"Fun trumps realism, but be consistent" is something I feel a lot of games could benefit from.

@suntzu6122

Ай бұрын

People need to just chill with the realism concerns 😂

I burned hundreds of my childhood hours replaying Fallout over and over. And now, well into my own gamedev journey, I have the privilege of listening to the wisdom of one of the minds behind it. What a treat! I'm extremely thankful for your daily videos, they're priceless.

@llamasarus1

9 ай бұрын

No, you invested hundreds of hours!

I feel like the pillar of "interface" on Fallout might have helped more than realized. As a certified Zillenial™, I really can assure people that the original Fallout's hands-on playability has aged much better than many other top games of those years.

Lost opportunity to make a "Design Pillars of Eternity" pun

@jaws8621

Жыл бұрын

Not making terrible puns isn't a lost opportunity.

@Palendrome

Жыл бұрын

Important to remember Tim actually has a good sense of humor rather than cringe

@SuperKratosgamer

Жыл бұрын

@@jaws8621 it is.

@astralandreid

10 ай бұрын

Dude, I thought exactly the same 😂

Wow, I feel so vindicated for having nailed down 4 design pillars for my passion project game before even beginning with any prototype or setting research!

I think it's fascinating that UI/UX ended up being a pillar of Fallout's design, and speaking for myself, I think it worked smoothly and intuitively. If I managed to figure it out without issue as a kid, I'd say that's pretty successful.

@mikeyreza

Жыл бұрын

Yea honestly Fallout actually was pretty intuitive to me for a 26 year old game. Only thing I had to google was how to sleep.

@GypsumGeneration

Жыл бұрын

I really struggled with the local/world maps in Arcanum as a kid, I think it was the first time I had to look at a manual for help lol

@mikeyreza

Жыл бұрын

@@GypsumGeneration Omg the map in arcanum took me like an hour to figure out when I got to the first town. And I'm not even a little kid. I was mostly confused because I didn't realize that A. You have to leave the town to use your map B. The bridge out of town was being guarded I think I wasted like 2 hours in the first town just dicking around until I realized I could just steal from Rizzmus or whatever the importer guy's name was and get the gold to leave town

@Ezio999Auditore

2 ай бұрын

Ngl hated the UI at 32 years old, very cumbersome. I think it aged poorly.

Just wanted to say I really appreciate your insight and enthusiasm into the topics you cover. When I was a freshman in college I stumbled onto the fan website NO Mutants Allowed, promptly ordered Fallout 1 and 2 online and didn't listen to a single lecture I attended that first semester. Instead I sat in the lecture hall deciding whether to pay the water merchant to top up the vaults supply or if I shouod get my revenge on those pesky thieving kids. Good memories. Thanks again!

At this point I have lost count on how many of your videos I have favorited.

as someone whos trying to develop a game, especially one inspired by fallout, these videos are gold. thank you for taking the time to make and upload them.

I love all of your videos that touch on The Outer Worlds, it honestly might be my favorite game. And the combination of darkness and humor is one of the best parts. I'll never forget my first playthrough laughing as Guard Pelham, who is basically bleeding out in a cave due to his own Spacer's Choice weapon misfiring, is most concerned with the fact that he's struggling to remember the company slogan he's supposed to start all his conversations with. Some of the best early game world building through dialogue that I've experienced

@Ezio999Auditore

2 ай бұрын

It felt like 12 year old humor. Or subtlety. Despite the respect I have for Mr. Cain it wasn’t that good of a game.

@ScrimReaper91

2 ай бұрын

@@Ezio999Auditore While I respectfully disagree, you are of course entitled to your own opinion.

I love (Obsidian's) Grounded design pillars and core game loop. What a wonderful experience!

thanks for "Design Pillars". As game dev, i have own doubt about my current project. after watching this, i tried rough Design Pillars by one page and i could visualize and re-access the game design easily. Your video is entertaining and educational than other game design educations. p.s. Fallout 1/2 is still one of my nostalgia games influences (or haunt) my psyche. Thank you Tim Cain, despite of your difficult journey from Fallout production.

