This video is re-uploaded with kind permission from Cameron Bertuzzi's KZread channel, 'Capturing Christianity'. Cameron hosts some excellent discussions and debates, well worth checking out: kzread.info/dron/ux-_Fze30tFuI_5CArwSmg.html

@stylis666

4 жыл бұрын

@Benjamin Park Just give it some time and Cameron will show his manipulative intentions behind his "kindness". He always has and always will. The only question is whether his religion made him a sociopath or if he is a sociopath that uses religion to hide behind and get respect for behaviour that, without religion would never be accepted by a loving human being.

@azrielgalila2107

4 жыл бұрын

Spacetime is flat, so the Universe is Infinite and Eternal and was never created. So there was no creation and no God! The whole underlying assumption is stupid!

@swazilandandbotswana8856

4 жыл бұрын

Azriel Galila yeah man that comment just disproved they whole entire Big Bang theory!

@swazilandandbotswana8856

4 жыл бұрын

Azriel Galila also do we actually know that space time is flat, and if it is how does make the universe infinite.

@stylis666

4 жыл бұрын

@@swazilandandbotswana8856 Big Bang theory doesn't exclude an infinite, eternal universe. I'm not sure how flat spacetime would show that the universe is infinite, but I do know that your comment about it is entirely false. Big Bang theory says nothing about the origin of the universe and it also shows that all creation myths are exactly that: myths. Believing them to be real was already quite silly, but believing them after they've all been shown to be false is quite delusional.

nobody would read the lord of the rings if there is no evil. so god invented evil, so people will read bible. marketing 💯%

@jan782001

4 жыл бұрын

Stonks

@mikechapman1992

4 жыл бұрын

I almost stopped watching the video when he made this argument

@nero4238

4 жыл бұрын

that guy is a joke

@alexn1199

4 жыл бұрын

I usually respect the conversations provided by people Alex talks to. The only one that really frustrated me, before this, was the one with Frank. But this one takes the cake. Frank simply seemed a little rude. Kinda “I’m older and wiser than you” but made coherent arguments. This dude did not. Not only is the lotr argument wild. But the whole concept of “I’d rather have bad so we can have heroes because that’s fun” is on another level. It’s basically like saying “I value the novelty of life more than I value the lives of those who suffer” and I think he tries to justify it because of the existence of heaven. Which is horrible. And even more than that, he repeatedly makes the claim “I had a tough childhood and it doesn’t effect me now” as if people don’t suffer long-lasting and life-long effects from childhood trauma. I cannot respect this guy one bit.

@mikechapman1992

4 жыл бұрын

@@alexn1199 hit the nail on the head

Micheal: “I endured tremedous suffering through childhood. But what happens then doesn’t affect you as an adult” African child soldier: “OK, switch place?”

@flutterwind7686

3 жыл бұрын

@a stranger i wish I believed in god, but the belief doesn't hold any validity. I have no reason to believe that I will become a billionare in 2 days, just like I have no reason to believe in god or heaven.

@flutterwind7686

3 жыл бұрын

@a stranger nobody gives a shit

@JuanLopez-rl7ry

3 жыл бұрын

@a stranger Why are there many different types of Qurans?

@GapWim

3 жыл бұрын

a stranger | I very much doubt your incessant spamming and harassment everywhere is a conducive way to reach your intended goal. Unless, that is, if your goal is for everyone to eventually ignore you and have a deeper dislike of Islam and Muslims. … If the latter: good job! This is my very last message to you and everytime I come across one of your posts I will report it as spam.

@GapWim

3 жыл бұрын

Blaq Inkz | I bet he still believes fresh and salt water don’t mix because it’s in his holy book 😂🤣

Ah, so childhood cancer makes the world interesting. Got it.

@User-fr1zj31

3 ай бұрын

Yeah surely a boundless God couldn't find another way to make life interesting

@dje3.16

3 ай бұрын

You see this world as an end-product. This is a fallen world where suffering is everywhere. It doesn't mean every form of suffering is good, but God is not going to relieve suffering in a fallen world, no matter how severe the suffering is.

@sunwukong6917

29 күн бұрын

​@@dje3.16that just speaks to either god is cold and cruel or non existent

@PlaySolosWithMe

16 күн бұрын

strawman of the century

Catching him saying he wouldn't want his own child to experience immense suffering was the final nail.

@noamaster3898

3 жыл бұрын

@@SilenceDogwood. Ah, that's not a gotcha--that's my point: No moral being, human or god, WOULD say that...or do that. Yet it's the foundation of IP's theology, and the mechanism by which his God saves. (An omnipotent God of Love, who could snap his fingers and forgive, instead has a Perfect Plan™ to forgive through blood sacrifice, torture, familicide, and substitutionary atonement--all immoral acts that solve nothing. Besides substitutionary atonement being a nonsequitur, a la Stanhope's "Jesus died for your sins / I hit my foot with a shovel for your mortgage.") So it's a rich moment of cognitive dissonance, a tacit admission and underlining of the immoral, grotesque act at the center of Christianity; Humans are so bad, that in order for the Love God to forgive them and not send them to Hell, God had to do something NO moral human would do.

@jesushad12gayfriendwhoallb50

2 жыл бұрын

@@SilenceDogwood. isn’t it weird how separation from god wasn’t seen as bad so theists had to make up a fire dimension lmao.

@TaeyxBlack

10 ай бұрын

@@jesushad12gayfriendwhoallb50yup. it’s not just “become a christian so u can have relationship with god”, because most people, rationally, would respond, “who tf is that? i don’t need a relationship with that person who cares?” the stick had to be added to the carrot. “become a christian so you can have a relationship with god……*OR ELSE*.” it turns the “gift of salvation” into a threat of torture.

