл бұрын

Brolylegs does them with his mouth

@IronicHavoc

3 жыл бұрын

Being blind wouldn't really make motion inputs harder? It would make the game in general harder, but execution is probably one of the few things a blind person would be on equal ground for. Most people never need to look at their controller.

@Ramsey276one

3 жыл бұрын

THIS

Electric wind god fist counts as a motion input in a way right? Imagine if you could input that with just df 2 it would be crazy everyone would complain

@MrJigglebits

3 жыл бұрын

As a Lars main I hate this joke

Man looking back on this video how could anybody have suck an awful opinion that motion inputs are bad? It is literally the most nonsensical thing I’ve ever heard what game was he trying to play that made him so grumpy?

The funniest thing is that these complaints are never about stuff like Geese's pretzel motion, it's always the most basic shit like a 236 motion that completely confuses and enrages these people. Like it's not that complicated, I don't need your 5 paragraph essay about how a super simple input is too complex and gatekeeping the community.

@brunop.8745

3 жыл бұрын

You'd think those people would have a complete breakdown every time they have to move a ball-shaped door handle because it's a quarter-circle motion

@Goblinade

3 жыл бұрын

But what if I have to practice?? Repeating an action to become proficient at it, makes me sick bruh

@JoelBurger

3 жыл бұрын

@@davis1228 I just said I didn't need your essay about simple inputs

@boredomkiller99

3 жыл бұрын

@@JoelBurger Making bold assumptions that people care about your needs there.

@boredomkiller99

3 жыл бұрын

Also I can see why someone might have problems with a 236 motion. Some people have very untrained motor skills. If you don't do those motions normally it is quite difficult. I only realized this after getting nerve damage and having to relearn my motor skills. Even jumping forward was a bitch. Made a complete recovery though and now understand why my one friend was struggling with fireballs.

And he made the video private. Big sad, I wanted to watch the video and see if he actually makes some valid points. I guess the video had a lot of negative reception. Wonder why ?

I suck at motion inputs but that doesn't mean I want them removed. They're part of the fun.

I can't wait to see sajam's reaction to the 1 button specials and super shenanigans in Kyanta 2 whenever it gets its rollback in

Very poetic leffen raids the stream while talking about motion inputs

It’s all fun and games with playing a one button games until you fight a grappler

this is like playing league and getting mad that all the abilities aren't point and click.

Curious if you’ve played Fantasy Strike and what your thoughts are with that game? Love to see a video on it after you’ve played it for a bit.

For me, motion inputs were the scariest things keeping me from starting to play fighting games. Little did I know, human opponents were the true terror. I kinda do see your point, and I think I agree. If you only need one button to melt your opponent, I think the game becomes frustrating for the melted one, and maybe a bit boring (?) for the melter. So like, some of the fun is finding out what combinations of button will melt your opponent when they do this or that(?) and the fun is in the execution of the strategy or finding holes in your opponent's? Basically motion controls make it easier for game designers to make more interesting combinations and stuff. I can appreciate that.

Zan Jeff, the Green Tornado.

What about characters designed around the presence of overlapping inputs that require execution and situational awareness to get around? Walk forward one input fireball, no overlap with a DP. I main Heihachi in Tekken. A huge portion of his moveset is built around overlapping inputs. It simulates how you can only throw out some moves from specific footwork contexts in real life fighting. I love it and it couldn't exist without motion inputs. The most obvious is that he needs to cancel a wavedash to do any move that doesn't come out of wavedash. But there's a lot more. Can't run up qcf command throw -overlaps with wavedash Can't run up qcf2 Irond Hand - overlaps with wavedash Can't sidestep into 2 jab - overlaps with the sidestep 2 slower and punishable string. Can't run up 2 jab - overlaps with ff2 Demon Uppercut Can't run up f2,3 - overlaps with ff2 Demon Uppercut Can't backdash into f2,3 - overlaps with bf2,3 Can't backdash into b1+2 = overlaps with bb1+2 Can't run up f3 - overlaps with ff3 Can't wavedash into f3 - overlaps with ff3 Can't db2 out of df1- df1 has a super delayable 2 extension that will come out instead unless you throw the db2 super late There are many scenarios where you might want to throw a particular move after a given thing happens, but overlapping inputs require you to either choose something else, or slow the option that you want down by needing to cancel your old movements, to make the right move come out. All told, he has a chunky option to hit you hard for making any sort of choice in close fights, and he's really good at checking his opponents out of things. But even though he's a pressure monster, his offense needs to become technical, precise, and specific to avoid being predictable and getting blown up by something.

