Dear Matt, please stop being brief. Please give us all the context, thank you.

@martinguerra5152

11 ай бұрын

he'll thrust you with all the context

@AB8511

11 ай бұрын

On the other hand, if he doesnt know something perhaps he could tell us sooner than in the 8th minute of video...

@jankarieben1071

11 ай бұрын

Yessss spoil us with minutiae till we’re sweaty, gasping, and begging for… more! 🫦

@Shitballs69420

11 ай бұрын

I want that intravenous context drip 😅

@SingularNinjular

11 ай бұрын

We want it all...

I think there are some details getting missed here. Loose fitting light colored clothes are cooler than naked skin - and will keep you from getting burned. Color is very important as is the kind of fabric. This is what you see most desert dwellers wear. Tight fitting clothing are NOT cooling. The surcoats were loose fitting light colored garments so they may well have been worn to help keep you cool as well as for other reasons. I've always heard it was largely for identification. From this we can see that just treating this question as garment or not is insufficient. You have to consider the kind of garment.

@ClothesCat

11 ай бұрын

Yeah, I think this video is a little bit narrow in scope. Humans are not hunks of solid material that sit calmly on a shelf enjoying simple models of thermodynamics; we move about, our skin reacts differently to heat than our internal organs, and most of all we are concerned with our own comfort. Whatever the purpose of a surcoat was beyond that of showing who you were fighting for; clearly wearing a surcoat was in some way more comfortable than wearing an alternative. Maybe a surcoat creates a little pocket of cooler air under it, or maybe it traps wind. Maybe it was just a cheaper and more easily accessible alternative to wearing something else that was superior desert-wear. I wouldn't discount comfort entirely on the principle that mail breathes, it's not like wearing nothing but mail makes you miraculously cool and also comfortable.

@narusawa74

11 ай бұрын

I agree about the identification and the white fabric helping somehow but I still wonder if the padded PJ under gets hotter or not if you wear mail on top of it. Gambesons in summer are a damn torture and end up being a sweaty sponge at the end of the day. More tests about this please Mat ?? Since you'll soon experience it live apparently.

@irrelevantfish1978

11 ай бұрын

The reason clothing can keep you cooler than bare skin is that skin is a ridiculously good absorber of radiant heat, much better than cloth. Steel, however, generally reflects heat as well or better than fabric, so covering mail with a surcoat is likely to not only _increase_ absorbed radiant heat but will also slightly reduce airflow, and therefore evaporative cooling. Yeah, if the mail is heavily oxidized and/or the cloth has particularly low emissivity then maybe it would help some, but I doubt that would've been true for most of the crusaders. Also, whether fabric color is important for how well it keeps you cool is situational, at the least. I came across a study a few years ago that found there was no significant difference between white and black Bedouin-style robes, much to the researchers' surprise. As that's the only scientific study on heat and clothing color that I've seen, I couldn't say whether that holds true for all clothing styles, fabrics, and/or dyes, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it did. It's amazing how much of what we know and experience can be proved a figment of the imagination and a product of flawed assumptions.

@user-sz1ob7ok5e

11 ай бұрын

@@ClothesCat Or maybe the purpose was to protect against sand, dust? This could somehow damage the armor or the weapon.

11 ай бұрын

@rtbinc2273 Loosely fitting clothing, be it light colored or dark colored (for longer periods of time in the sun it does not matter) provides insulation from the heat thanks to the air trapped within the clothing. You have space for a greater temperature gradient. Also, humans cool through sweating, or rather evaporative cooling of sweat. What matters is if the clothing can "breathe".

I experienced mail with and without a white and red tabard, back in the days, made out of cotton. I found out that I was cooler with that layer on. The mail was warm under the sun (summer of France) if under direct sun, with the tabard, open on the side, the mail was way cooler and helped suck the heat from my body. The difference was quite important. It is to be noted that the "tabard" was fantasy, essentially a big rectangle of cloth with a hole in the middle. The colour of the cloth matters a lot too, white is way cooler than black. I also noticed that the air could travel between the padding and the tabard thanks to the mail, adding a layer of insulation from the sun

Something a lot of people don't consider is that the sun and wind in the Middle East are death, and clothing like the kufiyeh, hijaab, and possibly even surcoats are ways you protect yourself from that weather. Levantine country (modern-day Syria, Lebanon, Israel/Palestine) is actually fairly hilly. This geography traps cooler air from the Mediterranean and results in a cooler and more humid environment compared to places such as the Sahara, lower Nile regions, and Jordan/Syrian desert. In fact, I have encountered more snow in Amman than in Charleston, despite Charleston being wetter and on a higher latitude. Jerusalem and Bethlehem also have fairly predictable, albeit sparser, snowfall. In addition, temperatures drop drastically during the night -to a point where a t-shirt and shorts that might have been perfect for the day can contribute to impending hypothermia. This applies even within the internal desert steppe.

the desert sun feels like it's 3 inches from the ground. adding layers can help insulate the heat out, since it's so much hotter than your body temperature. Simple thermodynamics. There's a reason cover all garments are common in desert areas of the world. Sure, you're sealing that 98.6ish degrees in on top of you, but it's better than the 120 degrees it is around you. This is especially effective if your top garment is a light color or white to reflect a little more of the sun.

@stephenwilhelm

11 ай бұрын

I can attest to this. I spent a year in Iraq as a civilian contractor, and the sun was incredible. In the desert, a hat is essential and long sleeves are much cooler than short sleeves. This is the opposite from the hot and humid weather we get in most of the US.

@randarkman5261

11 ай бұрын

Crusades didn't take place in Iraq though, they overwhelmingly took place in the coastal areas of modern day Syria, Israel and Lebanon, in areas that are NOT desert but basically similar to Mediterranean Europe.