Setting -> Story -> Mechanics This is great, thank you. I've gotten into many arguments with friends and colleagues who disagreed with this concept over the years - they almost always argue the code and mechanics should come first, that the setting is irrelevant, and that the story is icing on the top. I've tried to explain that the setting inspires the core of the codebase, and the story decides the specifics of what you're going to code (e.g. what does the player character need to be able to do? Will there be a player character in the first place, or will the player view the game from another perspective?).

5:50 The design pillars are amazing

Thanks so much for sharing these Tim, these are great! I just want to say I appreciate just how well you nailed the dark but humorous aspect of Outer Worlds. It really made the game for me. Finding out that there was a huge internal power struggle, so much strife and suffering, over something as simple as diet tooth paste felt so ridiculous but painfully real at the same time. That moment made me really fall in love with the game and sealed the through line from fallout, to arcanum, to outer worlds.

Really good and insightful video Tim! This is going to help me a lot in my own game dev journey. Having the pillars before everything makes the addition of a mechanic or anything be more consistent and cohesive with the game. Would love more videos about how you make your games and your process.

I've been playing Arcanum recently and it's a mindblowing epic to me, I used to thought it is a bad idea to add technology as a main element into a fantasy world, but this incredible game changed my view completely. Thank you for the pleasure Arcanum has brought me, looking forward to the sequel of The The Outer Worlds.

I can't get enough Arcanum insights, keep it going Tim!

Thank you for all the wonderful tips! I loved the simplicity of The Outer Worlds. It felt comfy, if that makes sense.

Great video, as usual. You mentioned that not taking away the player's agency was a pillar in Fallout, but I love how you subverted it with the Bloody Mess trait in the game's ending.

What I learn here is that the design pillars seem to be those very striking characteristics that excite you by occurrence or by development, and that accumulate in a brainstorming session; and that at first glance are disconnected from each other; and that's because, whether we're talking about dark/humor, unrealistic/consistent, no right solution, extreme violence: sometimes they can be part of the aesthetic, sometimes part of a mechanic, sometimes part of a dynamic; The more general those criteria are, the more influence they have on all parts of the system and on the system as a whole. As a game design student; I find myself making those lists, but sometimes it can be complicated to organize them in a way that makes sense within a system and a game structure;. Now I think that those characteristics that are unique and specific to each game; They become easy to understand and manipulate as they go beyond the endless variations; They occupy a pre-established place in the different interconnected systems that make up the game structure.

Awesome video! I like a lot of the pillars you tend to choose. Very much appreciate not pidgeonholing the players. I remember being very frustrated with all the forced battles in Baldur's Gate, that really made Fallout shine for me.

I don't even know anything about game design but I just enjoy listening to you talk so passionately lol.

I'd like to know the pillars for the pillars of eternity games.

I adored the complexity and deepness of Arcanum's world. I always felt like there was something to do there. I still remember some cool areas that a player who were to only follow the main quest had no reason to visit and some great side quests. But I can also see why some people might have been turned away because of that. I would play the hell out of the sequel even though I don't really play video games that much any more, since it was my favourite cRPG on my childhood.

It really is a shame that Arcanum's complexity apparently turned people off. I was only a kid when it was introduced to me and I had a blast figuring it out, the complexity was part of the draw because I hadn't seen anything like it. Games that I didn't immediately "get" but could tell had a lot of options were the most exciting gaming experiences throughout my childhood. Even now I show friends and people I know stuff from Arcanum and be like "X, Y and Z is really cool to me. I don't see this in newer games" and then they go and pick the game up because they want to experience what it has to offer, and then we have a good time talking about it. The idea of there being Casual RPG fans in that era reviewing the game and going "This is too much, I don't like this" but a random kid could go "Man there's so much stuff here, I love all of this!" is actually kind of a bummer to think about. Because one of those voices will always have more weight in the gaming world. It makes me think of how I've seen an RPG have a pretty immersive journal (much like Arcanum) for tracking quests that was fun to read, but then the next release in that series opted for an objectives screen with quests and quest markers you can't get rid of or cancel. Yet they still have the gall to call it a Journal. I can't stand that RPG gaming is becoming a thing where players demand to be entertained and guided through a series of events while also being given checklists. Rather than being immersed in an interesting world where you go on adventures and you find what you find and that's it. If you miss stuff then oh well, you'll find different things on different playthroughs with different builds. That's what breaths longevity into a game in my opinion, not making the game 90 hours long and also making it so that you *have* to be able to see everything the first time. I got off on a tangent but the pillars stuff was fascinating and was exactly what I wanted to hear you talk about. Thank you.