@erebosnyx7563

3 жыл бұрын

I don't think the argument against motion inputs is that you need to have only 1 button moves. Rather that qcf makes no sense, only fighting games have these, on the other hand I think that an average gamer would understand the run up f3/ff3 situation while playing.

@neonknight5857

3 жыл бұрын

@@erebosnyx7563 yee I feel you. I just had a lot of examples I wanted to bring up about the execution of a move being tied to its design. I.E. qcf (and other motions) can make a lot of sense when you design with them meaningfully. It's not like they just randomly chose that you need to put in a random series of buttons to throw a basic punch, for no reason. Y'know?

@erebosnyx7563

3 жыл бұрын

@@neonknight5857 It becomes an issue of designer vs user. Pressing forward to go forward is a real life mapping between what you do and what happens in the game, qcf has no real life meaning, no matter how much intent is being put behind the design. That's why shooting/accelerating is on the right trigger in games that have those. My point with the run up f3/ff3 was that unnatural motions are not needed to have the overlapping inputs design you mentioned. And to a greater extent, like the guy in the video, I don't think there is a design that would justify qcf in modern FGs. It is the job of game designers to find ways around these kinds of constraints.

@neonknight5857

3 жыл бұрын

@@erebosnyx7563 Limitations aren't necessarily bad things. Take the earlier fireball and DP example. It would be obnoxious if you could dash up fireball, so there's a degree of limitation on it.The DP motion existing necessitates that you move forward, wait, THEN fireball. If that limitation didn't exist, you'd need to design a different fireball. And, probably a different DP. BBTAG has a universal 2 button press, no motion DP. But they necessarily made it a terrible option by making almost all its damage recoverable when they're tagged out. Not only is the move instantaneous to throw out, but it's not even worth throwing out most of the time for how extremely punishable it is. The personality of the move, and it's usefulness, were both neutered. The execution of a motion naturally lends itself to being more useful in different situations. It's a way to dynamically make a move feel like a faster or slower option in different contexts, elegantly adding to the strategy of a game. By all means a game doesn't NEED to have them, but a game without them isn't one that's any better for doing so. A sidegrade. Different. Not better. It's not even necessarily true that removing them would make them any more accessible. By using special motions you can tie a lot more moves to the same couple buttons or directions, instead of needing to spread them out across many.

@erebosnyx7563

3 жыл бұрын

@@neonknight5857 I don't think that's elegant, I actually think it's the opposite. An elegant solution would be to control that flow with intuitive controls. Delaying the fireball is a concept that only people familiar with FGs will understand. We can argue if it is either simply different or just better, but in the end money talks so we'll see what happens with the new wave of games coming. FGs are live services so retention is crucial. I don't have data but I would be surprised if A/B testing between simple and complex motions showed that people played complicated games for longer.

Ah yes my favorite street fighter characters Zanjeff and JD Good video btw.

There is definitely space for both motion inputs and one button specials in games. Different people will value different things, and I personally think it makes execution more fun to have motion inputs.

I understand why motion inputs make some moves delayed or w/e that makes the game more nuanced but I've a gripe with them that I've yet to see pop up elsewhere: They put a strain on your fingers and hand and make the game physically more demanding to play over longer periods of time than if you made things work like in something like Fantasy Strike. They also make you destroy your controller faster. I'm not a fan of that.

