So what do you make of Jane Seymour? Calculating schemer, or just another victim of Henry VIII? Let me know below and check out my PATREON site for extra perks at www.patreon.com/historycalling

@ElizabethF2222

3 жыл бұрын

Great video! I've always wondered what would have happened to Jane if she hadn't had Edward??? I bet she was terrified of giving birth to another girl! I sure would have been if I were in her shoes. Unlike Anne, she kept herself quiet while pregnant and didn't go around boasting like Anne did (if she did). Maybe that had something to do with it, karma if you will.

@helenwheels3341

3 жыл бұрын

Victim. Obviously

@pamelaevm880

3 жыл бұрын

Yes Jane was Anne's lady-in-waiting she started up with Henry and Ann was pregnant. so he'll know she's no innocent in this regardless of what an did. As a matter of fact I think she saw how it works for Anne and she might could do the same thing.

@ElizabethF2222

3 жыл бұрын

@@pamelaevm880 So true! Also, I have a hard time figuring out how Anne Boleyn could get SO mad at Jane Seymour for being Henry's mistress, when Anne had zero problems being a mistress to Henry while he was still married to KOA, gave not a flip about her queen, KOA's feelings in the slightest,, certainly didn't respect her position, and even celebrated her death!!! Hmmmmm

@pamelaevm880

3 жыл бұрын

@@ElizabethF2222 That is so true. And could have felt better about it because she knew Catherine couldn't give Henry a child anymore. Oh hell what am I even saying what she did was not right. Karma can really bite someone in the ass LMAOwhat surprised me is when an kept turning him down to sleep with him I thought you couldn't say no to the king. So makes me think of men like the chase. It's amazing how often royalty miscarried their babies.

Jane's luck was from having a son, and dying from childbirth. Henry would have tired of her eventually, and much sooner, had she lived and her .child a daughter. Anne of Cleves was the luckiest, and the smartest of his wives. She didn't want him any more than he did her, agreed to an annulment, got a decent settlement, and enjoyed her life.

@luvprue1

3 жыл бұрын

Actually I don't think Henry viii would have tired of Jayne. Once Jayne had his son he had no reason to seek another wife.

@lilacsunshine3044

3 жыл бұрын

@@luvprue1 me bets he would have wanted another son.. a spare.She may not have been able to do that and thus he would have gotten frustrated with her,

@luvprue1

3 жыл бұрын

@@lilacsunshine3044 But he wouldn't have gotten rid of her since she had his son. Anne not being able to have a son wasn't the only reason why Henry viii got rid of her. Henry Viii saw that he could no longer justify his previous actions of putting Queen Katherine aside, the break with Rome, the removal of Princess Mary from succession,and the beheading of Moore and the bishop. Anne just became too problematic to keep. Jane was none of those things .

@lilacsunshine3044

3 жыл бұрын

@@luvprue1 Henry was a cold-blooded killer.Ann did not deserve this. He got bored with her plain and simple and wanted out. I think at the end of the day that was why she was bumped off/

@valkyriesardo278

2 жыл бұрын

I doubt Henry would dispose of Jane. In fact, I think he would have remained wed to Catherine had she given him a healthy son. I doubt he would have executed Anne had she given him a son. I think many today discount just how much of a priority it was for Henry to secure the line of succession. The matter of a queen was of far less concern to him beyond the necessity of a legal heir. It was customary for a king to have mistresses.

I think, in truth, they were women living in extraordinarily difficult times. I’m a massive Anne Boleyn admirer, nothing anyone can say will change that. Jane had the benefit of seeing how Henry reacted to both Katherine and Anne. Anne was on her own, in uncharted waters. There’s too much blame put onto the women. Henry was the culprit here. They were ALL victims of their times…and especially of Henry.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed :-)

@HK-gm8pe

2 жыл бұрын

I hated Jane the most from all his queens because she treated Elizabeth lie s*it called her a filthy bastard and said to Henry that "a daughter of a wh*re shouldnt be a princess" and Henry banished Elizabeth after that...yeah I know that Anne was pretty mean with Mary as well but she still gave Mary a chance also Mary was a teenager and Mary herself didnt accept Anne as a queen so ofcourse Anne treated her horribly, Elizabeth was just a little child when Jane wanted her gone from the court ,also I dont like the fact that Anne is always made a horrible one but Jane was actually even worse also Jane was dumb and uneducated, baerly knew how to read and if she was soooooo "catholic" and such a saint like she claimed to be then why did she even flirt with a married man? Also my history tudor actually told us that its likely that Henry picked Jane because Jane was from a very big family , so he was positive that she is able to give him a son, and the fact that she is reminded soo positively is probably because she died only few months after they had been married, and she also give him a son...ironic since Edward didnt live long and is the least remembered Tudor :D his daughters grew much more famous

@kelrogers8480

2 жыл бұрын

I don't know. I can't help having a problem with a woman who gets engaged to a man on the same day he has his wife's head chopped off!

@kittye8340

Жыл бұрын

I voiced this sentiment defending Catherine of Aragon and Jane Seymour and Anne Boleyn fans went after me 😌

@bakoyma

Жыл бұрын

I was going to write exactly this, but I see it has already been done. It is well said and I agree wholeheartedly with Deirdre L.

Jane knew exactly what she was doing. Both of her brothers proved themselves in time to be ruthless and ambitious men. I don't know why we must assume that Jane was any different.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

It's interesting isn't it? Anne gets a lot of flak for how she acted in helping to destroy Catherine's marriage, but Jane doesn't get as much criticism for her role in destroying Anne's marriage, even though it led to Anne's death. I'm not saying that Anne didn't behave badly too with regards to Catherine, but it's a curious tale of double standards. As for the brothers, I'm just putting together a video on Edward VI at the moment which deals with the fate of the two Seymour boys and as I'm sure you know, it's not good! Thanks for watching and commenting.

@wilfordfraser6347

3 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryCalling I only just discovered your channel and I love it. It is always great to come across new historical documentaries on youtube.

@nassauguy48

2 жыл бұрын

I am not so certain about that. Jane had a reputation for being calm and passive, and in fact, was 26 when she caught the eye of Henry and 27 when she married him, advanced ages by Tudor marital standards. Prior to that, she had no acknowledged suitors, indicating that she was a bit of a shy wallflower. Anne was the exact opposite, vocal in her opinions, and having had a slew of suitors before she married Henry.

@wilfordfraser6347

2 жыл бұрын

@@nassauguy48 Jane was known for being cold, prudish, and strict with her ladies. She did not hesitate to speak het mind to Henry and had to be warned by hm to stay in her place. Both of her brothers were ruthless and ambitious; I see no reason to believe she was any different.

@wednesdayschild3627

2 ай бұрын

Anne was said to be attractive enough and ahe could sing, dance and was charming. Jane was an old maid. I don't think she is bad looking, she is okay. She wasnt charming.​@@HistoryCalling

I think Jane is not as meek and kind as she is often portrayed. She might not have planned to get rid of Anne by having her executed, but neither did she seem to bother about her predecessor´s end. When you remember she tried to get Mary back into Henry´s favour, I do think she was abominated by how Mary was treated by Anne and thus had very little sympathy for her which is why she seemingly walked over Anne´s dead body in rather cold blood. As far as i know Mary was sent to Hatfield as a servant to Elizabeth and Anne instructed Mary´s keeper to slap Mary whenever she claimed to be the true princess and to swear at her "as the cursed bastard that she is". As a lady in waiting to Henry´s first wife she might have been a supporter of Catherine all along, so perhaps when Henry showed interest in her she might have thought that now that Catherine was dead, at least she could help her daughter Mary to get back into Henry´s favour. That is just a speculation on my part though. But it strikes me that she tried to help Mary but didn´t do much for her other step daughter, Elizabeth, who seemed to have fallen into neglect after Anne´s downfall. In the Tudor Series Jane is protrayed as being the kind step mother to her step daughters but I haven´t found any historical source of her treating Elizabeth as well as she did treat Mary. So, I don´t think Jane ever had any good emotions towards Anne and she probably thought of Anne as a usurper and home wrecker, so, when she had the chance to kick Anne off the throne, she did so without hesitation. When she kissed Henry´s letter and played hard to get she knew exactly what she was doing, after all that´s how Anne got Henry. If she had simply opened the letter or agreed to be Henry´s mistress, she would never have become queen and being queen is what she wanted. As Henry´s affection to Anne was gone she took the perfect moment, when Anne was at her most vulnerable. So, I do believe she was much more calculating and devious as we think of her today.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for such a detailed comment. You know, you raise an interesting point about Catherine of Aragon being dead when Jane enters the picture. I wonder if she'd still been alive would Jane have been interested in pursuing a relationship with Henry, given her good relationship with Catherine and Princess Mary. It's something I've never considered before. Hmm...

@cjb6152

3 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryCalling That is very interesting indeed.... I have also never thought about what would have been if Catherine had still been alive at that point. What I am convinced of is that Jane was certainly on Catherine´s side, given the evidence she tried to get Mary back into Henry´s favour. Though, after Henry divorced Catherine, there was no going back. After all, Catherine could no longer bear children and I think Jane also knew this. What also would have been complicated as well is the fact that Catherine never ceased to call herself England´s true queen and Henry´s true wife. So, as someone who sided with Catherine, she probably would have simply become Henry´s mistress, trying to pull the strings in the background into Mary´s and Catherine´s favour as far as she could. But marriage is something I don´t think Jane would have gone for as long as Catherine was alive. But this is just a guess on my part. We will most likely never know.

@ElizabethF2222

3 жыл бұрын

I think Anne Boleyn stepped over KOA (alive and after KOA's death) without a care in the world, just as Jane stepped over Anne's body without a care in the world. Mistresses stepping over their queens seemed to be the norm. How would Jane have had anything to do with Anne's murder, other that trash talking her to Henry? It all boiled down to Henry's orders in the end, IMO. Excellent comment, though! PS Jane was kind to Mary out of devotion for her and KOA. Jane was also a staunch Catholic and despised the reformation, Even spoke in favor of the Pilgrimage of Grace which got her into trouble with Henry. Apparently, Jane basically ignored Elizabeth. tThat scene in the Tudors where Jane gave Lady Rochford jewels to buy clothes for Elizabeth is apparently made up. I could be wrong but I heard there was no evidence Jane ever did that.