Another amazing video thanks Tim! A small part of me thought this video would be...'take a cylinder, stretch it out vertically...Boom. Pillar.'

Love your videos. You seem like a genuinely awesome person.

Ooo. I really like what you said about how some of the silliest parts of the game were also the darkest. That feels like something that Fallout story writers/quest makers should absolutely keep in mind when writing in the setting.

Wonderful video. Thanks ! Stay hydrated, just saw 54C in Calfornia oO

@CainOnGames

Жыл бұрын

Thanks, I’m in Seattle where it’s only 14C.

I don’t really have any interest in personally engaging in game design, but you’ve done a great job of making your content broad enough to be enjoyed by any card carrying nerd, thanks!

I would love to read the full document. This is real game development history! publish it please!

Awesome video as always Tim! I'm really excited to play The Outer Worlds some time... I'm just so damn busy working on my game projects that I can't afford to get hijacked by an awesome RPG!

Hi Tim, I am an aspiring mmorpg designer and I absolutely love your videos. Thank you for making them. I love how you said that the design pillars are foundational and provide the intent of the game. I would go a step further and say they capture the vision of the intent of the game. Then each design adheres to those design pillars in various degrees depending on a plethora of variables. Some of the design pillars I have for my game are: Immersion, Challenge, Community, Player Agency, Thematic Cores, among others. Looking forward to more content!

Hi Tim, I just stumbled upon your channel and wanted to let you know that I was part of the localization team for 2 of your games (though you surely didn't have anything to do with loc because the publisher takes care of that): Wild Star and The Outer Worlds. Having played the Fallouts religiously in the late 90s, especially the TOW loc process is my career highlight. I've never had such good and extensive reference materials to work with. And on top of that after the game release we got keys from 2k. Yaaaay!

@CainOnGames

10 ай бұрын

You did a good job. Humor is hard to localize!

@theamazingbatboy

2 ай бұрын

@@CainOnGames As a bi-lingual Asterix reader I learned this at an early age. Learning a new language, jokes are the most complex and difficult things to master.

I really liked the Fallout 1 interface. It looked cool and played well. I was able to figure out how everything worked without ever reading the manual. The inventory management was pretty slow, but it was also kind of satisfying to drag and drop each item, so I didn't mind that too much.

TOW pillars are perfectly reflected in the game (the other two as well but I think that's hopefully obvious by this point)

Based on the title of the video I thought this was going to be about Pillars of Eternity :^) It's interesting how Outer Worlds has way less design pillars than Fallout, despite The Outer Worlds most likely having a way bigger team. I'd have thought that those Design Pillars would be more important with bigger teams, to get everyone on the same page, and that more pillars would therefore be more logical. But seems that isn't neccesarily the case.

@austemousprime

Жыл бұрын

It helps the 4th design Pillar was several pillars in one: "Obsidian RPG experience".

Having started video gaming on the Magnavox Odyssey II console, I remember a time when video gaming, was very much a niche interest. There are plenty of reasons why gaming is in a better place now, but one thing I miss is that early games did not seem afraid of appealing to a targeted audience, instead of being aimed at 'everyone'. Do you ever see a time when the industry will allow developers to make 'niche' games again, or is every AAA title going to be an 'appeal to the widest audience' endeavor? (There are merits to both.)