@gatocochino5594

3 жыл бұрын

'and make the game physically more demanding to play over longer periods of time' what's wrong with that?

@HighLanderPonyYT

3 жыл бұрын

@@gatocochino5594 All kinds of finger, arm, and hand illnesses.

@gatocochino5594

3 жыл бұрын

@@HighLanderPonyYT take breaks. what you're saying is true of any physical activity.

@brandonfelix8116

3 жыл бұрын

Sounds like you have a bad pad

@third-ratedude4234

3 жыл бұрын

Fighting games generally is less time demanding than any other competitive games. If you can play 3 moba matches without hurting your hands, then you can play 20 match of fighting games without feeling anything.

Motion inputs affect neutral game in many complex ways, the problem with some people is they will not dig deep enough to understand it before jumping with "nobody understands fighting games more than I do" arguments that are completely wrong. This is just the usual Dunning-Kruger Effect in action, nothing new. There are people jumping on hating DMC5's as well with their "outdated style system that are cumbersome" argument when they're already done is a relatively simple manner and many options and freedom would've removed otherwise.

Combo assist in KI also chaining player. Assist use buttons to continue combo, but some characters use this buttons - target combo or traits while they in combo sequence. Some chars can use three different linker, but with assist you can use only two, so third linker you need activate with motion only.

The charge FORWARD, back + P is a command for Tuff N’Uff , now available in the Switch virtual SNES app!

Having one button specials forces characters to have less special moves, because controllers only have so many buttons.

@Aquatj999

3 жыл бұрын

You could use keys on a keyboard, or use something like “hold left trigger” to modify the moves you have instead of motion inputs, but that does open up other issues like excessive option selects, like Sajam mentions :O

@AriyanK0091

3 жыл бұрын

This can be effortlessly remedied by doing what smash does, which is to have specials bound to one directional input plus a button. Assuming an 8-direction analog stick with 4 attack buttons, you can have 32 attacks with solely one-directional inputs.

@AaronRotenberg

3 жыл бұрын

This is a silly argument imo... some Smash characters effectively have as many specials as some Street Fighter characters by using single directional input + button, often with button press length, charge, angle, etc. to control things that would be tied to light/medium/heavy in Street Fighter.

Let's apply this logic to other games. Shooters? As long as I am looking in the general direction of the enemy I should kill them. Imagine how hard it is for someone who's never played a shooter to start aiming. Their only option would be to play an FPS where you can get away with not aiming. MOBAs? Why can we cancel auto attacks? It's a just a barrier for people who can't play certain heroes. They should let me buffer movement so after an auto so I can stutter step perfectly. Or why not just let me move and attack at the same time? RTS? Why have limited unit selection? Why can't we just make the game about decision making? Why do we have to have mechanical requirements in an RTS? Why do you have to make me actually have to put in effort to tell my units what to do? The units should do the work for me. Yes I do know of examples of games that do exactly this but that doesn't mean the skill gap hasn't been shortened. And just to be clear because everyone seems to be deluding themselves, new players will still lose to good players when you take these things out but tier C players can now beat tier A players. If it never mattered in the first place you wouldn't be bitching so much when people suggest taking it out.

@heretopissyouoff8439

3 жыл бұрын

For the FPS one they have it, its called aimbot

@BlueLightningSky

3 жыл бұрын

@@heretopissyouoff8439 I heard fighting games also have something similar called the pad but they recently came out with an even better version called the hitbox

@Zetact_

3 жыл бұрын

Even just apply it to other mechanics in fighting games. "Combos just raise the skill gap, if you know your character's moves and have the execution, you do so much better than someone who doesn't, it's an unfair advantage, isn't it? Remove combos! Or at least make them available by just mashing a single button. It's not fair that Zangief can do as much damage with one SPD as my favorite character can do but they require multiple hits!" "Walls in stages are poor game design, they force one player into a more defensive position by removing their options. The stage should be designed so that the player can always have their full range of motion available." "Switching sides just make things more difficult since players who are used to playing on one side of the screen need to flip their perspective and oh my god those super difficult motion inputs are MIRRORED, how hard! Keep each player on one side of the screen, there's no reason why it shouldn't stay that way!" "Why does crouch blocking exist? Having to remember which moves hit overhead and which ones hit low only makes it harder to get into a fighting game. If you're blocking, you should just block the attack, in any other game with a blocking system that's how it works!" etc.