Very problematic that childhood trauma was just brushed over as not being a big deal...

@ninototo1

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed, it's troubling

@fiftylester

2 жыл бұрын

I think the christian could do with reading some Gabor Matè books and educating himself on the immenss impact childhood trauma has. He says he hasn't been impacted by his traumatic experiences with his mother and maybe he hasn't but maybe he haz and just hasn't connected the dots . His "logic" that leads him to his god belief does not fill me with hope he would be logical in other ways. He should also study ACES which in a very black and white way show the impact on adults of adverse childhood experiences . To trivialise and patronise others who have trauma ranging from childhood sexual abuse to physical beatings to millions of kids literally starving to death every year . Kids (such as myself) being born to parents who were made put us up for adoption and hence creating a huge disconnect between my biological parents and I that will never resume what "should have been". Kids being raped by priests all over the world . The catholic church ignoring it for decades and helping it to continue by their lack of accountability . Those kids who have now grown up , many have come forward to say they have severe mental health issues, dysfunctional sex lives etc. Trauma is a lot more wide ranging than one guy with an anecdote of a mother who sorted herself out with her issues. Many mothers and fathers are not so lucky. Does that disprove his claim ? If not why use his mothers rehab as a claim of evidence towards God's existence. He raises so much inconsistent bullshit it's hard to follow . Bringing up unfalsifiable elements like the afterlife etc ignores the fact the premise isn't objectively accepted as truth. If my auntie had wheels she'd be a bike.

@ton1

2 жыл бұрын

Am I am the only one, who thinks IP is maybe beating his daughter?

@DancingWithLucifer

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah “people go through horrible things as children but once you’re an adult it goes away and isn’t a big deal” is the wildest take I’ve heard in a while

@davidsabillon5182

2 жыл бұрын

He had no choice but to move on.

If there was no evil in Middle Earth I wouldn't want to read that book but I sure as hell would want to live in that world! There's a reason that "may you live in interesting times" is a curse.

@funnblox

4 жыл бұрын

Exactly! Like the times we're living in are certainly going to be an interesting read in history books...but there's no way I'd rather be living in this era than a more boring "normal" future era

@jamesrockybullin5250

4 жыл бұрын

It's abhorrent to defend pain and suffering by saying it makes it interesting for the "reader". Does that mentality condone torturing pets? Rape? It's the mentality of a psychopath.

@tincanmaniac1931

4 жыл бұрын

@@jamesrockybullin5250 no one is defending pain and suffering. What are you on about.

@jamesrockybullin5250

4 жыл бұрын

@@tincanmaniac1931 Yes, Michael Jones (IP) is defending pain and suffering. Michael is defending an omnibenevolent God who causes or at least allows pain and suffering. An omnibenevolent God would minimize pain and suffering. So IP's position is that the pain and suffering in the world is the minimum it can be, and he spends time giving reasons why it is necessary. He even goes so far as to say that a world without pain and suffering would be a terrible place to live. In this context, giving reasons why pain and suffering are necessary is the same thing as defending pain and suffering.

@dogsdomain8458

4 жыл бұрын

@@tincanmaniac1931 literally the entire point of a theodicy

- Keep in mind there's a heaven ! - Suffering is temporary ! - Near death experiences let people peak into heaven ! - People in hell like to be in hell ! - Suffering is a consequence of free will! Nope, I'm out. Can't even get through the opening statement and lost all hope there's gonna be something to take away form this debate.

@sad-pt7xd

4 жыл бұрын

If people in hell like being in hell, Pascal’s wager is an even weaker argument lmao

@elvancor

3 жыл бұрын

@joey joestar Just like you "know" a lot about my default state, huh? What can I say except: you're wrong, and accusing your opponent of being close-minded is a very poor defense of your own arguments. I'm always ready to be pleasantly surprised by discussions like these, even IF I don't expect to be convinced. With this one, I could've given up at "remember there's a heaven" (completely baseless assertion and besides the point), but kept watching until he brought up free will (illogical concept). Libertarian free will is always employed save the narrative of God punishing us, but it isn't a thing. If a believer still thinks it is, it's not gonna go anywhere.

@vhawk1951kl

Жыл бұрын

There are no " near death experiences" but an abundance of liars and self -deceivers

Maaan when your first argument for god allowing kids to suffer and die is "it's okay because they'll get to go to heaven"

@daviddeida

3 жыл бұрын

You not accepting kids suffering from cancer and doing nothing to prevent it means you are in hell and suffering already.

@garyskinner2422

3 жыл бұрын

@@noobslayeru No I'll just buy ecstasy and have the high without the suffering

@sgracem2863

3 жыл бұрын

@@noobslayeru Would you be willing to be sexually abused beaten tortured everyday of your life for 40 years until you are finally skinned alive and killed as long as you could spend eternity in o great heaven? Or would you rather experience neither? Idk about you but my answer is obviously to experience neither. Your arguing point comes from an incredible position of privilege and lack of sympathy. It is clear that you have not had to experience anywhere near this level of suffering in your life or considered what it is truly like for some people who have to experience a life like this.

@jatniel3297

Жыл бұрын

Heaven is eternal, suffering is temporary. I feel like a lot of people downplay eternity. Us humans can't properly grasp infinity, but I assure you an infinite time period of happiness free of suffering heavily outweighs any suffering in what is relatively an instant. It's easy to lose sight of eternity and focus on pain and sufferings that move us deeply on an emotional level. I understand being a murder victim or a victim of lascivious crime is awful, but on a logical standpoint an infinite pleasurable and happy heaven should trump any pain in between. I don't think many people could agree that being in a spiritual and physical state where pain doesn't exist and never will again would not be more than enough to compensate for brief life of suffering (of various magnitudes).