@lrinfi

Жыл бұрын

It'd be great if those that do try to appeal to as many people as possible would do something with them aside from simply trying to get a monetary return on the investment. There are far more forms of "return on investment" than the monetary variety and universal appeal is not impossible. I used to think of video games as a nascent art form, but am quickly learning that very few developers themselves think of them that way. An online group of which I'm a member recently tried to come up with some good examples of anthropocene storytelling in video games for a review of them in a chapter of an upcoming book its founder is writing and came up only with FF VII. Games as diverse as Death Stranding, Horizon Zero Dawn and Tears of the Kingdom were nominated, but I'm not sure they actually qualify. Most video game development companies appear to shy away from telling stories that are actually relevant to our lives and/or are reflective and meaningful in any way, generally going off into abject, escapist fantasylands at every opportunity instead when they're actually in a unique position to explore and aid in navigating the zeitgeist of the historical moment in which we find ourselves. They'd have to strike that unique balance of realism and "fun" of which Tim speaks and that's an exceptionally delicate balance to strike, but tragicomedy has been with us almost from the beginning, so we should have plenty of practice at it. :)

I think way too open of classes is too daunting in general, and classes help guide players. Being able to break the class and explore builds more complex is the best way of doing it. So, give a baseline stat/attribute/skill boost for certain things based on a class and some starting abilities, then allow players to break outside of that class. You want to kinda ease people into complex systems, it's surprising how complicated things people will actually acclimate to so long as you slow boil them into it.

Arcamun is such a great game. I wish it get a remaster one day with HD art and UI.

Blue sky ranger to power ranger! Dude you brought it to the next level

19:22 Tim, I'm sure someone already told that to you, but that's not what people called 'immersive sims'. It's not about realistic experience. It's a design philosophy of a very narrow number of games (mostly Looking Glass Studios, Arkane Studios, Deus Ex games) inspired by Ultima 7/Underworld. it's more about consistent rules and reactivity. Just look at Dishonored series, it's very far from realism. But the most important thing is lots of im-sim fans think that Troika's VTM Bloodlines perfectly fits into that design philosophy and is considered as an im-sim game. I guess the point of this is you can design an immersive sim unintentionally just having similar design pillars.

Love that shirt!

Design pillars popped up on my radar a while ago and I landed on 4. Since you’re on the subject I’m wondering if mine are too general or broad to be useful. 1. Story is King: a good story can save an ugly game but good art can’t fix a badly written game. 2. Great looking games are their own marketing assets. 3. Sound design is exactly as important as art direction. 4. The mechanics must reenforce the theme. What do you think?

Tim it's based that you end the videos in abrupt silence but when listening to a series of them it's nice to have an outro, just so I can know when it ends.

Fallout 1. Mega levels of violence 2. There is often no right solution 3. There will always be multiple solutions 4. Players actions affect the world an the world will react to the player 5. There sould always be a sence of urgency 6. The game should be open-ended 7. Player should always have goal 8. Player has control over his own actions 9. Good interface 10. Encounter windows 11. Wide variety of weapons and armor 12. Detailed character creation rules 13. Happy gurps 14. The team is very motivated Arcanum 1. Tech that matters 2. Character creation 3. Complex stat driven game system 4. Huge sinlge player quest lines 5. Multiplayer Outer worlds 1. Simple but deep 2. Dark but humorous 3. Fun trumps realism, but be consistent [4]. Outer worlds is classic obsidian game

@BunnyboyCarrot

3 ай бұрын

Thanks!

"Now we do everything in Confluence pages linked together" : how to terrify most programmers in 9 words

Long after the fact but I think I'm sold on Arcanum

that's sad about Arcanum. Seems like a real interesting game. I just started it, was very impressed by the diversity of the starting character traits (I made myself a Debutante).

Hey Tim. Curious if for urgency or making the dangerous/immersive aspects of the world of the game seem more believable, have you considered more survival mechanics at some point, like having to eat food, drink water, or other things? The Fallout games are always bringing light to how hard it is to survive in the games universe, but you can walk across the whole map without needing so much as a hamburger. I assume that there were a few things going against going this besides time constraints, so if you could elaborate on this sometime, that would be great. Also, do you think it's something that is possible or would be desirable to implement in a similar type of RPG game, or not? Thanks for your time.

Completely unrelated to anything but Tim what is your skincare regimen because your skin is so perfect in these videos!