@cjb6152

3 жыл бұрын

@@ElizabethF2222 Well, I do think Jane played a tiny part in Anne's downfall by acting hard to get. She knew that's how Anne got Henry and I believe she knew exactly what she was doing and what effect it would have on Henry. Especially when Henry and Anne's marriage was on the rocks due to another miscarriage on Anne's part. Other than that I haven't found anything on Jane that implies her into Anne's downfall. Sure, Anne didn't care about KOA and so it doesn't surprise me that, as a result, Jane cared just as less for Anne. However, it is true that Henry was the one who decided about Anne's fate at the end of the day. If Anne hadn't miscarried their son, history would surely have been quite different. Regarding Jane I agree that she surely was a Catholic and this might have add up to her despising Anne even more. I also remember she did stand up for the people who were involved in the pilgrimage of grace. I just read that Elizabeth was placed out of sight when Jane was queen. I also read that she told Henry that Elizabeth should not be allowed to be called princess. However, as Henry's marriage to Anne was declared null and void, subsequently Elizabeth lost her title as princess and was then known as Lady Elizabeth just like it happened to Mary before. I don't necessarily think Jane told Henry to do so. Losing her title as princess was a foregone conclusion. What I also remember is that after Anne's downfall Elizabeth's governess Lady Bryan wrote to Cromwell that Elizabeth had outgrown all her infant clothes and didn't have money to buy new ones. So, I see that as an indication that Jane didn't care much about Elizabeth either. I also haven't read any source that she gave Lady Rochford her jewelry to buy clothes for Elizabeth as it is shown in "The Tudors" . I think Jane is remembered as being the kind wife simply because she reconciled Mary to Henry. But she surely didn't care much about Elizabeth. And I can't really blame her for this. Anne didn't care about Mary's well-being either when she refused to accept her as queen. So, it is all a complicated mix of political, religious and personal issues within Henry's family that was unfolding back then. But that's what makes the Tudors so fascinating IMO. To get back to Jane, I still think that her kissing the letter and saying what she said was a very calculated move on her part. And given the fact that she was a Catholic and a supporter of KOA, makes me think that, by acting the way she did, she encouraged Henry to do what he did eventually. She wasn't the mastermind behind Anne's downfall, but she took the opportunity when it was given to her. That's my opinion.

@ElizabethF2222

3 жыл бұрын

@@cjb6152 Well you're obviously quite more knowledgeable on the Tudors than I. Thanks for the reply. I agree with everything you said. Jane kissing that letter was a VERY calculated move as she knew it would get back to Henry and make herself look so pure and virginal as opposed to Anne, the "concubine" as the Spanish Ambassador Eustace Chapuys always called her. I think she saw the writing on the wall and how displeased with Anne Henry really was and took full advantage of the circumstances. I have come to respect Anne for her courage but I do loathe the way she treated KOA and Mary especially. Also she was supposedly mean to her ladies, was very haughty around court, bragged about her last pregnancy and celebrated KOA's death. Maybe if she hadn't acted that way, she would have had more support in the end. Anne didn't have powerful relatives like KOA either. I also have no doubt that if Anne had had a son there would be no Jane either.

With all due respect, we've seen what happens to people who said no to Henry. Jane probably did do what she was told and it had to be flattering to catch the eye of the king. All that wealth, servants, power for her family. and given that many people didn't think that highly of Anne, I don't think it took much to tip the scales. Yeah, there's a lot of creepiness here, But then again there was a lot of creepiness about Henry. VII anyway.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, there was a lot of creepiness with Henry. I think the Katherine Howard situation shows that best given the huge age discrepancy, how young she was and the fact that he'd married one of her cousins, slept with another and ultimately had 2 of them executed.

@Zeldarw104

3 жыл бұрын

Hello!! Very well said!😬

@therealghostgirl

3 жыл бұрын

I do think it Henry’s behavior was highlighted throughout this video, including the fact that no one said no to him.

@phalynwilliams4119

3 жыл бұрын

Henry had also fathered a son with Anne Boleyn’s married sister. Henry had no boundaries. Smh

@Rannnooww

3 жыл бұрын

@@phalynwilliams4119 haha so true. But in those times, he’s the King, and as far as he’s concerned he can do what he bloody well pleases and nobody can say a word about it 😂 he massively abused his power for his own ‘benefits’ and didn’t really cast a thought for any of the people (women/ husbands of said women) whose feelings he hurt or indeed lives he ruined along the way. He was the King. Nobody could really say no to him and so really nobody did. He took that power and he ran with it. Like he really, really ran with it 😂😂😂

I think Jane was more passive than Anne, anne was intelligent which Henry liked in the beginning but she was also stubborn and didn’t bend to Henry’s will Jane on the other hand was said to be passive and plain which had she lived longer may have bored Henry

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, it's generally thought that Henry liked Anne's spark and intelligence in a mistress, but less so in a wife and Jane was the polar opposite to Anne. He may well have become bored, but then he never minded taking up a new mistress when he wanted a diversion ...

@ElizabethF2222

3 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryCalling He was a completely selfish and very cruel tyrant! There's another word I call him starting with "p" but I wanted to remain polite. 🤣🤣

@vilwarin5635

3 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryCalling Didn´t he already had a new mistress while Jane was pregnant? A lady in waiting? Henry lost no time

@jamellfoster6029

3 жыл бұрын

True... But she died as a consequence of the poor hygiene practices for childbirth during the time....

@graphiquejack

3 жыл бұрын

I’ve always suspected the meek image of Jane, personally. I think she had more of a backbone than people assume. How much of it was an act to deceive, I’m not sure, but she is known to put up a fight in a few instances at least, and her motives are up for interpretation. Maybe she was well meaning, or maybe she had a hidden agenda. Take her role in reconciling Henry and Mary. Sure, it can be seen as kindly, but think what Jane had to gain from it… Mary bent at last and ‘admitted’ she was a bastard, and who benefits from that? Henry yes, but also Jane as it clears the field for any children she may have with Henry. What if Jane was just feigning a meek persona to position herself as the anti-Anne and to be non-threatening to Henry but was actually just as scheming and ruthless as anyone else at court… or at least… she was given strategy from her ambitious brothers, perhaps, if she wasn’t smart enough to come up with it herself? No proof of that, of course, but she did end getting her way a lot of time. Impressive for someone who allegedly was a submissive doormat

I feel like people want to make Jane more devious because they love Anna so much and don’t want to believe she could be usurped by someone so “mid” but I think that in the same way it is unfair to treat Anne like all of Henry’s cruelty came from her, the same applies to Jane. If we celebrate Anne for being ambitious why not Jane? Why is she a home wrecker when Anne also could get that label? Idk. The bias frustrates me

@lise7538

10 ай бұрын

Thank you ! I was looking for this comment, I thought it was completely hypocritical.

@ang4171

7 ай бұрын

Exactly, all this misogyny in the comments. Like do you really think a woman whose family is pushing her towards the psychotic king aswell as being actively pursued by said king is gonna say no? Always trying to make one woman seem like the villain when the man responsible for it all is right there. SMH

@nicolefornuto7177

7 ай бұрын

@princess_weekes highly agreed and I think both Anne and Jane were very complex

@Brenda-ny1gw

2 ай бұрын

No one raises to the top by being naïve. Henry was a clever, hypocritic, narcissist and savagely ambitious man. It's natural to think he was attracted to women with the same qualities. He knew who Jane was. Being a ruthless man, he might have appreciated her ambition and lack of compassion. That probably added to the attraction

@Rat_Queen86

2 ай бұрын

It frustrates me too! I don’t get why everyone adores Anne for being strong and knowing what she wanted, but with Jane, it’s seen as her being cold and vicious. It makes no sense.

Jane is always portrayed as "meek, unintelligent, modest" etc. However, I'm certain I once read a contemporary account of Jane having a "haughty" manner/nature (I cannot recall the book, nor the Author). I don't believe for a second that Jane was some completely innocent, meek little Woman.. She just played that part. Jane's Brother's were also highly intelligent, ruthless, social climbers, so I also doubt that Jane was "unintelligent" in Any way. Jane was likely as ambitious as Her Brother's! She may well have been uneducated, but Jane was certainly smart enough to know what She was doing and knew how to play Her role. It certainly appears as if Jane had a real hatred for Anne, given that Jane was entirely willing to down cry Anne to Henry, in front of the entire Court and (may have) flaunted a pendant, gifted by Henry in front of Anne's face. I don't think Jane gave a damn about what fate Anne would suffer. Jane may have helped orchestrate Anne's (final) fall..perhaps telling Henry, that She wouldn't feel like a 'true Wife' while Anne was still alive, or something similar? As much as I believe Jane to be a conniving, cunning and Highly aware Woman.. She is certainly not fully responsible for the murder of Anne. That responsibility lies with Henry. Is Jane an "accessory after the fact" ? I believe She is. It's well documented Henry would listen to "gossip" condemning Courtiers, Nobles and even His "best friends". I firmly believe Jane was pouring as much extra poison about Anne, into Henry's ears as She possibly could. Jane knew Anne's final fate wasn't going to be good, but Jane didn't care. Jane and Her family may well of encouraged Henry to "execute" Anne to make sure Jane's competitor was gone for good.. as You can see I'm not a Jane Seymour fan :) ..at least Anne never hid who She was, but Jane just appears sly and sneaky to Me

@neilbuckley1613

3 жыл бұрын

Whilst Edward Seymour comes across as intelligent, Thomas Seymour appears as a foolish man.

@TheOnlyElle.

3 жыл бұрын

@@neilbuckley1613 Thomas seems more impulsive..and openly cunning, than His brother. I agree

@royalcrow1900

2 жыл бұрын

I agree completely.

@traceyboswell

8 ай бұрын

I totally agree with you!!!

@Brenda-ny1gw

2 ай бұрын

Completely in agreement! The Boleyns were a horrible family, but somehow, everyone knew their true colors whilst the Seymours only pounced forward after the king was dead. They all played their cards very well

I think the Spanish ambassadors comment about Jane having “ a scorpion lurking under the honey” speaks volumes. He had first hand access to her and observed the fall of Anne Boleyn. I would listen to a contemporaries impression of Jane and take it at face value.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

I haven't heard that quote before, but it's a fascinating insight into her character. Thanks for sharing.