@sirbaguette8378

Жыл бұрын

@Maximo Mantero Well, that of course depends. If we had 100% definitive proof that the existence of Heaven as portrayed in the Bible (or any other religion where there is an afterlife of paradise), then yes. I would willingly suffer every second of my mortal life to get into this place. That would be the rational thing to do, as heaven is eternal, my mortal suffering is temporary, as someone above said. The problem is, we don't have any definitive proof that heaven even exists and its basically unfalsifiable. So now it basically becomes pascal's wager, to which my answer would be no, I would not willingly suffer.

Alex's opponent starts by saying consider the totality... if a child dies a painful death from cancer, he goes to heaven so suffering wasn't evil. So a serial killer who kills children & sends them to heaven isn't evil?

@poplionandrew5803

4 жыл бұрын

Anything at all?

@utubepunk

4 жыл бұрын

@@poplionandrew5803 Can you rephrase your question?

@poplionandrew5803

4 жыл бұрын

@@utubepunk Closer to truth: consciousness, cosmo, God

@rickydevmj

4 жыл бұрын

@@utubepunkif a person dies of old age, is God, if he exists, committing evil?

@utubepunk

4 жыл бұрын

@@poplionandrew5803 Can you rephrase your question without the cryptics?

To say that suffering is acceptable because the good will always overcome or outweigh the suffering is an extremely privileged & naive position

@nyutrig

3 жыл бұрын

I don't think you could scientifically prove something like that.

@jsull81

3 жыл бұрын

@@nyutrig "Prove" is probably the wrong word to use, but I am pretty sure there's research to suggest this. At least, I've heard anti-natalist site it before

@katharinafisher394

3 жыл бұрын

it irked me how he kept bringing up fiction to make the point of triumph of good over evil. and note how quickly he withdrew from definitive arguments when the question of 'what if it was your child' came up. imagine if his daughter were to be ripped apart by a hungry lion in a gladitorial arena and some roman spectator dude explained to him 'well, that's not so bad. she gets to go to your heaven, you get a better soul, life is a dream anyway, and i get to experience some great sense of triumph and validation of my world views when the lion wins. so... go greater good!'

@daviddeida

3 жыл бұрын

Acceptance of suffering I would say is a very good place to begin.In fact more accurate,the acceptance of pain does not prolong suffering.

@Cecilia-ky3uw

3 жыл бұрын

i believe most vegans should take the position of anti natalism and possibly advocate for warming the planet instead of saving it but anyways i agree that what he said was from an extremely privileged position and i say that myself being relatively privileged in a relatively high income family from indonesia anyways many traumatic events the starvation and disease in africa the chaotic wars in africa and bloody coups then there is the middle east a place better than africa only by a small margin but they got it a bit better since while israel isnt perfect by any means at least it is a more or less stable democracy and more or less managed to uphold human rights except in the case of palestine which both of them h8 each other what do you expect anyways other than that authoritarian regimes blasphemy laws and banning of apostasy as well as isis and some other groups i dont even know of cause worse situations there then there is south america a weird case which I dont know how to describe at all about asia it is doing relatively fine if you exclude taiwan could be invaded any time japan and south korea h8 each other for god's sake and north korea has nukes not to mention blasphemy laws in south asia 4 literal monarchies in south east asia (brunei, thailand, yogyakarta, and possibly malaysia) then mr india the weird case because hindus hate muslims and vice versa and yet they somehow remain intact all the while pakistan hates on india and bangladesh has a lot of poverty

Hey, this isn't about the video (I came from another) but I just wanted to thank you for all the content you put on KZread and for all the patience you have when dealing with people in debates. Since stumbling upon your channel a while back I've become a bit of a skeptic myself. I hope your channel continues to grow so more people think about these sorts of things!

I wouldn’t say suffering happens any time you’re upset. Crying because you don’t get to play on the roof, have a new toy or exercise isn’t suffering it’s discomfort or sadness that is short lived. Suffering is worse, it would be: an illness or injury that causes pain, starvation, abuse, mental health issues and a long list of other possibilities.

both speakers made clear and convincing arguments for atheism

@w3bz36

3 жыл бұрын

havahahh

@letswatchutube5132

3 жыл бұрын

Haha

@PiousParable

2 жыл бұрын

HAHAHAHAHAHAA

@noah8236

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for this beautiful comment. I had a good laugh! :D

@AlessandroFranchi

2 жыл бұрын

Lol! What a silly comment

I don't know anyone who is this good at debating as alex.

@matthewontherocks

4 жыл бұрын

It really makes me think in most of his videos he actually just turns the camera on and decides what he wants to discuss at that moment

@Sam_on_YouTube

4 жыл бұрын

I know plenty of good debaters. Alex is good, but not any better than most people who have both practice and talent.

@delavega4706

4 жыл бұрын

Alex debated, discussed to Dr. Josh Rasmussen, Liz Jackson and Jonathan McLatchie. So did Tom Jump (TJump). Draw your own conclusions . On TJump`s channel. Dr. Josh Rasmussen vs TJump, Is There No Evidence for God's Existence? 7 mar. 2019 Dr. Josh Rasmussen (Philosophy), Convo on Epistemology and Religion 9 abr. 2020 Liz Jackson, Pascal's Wager a good argument? 30 mar. 2020 Does God Exist? TJump VS Jonathan McLatchie 21 jul. 2019

@JakeSusla

4 жыл бұрын

Especially at his age. Jeez it's so impressive

@theaccentedguy1505

4 жыл бұрын

I so agree

Just came here from your debate on Morality with Frank Turek. I really enjoyed it and thought you both spoke well. Really enjoying your videos!