@CainOnGames

Жыл бұрын

Thanks! I appreciate the compliment, but I also laughed a bit, because I am going to do a video on my Lost Decade, where I worked such long hours that I rarely saw sunlight for weeks on end. I think that might have helped my skin!

@ArcanumLover

Жыл бұрын

​@@CainOnGamesI would think the advantages of not being out in the sun are completely wiped away by the constant stress and long days of game development haha

I think you and your teams throughout your games have succeeded on achieving the stated design goals (except maybe the UI one on fallout 😅) In a reboot talk you gave about RPGs you mentioned that you thought that the Arcanum UI was even worse than Fallout's due to its many panels and sub-panels. Do you still feel that way? FWIW, I saw it as a colorful character sheet full of possibility (just like Arcanum's world). I'm curious about your thoughts on how to create "simple but deep systems" as you suggested for outer worlds. I feel that outer worlds system had promise but did not fully delivered (at least for me) through its incremental skill refinement and the perks available in the game. Would you change anything if you did it again now?

Fantastic talk, very inspiring. So thank you very much! About "Dark but Fun" - in my opinion, this is a slightly mistaken take on what worked in Fallout. What really worked (again, in my humble personal opinion - but how could I provide anything else) was "Dark with release valves". The darkness and misery builds up and needs a release. This can be violence (frustrated rage, look at them being torn to pieces, those mothaf...), resolving a conflict (phew - I made this world a bit less dark) or a bit of dark humor. But if everything dark is contrasted with humor, humor becomes a way of ignoring and accepting the darkness. Too much humor and the setting gets a sitcom quality. I think Pillars of Eternity 1 did this really, really well (my favorite fantasy party based rpg of all time, and I've played since "Dark Queen of Krynn" and EotB). So dark, so good. Like quality dark chocolate.

@eljefe4258

Жыл бұрын

I didn't like The Outer Worlds at all because of how badly the dialog was balanced, it was waaay too goofy and sitcom-like. Not to mention all the humor was on the nose.

I think the only issue with Fallout 1’s HUD from a modern perspective is that alot of the HUD buttons look like baked-in art rather than something intractable, which for me atleast, lead me to be confused when I first started playing.

I think having design pillars is important for any size project. Someone new to the industry should have clearly defined goals written down so they don't go spiraling out out of control or forget what they were doing in the first place. I've seen videos from indie devs that have had to scrap years of work because they lost sight of what the game was supposed to be about. Probably an important lesson to learn, but also very painful.

The timer for the water chip was fine, but the other, differents timers, for mutants invasion restrict every players to one single path when they want to do side quests and explore the map ( basically get rid of the master as fast as possible, and then enjoying and explore the rest of the game). Fallout wouldn't be as captivating and unique without all its timers though, so I don't really know what to think of them.

I wonder about the complexity pillar. It does make absolutely sense that complexity would scare away casual players but on the other hand, companies like Piranha Bytes or Paradox seem to be thriving without worry of this (from an outside perspective). Perhaps the sales they achieve on their products are less than that of Skyrim (or The Outer Worlds) but after all these years, they still keep on trucking (seemingly) staying true to their original, perhaps "overtly" complex vision.

@CainOnGames

Жыл бұрын

I like making all kinds of RPGs, so when I was asked to make something casual friendly, I had no trouble making less complex mechanics. In fact, I don’t think complicated mechanics appear anywhere on my list of design preferences. I should probably make a video on what those are…

I'm now curious how widespread the use of clay was in games. Quest for Glory used clay for their monster models in the VGA version.

@pervognsen_bitwise

Жыл бұрын

Famously, many of Doom's monster sprites were digitized clay models.

damn, i'm early. love your in depth videos been binging them and it's some of the most informative/engaging/detailed "gaming" content I've seen.

8th Pillar was violated by the 5th Pillar "Game Over" screen. That water chip timer was a huge failure on Pillar 8.

Hey, Tim, could you explain why there were no plans for Arcanum 2? The sales of the original Arcanum were actually pretty good.