@irena4545

3 жыл бұрын

Didn't he also say that she seemed "haughty"? And since he also thought the accusations against Anne construed, even though he was no fan of hers, I tend to regard his opinion quite highly.

@charlottekey8856

2 жыл бұрын

Well, her brothers were real pieces of work, and we do know quite a bit about them.

@simonewardle3742

2 жыл бұрын

@@charlottekey8856 Not the nicest of men to call brother, I agree.

@Juliet_Tobin

2 жыл бұрын

@@irena4545 Yep. "Haughty and arrogant" I think were the words. Not 100% sure these were Chapuys words but I am sure it was a contemporary source.

I think Jane was pushed in front of Henry by Anne's enemies to reestablish the old faith and privileges. Regardless of that, as a former lady in waiting to Catherine of Aragon, and an ardent follower of the old religion, I think Jane grabbed her opportunity when Henry's eye fell on her. Unlike Anne, Jane knew she could become queen if she played her cards right. I also don't think that Jane, as a court insider, thought that Anne would simply go away. She knew Anne's personality and could probably predict that she wouldn't go quietly. I never saw Jane as a meek pawn, forced into a situation she didn't really know. After all, she didn't seem too concerned to step over her former mistresse's body to take her place next to the King.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, I struggle to see her as nothing but a pawn either (though I admit, I can't rule it out).

@cha2117

3 жыл бұрын

That could be something to do with Anne's quick demise. If Jane set it up.

@hawthorneantilles6755

2 жыл бұрын

I find it impossible to attribute malice or ill will to women taking what actions they could to secure their own position. I can’t imagine having so little control over my own life nor being unable to own property nor being expected to be traded like a mare to one decrepit old man after another and then be blamed for not producing correctly gendered children on command.

I don't think that any one of Henry's wives or mistresses really had any real choice if he wanted them, even his first wife had little choice in the matter. It was the way it was back then, women had literally no choice in the matter. Men ruled the women in their families and Henry ruled all.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Very true. It was a man's world for the most part (though I will say that some men were decent and didn't force their children to marry someone they hated, but the sad fact is they could force the issue if they wanted to).

@christianpatriot7439

3 жыл бұрын

Catherine Paar was already spoken for when Henry took an interest in her. She made the conscious decision to marry Henry because she saw marriage to him as a God-given opportunity to push him towards Protestantism.

@jasperhorace7147

2 жыл бұрын

Actually I think Catherine of Aragon was probably very pleased to marry Henry. She had been kept in limbo and poverty by Henry vii after the death of Arthur. Even though she was a daughter of Spain, they were a long way away and she was relatively unimportant. Henry didn’t have to marry her - he could have just followed his father’s example and procrastinated on her future and married someone else. Every year older Catherine got, her value on the marriage market diminished. Yes awful to be a daughter- nothing better than a pawn really.

@TiffanySommerfeld

2 жыл бұрын

Did Catherine of Aragon not have a choice? She could have said her marriage with Arthur was consulates if she really didn't want to be married to Henry correct? But she is ambitious like her mother and father....so I believe she felt it her right to be queen of England

@sallyramirez5980

2 жыл бұрын

@@TiffanySommerfeld She's the only one who did have a choice to marry Harry or go back to Spain. I think that she was more worried about disappointing her mother more than anything else. She also had a choice to accept the annulment of Harry and her marriage. If she had, I think that life for herself and Mary probably would have been easier but that pride got the best of her.

Henry was obviously the main villain. But I have always felt that Jane was not entirely innocent. She was far more eager to be Queen, than Anne was when Henry first started pursuing her. Anne initially ran away from Henry. She even left court for a while. It's all painted as her playing hard to get. But I don't think she was playing. She honestly did not want to a mistress.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

No, I don't think Anne wanted to be a mistress either. She had presumably already seen how that played out for the like of her sister and Bessie Blount.

@Antoinette617

3 жыл бұрын

Anne was already betrothed to Henry Percy. Who I believe was married. Henry broke up the couple in order to pursue Anne.

@carmendobrescu7472

3 жыл бұрын

Yes Jane was not as innocent as history makes her look like

@midnight_rose2337

2 жыл бұрын

I don’t believe Anne was playing hard to get either. She was just waiting for Henry to get bored of chasing her and find another. She was far too smart to become a mistress when that was such an unstable position.

@juanitarichards1074

2 жыл бұрын

@@Antoinette617 Anne was never betrothed to Percy. This is a myth perpetuated through the ages. Percy was already formally precontracted to another woman while he was at court.......and Anne had many admirers all of whom she kept at arms length, having the example of her sister before her.......and Percy was forced to go through with the marriage he was contracted for. Later, when Henry was trying to get his marriage to Anne annulled, he applied to Percy to help him by swearing to his betrothal to Anne and Percy refused and he went before an ecclesiastical court 3 times and swore on the blessed sacrament that he and Anne had never been betrothed and he was able to prove it via his formal precontract with his current wife. So Henry had Cranmer find other means, and he did via the kings affair with Anne's sister before he married her, which was within the forbidden degree of affinity.

Great video! Here's what I think: I don't think Jane was a homewrecker. Henry was done with Anne at the time Jane entered the picture. Of course, she was pregnant so he wouldn't have left her, but he seemed to have lost his feelings for her. He was done emotionally. I think her miscarriage sealed her fate. So if not Jane, I'm sure Henry would have found someone else to replace Anne with after Catherine's death and the miscarriage, possibly one of the others he cheated on her with. We know that the Catholic faction and the Seymours had a plot to dethrone Anne and replace her with Jane, who they hoped would restore Princess Mary to the succession, make sure she was treated well and also reverse all the heresies that plagued England. I can't remember when this plot is first mentioned in Chapuys' letters, but I think it was in march 1536. Whatever the date was, I definitely remember it being after Anne's miscarriage. Chapuys said that the plot was new, and he said that a bunch of people were coaching and advising Jane on how to snag the king. So this plot started after Henry accused Anne of bewitching him and started thinking of ending his marriage. He was considering taking a new wife as early as Feb. The Catholic faction only started the plot when they saw the direction in which the wind was turning. They knew that Henry was pretty much done with Anne. We can't know how much of this was Jane's choice. Her brothers were extremely ambitious and women didn't have much say in the 16th century, so it's possible that Jane had no choice and had to obey her brothers. We can never really know, though. I also don't think the Catholic faction and the Seymours would have had the guts to come up with such a plot and carry it, out if they weren't sure that Henry was done with Anne, after what he did to More and the others. I don't think Jane was involved with Anne's death plot, I think that was almost entirely Cromwell and Henry. And after the two of them planned everything, they got many nobles and some of Anne's servants in on their plot so that they could testify against Anne and declare her guilty.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

That is such a well thought out comment! Thank you for taking the time to put it together and share. Yes, I think Henry was looking for a way out of the Boleyn marriage too and probably would have found someone else had Jane not been there (just as I think he would have eventually found someone else to replace Catherine had Anne not been there). It would be fascinating to know just how involved Jane was in all this and how complicit, but as you note, sadly we never will. As for her brothers' ambition, unfortunately that took them all the way to the top and then all the way back down again, with both of them ending up on the scaffold. The Tudor royal family was a dangerous club to be a member of!

@student05-bdes52

3 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryCalling thank you! And yes, neither Anne nor Jane were Homewreckers. I'd rather be a poor peasant that be a part of that family 😂😂

@ElizabethF2222

3 жыл бұрын

@@student05-bdes52 So true! As Christina of Denmark famously said, "If I had two heads, Henry would be welcome to one but alas, I have only this one."

@graphiquejack

3 жыл бұрын

Henry wasn’t done with Anne, though. There are reports of him continuing to defend her after the January 1536 miscarriage right up until the days before her arrest. Either he was dissembling which he was guilty of before and since, or Anne still had some hold over him, right up until the end.

"It's good to be the king."- Mel Brooks: History Of The World Jane Seymour appears more like an opportunist with controlling influence by her family. She didn't object to it either because she knew the benefits of being queen despite Henry's history. Cold blooded and ruthless With Seymour, the end justified the means.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, I do think it took a certain amount of steeliness to see her relationship with Henry all the way through to marriage. Of course, had she known the real end (outliving Anne by less than 18 months and dying in her 20s), I suspect she would have reconsidered! Thanks for watching and commenting.

@andreamolinar6883

3 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryCalling somehow I doubt she would’ve reconsidered. She gave Henry his longed for son, became “the only wife he ever loved,” & left her family a great deal of power. The end justified the means as @CarmenMonoxide stated above.

@maritashanahan7866

3 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryCalling o

@earthalydelights

3 жыл бұрын

Opportunism is a trait she shared with Anne then.

@georginamannor8603

3 жыл бұрын

I blame it mostly on Henry.

I've always thought Jane Seymour knew exactly what she was doing. The thought of the King flirting with her, her brothers putting thoughts into her head that she could be the next Queen, the treatment supposedly Anne gave her, don't know if that's true or not, but, I do know, from reading something somewhere not too long ago, that when Jane married the King, she, too, wanted no trace of Anne left in court. She and Henry probably hand in hand destroyed any thing dealing with Anne. Some quote in some book said that Jane said she didn't want her ladies in waiting or any woman for that manner, wearing the French hood of "that woman", she might have said horrible woman, I don't remember, but, she said it in an ugly, hateful, demanding manner, so, unless it was fiction, I do believe that Jane knew what she was doing, and she didn't care who she supplanted. If Catherine of Arragon was still alive and there was no Anne Boleyn, and Henry wanted Jane, I believe Jane would have no qualms about taking over Catherine of Arragon's place on the throne and bed.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

I haven't come across the quotes you mention about her banning French hoods amongst her ladies but if you happen across them again at some point and they're not fiction, please do let me know. Many thanks :-)

@healinggrounds19

3 жыл бұрын

I believe Jane banishing French goods is something Phillipa Gregory created.

@irena4545

3 жыл бұрын

@@healinggrounds19 Alison Weir had it in her fiction, too. And she also has Jane dictate how many pearls a lady in waiting should wear - which, given how hard she tries to paintJane as an innocent saint, sounds rather superficial and bossy, so I wonder where this idea may have come from.