@Ramsey276one

3 жыл бұрын

Fully agree

@chuckles3116

3 жыл бұрын

All of your examples are of using already learned mechanics in a precise manner. Motion inputs give absolutely no visual feedback for how close you were to inputting them unlike your other examples. The only real comparison would be if your gun jammed every time you tried to use the cool guns without first inputting a precise dance into the WASD or joystick. Sure the dance being a requirement would undoubtedly make the meta more interesting, but it would shatter gamefeel for anyone who doesn’t want to spend half an hour in the shooting range before their first game.

When I was much younger I didn't like command inputs, not because they were hard, but because they were too abstract for me. Like, "why is 623P an uppercut? what are the directions doing?" So I gravitated to 3D fighters where the directions were intuitive in the context of the move. As an adult, it doesn't bother me, but I wonder if there are ways to design inputs that communicate something about the move. Then it might not feel so arbitrary.

In Street Fighter 4 3DS edition, you can assign touchpad buttons to specials and Ultras, which essentially makes it broken with Guile doing walk forward Boom+Flash Kick, or Honda having instant cr. Jab -> Hand Slap combos and intant Ultra 1

I think fantasy strike is a good way on how to balance a game without motion inputs. It's honestly a well done game, but it doesn't change that motion inputs should be something based on the game and not something universal

I was never really a FGC person at all until 2019. I started playing DBFZ. I had heard about all these special move inputs and stuff and was intimidated, but honestly it was simple. At least DBFZ ones are. I found games like Tekken or MK harder with dial-a-combo much harder than DBFZ and SF5 when I tried it later.

A man once said "Get good scrub"

Charge moves in particular really change the move's balance. Literally half the directions you can move in prevent them from being used, it's why they are often powerful. One of my biggest gripes with SFV on launch was the lack of charge characters and Capcom playing with the idea of getting rid of charge moves. Since I play charge characters almost exclusively that was not welcome news. I main Boxer and the change of screw smash to a DP wasn't what I wanted though it did help against Akuma. At some ranges I can walk far enough forward to get under his air fireballs and catch him with a screw smash on the way down if I time it right because I can use it while walking forward. I could not have done that with a down/up charge move. The motion makes a difference.

Most of this one button special mindset comes from people who came from games like LOL, and DOTA. They don’t understand the fundamental difference in design between the genres.

@pkrockin3923

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah people who pretty much only plays PC games like mmo's, rts' and adventure games. Im in a third world country where I dont have access to PC's and consoles when I was younger where only the privileged kids plays all the console and PC games while us mere mortals only have access to arcade games and a handful of PC games(usually in a computer cafe). I loved playing arcade fighters as a kid and became good by practicing and copying people's inputs 😂 and getting bodied so many times.

@Splozy

3 жыл бұрын

I am not sure that's true. For example, Dota has a high execution barrier and even basic stuff like 1 button spells or attacks have really huge telegraphed start ups and animations. One of the biggest things that turn away new players from Dota is the excruciating turning animations, which is literally the basic way you move your character about. I think the 1 button special mindset is simply from people who watch too much shit like extra credits or other authoritative KZread trash and don't play fighting games.

@theneosuperzero

3 жыл бұрын

I get that it's your opinion but it's wrong. Based on my own experience at least, most of Dota players are capable of playing a lot of complex games. And fighting games aren't that hard, just need some times to get used to. Just like Dota. You know how many buttons there are? And another proofs is do you know how much Dota pros actually play fighting games? Quite a lot actually.

