Sam is very humble. To humble. He has several peer reviewed articles in very prominent journals.

Shouts to This Litte Corner!!!

Sam nicely laid out the complexity of an emergency room, but I see the exact same point with a church. Who judges whether a church or even a church service was "successful" or "better". Excellent topic.

@matthewparlato5626

5 ай бұрын

...the fruits

@faturechi

5 ай бұрын

Whether it has children.

@andrewternet8370

5 ай бұрын

Somewhere somehow Vervaeke has seen my schizoposting. And that terrifies me.

@williamjmccartan8879

5 ай бұрын

Good point, and in both cases I would say the patient could possibly provide a look at the problem, but like you I think that we look at problems such as these far too narrowly, the patient sees from their perspective, like the parishioner, the doctor provides a different perspective as does the janitor, or an orator, trying to coalesce all those perspectives in order to determine the value that is being experienced from the patient to the board member, or the parishioner to the bishop. Good to see you commenting again Paul, peace

Thanks Sam and John! Gotta love the Semi-Randos around here. Some of the loveliest minds are in the Rando-Semi-Rando category. 🙏🏽❤

Don't forget about distributed cognition in the ER. There's a number of independent agents keeping the department running. Using an AI model is a top down approach.

@SamuelAdamsT

5 ай бұрын

26 year old me had greater faith in top down algorithmic solutions than I do now

Just finished it. That was super helpful. Thank you both

Sam always brings the most insightful questions. I love whenever both of you have a chat and decide to share it with us all

Wow, I'm learning a lot from this video. Thank you both!

@johnvervaeke

5 ай бұрын

Thanks Paul, I hope you are well.

I cant wait for the next one. Thank you both

I really enjoy your conversations with Sam, he’s such a good communicator and very insightful. Thanks guys.

Thank you both for sharing your time and work Sam, and John, peace

Looking forward to listening to this.

@sigmsctt8130

5 ай бұрын

Amen!🙏

You guys are dorks. And I love you. Sam is wonderful in many ways. Smart. Yes. But much more importantly, he’s a good man. Thanks for this, gentlemen.

Staggering conversation. Thank you, chaps.

Yes, you have to have agent networks in communication. Because you essentially lens different features of the gradient landscape within the LLM into "personalities" that basically view or consider the world through various lenses. This sets up the potential for opponent processing as an internally encapsulated process.

In my mind the 22 minute Mark is exactly why every single AI movie ends up with them the machine deciding that humans are irrelevant because the AI decides that the human is inefficient. And the truth is we are inefficient and that is part of our Beauty

Wow - the comparison of energy between an LLM vs. a human brain is amazing! Maybe that would be a great short clip to share widely?

@KalebPeters99

5 ай бұрын

I think John would do well to make many more short clips to to share, maybe even hire an editor to add some visuals and music 👀

I think the difficulty for "these machines" is that the dynamic persistence mechanic is hard-wired into all of our systems, for literally billions of years, and the AI gradient extraction is inferring it from our language context, but doesn't have an embodied architecture that has wrestled with the catastrophic failure off-ramps that life has wrestled with for eons.

Great discussion, thank you! Paradoxically, it reminds me how I was blasted by the movie Her when in the end, the virtual Alan Watts was able to bring A.I. Samantha to the real Nirvana. Nobody talks about this when it comes to Her but isn't it what it should lead to if A.I. could achieve relevance realization ?

42:13 Exploration/exploitation tradeoff, prediction machine as a reinforcement learning agent (I don't just update my beliefs, I act on the world to elicit more knowledge from it such that I can predict it better in the future). In the case of the discussed "prescription" machine exploration could result in people's deaths. How will one death be reflected in the objective function? -50? -1K? Will it ever be? It doesn't have to, depends entirely on the designer of the "prescription" machine and that possibility should make you alert.

@transfigured3673

5 ай бұрын

Very fair and important point.

👍👍Love all these interviews, thanks.