Alex, can I just say your response to the question around the 1:40:00 mark is just incredibly eloquent, emotive and rational at the same time. It gave such a brilliant sense of simultaneous hopefulness and hopelessness about our whole state of affairs. You’re becoming an amazing debater, it reminded of Hitch at his most touching, persuasive and elegant.

"Those who are in hell are the ones who want to be there." OK, so only masochists are in hell, and it's not actually a place of judgement.

@SangoProductions213

4 жыл бұрын

Ok. That doesn't make it better...Your now saying that God tortures people who already beat themselves up over nonsense, while giving unrepentant killers of worse a free ride to heaven.

@illithidhunter6177

4 жыл бұрын

Exactly, He is showing god isn't a judge and anyone can enjoy eternal bliss in paradise. Both the Victim of rape and the rapist in heaven.

@justiceperhay8328

4 жыл бұрын

The irony is that he quotes C.S. Lewis, but C.S. Lewis didn't believe in a protestant literal hell. Even today, the majority of christians have a problem with his idea of hell.

@zacheryeckard3051

4 жыл бұрын

@D. E. So is Marxism satanic or atheist? Get your propaganda and strawmen straight, at least.

@pawelstuglik4737

4 жыл бұрын

@D. E. Hitler was not an atheist, you doofus.

I'm assuming they're talking about the Christian god, because Zeus was once considered the King of Kings too.

@othmane0313

4 жыл бұрын

You are everywhere

@legendary3952

4 жыл бұрын

Are you omnipresent

@lukadragas5966

4 жыл бұрын

I'm assuming you are an atheist with no knowledge on philosophy of religion.

@swazilandandbotswana8856

4 жыл бұрын

I mean I think a god that almost nobody worships is off the list.

@LogicAndReason2025

4 жыл бұрын

@@lukadragas5966 I'm assuming you are a troll who pretends knowledge on philosophy of religion.

When Michael Jones started talking about "living a life without suffering it's worse than triumph over suffering" I was like: bruh, you're basically saying that you would rather live on earth rather in paradise.

@washada

2 жыл бұрын

I’m down for a life without suffering.

@sharkybrickfilms5716

Жыл бұрын

he literally said that heaven has suffering

@Sapientiaa

Жыл бұрын

He’s saying that it’s a necessary step, and I believe he’s argued something similar for heaven before.

@mattr.1887

9 ай бұрын

I think some suffering or at least tension is necessary. If you never felt any pain, then you would never be motivated to do anything productive. None of this proves anything for Christianity though, imo.

CosmicSkeptic is a level headed intelligent philosopher. Fair play to him for speaking out about these issues, and also even standing up for the smaller creatures. Here, here.

The great thing about arguing on God's behalf is that apologists can assign it *any* attribute necessary to overcome *any* criticism.

@patrikgrguric535

4 жыл бұрын

This is why the start of any debate related to "God" needs to start with this question towards the religious person: "What/who is God? Define God. Thoroughly."

@surfk9836

4 жыл бұрын

"God created man in his image.....then we returned the favor". Voltaire

@BigHeretic

4 жыл бұрын

Well they try to assign any attribute necessary, let's not allow them that luxury.

@RichSFS

4 жыл бұрын

@@patrikgrguric535 Indeed. I don't understand how these people can claim to know countless number of things about this God. Everything that they claim is unknowable. These debates must start with the claims that they have about their God and then they must provide justifications for those claims. Only then can we move on to further (and perhaps more interesting questions). Furthermore, there are a billion questions that could be asked about their God for which they, again, do not have ANY answers to. Next time I come across a theist I'm going to play ignorant towards all belief and simply ask question after question just like a child would. Why is God this, why is God that? How do you know this about God? What about all these other people who make different claims about their God? And so on. I could go on forever with the number of questions I have once a God comes into the picture. Making a claim that there's a God produces far more questions that MUST have answers in order for me to believe in him. I'm more comfortable being ok with not knowing everything about the universe (yet) than invoking Gods and magic just because we do not know.

@patrikgrguric535

4 жыл бұрын

@@RichSFS Until this issue is resolved, it's completely understandable to simply ignore them, or do what you said, act like a child. I prefer to show them the bs, but that's just me.

Finally an atheist who includes the notion of animal suffering in the whole Dialogue. It brings up so many additional issues and interesting points to think about. Thanks for the great debate!

@lollerskatez1

4 жыл бұрын

@Michael David Dixon If I can overpower you, are you then made to serve me Michael?

@dogsdomain8458

4 жыл бұрын

@Michael David Dixon so i guess you wouldn't mind me torturing all these puppies since their entire existence is meant to serve our own

@jwatson181

4 жыл бұрын

This has been a common aspect of the problem of evil my friend! You need to read mackeys versus of it which is genuinely considered the strongest.

@khalilfreeman7194

4 жыл бұрын

Michael David Dixon You are correct that humans are more intelligent than animals and have the ability to control them, but why do these facts make their suffering any less legitimate than ours? What evidence are you using to come to the conclusion that animals were “made to serve us?”

@mohamedyusuf5141

4 жыл бұрын

@@khalilfreeman7194 The reason for their suffering and the circumstances of it. Slaughtering them for consumption in a human way wouldn't be immoral 🤷‍♂️

The whole Christian argument relies on all that horrible pointless suffering is totally worth it because of a Heaven which I can't prove. If you buy that argument you are a Christian if you don't you are not.