@smokecrackhailsatan

11 ай бұрын

@@randarkman5261 And yet, the people who live there and the people they were fighting there still wore coverall and flowing garments.

@randarkman5261

11 ай бұрын

@@smokecrackhailsatan You are conflating Bedouin with the non-desert dwellers.

@patrickbateman3146

11 ай бұрын

​@@randarkman5261 Bedouins weren't the only ones dealing with very hot dry climates. there is a channel called "golden middle age" that talks about this.

I think you may have missed the mark on this. The mail itself may have nothing to do with it, but a loose, flowing light-coloured (most of the surcoats in the Crusades were white) surcoat *will* help to protect you from the heat of the sun, regardless of what you're wearing underneath it. That's why long, flowing white robes and similar clothing is such a common sight in desert cultures. A little experimentation should be possible to get some data points. You'd need to do it on a hot, sunny day with low humidity (flowing white clothes don't really help when the humidity is high, and the humidity in the Middle East is generally really low). Get 2 volunteers, and have them wear identical armour, including identical gambesons etc. One of them will also wear a long, loose, white surcoat. Take their temperatures while they're still indoors, and then have them both go outside and stand beside each other in the direct sun. Take their temperatures periodically, and you'll be able to see whose temperature is rising more rapidly. Then let them cool down inside, swap which one of them is wearing the surcoat, and re-do the test (this step is to account for differences in metabolism etc. between the volunteers).

@SpiderboyN2Jesus

11 ай бұрын

That's a very good idea for a test! I also love your username! Robert Jordan fans unite! I saw a similar test done with women's historical clothing vs modern women's clothing. But they didn't do the side by side comparisons, there were just multiple ladies who all wore historical garments (ranging from 1700s to 1800s) and then they all switched to modern clothing. It's fascinating how pathetic modern clothing is at heat regulation 😬... And also why I stopped wearing them, in favor of poofy linen pirate clothes 😅. Especially in Southern Louisiana and Florida 👀.

@serindas

11 ай бұрын

@@SpiderboyN2Jesus Interesting, can you provide a link for this test, I will love to see it.

@stefaniek7477

11 ай бұрын

@@serindas that sounds like something Abby Cox did: kzread.info/dash/bejne/Yqt8tsmiZZTgZqw.html

@quintoblanco8746

11 ай бұрын

This video does sound like it's made by somebody who has never experienced extreme heat and long exposure to Middle-eastern sun. At 30 degrees Celsius the body is still relatively easy to cool by sweating. And the Northern European sun doesn't heat the body up that fast.

@PJDAltamirus0425

11 ай бұрын

If that was the biggest thing though, the knights hospitalier wouldn't have wore flipping black with white crosses on there surcoats. Black is awfull for the heat and might be worse than bare mail cus mail cus mail is kinda ventilated. The robes protect mail from rain which would be problem on the long journey by foot or boat to the middle east and probably the most important thing would have been identification. Mail, being a loose structure would have been a hell to paint by hand. A cross sewn over a robe would much less labor intensive.

I live in Phoenix Arizona and nothing survives in real desert sun. Only a car without anyone in it kinda lasts. People who are forced to walk in the sun here do wear hooded jackets and hoodies, and yes they look hot but they're not muggy hot, theyre searing hot. Better to guard from the sun than be exposed to it.

@hydroaegis6658

11 ай бұрын

Why people would choose to live in the hot desert sun is beyond me...

@Kamamura2

11 ай бұрын

@@hydroaegis6658 Because they were driven from more habitable lands by enemies? Because caravans can transport lucrative goods across the desert from distant lands? Because they seek solitude and spiritual enlightenment?

@ssl3546

11 ай бұрын

@@Kamamura2 pretty sure none of those things applies to Phoenix. People move to Phoenix for low taxes, golf (!!), warm weather and just enough entertainment to keep geezers occupied.

@nathanexplosion743

11 ай бұрын

Matt should leave his chainmail in the Sonoran sun and see how it feels on his skin

@AlarionSchmidt-xc2ro

11 ай бұрын

​@@hydroaegis6658 exactly! The reason why my wife and daughters go on beach vacation without me!

surcoats with symbols can also help them identify each other as allies and prevent being mistaken as an enemy

@Kamamura2

11 ай бұрын

Yes, because Saracens riding camels are easily mistaken for the European crusading knights.

@samneis128

11 ай бұрын

I agree that it has more to do with appearance than heat or protection. Maybe not to avoid confusion with enemies, but certainly as kind of a uniform. The Crusades brought together people from all over Europe, many of whom had recently been fighting each other, and all of whom had traditions of fighting as parts of feudal armies under the banners of their local lords and those of their own lords' liege, and nobody had standardized gear. One of the goals of the Church when starting the Crusades was to distract the European nobility from fighting each other. So how do you get them to all feel like part of the same army? Give them all big baggy white uniforms that will easily fit over whatever armor they brought with them/bought from the Italians/looted from the Byzantines along the way. Plus, the uniformity makes them much more imposing to the enemy.

@PJDAltamirus0425

11 ай бұрын

Probably saved a few lives.. you aren't just some heavily armored man, you are member of a holy order that the person that captured you can extort money from.

@KristinkaAranova

11 ай бұрын

@@Kamamura2crusades didn’t only take place in the Middle East

@randarkman5261

11 ай бұрын

​@@samneis128 I don't think crusader armies were any more or less uniform than other Western European armies at the time. Besides the bulk of the military manpower of the crusades was always drawn from what is today modern France for the most part. And surcoats used by Crusaders definitely weren't all white. Templars wore white, but their sergeants wore black and the Hospitalers were black (and later red), and all kinds of colors were probably used by secular kngihts. Then again there is the fact that contrary to what @Kamamura implies the "Saracens" did not really ride camels in battle, in fact at the time the militaries of the levant were dominated by Turks, who fought on horseback. To the extent "Arabs" feature they would mostly be from agricultural or urban communities, not bedouin (who were not numerous) they seem to have fought in a manner and with equipment very similar to what you would find among Byzantines as far as can be told, and they too would be riding horses if they were mounted.