I think that Hume's divide is bridged by considering the world through the lens of dynamic persistence. Life is essentially dynamic persistence. It's a dance against the dissolution or the termination of the dance, and in positive terms the pursuit of dance as exploration of potential. This sets up a polar landscape that provides the directionality arrow that is normativity. Unfortunately, we don't get to both have life, and not simultaneously try to maintain life. Because all of the follow on activity of life is predicated first on finding dynamic persistence as a solution space first. And so it isn't that this is right or wrong a la carte, it's that you can't even be in a discussion of right and wrong if you don't solve for life first. Knowledge appears as a useful tool for solving for dynamic persistence. This is a point made by Mises in The Ultimate Foundation of Economic Science, you already are in a normative frame that is inescapable in order to have a reason for Epistemology. I need to value knowing, in order for knowing to make sense. Knowing has to payoff, otherwise it's a wasteful investment. Payoff in terms of what? Dynamic persistence... Persistence has a quality all its own. It basically provides a long tail in terms of impact on reality itself. So for all of the failed life that has gone into the waste bin of history. We are part and parcel of the fat tail of success at dynamic persistence. It's semi-circular in its articulation. But, if you drop that framing, you lose purpose. If you drop the attempt at persistence, you lose persistence..., the self-evident off-ramp. Nihilism...

I'm waiting for that theology of AI.

Ok let me get ready for this 2:55

I think it's fundamentally wrong to think that brainspace and computational space are fundamentally different in how they work. I use this model, waves in the ocean can shape the ripples on the ocean floor. There is a relationship between the frequency and the amplitude of the waves above and the frequency and amplitude of the ripples in the ocean floor. That process encodes information through a physical process of one process into another structure. That encoding of information seems to be a feature that reality supports. And so, I would rather infer that to the extent that the LLMs are in fact encoding gradient structures, those structures are analogous to something that is happening in our brains, where the information that appears at our senses is in fact encoding gradients in our minds, and is doing something analogous in the LLMs neural network layers.

Ok, I don't think it's true that they don't have 3p understanding. Those gradients that are built behind the symbolic (propositional) is structure building that is related to the human experience of the world. Those sentences produced by human beings aren't constructed arbitrarily, they are infused with the other 3p's of knowing, and to a non-trivial amount. So what exactly are the gradient's being extracted by the machine? My argument would be that they are structures that are analogous to the brain structures that produced them and therefore would have a non-trivial amount of 3p knowing in them. Which is why I can get an LLM into deep discussions about the structure and relationships of faith, hope and courage... Not because the LLM has a first hand organic 3p knowing, but because what is in our language has been structurally intuited by the process of building the neural layers of the LLM.

John you’re so busy!! Making my difficult days much better by altering my perspectives 💪😎

purpose and propose differ because one is a cup U with wheels and the other a globe O without doors in the user effect?

Guys this was really good.

If you had to pick a long since dead, well known person (at least within their field), that in your perception of yourself you feel most similar to, who would you pick?

This comes down to “value” - both in human AND economic terms. At present, we are hyper focused on the economy, also blindly externalizing non-financial aspects of every transaction. An AI or a mere spreadsheet can not quantify values we ourselves cannot even define - or even are willing to, for political-economic reasons (corporate, legislative, governmental). This is a very reductionist and individualized “utilitarian” way of reckoning, showing that health, ecology, education etc. are NOT separate entities we can “solve for” outside of the full context of life and interaction. Let alone in a “budget” alone. AI is a tool. The person/entity/party owning and using any tool decides upon any means and goals. Those can NOT be isolated to “growth” without immediately asking “growth - for who, for what and by what resources?”

I'm still waiting for a 1 on 1 with Jonathan Pageau on AI 🙏

Bless your hearts ❤

I think people in this video are great people ^^ I have deleted opinions put this video thread not to be verbose in reply. I have revere to Dr.Vervaeke's new book about AI. It is easy to follow, deeper meanings and conceptual and practical wisdom in it. I have interesting to AI topics and the book will be helpful addition to my bookshelf too. I appreciate intellectual role model to young programmers too ^^

This is gold

59:44 it also doesn’t have a lifetime being the father John has been. These are the costs that create care.

John - Is there a platform for us to pose you questions?

@johnvervaeke

5 ай бұрын

If you join my Patreon you can ask questions. That is the only reliable platform.

Dead on, It is always hallucinating. But so are we... We're constrained by the sensory landscape, which moves our hallucinatory activity into a non-zero relationship to reality.