I think Jane was naive but knew exactly what she wanted and played her cards right. It seems to me cold hearted that she was engaged one day after Anne’s execution but then again Anne acted badly toward Catherine also. The real monster in my opinion is King Henry. I wonder if Jane hadn’t died soon after childbirth , if Henry would have grown tired of her and treacherously dispose of her too.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

I wonder that myself. His track record certainly indicates he would have cheated on her at the very least. Probably being mother to the heir would have protected her from death (unless she had an unfortunate 'accident'). I agree with you that the ultimate problem was Henry.

@kate_cooper

3 жыл бұрын

If Jane had survived Edward's birth, Henry would never have got rid of her because he would have needed a legimate marriage to the mother of his heir in order to keep Edward's status as his heir undisputed. Plus he would have hoped to get more sons out of her. That's not to say he would have treated her well or been faithful to her.

@christinetitus6388

3 жыл бұрын

@@kate_cooper Good point.

@julyqueen22

3 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryCalling actually henry did had a mistress or two while he was with Jane

@virgiliacoriolanus5093

3 жыл бұрын

Henry was awful to her. He was already displeased with her within a month or two of their marriage, saying publicly that he saw many beautiful women at court and maybe he'd remarried too hastily. He was angry that she wasn't pregnant yet. My theory is that Anne's downfall was quick (over and done with, within a month and a half) because Jane Seymour was pregnant or believed she was pregnant, and then she miscarried.

After reading alot about Henry VIII, I know Jane had little choice once he noticed her! But then she made many scheming moves after to get to be queen!

I totally agree with David Starkey when he says, 'Seymour played the Boleyn card, and played it extremely well.'. She was, in her own way, just as aggressively ambitious as her predecessor.

To place Jane below Anne as more scheming, I think shows a strong biased for Anna & Elizabeth 1 - Jane kissed a letter. Anne worked for 7 years, changed the religion and celebrated Catherine's death and tortured her daughter.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Absolutely a valid viewpoint and many people at the time much preferred Jane too. Thanks for watching and commenting.

@melodyclark1944

3 жыл бұрын

She said no for 7 years and Henry changed the religion

I know Jane wasn't entirely to blame for everything. After all, it wasn't her signature on those death-warrants. However, I don't think she was as naive as pop-culture would have us think. She was a lady-in-waiting to Catherine of Aragon for several years alongside Anne Boleyn, so she would've witnessed the way Anne held Henry off for so long by pleading her virginity. She watched, and she learned. There is a famous tale of how Jane was picking out items for her wedding to the king, while Anne awaited her execution in the Tower. If true, it would show sprinklings of a cold heart. But again, like a lot of other things in this story, we don't know for sure. I wonder if Jane was reminiscing over these events, as she was dying of child-bed fever, and if so, what her thoughts on them were. Did she pray for forgiveness for the part she played? I like to believe that she did, given how spiritual she was known to be.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Hi Danielle, thanks for taking the time to watch and comment. Yes, I agree she must have seen how Anne dealt with Henry and learnt from that. Likewise, I've never bought the 'butter wouldn't melt' persona that you usually see attributed to Jane in TV shows and movies. You needed to be a lot savvier than that to live in the court of Henry VIII. That story about her looking at wedding clothes rings a bell with me too, though I can't remember if I just saw it in an old movie, or if I also read it. I'll have to go check now or it'll bug me :-) I wonder too what women like Jane, Anne and Katherine Howard thought as they were about to die because they'd crossed paths with Henry.

Jane’s family started grooming her since they saw Henry was interested in her. The same thing would’ve occurred if Henry fancied another lady. Henry was one of the most capricious of men. He always had to get his way. His obsession with having a son consumed him that Catherine was cast aside and now Anne miscarried her baby. He didn’t want Anne Boleyn anymore. He couldn’t divorce her after he scandalized Christendom to marry her. He relied on Cromwell to help him rid his wife. Cromwell used Trump up charges to Arrest Anne Boleyn on charges of adultery, incest and, treason. Thomas Cranmer brought annulment papers to Anne in which she signed. That didn’t save her. Henry wanted her dead. He even sent for the swordsman from Calais. She had no way to escape her execution. Anne Boleyn died boldly living people wondering if she was really guilty. Henry’s betrothal and, marriage to Jane Seymour within days makes think Jane Seymour knew what happened to Anne Boleyn. I heard Claire Ridgeway say that some people at court weren’t comfortable that they rushed to get married just days after Anne’s death. I don’t think much of Jane Seymour. I hate Henry. I’m so glad that it was Anne Boleyn’s daughter Elizabeth I who became England’s greatest monarch.

@MadgeGreen

Жыл бұрын

Well said, and I Agee with you!

No. All 6 wives except the first one Catherine of Aragon, they were all pawns. And he murdered 2 of them. What a horrible person he was.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I'm not too crazy about him myself! :-)

I think you have that about right. Anne had shown that it was possible to dethrone a Queen and marry the king, something which was probably never contemplated prior to that. Now the entire court knew it was possible. So a combination of Henry’s roving eye, dislike of Anne and ambition on the part of the Seymour family gave Jane the perfect opportunity to repeat Anne’s achievement. He and her family appeared to have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

Calling the kettle black when Anne herself was a housewreaker. What come around goes around.

I suggest you read, "Had the Queen Lived". An alternative history had Anne produced a living son and did not die. It's a great read

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Hi Val, thanks for the recommendation. It sounds intriguing.

@mcpossum

3 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryCalling If I remember correctly, there is a whole "Had X Lived" type series. I think you'd enjoy it. Found it after a stint of throwing popcorn at the screen during a round of "Pop the historical inaccuracies!" on The Tudors (Oh, Jonathan Rhys Meyer can behead me any day *droolz*). Don't suggest giving Reign a gander. I lost my whole bag of popcorn 15 minutes in 🤣

@VampireSexGoddess

2 жыл бұрын

There's also a series called The Boleyn King by Laura Andersen that does the same thing. I own all six books.

@itsjustme7487

2 жыл бұрын

@@VampireSexGoddess I thought it was only a trilogy..

@VampireSexGoddess

2 жыл бұрын

@@itsjustme7487 She did a set of called The Virgin's Daughter, The Virgin's Spy, and The Virgin's War, focusing on Elizabeth, Minuette, and Dominic and their kids.

I think Anne was ultimately executed because the court knew that Henry would go back to her eventually. They were described as having a very passionate, stormy relationship, where they often fell out and then made up. Hence the rush to marry also. Had Anne been banished, I don't think it would have taken Henry long to run back to her with his tail between his legs.

How on earth does one "steal" a person? As far as I'm aware, unless someone is actually kidnapped, they have to go willingly. "She stole my husband" is often to be heard from women who refuse to acknowledge the real reasons for their marriage break-up, whatever those reasons might be. It is probably more comforting to assign blame to another woman ... but very insulting to the "stolen" husband to imply that he had no say in the matter and was simply carried away like a bag of groceries.

@aleksandraa4898

2 жыл бұрын

Very well written :)

@idontgiveafaboutyou

2 жыл бұрын

Lmao no one said they were kidnapped. The wording is not that deep and it’s just means she took him from his wife. Plain and simple.

Jane's rise never ceases to disturb me. Even when I try to view Jane with little prejudice. I think Jane had lots of help. No matter what she actually thought about Anne's downfall etc...I think King Henry Vlll would of been mighty proud of Queen Elizabeth's accomplishments in spite of them all. 🌹

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

She certainly had the messiest ascent to the throne of all Henry's wives, in terms of bloodshed at at least. Yes, I think Henry would have been proud (though perhaps a little jealous too) of all Elizabeth's accomplishments. I've always thought it's ironic that despite how badly he treated them, Henry is now remembered first and foremost for the women in his life (wives and Elizabeth). He probably didn't see that coming! :-) Thanks for watching and commenting.

@xosbabymama4703

3 жыл бұрын

He would’ve probably been proud yes but he would’ve still wished she was a man.

@karawilliamson106

3 жыл бұрын

Didn’t all woman have help getting them in front of the king??

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Hmm, not sure actually. Some were just his wife's ladies in waiting. Catherine of Aragon and Anne of Cleves were arranged marriages of course, but you could interpret that as the ultimate 'help'.

@jaclyn1755

3 жыл бұрын

​@@HistoryCalling Right. We would have to define "help." I was thinking in terms of a fractional political coup and coaching.

Thank you! Great video. I think that Henry was already done with Anne so if it wasn’t Jane it would have been someone else. But I also think she did the same thing Anne did with Henry by making him wait. And I believe her family pushed her just like Anne’s family pushed Anne toward Henry as well. Stay safe and take care-Debbie

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Hi Debbie. Yes, I think Anne's days were probably numbered as well, unless she'd fallen pregnant again and produced a boy and I agree that Jane definitely copied Anne's tactic of making Henry wait. There are so many similarities between the two when you think about it, as their involvement with Henry ultimately destroyed both of them and their families (given that Jane's son would end up having her brothers executed just as Henry had had Anne's brother killed).

@student05-bdes52

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed

I figure Jane was just as guilty as Anne was when it came to being the replacement (either as it being their own desire or their families'). Henry was actively chasing her, she was denying him just as Anne did. It was a game, because she knew full well he could have demanded her to be his mistress. I figure the game was developed and taught to them by the Duke of Norfolk. The Duke knew full well the King wanted to be rid of Anne and he was not friendly with her either.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, I do find it annoying that Anne has received much more criticism for replacing Catherine and Jane has for replacing Anne. A true case of double standards.

@buyerbware25

2 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryCalling . . . . with Anne getting a full helping of the dish she herself had served. I wonder if Anne truly believed that it could not happen to her ( having the one who cheated with her later be the one who cheated on her).