It's good to keep in mind there are different sources of heat - body heat (why we feel hot when moving a lot), passive air temperature (what thermometer measures) and heat from the sun. So we need to remember that on hot day, air temperature can be 30-35 C, metal left out on full sun can get much hotter, up to 40-50's C. Enough to fry an egg on a car's hood, for example. So while the clothing and padding can prevent you from radiating the body and air heat, loose cloth external covering, especially white or brightly colored, won't do that and instead will help keep you protected from the sun heating you up from outside. Its the reason why all the desert people wear loose, long robes and light cloth head covering such as turban or tagelmust.

This video definetaly gives a vibe that you've never been in a desert. Its a different kind of heat, its a dry, scorching heat. The cloth they wpre ABSOLUTELY keeps the sun off of them. Go wear a chainmail kit in the desert for days on end and see if you make it 3 days.

I get the arguments, but I still think some experiments a la Tod's Workshop would be interesting, like puting a thermometer or something inside different layers of armor and leaving them in the sun. A lot of times "commom sense" is contradicted by experiment results.

@brettevill9055

11 ай бұрын

Yes, very much. But to be really informative the experiment ought to be done somewhere where the sunlight is a lot more direct and hotter than in Britain. It’s not just a matter of the air temperature but also of direct sunshine. For all that it does radiate heat, metal out in the sun at low latitudes, on clear days without much wind, can very literally get hot enough to cook an egg.

Whether you go to Egypt or Palestine or any other country in the region from Morocco to Pakistan you're going to see people wearing full-length loose-fitting clothing. This is necessary because the full length protects you from the intense solar radiation, the loose fit keeps you cool, and the barrier keeps the dust away. Light color helps but isn't necessary as the millions of women who wear black niqabs and chadors can attest. Armor is fitted and without the airflow is rather unpleasant to wear. Even though it's an extra layer the surcoats would have helped with temperature.

@randarkman5261

11 ай бұрын

But then why did Middle Eastern soldiers not wear surcoats over their armor (and they wore armor), why were surcoats also adopted at the same time by armies in Northern Europe? Why didn't Spanish (much of Spain having a climate that's pretty similar to the Levant, which is not all desert) knights adopt surcoats before other Europeans did? Day-to-day civilian clothing and military clothing and armor have different priorities and functions. The assumption that surcoats were some necessary climate adaptation I think does not hold alot of water when you consider it outside of the very narrow context of we know Crusaders wore surcoats (as did other European soldiers).

I've worn maille for... 6-8 hours in the sun. I can attest, while it CAN get reasonably warm to the touch, it's holey-ness and big surface helps very well to vent that heat. But also, desert and sun can be a different situation.

@mnk9073

11 ай бұрын

Desert means not just heat but also dust and mail is usualy well oiled, could it also serve to keep that off the mail?

@bl4cksp1d3r

11 ай бұрын

@@mnk9073 good question. In my experience you don't NEED to oil maille when you wear it, the whole movement of every link keeps it clean enough.

It would be very interesting to see a comparison of the heat felt in blackened and brightly polished armour.

@brettevill9055

11 ай бұрын

Ideally, in real hot weather in the mid-thirties Celsius, with direct sun.

I wore a surcoat, grand helm, and gambison at the medieval fair. In was like low 90s and I believe I was pretty close to a heat stroke.

@SlothinAintEasy

11 ай бұрын

Some guy in a three musketeers outfit kept challenging me to a fight and I was like, “come on bro…”

@osborne9255

11 ай бұрын

Same here. The clouds parted and the temperature shot up to 110 ; I didn't see the signs but people started pouring water over me and stripping my plate off; thankfully they did, because I'd had a number of obvious signs (that I didn't know about being from rainy Wales). Heat is terrifying.

@SlothinAintEasy

11 ай бұрын

@@osborne9255 bruh that’s rough. There should really be water stations at those places.

I never wore armor, so my opinion is not the most valuable. But reading the comments and applying my basic understanding of how clothes work, I think the temperature argument is very valid. A surcoat wasn't like a jacket, usually dark-colored, pressing the inner layers towards your body, meant for cold weather, KEEPING BODY HEAT IN. A thick, loose, usually light-colored layer of cloth covering your metal armor, that would disperse the heat from the sun. Even if there's holes, wouldn't the individual rings start heating up under the hot sun ? And also, I never see someone walking in the middle of the desert dressed like they're going to the beach.

Im a larper from south louisiana and for like 5 years I wore a full sleeve knee length chainmail hauberk in 100+ degree (38ish C for you euros) 100% humidity weather with minimal padding and surcoat on top to my game's monthly weekend events. I find the armor itself actually keeps you relatively cool and draws the heat out of your body. Clothing is definitely the real problem and surcoats absolutely make you and the armor hotter.

@marz6770

11 ай бұрын

100% humidity ? Is that a thing? I believe that would mean you don't have any mean of cooling down since the air is hotter than your body and sweat could not evaporate to cool you down. Or maybe 100% humidity means something else ?

@lordsheogorath3377

11 ай бұрын

@@marz6770 it means the air is fully saturated and cannot take any more water vapor. Very common on the Gulf Coast and yes it means that sweat doesn't really evaporate so it's cooling effect is limited.

@malahamavet

11 ай бұрын

but was it a nice cloth like cotton or linen or polyester? because that last one gets hotter

@SaintCarnifex

11 ай бұрын

@@malahamavet Most of my larping stuff is cotton.