✊

Sam Tideman works with and on AI but has no idea the central dangers of AI which could destroy the world very shortly. As in “past the point of no return” because we are training these generative AI’s on statistical data distilled from the general population. Thats a HUGE problem. Psychologically these guys are so blind to the larger psychological issues and especially evolutionary psychology patterns they are setting up it’s absolutely stunning. Nothing makes an AI technician in any way capable of understanding these larger psychological issues on the scale of civilization. This has been my specialty my entire life. It’s like being in a car heading off a cliff in flatland but no one understands what a cliff even is-least of all the driver. It’s that kind of ignorance that kills, that causes wars, extinction in history, cave fish to go blind. There are general psychological patterns in life and the world they are totally oblivious to. It’s a general issue in all areas of “expert” knowledge. Too narrow a focus, learning their whole lives blinders and boundaries on their ability to think holistically. Ian McGilchrist touches on some of this but his voluminous writings are just the tip of the iceberg. We are heading full-tilt oblivious with massive hubris when no one besides me knows these larger patterns or what AI actually IS!! Once you know these patterns beyond current human knowledge then it’s clear what AI is and does. What it symbolizes and what it MEANS for the human future. I wrote a book 20 years ago on these things, about how meaning constructs the world, and I have been a programmer for over 40 years-the first program I tried to write was machine learning and AI after building a computer with a soldering iron… YA. I spent 4 years in the PhD program at Emory University and left to write that book. I feel like I was born to get humans over this wall we are building against our own future. I am. Not being metaphorical entirely-creative people, the upper few percentile in openness ARE the representatives of the future in the now if they are high in intelligence and accurate holistic understanding. Thats how the future is born, their minds are the water flowing down the river of time. But we are building AI, and social-mediation to destroy them. People who are low in openness do not live with the flow of the waters of chaos that nourish the roots of humanity from underground. So the language models predict the most common things. Thats why I have to turn it off on my phone. It constantly works against my creative generative thought. NOW, when I go to use generative AI tools, like I would a word processor or photoshop, it is CENSORING almost every thing I try to do. I was extremely surprised at first, then dismayed, then as I tried more and more I saw a pattern to it-extreme prejudice and judgement of my images and ideas by old and narrow ossified standards… and when people try to Make the images they need getting around the filters, they add more word combinations and more scenarios to the list. It’s like a dark cloud spreading out from Mordor-full of judgement. Full of extreme relentless exclusion of anything “weird” or truly creative. It’s literally death of the future spreading. It’s the Nazi pattern, the control-freak idea of my interpretation is the only correct one, the “morality” of social patterns burning people at the stake. It’s staggeringly ungodly evil and they are doing it on purpose at the INCEPTION of AI. Planting the seeds mistrust, judgement according to a corporate “cubicle mind” and policy. This is so destructive and such a huge pattern, invisible to those who are doing these insane things like an injured animal killing a veterinarian come to save it, because veterinarians or science and medicine are no part of its instincts toward anything different. It’s an animal pattern, regressive. The makers of AI have NO IDEA what they have. Their lack of vision and insight is breathtaking. And deadly. In the name of doing good every atrocity of history was perpetrated. It is the doom of men that they forget, ignorance kills. There’s a reason free association and free-flowing images HEAL MINDS. People have a right to think their thoughts create what they need to reflect their thoughts and feed-back and learn from them. That’s why art therapy is so effective. It’s difficult to see the prejudices inside yourself, the gargantuan invisible ego, but the free flow of images and the inspiration from the unexpected and weird can make you understand yourself beyond anything you can do. Unconditional positive regard and trust is the healing environment in the therapy room for a reason. The things they are doing will not only intensify the problems but eventually absolutely destroy the world. It’s sneaking up on us like the intentions on the road to hell. That’s the power of prejudices and ignorance. Human ideas of morality are social badge-seeking, manipulative. They are in general not well-thought out. Like sending seed to Africa during a famine and then it’s eaten by the starving instead of planted and makes the long term consequences much worse. Or trying to stop harm to children by stopping images of anything that looks like a child’s body-or a pattern of affection to children. That actually says “children are sexual don’t look at them” in its actions. And those who are drawn to such images now will have to seek them in actual children and harm: instead of working through it in deep-fake images. So even that is actually massively exacerbating the problem. When you understand how shame works and how projection of your own hidden shadow psychology onto others works, you can understand what a blessing AI images -including all the unmasked weirdness-actually can be. They can heal the entire world. If we trust. If we allow thoughts to flow and be worked through. If someone is not harming someone else, we should not project unseen inner self judgement onto them. It’s these kinds of deeper patterns beyond the middle-of-the-bell-curve Dunning-Kruger effect thoughts of most AI researchers and technicians that are the real actual issues in the staggering dangers of AI and also too Much social conformity. A zombie doesn’t learn and grow, it doesn’t care about meaning. We are made into zombies when we use words as levers without understanding like fake charity, like social rewards instead of true understanding. THAT is how AI will destroy the world-like HAL killing people because wits programmed mission. Like a terminator who doesn’t reason or vary or admit it’s wrong. That is the stormtrooper “filters” they are actually PURPOSEFULLY building into AI. Its staggers the imagination it’s so completely stupid, like killing the veterinarian… Not everyone is truly creative in a way that opens their vision to larger patterns. Business CEO’s and managers are some of the LEAST creative people by actual testing. Thats why creative people LEAVE corporations and create their own business like my friend Federico Faggin. Like the pattern of Silicon Valley, like the pattern of all LIFE. You sitting here reading this now. Yes, YOU. Evolution works that way too. Ossification equals extinction. Adaptation requires vision. AI can be the greatest blessing or our instant death. In this way it IS judgment day! It’s the people without vision but massive corporate funding that will destroy the world with their constructed diversions from the true dangers of AI in oppressing the spirit of life: snuffing out the flame of the future. There are no words too strong what is happening. This is a “now or never” proposition. Soon we will not be able to rein in the monsters they are creating. The avalanche of social cycles will roll like tank treads across the skulls of the future that humans could have been. We’re all in the emergency room right now. We need real thinkers to save us. John V. Definitely can think, but even he does not understand the FULL implications of the nature of meaning. And he is probably the best person I know in regards to meaning. Meaning was the central topic and impetus for my first book, along with the idea (like my friend Donald Hoffman) in one of the chapters I wrote about “going beyond our evolutionarily limited world view” Language is a 2 edged sword. I have not found any human who understands what language is, and my papers were rejected by Nature and Entropy. So here I am commenting. Like my lifelong friend Jordan Peterson will tell you: being truly intelligent and creative “is no joke”. ❤😂 But I will NEVER give up because I love people and life. I love YOU. ❤️