@goodluckgorsky3413

3 жыл бұрын

It’s called Superstitio, belief in an unprovable phenomenon that hurts one’s physical existence

@myrhh2260

3 жыл бұрын

Guess it’s still a better alternative to thinking all the suffering you endure in this life was totally meaningless and will never meet any justices in the end

@giantopinionsports6119

3 жыл бұрын

@@myrhh2260 you can create your own meaning. Family and friends or bettering lives of living creatures. You don't need an invisible master.

@brandonallen2369

3 жыл бұрын

@@myrhh2260 I don't think that burning an imperfect being you created for a finite crime infinitely is a better alternative , not would I want to follow a being that thinks that's hunky dory . That god is a dick .

@jarroddavid8352

Жыл бұрын

Can you prove evolution? Big bang theory? Relativity? You don’t understand how things work if you’re using the word “prove.”

"i want suffering in the world because otherwise it would br boring" basically what micheal is saying here. its outragous

@mikeygarcia8271

2 жыл бұрын

You know what is the difference between God and------ the false gods in Hinduism and other polytheistic religions? Jesus Himself shed His own blood, became a sacrifical lamb for all of us sinners that we may have life! Compared that to false gods in Hindusim and other polytheistic religions whose false gods required human sacrifices among their subjects to satisfy their evil and capricious demands for human blood!

@adswers6900

2 жыл бұрын

@@mikeygarcia8271 you dont know anything about other religions and claim wrong bigoted hypocritical statements about them. read the bible, your "god" took many sacrifices which he demanded, also had no problem to wipeout the whole humanity atleast twice, because he didnt liked how humanity turned out... so much for your "freedom of will"

@mikeygarcia8271

2 жыл бұрын

@@adswers6900 Bigoted, hypocritical statements? Im sorry but I think you are not aware about the history of hinduism and other polytheistic religions..you might want to do a bit of research about them (no pun intended) 2nd, Wiped out all humanity?? First, you can't consider that "humanity" because people then were no longer humans, they were already behaving like demons.He wiped them all out except for Noah and his family because that "humanity" you were referring to were already possessed by evil that they ceased behaving like humans . God has always been very patient with us, it is when the sin of mankind reaches its full measure that He executes judgement. Remember, He is a just and a holy God and it is in His nature to impose punishment on anyone who commits evil. What you may have forgotten is that though God is a God of love and mercy, He is also a God of justice. Remember David? He loves David but David was never spared of punishment when he sinned againts God by orchestrating the death of one of his loyal soldiers so he could have his wife, Bathesheba. David never intended to kill him in the beginning but when he got his wife pregnant he had to devise a way to take himself out of a shameful situation...and God punished David severely for what he did.

@adswers6900

2 жыл бұрын

@@mikeygarcia8271 nobody cares about your whatboutism

@mikeygarcia8271

2 жыл бұрын

@@adswers6900 not "nobody" Those who belong to God will care about it.

I love how Michael uses fantasy stories (LOTR, Narnia, Inception) to illustrate his worldview. It’s fitting.

@Pllayer064

3 жыл бұрын

🤔🤔🤔🤔

@potatoxgaming9466

3 жыл бұрын

WELL Jesus use parable to describe heavenly things using earthly things.

@potatoxgaming9466

3 жыл бұрын

@DragonSpirit9000 LOL if it's fake then why are we suffering?

@potatoxgaming9466

3 жыл бұрын

@DragonSpirit9000 This world is wicked and temporary. GOD's grace and mercy let us live for opportunity to be saved.

@potatoxgaming9466

3 жыл бұрын

​@DragonSpirit9000 Sometimes atheist forgets that this world is temporary. That everything in it will be destroyed by GOD in the future due to being so wicked . The ETERNAL WORLD BEATS ALL the suffering we experienced today. It's true that this world is slowly dying. GOD wants it to be slowly dying so that many will have a opportunity to be saved. We Christians know that believers in CHRIST will be hated BY ALL NATIONS in the future and will be persecuted as it said in the holy book.

Holy crap that whole opening with him saying that all suffering by children on Earth means nothing because it will all be swept away when they go to heaven was one of the most offencive things I've ever heard in my freaking life. I know a dozen people that I wish I could pump their childhood memories into your head and then you can tell me that you are the one who's the standard for what's too much because you cried over a toy when you were a little kid and you don't remember that anymore. I'd like you to introduce you to Fraulein fritzl who spent 20 years being raped by her father and giving birth to her own brothers and sisters.cuz it doesn't matter now right cuz one day she'll probably go to heaven and everything will be a okay so it doesn't matter she was raped by her father for two bloody decades! That was absolutely disgusting!

@whatwecalllife7034

4 жыл бұрын

To make it even worse, wouldn't they remember the trauma that happened in Heaven? How would their suffering be abated in Heaven? Does Yahweh do a MiB memory wipe or something?

@Redhunteur2

4 жыл бұрын

@@whatwecalllife7034 exactly! And if he did wipe your memory then that would mean that you didn't care anymore about the people that you used to care for that are now suffering in hell for all eternity. Would you look down on them and recognized that it was them and just feel nothing? If you had all your memories erased, you wouldn't be the same person anymore so who the hell is the person that supposed to be you who's up in heaven?

@Redhunteur2

4 жыл бұрын

@@whatwecalllife7034 and is there free will in heaven? Because I hear Christians all the time say that would make you a robot, that would take away your free will, God doesn't want you to be an automaton etc. well, what the hell was Paradise supposed to be in the garden of Eden? That was at the beginning of time, and at the end of time, we're supposed to go to heaven which is supposed to be a place of perfection where there is no sin and there's no evil. So clearly God can and has made a place where there is no evil but for some reason he had to create a place that was perfect and then blame us for fucking it up and then give us a fucked-up place to live in for the majority of time and then it some undisclosed future date we're supposed to rise from our fucken Graves and then live in heaven without sin and evil again. Why the fuk wasn't that just a default from the beginning? What was the point of all this in-between bullshit of torture and horror and rape and Holocausts? hey, look at me! I take away the Holocaust, cancer, and starvation, and I made a better world a million times over than your God did!