@GeneralNatGreene

11 ай бұрын

This is a function of a high humidity enviroment though preventing all of the airflow benefits that dry air provides for evaporation and cooling in a desert enviroment

Nights can still get chilly, it protects from weather, and also I like your arrow protection theory, it would be like those japanese silk balloons/boxes some samurai cavalry used. Also white or black surfaces can cause micro air currents by causing minor temperature differences, so that can keep you cooler and dryer under the cloak maybe, keeping in mind types of clothing that has been used in Middle-East historically.

7:50 i think it's rather simple, due to the fact of sand in the wind or sandstorms and the like. it makes it easier to clean onself from sand etc.

I would love to see some experiments comparing polished vs blackened in heat.

Short form content doesn't usually work for your topics. I think a lot of us would prefer to see more explanation and context. I love the video, I would love to see more.

I'll chime in on some other comments with my personal experience. I'm attending the Medieval Week in Visby (in Sweden) each year for some time now, and been in full linen-under-wool. With a thick cloak over it all. In 2018 which was a particularly hot year here with 30C or more I learned that I was actually getting warmer without the cloak. Basically I've come to realize that, while ensuring it hangs open and the sun is on my back, it's "portable shade". As an added benefit, when night comes and temperatures drop, it's a portable, insulated tent draped over me. Not sure if that pertains the crusaders situation or not, but worth mentioning. Anyhow, my short answer is that big, draped pieces of cloth that the wind can still blow through is cooler than not having them. And also, looks cool. ;)

The surcoat is just useful overall. It's well known that white is worn in those areas for people to keep cool because it reflects light. They still wear a lot of long white or light colored clothes there today. If there is a wind or sand storm the hood will protect the head and face and help prevent sand from getting places where where you don't want it. If you're traveling the Holy Land and have to make camp at night, the surcoat will also help keep you warm. possibly be used to make a shelter. It's like the medieval version of the woobie.

I've never worn mail or plate, but I do live in the desert and shoot firearms. We have an issue with metal becoming too hot to touch without burning your hand just from the sunlight. Is it possible that a thin layer of cloth might have been worn to prevent the metal from absorbing the heat and burning exposed skin? If they commonly wore gauntlets however, there isn't a lot of bare skin that would come into contact with scorching metal.

I think it's more likely to be for recognition on the field. Your troops could be wearing all manner of armour, and difficult to distinguish from the foe. Sling a surcoat over the top with your "unit markings" on, and it's easy to tell who is who.

@Kamamura2

11 ай бұрын

Yes, especially if the enemies are Saracens, armed with scimitars, riding camels.

@johanmeesters4630

11 ай бұрын

Heraldy is important to knights. You show your colours.

I generally believe that they wore their surcoats as idenfication and probably some religious reasons since all of them, not just the Templars were highly religious. In terms of the aforementioned Templars the knights wore white, and if it was snow white in color then it would (still does) repell heat. I once wore a "reverse" suit when the trousers, jacket, vest, shoes and tie were all white but a black shirt on. The temp that day was 100°F easy but I wasn't any more uncomfortable than had I not been wearing a 3 piece suit.

In my experience i get way hotter under my breastplate when i am not wearing my surcoat. My surcoat is very tightly tailored to the armour so there's not much space for hot air to get trapped and the colour may do something as well i suppose. All the other naked plate bits gets hot though but the torso is not a problem in my harness. (1370s).

Albedo is a surprisingly potent factor in heat retention. Just covering a dark surface with a light surface makes for highly observable results. I use this in gardening and hydroponics and it can be the difference between what lives and what dies.

To make it possible to identify friend from foe in a melee

I've always felt that the impact of local average temperature and humidity on the shape of armor and gear is often overlooked, and I'm happy to hear this.

In addition to the heat-reflective qualities of a light, loose-fit, white garment (regardless of what layers are underneath), I imagine it would also prevent blowing sand and dust from roughing up/clotting the mail rings during a long campaign. Barrels of fine sand were used to polish mail, but rougher grit sand could cause problems over time, and finer matter could accumulate and require excessive cleanings to keep the mail from binding on itself and accumulating rust. Just a wild speculation.

In my experience surcoats do keep your mail a bit cooler. But even then your arms aren't covered as Shadiversity said. As far as I know, Templars were of the first to wear them. And according to the templar rules, the habit was important. And also it differentiated the knights from the sergeants. We also know that early habits didn't have sleeves. So my theory is that the first surcoats were wool monk habits worn over their armor, so they were recognised. And as you can imagine, knights liked that people could see and recognise them, so they made them flashing, in expensive fabrics (like silk), in colours people linked with them, and eventually heraldry comes along.

I think you might be missing something here. I would much prefer to wear lots of loose fitting clothes in that environment. As others have mentioned just look at the difference in clothing people wear in the desert vs jungle. And that goes double to cover up a heat conductor on my back. Ive touched metal thst gets hot enough to fry an egg just from being out in the sun. Now imagine strapping that to your back.

After having encountered undifferentiated utterances regarding arms and armour for some time now, I hardly can describe, how pleasant I find, how precise & thoughtful you manage to talk about that stuff here, whilst naming general tendencies without negating outliers &/ special cases etc. Precise & uncontroversial, but brief.

Love your videos. Very interesting!

I think it's hard to ignore the cultural context here. They're in the desert, surrounded by Arabs and Turks who absolutely did and still do wear long loose outer garments to protect themselves from the sun and heat. Whether or not the mail specifically was a heat factor I think is actually kind of irrelevant. Even if it does breathe really well, you're still going to want the sun protection.