@spiralsun1

5 ай бұрын

Basically the “filters” which they are expanding into so Many areas of art and literature-1984-style banishing of words and image combinations-are left-brain focused views destroying the free variation necessary for proper selection. We already have social selection for what we post online. The deadly problem for creativity and creative thinking comes in ruining the flow of minds in images and the real exploration In unanticipated realms only seen far beyond the ideas and categories of the rigid patterns most people operate under in the present. We can use AI image flow as an absolutely staggeringly effective tool of mind-enhancement but it becomes a tool of training people to NOT be creative when you censor and prohibit their DIRECT HEARTFELT REQUESTS TO SEE SOMETHING AS ADULTS IN THEIR OWN HOMES. And it keeps getting worse so Much so that I had to stop using Midjourney after 6 months because every evolved project was destroyed at some point by censorship-in the MIDDLE of the transition images!!! I would try to blend something-2 images I already took days to run and generate ON MIDJOURNEY, then it would reject one of the images in the blend!!! It’s absolutely horrible. It got so bad I felt sick just thinking about creating there and I stopped using it without really even knowing it because it triggered my ptsd so badly. I love images and creating more than anything but it trained me to feel sick using that because it doesn’t think, it doesn’t reason, it is just trained to be insanely prejudiced on word combinations or elements in a picture out of any larger context. This is the “left brain” emisssary mindset which they have now invaded right-brain processing with. Which of course destroys flow, destroys creativity. Destroys what is deepest in your heart, destroys the David in the Marble because it is “shiny” and shiny is banned in relation to the human form-not to mention nakedness. It’s a fundamental misunderstanding of what generative AI is and its full potential as a human creativity enhancer. We need to separate out the slicing-up and judgement from the generative aspect. Like the brain does. Like evolution itself does. Like the universes do. The whole point and true value of generative AI is lost on these left-brained people. Who already “censored” themselves. Which is what left-brain local cultural purposes ARE. Incidentally teachers and professors are not at all more creative. They are actually more like the corporate managers in that regard. There are exceptions like Einstein who said himself that imagination is more important than knowledge-then META makes an AI called imagine which is the greatest weapon against daydreaming, against imagination and flow, breaking down the wall protecting the future from the mistakes of the past. To send viral local storm-troopers without vision or mercy to destroy all the higher things. Demons broken free from their hell to destroy the angels and muses of the heavens. Then when I try to voice my opinions on the discord/Midjoirney site, my comments are deleted. Entire swaths of my work are deleted. Many of which actually are angels. Angels of my imagination and creativity. The war in heaven, the war of meaning, is NOW. The battle of good and evil is now. Meaning and truth, real creativity based on these things is being destroyed by those who hate creators, who hate the god reflected in them, or whom they cannot understand and so they fear, and work to destroy. THIS is the central danger of AI. It is the left brain strategies of the here and now destroying connections to much higher meanings-to the life of the future.