@juanitarichards1074

2 жыл бұрын

Anne was never guilty. She did not take the king from Katherine. Henry was already planning to annul his marriage to Katherine on Wolseys advice. Wolsey wanted a French alliance and to get rid of the Emperor and Katherine and that whole alliance. This he he had Mary's engagement to Katherines nephew dissolved and a new one made with the French kings son. At the same time Wolsey was casting about for a French royal lady for Henry to marry and solidify the French alliance. Henry went along with all this as he knew by now that Katherine was beyond child bearing and could never give him a son. But while Wolsey was in France negotiating for a French marriage Henry had become entranced with Anne and thought he could make her his mistress........but that never happened and I believe that in time, when the king would not give up his pursuit, he at some point told Anne he had been planning on leaving Katherine anyway and he wasn't annulling his marriage purely for her sake and that he was going to do it anyway, because of his need for a son, and that the French alliance would go ahead anyway whether he married a French princess or not........and this made Anne feel less guilty so she finally gave in and became secretly betrothed to the king. Wolsey on his return from France with a list of suitable French brides was astonished that the king had changed his mind and wanted to marry Anne instead......after all Wolseys hard work, machinations and string pulling......and ironically if it had been any other woman but Anne, the Pope likely would have given Henry his annulment......Popes gave kings annulments all the time, but this one was too difficult and too much scandal and controversy surrounded Anne. If it had been a French princess instead, Henry would have gotten his annulment.

@buyerbware25

2 жыл бұрын

@@juanitarichards1074 I know that Anne Boleyn made it clear in her letters to Henry that she objected to his idea of making her his mistress rather than his wife, but did she ever object to being pursued by him because he was already married?

@juanitarichards1074

2 жыл бұрын

@@buyerbware25 Yes she did. She sent back his gifts and she also wrote him a letter reminding him he was a married man and that she did not wish to incur the displeasure of the "good Queen Katherine".........then she left court and hoped Henry would let her go but there was no chance of that happening. And he sent her a dead buck killed by his own hand to remind her who was the hunter and who the hunted. And Thomas Wyatt the poet also wrote of how Anne was trapped and said "While I kindly am served, I'd like to know what she has deserved". He knew there was no way out for Anne.

Anne committed all of the offenses which some might level at Jane, homewrecker, adulteress, etc. Anne was cruel to Catherine and her daughter Mary. That is where Jane was definitely the better person. Jane interceded with Henry to restore both of his daughters to royal favor.

@janicem9225

2 жыл бұрын

I know. It makes me furious how so many women have been perfectly alright with what Anne did, and actually seem to worship a Jezabel like her. It seriously makes me wonder what kind of women these are, who are fine with adultery, and stealing a husband away from another woman, and being a part of so much misery and death. Are all these women who worship someone like Anne, simply Jezabels themselves? 🙄 Just another sign of the times, I guess.

Thank you for your hard work! I look forward to my drive to work because i get to listen to history calling.

Thank you!!!!!!! My point exactly Jane was not so sweet and innocent as she was made out to be in my opinion she definitely had a hand in the downfall to Anne Boleyn!! I am a HUGE Anne Boleyn fan she was so misunderstood a strong and outspoken woman beyond the time she lived in!! Thank you for this video!! ♥️

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

You're very welcome. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

@ladymeghenderson9337

3 жыл бұрын

Veberley, Anne is my historical heroine, she was innocent, her real crimes were, over ambition, her temper and her failure to produce a male heir which was probably more his fault than hers

@kimmycupreacts

2 жыл бұрын

@@ladymeghenderson9337 not probably. It was his fault.

@blueskyonsummer

Жыл бұрын

Is not enought to be strong and outspoken to deserve admiration, I cannot admire a woman who fight to destroy another woman. It's a matter of sisterhood in wich I do believe. Someone tells to blame the man, but forget that it's hanks to woman like Anne that we have guys lite Henry. They go together.

@traceyboswell

8 ай бұрын

You are right!!

I believe it was a combination of things. We also must take into affect Henry's injury where he almost died, the blow to his head seemed to bring a noticeable personality change, he became more narcissistic and paranoid. Anne more emboldened as Queen, may have become more forceful and dictatorial in her opinions with Henry making Henry feel his power being usurped. She may have overstepped no longer a constituent but an equal. Along with the misscarriages and the myths of the time (bad omens etc associated with multiple off spring still born or dead), and guilt over Catherines death. That things were becoming trumped up against Anne, her bringing the ill omens to the house. Anne could also no longer be controlled by her family and others, along with her King. Along with the whispers of Henrys closest advisors playing on his paranoia her fate was coming to a swift end. I think Jane the total opposite was literally thrown in Henry's path as an alternative, it served all purposes well, and all were involved. It gave Henry the out he needed to get rid of Anne all the quicker on a fast track. As forceful as Anne was she could not be allowed to live, and Henry was not going to go through again what he went through with Catherine constantly in the back ground. Although the people hated Anne, they would not have allowed the same to happen again without losing faith in their King. As it stood, there were grumbles even though there was a ready made explanation in place that she was cuckolding with her brother and others and using black arts and treason against her King. Although Jane may have been an opposite personality, Im sure she was not adverse to her and her families rise in station. Being just a girl, what higher station than catching the eye and marrying a King. The role of high born ladies at the time was to bring wealth and stature to their families. She was born into that role, taught that is her role and would have been her goal in life. To say that she would be adverse is just ludicrous. But think about the horror when Anne was killed. Im sure she was then wondering what she bought into and if she bit off more than she could chew. One miss step, one miscarriage and what would be her fate?? Im sure it was a very nervous pregnancy, the pressure would have been enormous, life and death in the balance literally on what she could produce.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Henry's head injury is one of the most interesting unknowns here. I'd love to know how severe it was and if he did have any brain damage. It would be fascinating to know if that affected his choices in the spring of 1536. Like you, I think the whole situation was the result of a combination of factors though. Thanks for watching and commenting.

@ElizabethF2222

3 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryCalling Henry was cruel long before that head injury I have read. First thing he did on becoming king was execute two of his father's top advisors, Empson and Dudley, I believe.

@nomadpurple6154

3 жыл бұрын

@@ElizabethF2222 thank you for this piece of information

Totally love all your videos! It brings me back to my old obsession with the Tudors. And your voice’ s so comfy

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much :-) You'll be glad to know that after next week's video, I'm going to go back to the Tudors (that's the plan anyway).

I LOOOOOOOOOVE this podcast!!!!! Accurate AF, FINALLY someone who does their homework!!!! ❤❤❤❤

Really enjoyed this vid! In my opinion, Jane did the best she could with the situation that she was in. Its not like she could really tell Henry no.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much. I agree she couldn't really have told Henry no (at least not for long), but I've always wondered how resistant she was to the idea of displacing Anne anyway. We'll never know for sure, but I've always found it quite unfair how much criticism Anne gets for replacing Catherine, when Jane doesn't get as much for replacing Anne. It was certainly a complicated royal family! :-)

@pessimisticideas3075

3 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryCalling I completely agree with you. Anne is actually my favorite of Henry's wives. I admire her moxie! To be honest, for some odd reason I have never really thought about why Jane never received the kind of backlash that Anne did. Not until you raised the issue in my mind. That's an issue I'm going to be thinking on in the coming days. Thank you truly for the new thought to ponder!

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Anne's my favourite too. She had her faults of course, but she was smart and charismatic and I've always admired how brave and composed she was at the end. As for why Jane didn't receive the same backlash, I wonder if it was just that Anne was so disliked that people were simply happy she was gone and not really thinking about the double standards Jane was benefitting from (though as I mentioned near the end of the video, there was some sympathy for Anne when people saw how fast Jane took her place - just not as much as there was for Catherine).

@pessimisticideas3075

3 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryCalling I have a channel recommendation for you, from one Anne Boylen fan to another. "The Anne Boylen Files and Tudor Society" Claire Ridgeway runs the channel & has some really thought provoking videos, especially on Anne Boylen.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, I watch her channel sometimes too. She's very good and always very much grounded in the primary evidence, which I like (so many people seem to just read a couple of Wikipedia entries, then pump out very sub-standard videos). I don't know how she has the energy to do daily videos so often though. I take my hat off to her!

Why call Jane Seymour a "Home Wrecker" while Anne was a woman "ahead of her time" ? They did the same thing, "stealing" another woman's husband. And we have actual documentation of Anne encouraging Henry to execute Catherine. We have no such records for Jane. Yet, again, one is always viewed as a home-wrecker and the other a feminist.

@Rat_Queen86

2 ай бұрын

I totally agree with you. I’ve never been a fan of Anne Boleyn due to how she mocked Catherine of Aragon for not being able to have children, how she treated Mary the 1st and her general bitchiness when she became queen. In the story of Jane Seymour, she just got exactly what she did handed back to her.

You are an excellent narrator. I love listening to and watching your videos. You raise excellent points and relay information with eloquence. Love your channel! 👑 ❤

@HistoryCalling

Жыл бұрын

Wow, thank you :-)

New subscriber here. Very educational and a lovely accent as well xx

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Aww, thank you :-)

Jane Seymour didn’t then and doesn’t now inspire warm feelings (except from Henry of course!) She and Henry celebrated their marriage the same night Anne was buried, which is really creepy. The Holbein portrait of Jane shows a reserved yet determined-looking person, not appealing. The Seymour family moved in like the Mob plotting a heist, with each one schooled to perfection.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

I know, I've never particularly warmed to her either. As for the Seymour family, what goes around comes around and it all fell apart on them later, with Jane dead and her son having her two brothers executed.

@harrietlyall1991

3 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryCalling Very true!

@CocoCece08

3 жыл бұрын

Anne Boleyn brought her troubles on herself. Stealing a married man from his real wife and mistreating her stepdaughter.

@katemaloney4296

3 жыл бұрын

I read somewhere that Thomas Seymour had intended to ask his nephew for Elizabeth's hand in marriage. I think he may have but was turned down. Even Edward knew his Seymour kin were sleazeballs of the lowest order.

I always thought Jane was not as meek and obedient as she appeared to be. It's almost uncanny that she was the exact opposite of Anne in temperaments and even looks as if she was 'crafted' to entice a King who was tired of his 'turbulent' and opinionated wife. I think it was at first 'luck' (in her family's eyes) that Henry cast his glance upon her. The rest was calculated, I'm unsure how much of her being in the 'plot,' but I'm very sure her family was orchestrating their 'affair.' However, I don't think she willed for Anne Boleyn to be executed. Those are the doings of Henry and with the assistance of Cromwell. I'm not saying that Jane and her family were not glad of it, too, by the way. But when I think about it, even if Jane was not attracted to Henry (in exception of gaining power as Queen), she couldn't quite reject him too, could she. I mean, he's the King, after all.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, I don't know that she could have foreseen Anne's fate. It was so unprecedented. As you say, once she was in with Henry, she also couldn't really have backed out either.