@malahamavet

11 ай бұрын

exactly! I'm happy someone else sees what I see. Also some crusaders even had the same garment modern Arabs use but on their helmets. Sure, Matt said helmets are hot, so even more reasons to cover it whith a cloth. White is great against the sun

@randarkman5261

11 ай бұрын

This is an oversimplification that doesn't really match the kind of military equipment of those Arabs and Turks. Except when you get into the desert proper (and you mostly stay away from there) the climate in the Levant is basically the same as Mediterranean Europe. The Turks at the time of the first Crusade do NOT come from a desert background, in fact they are fairly recent arrivals from the steppes, and are noted for fur-lined hats, trousers and long-sleeved double-breasted tunics and their military equipment in terms of armor consists of metal helmets, chainmail shirts and lamellar corsets (metal or leather, both seem to appear if I remember right) as well as sometimes simple plate defenses for limbs. The "Arabs" in question are mostly not bedouin but the inhabitants of Syria and Palestine, who at the time were mostly not as well-represented militarily as the members of the Turkish tribal and slave military aristocracy, they however mostly seem to have fought in equipment fairly reminiscent of southern Europeans or the Byzantines, using lances and straight swords and wearing mail armor (with influences in armor and weaponry coming in from contact with the Turks and Iranian world as well).

@Blowfeld20k

11 ай бұрын

@@randarkman5261 Thank you brother, at last someone who didn't get his information about the crusades from Louder with Crowder. Much appreciated good sir.

Love it! You convinced me in the first minute but I enjoyed staying along for the ride as you just kept going to utterly debunk the myth xD

A video talking about various armour heating in the sun would be informative and well received.

Being recognizable from a distance where its clear which side you're on or whatever other information you need to convey was probably one reason they were worn.

I can confirm brigandines are hard to wear in the summer. I wear a black leather pretty often, and it makes it toasty. I also wear a surcoat and wrap light cape around myself, and I can confirm they help with the heat.

Having 28 years of LARP experience, I can definitely say that in the sun, I much prefer to have a cape or surcoat to shield my armor from direct sunlight, it makes the ordeal much more bearable. I don't think we need to dig further than that for a satisfying explanation.

When i was deployed to the middle east i took a mail hauberk with me to wear while running. I can guarantee that in the 120 degree desert sun mail does indeed get hot enough to burn the skin. I also run wearing mail regularly in the southeast and midwest usa where in summer it is 90-100 deg outside and the mail also heats up significantly im those conditions as well. A surcoat does help to reduce sun exposure keeping the metal cooler, but the garment traps heat and keeps it close to your body. Generally surcoat doesnt help with comfort

Thanks for the video ⚔️

I'd never heard this story until a few days ago (can't remember where I heard it) and now Matt comes along to debunk it. You're doing a great job. Keep up the good work.

Perhaps for heraldry. You could be identified by your surcoat as a hospitaller, a Templar, Order of St James or even a sign of your family crest.

I think I have to join the 'you missed the mark' gang on this one, Matt - perhaps not the main point, about maille and surcoats, but certainly the rest. I study the Portuguese in Morocco during the 15th century, and there is some evidence to suggest that fabric helped a lot - think brigandines instead of bare plate -, as did having loose layers instead of very tight layers - think maille collars over brigs or cuirasses, instead of under them. Sometimes they even added another layer, in the form of a 'capelhar' - a Moorish hood + short cloak combo thingy - over their entire ensemble. This is the problem with anecdotal evidence VS (admittedly) limited historical sources. More testing is definitely required.

just a few observations regarding the recent video on surcoats and their purpose. I have spent several decades wearing various armours in subtropical Australia in re enactments and as a museum educator. While engaged in school holiday programs at one museum I was often wearing a mail hauberk or shorter mail shirt (depending on the historical theme) outdoors in the sun five days a week for three weeks at a time in Queensland summer. Temperatures were rarely below 33 C and often as high as 38C. Mail shirts really do heat up in direct sunlight in those conditions, especially flatter cross section links and even after I had stepped inside the museum people would comment on the amount of heat radiating off of the mail. I found that a mail hauberk with surcoat was actually more comfortable than a shorter exposed mail shirt under strong direct sunlight. Helmets and plate harness as you pointed out are much worse, I believe Shakespeare used the term “Scalds with safety” in Henry IV. Often my helmet during these activities would be so hot that it was physically painful to touch after half an hour in the sun. As I was being used as an archery target by the visitors helmets off was not an option! Torse and mantle did seem to make a difference and turban wrapping on a khula khud or similar did provide shading for the eyes but didn’t seem to make any real difference to the metal heating up. Over many years of tournaments we reflective surface on the harness did make a difference, high polish harness was definitely more comfortable in strong sunlight and the duller the surface the quicker it appeared to heat up. As we are in an area of high temperatures coupled with high humidity harness would start to dull within a day of being worn and rust with in 48 hours! Bench mounted polishing wheels are not uncommon in late medieval re-enactors workshops here! In plate harness if the heat was mostly trapped body heat from exercise what you were wearing over it seemed to make little difference. I suspect some of the reason that surcoats became popular in Western and central Europe was fashion: it gives instant veteran crusader swag and can be used as a means of conspicuous display. I would be intrigued to see if they have any effect on arrows, quite possibly on barbed or broad-headed arrows and I look forward to seeing some tests. Just my observations

I can totally vouche for maillie armor is a lot cooler. According to the channel Golden Middle Age which specialized in Medieval Arab History they would just wear 2 linen shirts under their maille. I know in my larping I'll forgo the padding underneath and just wear a plain t-shirt under my maille if its really hot. But I'm getting hit with foam weapon and it only lowers my armor points by a little bit so sometimes the trade off is worth it.

@eagle162

11 ай бұрын

Does he talk about how they protect themselves from arrows? Particularly from Turks.

@GallowglassAxe

11 ай бұрын

@@eagle162 Not specifically. The armor he shows is two linen shirt, then a maille shirt, and then a lamellar vest of either leather or steel.