@whatwecalllife7034

4 жыл бұрын

@@Redhunteur2 Preaching to the choir lol. Try telling this to these deeply entrenched Christians and the trolling Christians as well.

@Redhunteur2

4 жыл бұрын

@@whatwecalllife7034 Unfortunately I know exactly what that's like, I deal with these idiots every fucking day. I know that for me it took a lot of people throwing things in my face and ridiculing me until I went out of my way to try to prove them wrong before I finally came to the light as it were, so I don't give up; I wish there were more people like me now speaking out against this nonsense back when I was going through my change. I think there's hope but goddamn some days it feels fucking tiring. I appreciate the kind words, brother. Keep fighting the good fight. Peace.

Great job, as always, Cosmic Skeptic! Love your channel! He wasn't a worthy opponent, but are there any!

Haven't even started the video yet but I'm gonna go ahead and click "like" right now because I'm certain this will be a good one!

"We have to have hunger because it tells us when to eat." Why is a world where both hunger and eating are necessary, better than one where _neither_ is necessary?

@JMUDoc

4 жыл бұрын

@Taha Hagar *What makes u think a world like this is desireable??* Well, this is answering a question with a question, but I think it's desirable because I find it desirable.

@JMUDoc

4 жыл бұрын

@Taha Hagar Why is it necessary to experience good? Why not have a world with neither?

@JMUDoc

4 жыл бұрын

@Taha Hagar I would.

@poppopN

4 жыл бұрын

@Taha Hagar you can actually experience good without evil just like you can experience happiness without sadness..the opossite is also true...if you never experienced evil you might not have appreciated good behaviour as much but you would still experience it

@poppopN

4 жыл бұрын

@Taha Hagar first of allphysical orientation is not the same thing is emotions and other social constructs like the idea of good and evil...You can be happy in a world where sadness doesnt exist...if for instance we alter our brains biochemistry(lets boost our dopamine and keep it up at all times,which is not that simple but bear with me)then everybody will be happy regardless of their enviroment, geopolitical and socioeconomic status...this would lead to the creation of a world were being sad is impossible because of our biochemicaly altered brains...you would however be happy without knowing ever sadness as a feeling

I've read this somewhere. "THINK OF ALL THE THINGS YOU'D DO IF YOU'RE GOD, AND CONTEMPLATE THAT YOU'RE WORSHIPING ONE THAT HASN'T"

@keiranleonard1301

4 жыл бұрын

The thing is.... you are God!!

@fisharepeopletoo9653

4 жыл бұрын

@Trolltician Its pretty logical. For instance, if I were God I might make a better book, maybe in such a way that it isn't forced to be translated over and over, and probably at the time with the most humans instead of the least, and at a time when the world is connected electronically so the word can spread world-wide without bloodshed. But the all knowing god couldn't even figure this out?

@fisharepeopletoo9653

4 жыл бұрын

@@keiranleonard1301 Its so true. We are all zeus, and zeus is all of us.

@stylis666

4 жыл бұрын

@@keiranleonard1301 I am infinitely better than any and all gods. You see, I replied to your comment. That may not have much of an impact, but it's infinitely more than any god has ever done.

@robertaylor9218

4 жыл бұрын

Setekh lol.

Alex's answer about suicide was truly moving and inspiring. I agree with him completely, with heavy emphasis on that the answer is almost always "no," but not by default. Great discussion. One of the best atheist/christian debates I've ever seen. Michael is incredibly smart and well-equipped for this and made some surprisingly good points.

Michael: "I'm not omniscient..." "There will be animals in Heaven."

@randominterestingvideos4733

2 жыл бұрын

I think he said it based on the bible. The bible makes it clear that there are animals in heaven. For instance, look at the story of Elijah going to heaven on a chariot from heaven. Those horses were animals from heaven

@kingo8914

3 ай бұрын

@@randominterestingvideos4733 Imagine being a horse and dying and then just living the rest of eternity as a chariot for some human

So wait a second, people who sinned all their lives on earth are suddenly incapable of sin in heaven even though they have free will? That doesn't even begin to hold water.

@nitehawk86

4 жыл бұрын

I'd like to see 2 Christians debate "is there free will in heaven".

@haleybean75

4 жыл бұрын

As I understand it, referencing Isaiah 11, all will have the knowledge of God in heaven. That’s why we will not harm or destroy, we will no longer eat animals and animals will live in harmony. The wolf will live with the lamb and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

@haleybean75

4 жыл бұрын

Although then I struggle with this - why was it not okay for Adam and Eve to have this sort of knowledge in Eden? I’m a Christian, but I’ve got a lot of questions myself and therefore appreciate these types of debates.

@cherrypi398

4 жыл бұрын

@@reubzdubz Then why couldn't he have created Adam and Eve that way-not having the desire to sin? If it works up there shouldn't it work down here? And what about Lucifer(Satan)? He was up there hugging God's throne and washing his feet for a trillion years and yet he was discontent with heaven.Are we to believe that he was so stupid that even after being up there close to center of the matrix and seeing God in his awesomeness and never ending power that he would think,"I know I can deck this guy?"

@JenniB123

4 жыл бұрын

@@haleybean75 So God is going to completely reconfigure the lion's digestive system, in which case, it won't be a lion!