I did not discover your podcasts until well after this one first appeared. Like all the others, it is a fascinating subject, elegantly presented. You examine the sources with a meticulous eye for their probable authenticity, exploding many of the romanticized interpretations of Tudor history that we get from novels, films, and many other--less careful--podcasts. At the same time, your presentation is lively and personal! One thing I learned from this post was that Jane was a devout Catholic. I'd gotten the impression from some novel or other that she leaned Protestant. I'm sorry she did not live long enough for us to have more information about what kind of person she really was, and what kind of queen she would have become as the honored mother of the only one of Henry's male children to outlive him.

@HistoryCalling

Жыл бұрын

Thanks Ann. I'm glad you enjoyed hearing about Jane and I agree it's a shame we don't know more about her.

Really nice to see the slightly nauseating "meek little saint Jane" image challenged! I don't think for one minute she went after the position of Queen off her own back, and I think would happily have married anyone her parents put forward as suitable, and I also think if it wasn't her, it would have been someone else, as you say. I got a really fasincating glimpse into what it felt like at court with the report of the French ambassador that Anne had lost weight, was terrified, convinced everyone was spying on her, and in a truly sorry state. Like being in the USSR under Stalin everyone was out to survive and no one was your friend or could be trusted. So she went along with what her rapacious brothers were planning, knew what she was doing and played the game. But not as the main playmaker. I think her reputation is also a subsequent later fiction which attempts to blacken independent women and raise obedient little women to sainthood. She had quite a strong character and deliberately made her court into a rather conservative, old fashioned, dull and rigid place where even French hoods (oh là là) were banned. Had she lived, I don't think she would have kept Henry's passion. He couldn't have done away with her as the mother of the male heir, of undoubted virtue and legally married, but she would have had to put up with many other rivals. She would have risked going down in history as dull and slighly unpleasant in her dislike of entertainment, culture and education (she couldn't read or write except for her name). We'll never know.

@lindaterrell5535

3 жыл бұрын

Then how,did,she read the letter she returned to Henry?

@healinggrounds19

3 жыл бұрын

Jane knew how to read and write in English. Maybe not well, but most noble daughters knew how to read and write. Letters and notes were how they kept in contact with family and friends. Many girls didn't receive lessons in Latin, Greek or other languages as boys did. Elizabeth I was an exceptional female was fluent in English, Spanish, French, Latin, Greek, Portuguese, Italian and Flemish in speaking and writing!

@annekane7660

2 жыл бұрын

Did she not return the letter without reading it?

If Jane had found a way to refuse Henry, he would have focused on another woman. Anne’s doom settled over her before Jane was a factor.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, I think it probably would have been someone else, if not Jane.

@katemaloney4296

3 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryCalling Perhaps, but there was no love lost betwen Anne and Jane, so what better way to stick it to your soon-to-be-dead ex that you are replacing her with her Lady-In-Waiting? That ranks up there next to gouging someone's eye out AFTER you kicked them in the crotch.

No matter Jane's role or involvement in Anne's murder, I think all of that came to a head the moment she decided to inject herself into Henry's business affairs and Henry told her "It will serve you well to remember you position. Forget not what became of your predecessor!" Did she deserve to die? No. However, she gambled and won, but she lost in the end. For the record, Jane was a concubine or a breeding mare--no more or less than the women who came before her. She had no worth other than her son.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, that was a really chilling comment made to Jane by Henry and always suggests to me that post-Anne, he saw his women as expendable. I also agree that Henry's main interest in her was in her ability to produce a son. Catherine at least, also brought with her a Spanish alliance and in later years I think he sought a distraction and even companionship with Katherine Howard and Catherine Parr, but I don't think he was at that point yet in Jane's time.

I believe that Jane Seymour is not as the innocent little mouse that she was and still is portrayed. It was reported that Jane was plain looking and dull, so how did she attract the attention of the King? It is said that she was the opposite to Anne Boleyn, but I would imagine that there were loads of beautiful women at Court for Henry to choose from. As it was reported that Jane played the hard to get and found sitting on King Henry’s knee, I feel that she knew what she was doing/playing at. As I feel Anne Boleyn schemed to get ‘rid’ of Queen Catherine, now Jane seemed to be doing to progress the riddance of Anne Boleyn. It is lucky for Jane that she gave birth to a boy and died just after child birth or she too would have been looking hard at the scaffold!!!!

….I think only Anne Boleyn could be truly called a “home wrecker”….The woman had a very long game plan to secure Henry from his long-time wife…

Great channel, newly discovered for me. I subscribed 👍

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks and welcome :-)

With the exception of Kathryn Parr, every one of Henry’s wives was to some degree a politically useful pawn of an ambitious family. Catherine of Aragon was useful as a cementing of an alliance between England and Spain, Anne Boleyn represented a chance for the Boleyns and Howards to advance, Jane meant increased influence for the Seymours, Ann of Cleves meant an alliance of England and the Protestant German duchies, and Catherine Howard was hoped to be able to return Henry to the Catholic fold, and to enrich her family. Daughters were tools in the hands of their families back then. As you noted, they were expected to do as they were told.

I have no pity for Anne. She broke up Katharine's marriage and treated Katharine and Mary terribly. If you marry an affair partner don't be surprised if they cheat.

@wengercleopatra2150

3 ай бұрын

I know right? Katharine was the true queen and Mary an impressive monarch in her own right .

@edithengel2284

Ай бұрын

Her end was pitiable, nonetheless.

What I find interesting is that all of Henry's children do show how much they are like their mothers. Mary looking for love , Edward ignorant of what is going on around him and being manipulated by those around him ( but that just may be cause he was young), Elizabeth being smart and strong but having cut herself off from relationship that would weaken he status as the queen.

I think it's probably reasonable to think that most people would have thought Henry would annul his marriage (which he actually did so that would be a fairly good assumption) and it sounds like most people were shocked that he beheaded Anne so I can't imagine that Jane knew that was the plan until after Henry had thought of it. Also, can't imagine many women wanting to pursuade a man to execute wife #2 so they could be wife #3, maybe it would have looked different from that time but now the knowledge that someone was willing to execute their wife would make me more terrified than excited about the idea of marrying her. Either way you look at it though Henry is the one who made that decision and whatever role Jane might have had in it he went on to execute Katherine Howard and nearly executed Katherine Parr after so clearly something he was happy to do (and that's over a wide period of time when his various advisors and people with influence over him would have changed which makes me even more inclined to think it's something he saw as an easy solution) I wouldn't be surprised if Jane started by trying to rebuff him without saying no (I can't imagine he took that word well) because she didn't want to become just another mistress but then started trying to persuade him to marry her once she realised that was on the cards. It's so hard to know how this would all have looked to someone from that time period though.

Excellent video!

According to Chapuys who HATED Anne but had no reason to badmouth Jane she, Jane, was "well taught" to entice Henry, including saying how "cursed" his marriage to Anne was and that her faction made sure that none who disagreed were present when she did so in order to get as much agreement for these comments as possible. Compared to Anne actually escaping to Hever, trying to ignore Henry (Karen Lindsay's Six Wives books goes as far as calling it harassment on the job aka Anne's boss harassing her while she did her job serving Katharine as lady in waiting! Even David Starkey, not an Anne fan, states how she "pretty coolly, stepped through her, Anne's blood" to become Queen.) Jane doesn't come across as....any better. Also there isn't a single primary source stating that the fact that Anne would be murdered to make room for her did as much as make her hesitate/give her pause. So... Also she may have supported Mary but there is nothing stating that she even gave a thought to little motherless Elizabeth. That said, I do believe that Jane WAS another victim of Henry's, all six of them were. Do I sympathize with Jane? Some. Marrying a wife killer who then threatened to kill her just for having an opinion on the Pilgrimage of Grace is NIGHTMARE fuel. However....I sympathize more with Katharine, Anne and Catherine (Howard). Even Katherine Parr whose husband's pedo treatment of 14 year old Elizabeth makes me sick gets more sympathy from me than Jane.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, Jane is a really polarising figure. It's so hard to know what she thought of the whole situation and you're correct that there's nothing to indicate that she regretted what was happening to Anne. I've never particularly warmed to her myself, though ultimately I blame Henry for his various wives' fates.

@elisabetta611

3 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryCalling Agreed, overall HENRY is to blame and to think that his choices traumatized BOTH his daughters terribly....I mean Robert Dudley stated that Elizabeth told him that she'd never marry when she was EIGHT. The age she was when poor little Catherine Howard, a stepmother who showered her with kindness, was executed. It breaks my heart. I mean...also Mary's marriage to Philipp was overshadowed by Henry's treatment of Mary's poor mother. She truly loved Philipp and apparently he already made advances to Elizabeth while Mary was alive. So heartbreaking.

@pg9513

3 жыл бұрын

There's also hardly any source that confirms Jane's famous warmth and altruism. She seemed to be aloof, conceited and extremely devious. Rather cold. She should be pitied like Henry's other wives (as he was horrible to her, regardless), celebrated for her intelligence and courage instead of relegating her to her unfair and eternal role of the angel of the hearth, but we must stop treating her as if she were some kind of Holy Mary, which she was certainly not.

Why does the thumbnail call jane the homewrecker queen when we all know that was anne boleyn and jane seymour literally mended the home anne broke?

She was the only wife who really knew whom she was marrying

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Hmm, I'm not as sure. I think she had a good idea of what kind of man he was, but I think Catherine Parr probably had the best insight of all Henry's wives, having seen him dump two wives and kill another two.

@kathyjaneburke2798

3 жыл бұрын

Katherine Parr knew as well.

@dianazhora7357

3 жыл бұрын

She may not have realized that he had the capability of ordering the execution of his wife. Jane Seymour married the King the day after Anne Boleyn had her head chopped. off.

As an aside, and nothing to do with yet another excellent video, frankly, I've always hated when people say that a woman stole a man from another woman. No one can be stolen unless they want to go. A guy can easily be faithful no matter how a woman might flaunt herself at him. And vice versa, a man can't steal a woman away from another man.