You can have easy inputs without having one button inputs

@usedtobereign

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah quarter circles are a nice middle ground I think, really, anyone can learn these with ease, as long as he practices them just a little bit. But here's the issue, I think the people who complain about these things don't want to practice.

In Alpha and ST, Ryu has his regular hadouken and his shakunetsu hadoukens. The shakunetsu is essentially superior (outside of 1 or 2 rare circumstances) because it can knock down at close range. However the shakunetsu hadouken requires a half-circle motion whereas the regular hadouken is a quarter-circle... No matter how skilled you are, these motions require a degree of TIME. The 2 additional frames for inputting the move create a defacto speed benefit to the regular hadouken. It also allows for an instant duck and hadouken punish, which the shakunetsu cannot execute as quickly.

@MokonaModokiES

2 жыл бұрын

also the direction that it starts off limits in what circumstances you can throw it out as fast as possible. If we for example take how its done with Kage in SF5 the shakunetsu is faster if you are doing from walking forward but the hadouken is faster if you are doing from back or down back.

There’s a pretty good reason as to why even though game devs try to make inputs more lenient and accessible they still keep motion inputs

Motion commands are sick y’all remember when you were the first kid on the block that could do hadoukens and you dunked on everyone? That shit was hype

@twofacezero257

3 жыл бұрын

Davis1228 ya but it reduces the amount to learn, and it makes it so moves can’t be as strong and fun to use.

@twofacezero257

3 жыл бұрын

Davis1228 I don’t know man I enjoy that shit like. I fuckin love the process of learning all the crazy horse shit I can pull and practicing combos. All the crazy shit I can do is half the fun for me so I think it should be a case by case basis

I much prefer inputs if it’s a faster paced fighting game, imagine having fighterz with the controls of fantasy strike…That would be horrible and it would easily be able to misinput. The only input I don’t like in games is a Z motion because I always screw it up when trying to do it fast in a situation where I need it.

@m-as9637

3 жыл бұрын

That's actually why it's so tricky. You're MEANT to screw it up when under pressure, making decide between "do I do the hard but good thing or should I go for the safe option?"

Many many game genres have tough execution barriers and complex concepts, but they are able to introduce their concepts one at a time with paced tutorials and challenges designed to test and reinforce the new concepts/moves and then have you juggle multiple already practiced concepts together. But fighting games really don't have that, you have all of your moves unlocked, and they're introduced as just a big list with no explanation of how they work or where they're useful, and your two choices for learning to play is against another human where you have so many concepts to learn and manage at once your brain just turns off and you mash and hope to win, or against a cpu who doesn't know how to adapt, so you just find the one exploitative strat that works and spam it till you get bored. The equivalent would be a platformer where you're tossed into the final level after just seeing a list of moves and being expected to just bash your head against it as you die over and over until you win. No one would want to play that game. The issue with fighting games is that there is no game with an adequate story mode that properly tutorializes moves and concepts in a gradual way that would promote learning.

i like motion inputs because they streamline what a player can input by using the joystick over more buttons and thats swag.

Motion inputs is part of a mind game, where you think: "should I commit to this move or not?". It makes the choices players make interesting . If it ends up as button then we have situations, like chen jumping to saber, where it's a game if who can delay their buttons more. Plus, the thrill of doing fast motions in the heat of battle is a huge adrenaline rush that makes the fight feel real. Not to mention, DP's or invincible reversals needs the motion input so that you need to commit to giving up your block state to unleash this really powerful move, since you need to move forward to do it. I think the way granblue does it is fine. If they really wanna apply this model then based it around gb

Poor guy, Sajam ripped him apart

@stolensentience

3 жыл бұрын

He went easy

Can be used for balance =/= needed for balance

When I first played street fighter 2 and saw the move inputs I was like wtf is a Z? And how can you do a full circle without jumping?