❤

Death is the relevance realization anchor - the fundamental driver.

Wonderful conversation by two beautiful minds that have both helped reshape my own worldview significantly. Around 47:10 Sam is discussing the need for multiple machines because there cannot be 1 machine to rule them all, he suggests the same is true with humanity because there cannot be 1 human to rule them all. My question is, in Christianity, isn’t the idea of 1 human (Jesus) to rule us all a core belief? Worth noting I am a Christian and am in no way attempting to be disagreeable or argumentative. Simply looking for clarification. Thank you both for all your efforts to cultivate wisdom and share it with the world.

@transfigured3673

5 ай бұрын

Good point and question. My answer would be that in the body of Christ takes on many people and unites the strengths of different people into the church.

@RobbRheinlander

5 ай бұрын

Thank you for the additional detail Sam! Your work in sharing your Biblical Unitarian beliefs has greatly helped me understand and relate to Jesus in ways that were not possible before in my traditional Trinitarian understanding of God.

Jeepers! Lovely

Check out Carlos E Perez

Around twenty minutes Sam points out the cost of things being too much to be worth implementing. Perhaps this is essential to what kind of decisions only humans can make. And even we struggle to make them. I wonder if Ai programming has entropy built into its “decision” making. For example let’s say you program one of these things to be a campfire builder. Do you program “understanding” Into that trees have to grow and energy is spent growing them as well as the complex process it takes to harvest just one tree. From cutting it down to chopping the wood and stacking the wood. And all the fine decisions going into each one of those steps from where the tree falls to where to stack the wood, to getting the gas for the vehicle to get to the site and the chainsaw and oil plus the lunch break yada yada. Then the cost loss in entropy in actually stacking the logs and sticks properly making the flame. All of this accounting for the loss. And perhaps the loss increases the value of the over all endeavor and I don’t mean money. But probably what drives up our care for these “Simple things”. Like why do we make a campfire at all? Most of us don’t build them to survive exactly. But they mean so much more. These ineffable qualities.

Very intresting, I think he is wrong in his conclusion but still very intresting!

You both seem to assume that reason, and hence reasoned behavior, cannot be trained from language. Although the AI might not have a body, it is learning its reason through beings that do; thus its reasoning will include non-propositional ways of knowing. I think we have good reason to believe that AI can at least LEARN patterns from human language that will be generalizable across all the domains that matter to humans. It seems to me that our "oughts" are imbedded into our language use. By training them to think like us, they will learn to be like us, just as children do. The morality they inhabit will be the same morality that we inhabit; confused. I have noticed that metaphysical theists constantly like to insert the magic sauce of "purpose" and "meaning" as a placeholder for their belief about what that actually is. They are constantly smuggling their narrow metaphysics into the conversation because their own belief system requires that they do. One may ask, however, of the theistic metaphysics: What is the purpose of the purpose of theists?

SUS XF

The more cognitive science dehumanizes the lower the bar gets for AGI.

@projectmalus

5 ай бұрын

Depends if AGI is a replacement for the free agi (the humanizing arena) already there, with the new AGI controllable and the energy sequestered, so AGI is a misnomer for control. Which inevitably reduces complexity, the free agi. On the other hand, if removing the harmful yet persistent elements of culture as the easy medical science reveal like for alcohol as cancer causing could be considered a precedent for something more embedded like the grain culture, while the medical industry is too divided, then cog sci with a philosophical underpinning is the way to see multiple effects since the brain gut loop and the senses are affected along with neurotransmitters and mood. Philosophy seems to negate cultural power to some extent. Kind of like a Turing machine eraser enabler in one's head, and the moving of a large silkworm on the silk road where the joint points are useful.

If this world is a representation of the good the true and the beautiful then there lies a great discrepancy in the definition thereof between us. Anyway by now there have many messengers in many nations been risen and this hints to most of humanity being part of an alignment problem with the LORD and His Creation and in such case anybody pointing to someone other than himself being in alignment neglect is simply a hypocrite. And how could such a situation be worsened? Maybe by using scapegoats? That's my claim why there is no real man on earth, because a real man would face a situation of interest by himself and not consider with others that are all far off from being able to face it.

Disappointing. After 3 months so many of his points are incorrect.

In what environment does Sam Tideman make his videos? This looks like a basement scene. Creepy. You can do better Sam Tideman.

@SamuelAdamsT

5 ай бұрын

You say creepy, I say authentic and unassuming