People really have double standards when it comes to Anne and Jane, painting Anne to be a calculated home-wrecker willing to do anything for a crown and Jane as an angel who could do no wrong, despite the fact that she also replaced his previous wife just as Anne did Catherine. I think primarily it comes from the idea that Anne somehow 'got what she deserved'. This completely ignores the fact that Anne literally ran away from court to avoid Henry at first showing there clearly wasn't some grand scheme to cheat her way to the throne.

@wengercleopatra2150

3 ай бұрын

No she didn’t! Anne encouraged Henry every step of the way! Katharine of Aragon the true queen of England! Saint Mary Tudor goddess of the Catholic Church!

@abaderinfluence

3 ай бұрын

@@wengercleopatra2150 She did in fact flee court and return to hever castle, which isn't the sign of someone wanting to be romanced. Henry however then wrote countless love letters which must have swayed her, bc eventually she did come around and decide she wanted to be his wife. Whether that's bc his letters made her fall in love, or she decided he was so persistent it would be a bad idea to say no to the king, or ambition finally won out over caution, we'll never know. But it's very clear that she did not set out to seduce the king, she wanted to marry henry percy and never forgave Wolsey for stopping it, and fled court when Henry made his interest clear because she didn't want to be used as he'd used her sister.

Wouldn't that make Anne Boleyn a homewrecker too? She did steal Henry VIII from Catherine of Aragon, his first wife!

Oh please if Jane was a homewrecker so was Anne Boleyn. Anne helped destroy Henry VIII's marriage to Katherine of Aragon.

I’d love to see videos on Margaret Pole, the princes in the tower and the imposters, and whether Wolsey committed suicide as depicted in the Tudors. (I know he didn’t but where did that idea come from?). Also a video about Edward IV supposedly being pledged to another woman which is why Richard took the throne from his nephew. Is there any basis to this? Just some suggestions for future videos. I love your channel and wish I had discovered it sooner

I enjoyed your narrative. Thank you

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you, I'm glad you liked it :-)

I've read so much over the years about the Tudors, and Jane Seymour was definitely a calculated schemer.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Definitely one way of reading her character for sure.

@wednesdayschild3627

3 жыл бұрын

Henry planned it all. Henry told Cromwell exactly what to do. Henry sent for the swordsman.

@ScorpionFlower95

3 жыл бұрын

@@wednesdayschild3627 yeah, didn't he hire the swordsman before giving Anne a trial or something? The guy was set on murdering her

@wednesdayschild3627

3 жыл бұрын

@@ScorpionFlower95 very possible he did hire the swordsman before she was found guilty.

Your a great teacher.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you :-)

6:31 the dude on the right was staring with an expression shown as if he saw this scene before.

Great video and great information thank you very much. I think Jane knew exactly what she was doing.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Hi Mary, thanks for watching and commenting. Glad you enjoyed it.

King Henry was King. He made his own daughter by Catherine of Aragon, a bastard. And he loved Catherine of Aragon for a long time. No one could brook or contradict him--and then stay alive. When he wanted a boy, it didn't matter which wife he had to get rid of to get that boy child. His line depended on male heirs. This fact had been established by his father, King Henry VII, after he triumphed in the brutal War of the Roses.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Very true. On the subject of Henry VII, if you haven't already you should check out my new video on him and the one coming next week as they deal with the issues you mention regarding needing a male heir (more particularly next week's video actually).

@katemaloney4296

3 жыл бұрын

Ironically, for all the trouble he went through to get his heir, the Tudor Era ended in 1603. He never lived on. Fate got the last laugh.

I think Henry wanted to get rid of Ann and Jane just made him do it quicker.

Apart from the issue of this history, I was really dismayed to see the Tower of London's monument to Anne Boleyn. What on earth would the unfortunate Queen herself have made of it? Surely she'd have been bewildered. For me it resembles nothing so much as one of those awful garden trampoline frames. the only thing missing is the elastic spring jump net!

Jane was the first woman who knew that it was possible to take the place of a current queen. She actively sought to dethrone Anne. While Henry was guilty as well Jane and her family saw how Henry was easily manipulated. I also think they had an idea that the only way to legitimize the marriage was to have Anne killed. Who better to kill her without threat of punishment but the manipulated Henry. I’m so glad the Tudor child who was the longest and best monarch was Anne’s daughter. I hope Henry saw this from hell and regretted his treatment of her mother.

@emilybarclay8831

10 ай бұрын

Anne absolutely intended to supplant Catherine as queen. She literally refused to sleep with Henry until he got a divorce which was not unheard of for childless royal couples at the time. Jane did nothing that Anne didn’t do, and Jane treated her step children fairly unlike Anne

The main reason Henry had Anne killed because she didn't have a son. But Anne HAD been pregnant with a boy, but then she found out that Henry was having intercourse with Jane, which caused Anne to have a full on panic attack which caused her to miscarry. People say that Anne and Jane were playing the same game, Jane just did it better, but the thing is, Anne didn't know what would happen. Whereas Jane knew Henry's reputation, and KNEW that Henry was going to do some demented crap to get rid of Anne. And it's also said that Jane seymour was coached on trying to charm the king. But Anne, didn't have much interest in marrying Henry. But whenever she was finally won over, she didn't get much help, she had to go through a lot of the drama on her own. I absolutely HATE Jane Seymour and there is NOTHING anyone can say to change my mind.🤨

@codename495

3 жыл бұрын

Panic attacks don’t cause miscarriages. Chromosomal abnormalities, genetic disorders, malnutrition, and even physical trauma cause miscarriages.

@sparkykitty6870

3 жыл бұрын

I hate Ann Boleyn. She tormented Catherine and Mary. I don't think Jane is at fault for Ann's death. Ann just reaped what she sowed. And I'm sure Henry would of had her killed eventually when he tired of her.

I don't know how involved Jane was in getting rid of Anne or how manipulated she was by her family. But I do think she was put into a difficult position once Henry had made his interest in her clear, as she couldn't really say no to him. If she hadn't made an attempt to displace Anne, she would have had to become his mistress instead and that would have damaged her reputation and made it difficult for her to find a husband later on, especially as she didn't have anything else going for her. Politics has always been ruthless.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, I think she was arguably in a no-win situation once she'd caught Henry's attention. I think Catherine Parr really wasn't keen on marrying him for instance, but really couldn't get out of it (and I've seen nothing to suggest she ever pursued him in the way that Jane may have done).

In 2019 I had the opportunity to attend an Eventide service at St. George's Chapel in Windsor, UK. That's where many royals are buried. I was amazed to see Jane Seymour's crypt right in the middle of the floor, in the aisle that goes up to the altar.

Personally, I think I go a bit with the Alison Weir Six Wives novel about Jane Seymour - which depicted Jane as one of Katherine's devoted ladies-in-waiting, forced to watch closely as she was cast aside and humiliated. Having been at Court for so long Jane would have had her own views on Anne Boleyn and possibly felt that she could help restore the old religion and get vengeance on Katherine's behalf. In fact it's worth considering that she might have intentionally rejected Henry until Katherine was dead - rather than Anne - to allow herself to become his prey. Her attitude was like many at Court who saw the unattractive side of Anne and therefore didn't much care about her. What finally happened to her though, must still have come as a terrible shock to Jane. For anyone with a conscience I think it would have been difficult to live with.

It's hard to believe that Jane's family manhandled and manipulated her into a position to become Queen against her will. And being Queen of England was a tempting prize. She knew what she was doing, though she may not have wanted Anne executed but banished.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

I know. We'll never really know exactly what happened, but it would be fantastic to know Jane's thoughts on it and just how manipulated or not she really was. Thanks for watching and commenting.

Henry only loved himself, he only wanted a legitimate male heir so went through women until he got what he wanted.

I believe she did what her family told her to. History shows just how ambitious and grasping the Seymour family was. Look at what happened when Jane's brother's fought over her son. They wanted power and they got it.

I don't necessarily agree with the general portrayal of Henry's wives as victims (except maybe Catherine of Aragon). Yes, Henry is obviously a horrible person, but it seems to me his wives had more agency in what was happening. While it is true, Anne Boleyn was a victim of Henry, falsely accused in order to be disposed of, at the end of the day, she had been a player herself. Same thing with Jane... they all knew very well what they were doing, what the risks and rewards were. It's just that people like Anne or later on Cromwell and many others over time lost the game.

I think she was very smart! She learned from the mistakes of her predecessors and played her cards and presented herself very well... She wasn't oblivious, she just present herself as being too good and kind to be a player as Anne was... I like her, tough

No different than Anne "stealing" Henry from Katherine. Lol And I probably would have liked Jane much more as a person, than Anne, truth be told. AND, I would have been rooting for Jane, the entire time. 😆 And all you people whining about her taking him away from Anne...."what goes around, always comes back around", and I think Anne learned that lesson in the end. 😂

@edithengel2284

Ай бұрын

Kind of an extreme lesson, no?

Back in those days, young woman or girls have very little to say about who they would marry or what they could do with their lives. Jane's father and brothers looking to gain more wealth and power for themselves, knowing that things were not so happy between Anne and the King pounced on the opportunity. In everything that I have read about Jane Seymour she was a religious person, holding strong to her Catholic faith. She would think it a terrible sin to come between a man (king or not) and his wife. She was a pawn just as everyone of Henry VIII's wives were. A marriage to each benefited some MAN. It was the same with Anne, Her Uncle the Duke of Norfolk hated Wolsey and the power he had wanting it for himself. He ordered that his sister's daughter lure the King to her bed. Katherine of Aragon a very young widow, ignored and forgotten by all accept Henry VII who did not want to return any of her dowry to Spain told all he meant for his son, Henry to marry her. Men thought more about their horses and dogs then they did their wives or daughters or even sisters. Edward VI stating in his will that he wanted Jane Grey to be Queen when he died......he was sick and under the thumbs of first his Uncle Seymour then Norfolk. It was what they wanted not was good for the country or anyone else. And who writes the History.....MEN.