Painful or traumatic events don’t lead to problems in adulthood? Decades of research on attachment, trauma, and mental illness would beg to differ. Has this guy never read a single thing about psychology and psychological disorders? Every time I give the theist a chance by listening to their arguments I hear something as obscenely wrong and ignorant as this claim.

@veganatheistandmore

3 жыл бұрын

Christians seem to be used to pulling shit out of their ass because they think they are exempt from having to provide evidence. Since it has worked in the past, they think it still works now.... don't think so.

@adrenochrome_slurper

3 жыл бұрын

Well he's a Christian apologist now, so there's that.

@beneven-kesef5121

3 жыл бұрын

I dont think this is what he was trying to say. I think, though I may be giving too much credit, is that it doesn't always lead to that.

@nicbongo

3 жыл бұрын

They only need one book... And it's conflicting passages 🤦

@Sierra-cl9xr

3 жыл бұрын

This guy obviously had a privileged childhood. No one with childhood traumas would agree with his sentiments in that point

Alex is such a deep and quick thinking person. He immidiately recognises problems within a soup of garble and can question and break them down concise. I sometimes feel you're being too wise in that you're too humble, which is a good trait ofcourse, but when confronted with so much absolute and utter nonsense than nuance just get's lost in a sea of untruths.

This channel has gotten substantially better over the last year with regards to the philosophical arguments.

It is extremely dangerous to claim that most or all evil allowed by God is to bring about a greater good. This implies that it's ultimately better that such evil occurs, which is essentially arguing against any opposition to suffering in the world. Any time we donate to charity or protest oppression or intervene to stop any cruel act, we are operating under the assumption that the suffering isn't going to ultimately bring about a greater good.

@azap12

4 жыл бұрын

Not only is that there is no such as a just world.

@Z4r4sz

4 жыл бұрын

It would mean that repeating the same evil would be beneficial which means humans couldnt learn from any former evil action and this god is incapable of creating humans that could learn from any evil action. But in the end it doesnt matter for anyone who subscribes to the religion anyway because everything will be forgiven and learning isnt necessary.

@tropicalnofruit1419

4 жыл бұрын

Leo Behe simply paradoxical

@marcdecock7946

4 жыл бұрын

If religious leaders discover that people are more likely to believe when they are poor, uneducated and beaten into obedience, they have a motivation to strive for such a situation. It annoys them a lot that Finland has such a high rate of prosperity, education, kindness and atheism.

@Z4r4sz

4 жыл бұрын

@@marcdecock7946 Isnt that what we see in the middle east, afrika and america because most people are poor and the education system barely functional?

Whew, this IP guy must be burning some serious calories with the intellectual gymnastics he's doing.

@chrisschall8492

3 жыл бұрын

Look out Keto and Atkins-the IP diet is a new one on the scene LOL

@MrGodofcar

3 жыл бұрын

LOL

@Certaintyexists888

3 жыл бұрын

How would you know if you were suppressing your knowledge of God?

Genetically Modified Skeptic, Rationality Rules, Holy Koolaid, and Cosmic Skeptic = the 4 horsemen of my generation. ✊

U both are awsome a very nice debate I watch both of u r video and love it

God is that plumber that comes into your house and destroys your toilet, just so you can thank him for fixing it

@stylis666

4 жыл бұрын

You overestimate God's power. He's the kind of being that has people come to your house to gaslight you into thinking that your toilet is a vile shithole that deserves utter destruction but you can thank God for its blessings and grace so that your shitbucket won't be destroyed or make your life miserable and if you don't thank and worship him for it he'll send more people to threaten you that when you're dead you'll be in a shithole forever, without the "help" and "love" of that god and whatever the fuck blessings and grace are supposed to do. I assume it's doing exactly nothing, just like everything godly. But hey, if it does nothing it at least doesn't encourage divine vengeance on people who turned their back on the gaslighting manipulative maniac or wish death or reconsideration to grovel for the invisible, impotent narcissist for those who love each other and show that physically in an adult, enthusiastically consensual manner. Evidently the actions of its worshipers are infinitely more effective than that of the god itself and I can't say I'm too happy with the result. I rather have them be as inane as their useless god is.

@poplionandrew5803

4 жыл бұрын

Thank for giving God a chance to show and tell.

@sodalitia

4 жыл бұрын

Yes. He is an Italian plumer and loves jumping on mushrooms.

@artistryartistry7239

4 жыл бұрын

More accurately, the plumber has provided your soul the opportunity to develop into a more "interesting" one by destroying your toilet.

@sodalitia

4 жыл бұрын

@@artistryartistry7239 Is that why Pope shits in the woods?

IP says that a world without problems, pain, or suffering is like a world of Stepford Wives, and that it would be a dystopian horror. Does that make Heaven a dystopian horror?

@doctorofhorrors239

4 жыл бұрын

The position of the theist here in this debate is that evil could still exists in heaven.

@Swash74

4 жыл бұрын

Well, I guess he has to say that, otherwise his argument will come back to bite him. I've never heard from any other Christian that evil could exist in post "rapture" heaven. I do understand that at some point evil must have existed there, or God would not have had to kick out Lucifer. So, maybe he has a point, though it's strange to think evil can exist there in God's presence. Does that mean Heaven isn't an eternal guarantee? Can sin exist in heaven? The wages of sin are death. Can people die in heaven? If so, do they go to a super afterlife? So many questions...

@doctorofhorrors239

4 жыл бұрын

Yes unlimited paradox, and yet with no verifiable evidence

@Pllayer064

3 жыл бұрын

@@doctorofhorrors239 wym? mah old book!