@CainOnGames

Жыл бұрын

Troika had plans for Arcanum 2. I did a video about it. kzread.info/dash/bejne/lIiF3LCiiKubZrg.html If you are asking why the publisher didn’t have plans, they ran into financial difficulties.

@Suvitruf

Жыл бұрын

@@CainOnGames I somehow missed that video. Thanks!

Maybe it would be cool to be Spider-Man in a fantasy setting. Wall crawling, a danger sense, webs, and the proportional strength of a spider could fit into a setting. A super man whose weak to one type of rare rock or magic, thats a harder sell. If this was D&D and somebody wanted to play a fantasy Superman, somehow every villain would always have some kryptonite just like in Superman comics.

well, system didn't feel THAT complicate for Arcanum, the biggest blocker for me was leaving the crash site - there were no where to have a licensed copy, no internet too, I just had some first versions of the game without hint that map should change to world map...

@skittlesbarber25

Жыл бұрын

But even as a little kid you could figure out that halflings are the fiercest and strongest fighters for their dexterity :D

I love Outer Worlds, I finished it 4 times and I would gladly play it again. I met people who say it is not good and it has no replay value, but they aren't me.

@NakAlienEd

3 ай бұрын

I've still only played it once, but I've been meaning to get back into it. It honestly took me a few hours to really "get" the setting, so I'm looking forward to starting it and knowing a bit more of what shenanigans I can get up to now that I know the back story.

Many of these succeeded. But oh man. That interface...

I remember my takeaway from Outer Worlds was how solidly constructed it was. I thought it showed restraint in that it didn't try to do too much, and what it did include was done really well. The companions are all especially good in that I can tell a lot of thought and effort went into writing them. It's also one of the first games I played from a major studio that incorporated queer characters in a realistic and believable way. The dialogue is incredibly good. Parvati discussing her asexuality is casual and unstilted, just like it should be. It's awesome. I had gotten used to gigantic games full of half-baked ideas, and OW was really refreshing in that regard. It's really cool to hear about how the design pillars shaped that experience for me.

Do you play 40k much tim? They've had a big rules update lately saying "Simplified but not simple" 😂

Kind of funny the reason Arcanum is still kicking today is because of the multiplayer pillar

Arcanum is just as fantastic as fallout 1\2. It was even more unique in its setting than most other games.

@assassindelasaucisse.4039

Жыл бұрын

And the dialog options are awesome!

of eternity?

Idk think the interface is pretty good once you look at a quick guide.

The Seventh Column?

Speaking of Pillars, can you please elaborate more on how the Temple of Trials were built by a bunch of villagers? I know it's one of your least favorite aspect of the game but I am really curious why you pick a massive structure as a tutorial that looks like it could have been built by Mayans or Egyptians.

The people who wanted the timer in Fallout were pleading the fifth ;)

6:06 mega levels of violence? What does this mean? It's almost incomprehensible. We live in a state of unjustified gratuitous ultraviolence now. It's like comparing red paste to a red sand grain. 9:30 I love ornamented interfaces like Fallout and Resident Evil 4. We need it back DEARLY. "the team is motivated" is better written as "only have people on who wanna be on, don't force them".

Is this a one yake

797 likes 0 dislikes thats never heard of!

"Simple to pick up but complicated to master" was absolutely the way to go for OW, but I'm afraid it only really worked for the science weapons. Pure melee or shooting builds didn't feel really good to play. More whacky abilities outside of science weapons might have helped the system click better with people. Hopefully this works better for OW2 and this one gets the success it deserves.

That's the thing. If you make simple game, you are scaring hardcore players, who seek for complexity. If you are doing complex game, you are scaring casual players. That's how it is. As a gamedev I always bet on hardcore, even while I know from sales and profit standpoint it's the wrong decision. But that's how hardcore cult games are made though.

Fallout had a great interface, Arcanum not so much.

Excuse me, Leonard doesn't like silly????????????????

Comment for the Algorithm

I'm early to this video but I don't really have anything to say.

@BlackMasterRoshi

Жыл бұрын

I'm Gay,

casuals are the worst.

the zion pillows? is this about capitalism?