As a Spanish guy who has wear mail armour in different ways in the hot Spanish summer (last year, one day we were fighting in mail armour at 47°C, for example) through the last 12 years, here is my experience: 1. A lot of difference between wearing mail over a padded garment (even a very light one) and wearing nothing but the tunic. And the difference is: only with the tunic, your skin can be burned with a beautiful ring pattern, specially over your back and shoulders. With a padded garment, your skin is safe, and you feel considerably less hot, specially when your gambeson gets wet by your transpiration (sorry, I can't remember the correct English word) and it refresh you. Maybe not too hygienic, but it works. 2. Wearing a surcoat over the mail and the padded garment underneath, I haven't noticed any difference. 3. Wearing a surcoat over the mail without any padded garment underneath, I have noticed a little difference. 4. The same results apply for helmets.

Matt spends 9 minutes to arrive at "I don't know". Please keep on doing what you're doing. Listening to Matt discussing stuff is quite interesting. Thx

"Helmets make you hot." Indeed, everyone looks good in a hat.

Matt: "I'm going to try to keep this brief" Me: Clears schedule for next hour because I've heard this before lol

I found my mail to be great in the cold and heat. I suspect a very big reason for surcoats was also simply identification, you are in a area with armies from all over being mixed together who all if they could afford it, used mail. It would make sense to be able to tell each other apart. Plus the Jupon experiments proved the extra fabric can make a big difference with arrows as you said.

I think we also need to remember that the crusaders tended to wear very large cloaks as well, to the point where between the cloak and surcoat you might not even see the mail, save perhaps on the hands and feet when moving. Granted, they probably removed the cloak before combat (if possible), but why the heck would you wear a cloak if it didn't provide some manner of benefit? The explanation that always seemed best to me is that the purpose of such garments was to keep the sun off of the mail. Whether it has holes or not, metal left out in the sun will get very very hot. I suspect that if you left some mail in the summer sun of Arizona for a couple of hours it would be too hot enough to cause serious burns. "Hot enough to fry an egg on the sidewalk" is something of an idiom in America. Though there is often a degree of hyperbole in its usage, you can absolutely find videos of people doing just this. As others have said, the cloaks and surcoats etc. that the crusaders are depicted wearing are very reminiscent of the clothing worn in that part of the world.

Testing how hot armour heats up would be interesting. You could test the interior between the skin and armour with a thermometer, but also the exterior with a laser thermometer. I wonder if knights had different arming doublets for different weather.

is nice to see him cover more than just the weapons themselves

I'd love to see a video on the surcoat itself! I had always wondered about the theory that surcoats came about as a response to the heat--another theory I've heard/read was that they borrowed from the clothing style of the land in which they were fighting but I don't know how much that holds up either, which is why i'd love to see your video on the subject!

Although from later years, there are some dress rules from guilds that require it's members to not leave the house without the surcoat. It was part of being fully and respectfully clothed. So there might be an element of that in the crusaders coats, achieving uniformity, showing ones colors etc And on the the topic of wool: there are dozens of differed fabrics made from wool. Some are really light, breathable and fit for summer. I bet the crusaders coats where almost see thru, so light was the material.

I think surcoats were used to identify individuals and thair followers on the battle field. Colors and standards that could be easily recognized by troops. Great topic Matt thanks for bringing it to us thanks thanks for bringing it

There is always an appetite for historical experiments!

I absolutely think you should experiment with blackened armor vs polished armor in heat. I think that could be valuable info. You could also test mail and other types of armor too!

@toddellner5283

11 ай бұрын

Ever drive a black car in the desert? How about a white or silver one? Have done both. There's a reason the black ones don't sell where it gets hot

"Maile is the coolest armor." Valid. No notes.

I wonder what might be added to full plate armor for cooling. Maybe a special fabric that wicks sweat better and sticks out to lead it outside, or some metallic layer that would touch the body directly and conduct heat to the outer plates(well, hopefully to rather than from), or even bladders that transform body movement into air pumping.

As an owner of a Brigandine and one looking at going on a large medieval event in August, you have my full sympathies .

Conquistadors kept an extensive use of mail throughout the 16th century (most used type of armor alongside native-american cotton armor). My bet is because of what Matt explains here.

I would have thought wearing distinctive surcoats was a must in many situations to prevent a 'blue-on-blue' and for unit cohesion. After all many times a combatant was wearing a helmet with restricted vision in a mass melee in a dust choked environment. It would be easy to take a swing at a 'friendly' or lose touch with your comrades in the chaos. I also presume that clashes between european military factions in the near east was common and the combatants would be dressed and armed in similar manner creating confusion in close combat situations.

Possibly relevant data point: When I took an introductory welding class, one of the welding setups covered gave of so much heat the back of my left gauntlet (leather, dark blue) got uncomfortably HOT. I fixed the problem with a layer of tin can as a radiant heat shield over the problem area.

It is a known thing that black painted metal will absorb heat faster than any other color, BUT it also radiates/sheds heat faster than any other color; white painted metal on the other hand will heat up slower but retain that heat longer. This is why the SR-71 Blackbird was painted black. As for the surcoat, it's my opinion that it was for identification more than anything else; an individual had their coat of arms displayed across the front, unless the individual belonged to one of the militant orders (Templars, Teutonic Knights....) then they had the symbol of their order displayed prominently. To the notion that it had some cooling effect because it was white and loose fitting, you have to consider that it was being worn OVER a thick, close fitting arming doublet, which is like wearing a thick jacket. Just try going outside in the summer wearing a coat with a bedsheet draped over it and see how much cooler you are.