I was lucky enough to recently see the main portrait of Jane used in this video (and one of my favorite portraits ever) in person and it was quite something Holbein had so much riding on that portrait, trying to present an image at least of a quiet and reserved woman who wasn’t going to be a problem to the stability of the country to smooth over the horror and surprise of everything that surrounded Anne’s death; it’s always struck me as a piece of propaganda first and even though I would like to believe that Jane was a good person I know Henry WASN’T and I agree with your assessment that neither she nor her family thought he would murder Anne to make way to marry Jane Women’s ability to navigate their own path when it’s clear that senior male family members were also involved screams to me “going along to get along” and by “get along” I mean the usual patriarchal and legal pressures put on (esp) young unmarried women . . . I fault Jane way less than maybe was accurate and always saw the male accounts of the ‘cat fights’ between them as standard tabloid gossip of the times: misogynistic and belittling of powerful women who probably never laid a hand on each other in anyone’s presence and had incidents of “this tyrant who can’t hear ‘No’ is making our social dynamic difficult” blown out of proportion by the “social media” of the day, personal accounts-not saying that things didn’t happen but I don’t think Anne attacked Jane and I don’t think Jane would have assaulted the Queen . . . Not saying people weren’t spicy back then, but so much social clout would have been lost in the shifting-sands uniquely strange Henry-verse court they were all realizing they were in . . . But with Henry being the way he was I credit a lot on the part of all of his wives to self-preservation against an unpredictable, violent, seemingly all-powerful narcissist who loved to play games in his relationships and who was clearly abusive (iykyk) and don’t blame them for anything. I can’t even imagine being forced into his sphere as a woman 😢 New subscriber and I’m loving all the content, thanks!

From what I can tell hearing of both of them... Anne didn’t want to be Queen originally (Henry dissolved her engagement to keep her around) and she eventually fell in love and then wanted to be his wife and Queen and belieber she would honor him better than Catherine. While Jane definitely wanted to be Queen from the start and took Anne down to do it. So I am full team Anne.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Some resistance from Anne in the early days wouldn't surprise me. I suppose she knew he'd already bedded her sister, which can't have helped.

@katemaloney4296

3 жыл бұрын

I've been Team Boleyn since October 1982. Read everything I can get my hands on. Considering Anne is the defacto Mother of The United States of Anerica, I think she is awesome.

This all makes me wonder if Annabelle Wallis’ performance as Jane on the Tudors was even partially accurate.

@totheedge25

2 жыл бұрын

Anita Briem's performance seemed to be more accurate than Wallis'.

I probably don't know the whole history on what is the culture and the morality during the time of King HenryViii..watching the tudors, i did quite hate Jane Seymour because she's like feeling demure and innocent. but when she did an effort on how to reconnect the daughter's of HenryViii, i already love her, and i felt sad when she died of childbirth.

At times the "meek little mouse" is the most ferocious and venal of animals when pushed. With the Seymours behind her (and having watched the Boleyn's push two daughters on Henry VIII, Jane did as she was told.

I don't think Jane was a homewrecker. Anne, in the end, simply got caught up in her own web which led to her end. During their stage of courtship, Anne would hype up the fact that she would be different from Katherine and give Henry a son etc. etc. And she was right to a point. She was différé in terms of her personality; she had a quick temper, she was outspoken and wasn't afraid to back down from Henry and she damaged his ego sometimes (which he didn't like but tolerated at first) while Katherine was quiet, knew her place from her upbringing as a Princess and training to be a Queen and didn't challenge Henry until he tried to divorce her and toss her aside. She knew when to be bold and passionate and how to pick her battles but Anne didn't. But when the time for being different mattered most (giving the King a son), Anne fell short and didn't deliver. We all know now that it wasn't her fault but back then, it was thought that the gender of the baby relied on the woman so Henry was upset with her. I think his patience ran out with her in the end because: 1. She had the audacity to not give him a son 2. She was constantly embarrassing him in front of the court with her behaviour Enough was enough in his eyes and she pushed her luck. So I think after having deal with someone like Anne, he wanted another wife who was more like Katherine, and Jane fit the bill. She was demeure, kind, quiet, obedient and wouldn't challenge him, while also still being young enough to give him a son. Ultimately Jane became a Saint in Henry's eyes for two reasons: 1. She gave birth to Edward 2. She had the decency to die before she outlived her purpose/before Henry lost interest in her. Simple as that.

I think ALL of his wives, including Anne Boleyn and Jane Seymour, were just two among many of psycho Henry VIII and his thousands upon thousands of victims,although if true, I despise the way Anne treated KOA and Mary. I think Jane was definitely more calculating that she appeared, but in the end, it all comes down to selfish Henry and what HE wanted. You can't really refuse an offer of marriage by the king, could you? You and your family would most likely lose EVERYTHING! Anne Boleyn even tried to get away from him by escaping to Hever Castle in Kent, but he relentlessly chased her even there. Even considering how Henry treated KOA and Anne treated Mary, Jane could never have planned, or really have anything to do, with Anne's execution. It all comes down to Henry's orders in the end,. Jane was devoted to KOA and Mary so she would probably have despised Anne Boleyn IMO. Great video!

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, I think the ultimate fault lies with Henry, even if I don't think Jane was a saint either (or Anne for that matter).

@ElizabethF2222

3 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryCalling Exactly! Neither Anne nor Jane were even close to saints. Lol

There’s a great opera that goes into Anne and Jane’s relationship. I think her family noticed that the king was favoring her and saw an opportunity, especially after the purse incident. I think her speech to the messenger had to do with letting Henry down gently because if she’d been outright “rude” about it then her and her family would have been in trouble. Henry was basically the ultimate predator: no one could deny him anything so anyone he propositioned had to “consent” to his attentions. Because not consenting could get you and your family out of the king’s favor, and that’s not a place you wanted to be.

I've just finished Margaret George's The Autobiography of Henry VIII. According to that writing, Henry loved Jane Seymour, grieved long and didn't want to marry again.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, I think he really did grieve for her. She may have even been the only one he was genuinely sorry to see die (I think he felt more sorry for himself about the whole Katherine Howard situation). I'm planning on doing videos looking at all the Tudor monarchs soon, so his reaction to her death should be included in Henry's videos, if you want to look out for it. Thanks for commenting.

Just discovered your channel and I'm binge watching your videos. Can you imagine being Jane and having your fate in the hands of Henry and the scheming members of your family forcing you to be a good daughter to promote the family? Jane probably had little to no choice in the matter. It would be a heady and terrifying experience to know that you were desired by the king and he would get rid of his wife for you. She may have decided to get all she could and make the most of a situation she could not control. I do wonder how different history would have been if she had lived and had more sons. We might be studying the three wives of Henry VIII and see a different royal family today. Hmmm... maybe a good topic for an alternative history novel.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Hi, thanks for watching and commenting. I'm glad you're enjoying the channel. Yes, I wouldn't have wanted to be at the mercy of Henry VIII either. Jane may have been a pawn, or just as good a schemer as her brothers of course, but we'll never know. It's one of the frustrating aspects of history. Yes, you should try to think up a novel around that alternative timeline. I'd read it!

@flanamom

3 жыл бұрын

I completely agree with your comment. Despite Jane's "meek and mild" countenance, her two very powerful, very driven-to-succeed-at - Court brothers pushed her into the marriage too, that's what I always felt. You couldn't say no to Henry, but Thomas and Edward Seymour had much to do with pushing Jane to accept the marriage to Henry. My feeling anyway.

Well if Jane did "steal" Henry it was no worse than what was done to Queen Katharine by Anne and let's face it, Queen Katharine was the "One true Wife" and their marriage lasted longer than all the others combine. Henry was a serial cheater. So in short, no I do not believe that ANYONE, stole Henry from ANYONE ELSE. God bless

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Hi Joanne, thanks for watching and commenting. Yes, I think it takes two to tango as they say and there was fault on both sides, both in the case of Henry and Anne and with Henry and Jane.

@melodyclark1944

3 жыл бұрын

If Jane stole him it is worse than what Anne did. Anne could have more children. Anne was pregnant during her husband's affair.

@sarahw5906

3 жыл бұрын

While Catherine may have been his "true wife" I think she also took on that role through deceit, when she vowed she'd never consummated her marriage to Henry's brother Arthur.

@bluenpurple2328

3 жыл бұрын

@@melodyclark1944 she brought it onto herself by making herself hated among all her subjects and servants. So I don't have much compassion for Anne.

@user-cr7ks9pj5x

3 жыл бұрын

@@bluenpurple2328 Queen Anne wasn't hated by all her subjects and servants. Just by the catholic fraction.

Once Catherine of Aragon was dead, Henry was free to say that he was never married to Anne. He could get in good graces with France. Then Henry could legitimately marry a new woman who could have a boy. That boy would be considered legitimate.

All I can re. Anne is “What goes around, comes around”

I am in the opinion, that regardless if Jane was there or not, Henry would have looked for other women. He was a known cheater.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

Oh I absolutely agree. He's already cheated on Anne. Without a son, I think her days as Queen were numbered, though if Jane hadn't been there, it's possible she would have become pregnant again and (literally) delivered.

I’ve had a look at a few different sources *six the musical and Alison weir books* and it looks like Jane like all of the other queens were thrusted into their marriage with Henry.

@HistoryCalling

3 жыл бұрын

To an extent, yes, I think you could make that argument. I think CoA was more than happy to marry him back in 1509, but even if she hadn't been, it's not like she had many other options. Likewise, no one was going to want Anne Boleyn after the damage done to her reputation by her relationship with Henry, so even if she had gone off him by 1532/3, she was committed to seeing the marriage through.

@miathomas6476

3 жыл бұрын

Catherine of Aragon had just been imprisoned after Arthur died and after Henry was able to become king she was forced into marrying Henry

@miathomas6476

3 жыл бұрын

@@HistoryCalling Catherine of Aragon had just been in prisoned because of the death of Arthur the last thing she would of wanted to do was marry Henry, yes she was a committed wife but the last thing she would want to do was marry his brother

Eh, Catherine of Aragon is my favorite Queen so I’m a bit biased but I think it’s really dumb and a bit hypocritical to call Jane a homewreaker for getting Henry’s attention. If she schemed to take down Anne she did exactly what people praise Anne for, playing her cards right and working with the hand she was dealt. Beside I can’t feel bad about Jane’s cold treatment of Anne’s death when Anne celebrated with Henry over Catherine’s death.

@edithengel2284

Ай бұрын

Both were in a sense home wreckers. But Henry was at fault: he was ready to dispose of Catherine when he became attracted to Anne, and done with Anne when he became attracted to Jane.

Thank you..