In campaigns, they usually needed to sleep where they will stop usually under the clear sky or in improvised shelters... surcoats can be useful to not get chilled during the night. / portable blanket

"Solar absorptance" of a material is the key factor. The reason space suits are white rather than reflective metal is so that they can radiate more of their heat and absorb less from the sun. You can find datasheets about this from various research papers but, the amount of insulation you add with a thin layer of white fabric can very well be worth the amount of heat you don't absorb / radiate out. There's a huge difference between getting hot because the *air* is hot, and getting hot because the *sun* is warming you up directly. Secondarily, you actually want to insulate yourself more above 35C° ambient temperature: Wind blowing on you will actually heat you up rather than cool you down, and insulation from that is extremely important.

Your point about mail being the armor de rigeour of other desert filled and hot enviroments like North Africa and India really makes your case. You also make a really interesting point about archery defense, which I am sure impacted wearing of surcoats regardless of their temperature impacts However, the question I would ask is how did surcoats fit and how thick were they? The problem with all the cloth layers and padding under mail you have described is that they are close to the skin. As you know from studying this, most peoples living in desert environments wear loose fiting robe and cloak like outer garments. Your comment about mail not being an insulator is a point against your contention, since we are talking about continuous direct sun radiation. Think a hot car, and then compare that to the heat of a house before air conditioning in India. The latter is stifling, the former will cook food. Fabric being an insulator is actually a positive to protect from direct sun, if you are not in direct contact with it. The problem with metal being a good conductor of heat is that with a tight fitting insulation layer of cloth padding underneath, it is going to be conducting the suns heat to the undelayers, not moving body heat from the undelayers to the air. I can definitely see a loose fiting, insulating outer garment providing a moving air flow over the mail and shielding it from direct sun heat. This would make the mails mesh and conducting features help pull heat away from the body, especially when combined like you said with lesser padding during the Crusades. This question does beg another question though, given all that, why on earth did any Crusaders wear anything other than an open face helmet?

I would definitely be interested in seeing the difference between blackened and polished armor, or even painted. Would love to see a lineup of various chest coverings (to include mail, brigandines, etc.) and layers on a sunny day with thermometers inside them, or something of the like.

Mail armor includes the gambeson, padding, layer as well. Just looking at the metal missed the system approach. In medieval re-enactment in the summer I would pour/spray/splash water on an outer cloth layer and down the neck to give cooling. other commenters pointing out the flowing cloth, loose surcoat, catches the sun then lets the wind blow on both sides >is< cooler than any flat layer like mail or its padding.

Very good explanation. And it is true. My speciality is the 12th century (Comthurey Alpinum). The 12th century knights wore most likely only a chemise and a woolen tunic under the maille, there is not a lot of evidence for "gambesons" (and they are not necessary because we are in the time of big shields and one handed weapons). This combination works perfectly. And the answer is physics. Sweat (water) combined with linen and wool cools itself down due to the evaporative heat loss. And if there is maille on top of it, the heat gets transported away from the body, through the maille (yes, its full of holes). I was walking around in chainmail in 30 degrees in summer a lot and i never had a problem. Only thing you have to remember is to drink enough water, because the cooling only works if you sweat.

matt talks about hot weather of 30c stares at temps of 105f (40.6c)

The archery idea would mesh nicely with Roman Kataphraktoi wearing fabric on the outside of the lamellar lorikion, and being said to be nearly invulnerable to missiles. Very nice idea

This video makes me to start a fashion trend of wearing a chain mail shirt during the summer.

About blackened vs polished metal- the surface of a piece of metal absorbs *and radiates* heat with equal efficiency. Hence blackened metal will heat up in the sun a bit quicker but will radiate it that same bit quicker.

I am interested in blackened vs oiled chainmail, I recently got a shirt of flat riveted blackened chainmail and it is pretty nice

I think there is more context to the question than Matt addressed, specifically regarding the moisture content of the air, the contribution of direct sunlight to heating objects, and how they radiate that heat. A hot day in Arizona is not the same as a hot day in Florida. Likewise a hot day in England is not the same as a hot day in the land between Syria and Saudi Arabia. Generally speaking, you would be cooler wearing less clothing on a hot and humid day because your sweat won't evaporate as readily. On a hot and dry day with minimal cloud cover, you would be cooler wearing something to cover most of your exposed skin, preferably with poor heat transmissivity to minimize the effects of sunlight. Metal radiates heat, but it radiates it more efficiently towards a cooler object. In bright sunlight, metal will tend to radiate heat away from the sun and towards you if you're wearing it. Therefore a loose woolen tabard may be an effective method for keeping cooler in a hot/dry/sunny climate than exposed chainmail alone. It may not be as effective and perhaps even detrimental in a hot/moist/partly cloudy climate.

7:49 Makes sense...could be to offer better protection against arrows but I dont really know either. Good video! thank you!

I guess that the surcoats were an adaption of the Arab and Berber Bournous or Djellaba... as protection against cool temperature during night time, against the sandy dessert wind, and so on... and, btw, Lebanon and the Holy Land can be pretty cold (when I travelled to Jerusalem roughly 20 years ago around Easter time, we had a tiny bit of snow).

Great video. Doesn’t surprise me helmets get very hot since a lot of heat tries to escape from the head.

Id love to see some experiments about heat in different variations and styles of armor! Id love to see a teamup with todds workshop testing that

I imagine the Landsknechte in Germany put fabric on their plates to keep warm in cold weather. So it kind of only has semi to do with the heat, in keeping it. And its also useful for decorations and symbols.

Drop in to see me Matt, always water, salt and sugars on the stall for hot Reenactors. I really miss the fight at Tewksbury, the Center scrap was always the hardest and most fun. I used to fight as Man at Arms and have done so in both full harness and Brigandine, I personally preferred wearing my Brigandine as I wore only light padding with it so was cooler, offered better movement and absorbed blows far better than full Harness with thicker padding. Be safe, Stay Hydrated

I think that the fabric hanging very loosely on the body, folded, can cause the loss of some of the kinetic energy of the arrow from the bow. Many times I have seen shooting with traditional wooden bows... arrows flying from a distance of several dozen meters pierced deep into the targets, but the hanging curtains were not pierced. With some experience, you could probably determine the right ratio of the lightness of the material, its folds, so that it would give some additional protection and not be too heavy.

I definitely want to see experimentation on the difference in heat between various armour materials and colors.

as a mail enjoyer myself (eastern style re-enactment) I wear mail as my primary form of protection with some woolen/linen tunics underneath... very little padding and i find once ive sweated through the tunics i become lovely and cool in the heat :) It isnt bad in winter either :)

I am going to risk guessing that surcoats were a type of _branding._ We know the great Houses of Europe had their heraldry, but the military orders also had their unique badge and colour scheme. It wasn't so much that the surcoat was used to tell friend from foe, but it gave your brand bragging rights against other brands who fought on the same side, but were all chomping at the bit for more glory.

Greetings: I've been living and farming in the northern half of Israel for over 5 years and every Summer I think of this. The clear coloured surcoat might have help with the straight sunrays while marching, since my experience on the field, the worst is the Sun in this areas, which is really strong, even in Autumn

Possibly the fragmented nature of militia's and command was the reason for the extent of surcoat use, as visual Identification is a key aspect of communication on the battlefield, what with the noise and distances involved.

We are hitting 101°F/38°C here today in Texas. So yes please let's explore every bit of heat management ideas that we can. Would it be possible to place some thermometers up under chest armors and measure after 1 to 3 hours? Ideas for consideration for comparison: Color of plate Color of mail Color of surcoat Color of arming garments Plate vs. brig Loose vs. tight arming garments Breathability of arming garment fabrics Did men-at-arms ever use sheer/lacy/meshy arming garments for cooling, instead of solid sheets of tightly woven linen? How few layers of fabric were they known to reduce arming garments to in hotter weather/ climates? How about sewing some pockets for cooling chem packs into your arming garments? Possible sites: crown, nape, pits, small of back, groin, back of knees. Not historical, but if it helps stave off heat exhaustion/stroke then it would be worth taking that ding.

I think one posibility for surcoats might be that they saw themself as monastic order and how they are knights they want to show of their coat of arms so they combinted what priests and monks wore with knights showing off from what house they belond to.

one interesting thing to consider is that many groups native to hot climates, particularly north Africa (such as the berbers, I know that's not the name they prefer but I can't remember their actual name oops) would actually go the opposite direction to many of us, and would wear lots of layers, including some quite thick ones; the reason being that the layers of fabric stopped the sunlight getting in as it insulated very well, protected the skin, and the sweat would stay against the skin being in contact with the base layer of clothing, thus keeping them cool. if you wear light fabrics and things designed to move sweat away from your skin, your body makes more sweat to replace it and regulate temperature, but if it stays against your skin, you stay cooler and dehydrate slower. I'm not saying that the crusaders saw this logic and adopted it, but it wouldn't surprise me that being in the middle East, and being exposed to lots of knee & ankle length robes worn by locals, they may have seen it as a good idea both stylistically and pragmatically

Wouldn't the surcoats serve a number of different reasons? 1. they are decent protection from the elements. With sand being able to be picked up by winds and the dry earth being dusted by marching, I imagine having a wind-breaker of sort would simply be useful in it's own right and lower the amount of maintenance you need to do on your equipment. 2. Portable shade. The coats are perfect for setting up temporary shade shelters that can be quickly constructed and deconstructed on the go without much set-up. 3. Archer protection. But I think it may be in a bit off a different way. Assuming the coats are of uniform colour (preferably white), they should catch the glare of the sun quite well and make singular sniping more difficult due to effects coming together to create visual distortion/a more homogeneous mass rather than individuals. Even if subconsciously. I'm just spitballing random thoughts here.

It may be less about the maille getting hot, but the wearer himself. Insulation works both ways, so if there’s an extreme difference between your body temperature and the temperature outside, it will keep you cooler for longer.

I for one would love to see some tests on how hot blackened armor is vs mirror polished (and maybe other styles)

As someone who wore a uniform in the middle of summer during the day in the middle of the desert - honestly, your body adjusts. I used to jog from work in uniform with my M4 and my plate carrier with side plates on in June - it was easily around 100 degrees outside. I ran two miles around the PT track (in shorts and T-shirt) at 11 AM in the morning in June in what was easily above 110 degrees fahrenheit (it peaked above 120 in the summer afternoon). Now I walk outside from my air conditioned room and it's 100 degrees outside and I think "GOD it's hot." One thing you don't adjust to is the god awful wind. A mild breeze will send sand pelting you in the face from AROUND your sunglasses. I used to come back from a run and sneeze uncontrollably. Someone has to do roofing and road construction in the South in July. Somehow, somehow, they survive. Go figure. You're a warm blooded mammal with sweat glands. You can do it too. Just drink water and if you feel sick or lightheaded, go indoors.

Maille has a surface area that is massively bigger than plate, with all those rings. With air circulating through it, just a light breeze should keep it relatively cool. Plate, otoh, well, anyone who has touched a car parked in the sun knows how hot that can become, and the Brigandine has any openings between the smaller plates closed by the fabric, so there is next to no air circulation. Maybe do an experiment on this? Three mannequin torsi, with undershirt and doublet, then dress in plate/Brigandine/Maille. Put a electric thermometer sensor under the undershirt of each, place in the sun. Pretty sure which one will not be cooking… This way, you also may be able to test the mentioned wide-clothing-is-cooler thing. With a wide and light surcoat over the mannequin.