@hd-mot

3 жыл бұрын

@@doctorofhorrors239 I was surprised to hear him make the argument that evil exists in Heaven, but I don't think he's wrong since obviously, angels had a choice in Heaven. The end result of having the choice to do evil for all eternity means everyone will eventually end up in hell. How do you manage to not do evil for all eternity? And all it took for Adam and Eve to get booted from the garden was eat a piece of fruit while not having the knowledge of good and evil and likely not even knowing what "death" means.

Good video. Great discussion.

Alex's answer to the scuicide question was great, Michael's basically said exactly what Alex said not to say

@mattt.4395

2 жыл бұрын

what is "scuicide"?

@chickenpiie5028

Жыл бұрын

@@mattt.4395 suicide

** As I am listening to this discussion, I am ever more convinced that I am an atheist and vegan fighting for animal rights. ** But a comment I wanted to make about evil existing because it allows you to achieve some kin of greater good ... 13 years ago I lost my father to cancer and even tho it has made me even closer to my mom and my sister, I have stronger friendships (because of two very close friends have gone through the same tragedy), I would prefer that my dad was alive a million times over than him getting cancer and dying.

@emarskineel

4 жыл бұрын

@Trolltician how so?

@mariaangelova8275

4 жыл бұрын

@Trolltician No one is equating the coronavirus with humans. That makes no sense at all.

@emarskineel

4 жыл бұрын

@Trolltician is there some branch of extreme veganism that demands carnivorous animals go vegan? How would humans eating plants exclusively equate to depriving carnivores of their prey? I don't think anyone is calling for anything you suggested. Am I missing something?

@dhisufiroafrozenseraphimdragon

4 жыл бұрын

@@emarskineel Basically, why is it wrong for humans to eat animals but animals can eat other animals?

@emarskineel

4 жыл бұрын

@Trolltician Either I'm too stupid to follow your logic or your logic is too stupid to follow. Of course humans are above animals intellectually. You can't reason with an animal and convince it to stop eating meat. From what I understand, vegans are all about minimizing the suffering we cause animals. We can survive without torturing and eating animals, evidence shows it's actually a much healthier way to live. So by eating plants exclusively, you greatly decrease unnecessary animal suffering. I'm really struggling to understand what you're arguing exactly. Animals can't be reasoned with...vegans aren't in the woods trying to convert wolves into vegan wolves lmao...it's all about minimizing our(human, not animal) contribution to animal suffering. It really isn't that complicated. From what I can tell your argument is what they call a strawman, and a nonsensical one at that.

Alex is unbelievably smart and articulate. He has the vocab of Hitch and the philosophical skill of Arif Ahmed (AKA The LogicBot) Alex, you're an absolute gem. Darwin bless you.

@levi5073

4 жыл бұрын

​@Trolltician Wanna debate, bitch?

@mazuzu3880

4 жыл бұрын

Arif ahmed is on another level in my opinion but Alex is way up there too amongst the most articulate and intelligent speakers of modern day

@papinbala

4 жыл бұрын

lol wow

@lloydchristmas4547

4 жыл бұрын

@Trolltician

@papinbala

4 жыл бұрын

@@lloydchristmas4547 how is it a theist alert? He is praising Alex so most likely his position is anti theist. i think you meant atheist alert. or maybe you just dont know what your talking about and totally lost.

Liked your explanation on this subjectAlex.

Hoooo boy I knew this was gonna be work to watch based on just the first opening statement.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster realises we're liable to make mistakes as he made us whilst drunk. However, the "I'd rather you didn'ts" layout a perfect system of morality to live by. R'amen.

@thierry2720

4 жыл бұрын

@John Smith I'd love to see a game or a movie based on that franchise, the names sound so cool to my inner 13 yo!

@swazilandandbotswana8856

4 жыл бұрын

Thierry get out of here you stupid blm supporter

@thierry2720

4 жыл бұрын

@@swazilandandbotswana8856 ??!! WTF ??!! You made me laugh, well done, that earned you a response! (but don't expect too much!)

@simpdestroyer5137

4 жыл бұрын

R'amen

@CarnevalOne

4 жыл бұрын

Your understanding of religion is profound. Because evolution.

You are my inspiration. I want to be like you when I’m older.

My sister had cancer and survived. I think she is amazing. I thought she was amazing before she had cancer. I would prefer that she never experienced it. Where is the justification for the suffering she endured? There isn't any.

48:29 We CAN idolise people who haven't suffered greatly. Artists for example. We can praise Shakespeare for contributions to literature because they bring pleasure, not becuase they reduced suffering. Beethoven wasn't a more virtuous person than Haydn just because he overcame the immense suffering caused by his deafness.

@alexanderofrhodes9622

3 жыл бұрын

There can be a scale of pleasure, without the latter half of that scale being suffering. Greater and lesser pleasures can be delineated without a reference to suffering

The funny thing about the Lord of the Rings is that the heroes fail. There is no “law of triumph.” The point is that even the most virtuous person can not withstand the corruption of power, but evil does destroy itself by accident. Evil isn’t defeated because the heroes can become moral paragons, but because evil is self-destructive.

@daviddeida

3 жыл бұрын

Yes,the author was a Christian.Thats very wise btw

@ina7084

3 жыл бұрын

Beautifully said. Now I have to rewatch

I definitely remember suffering from my childhood!

@bearbro10

5 ай бұрын

Well that was cause of the devil not god

This is soo underrated!

Look ! Someone decent enough to give you the debate to post it on your channel without silly demands. Unlike IERA and Mohammed Hijab.

@xxgmehhhejkdkkjjfctsxxsjjj5194

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah I love honesty

@stylis666

4 жыл бұрын

@@xxgmehhhejkdkkjjfctsxxsjjj5194 ROFL XD Cameron - honesty Obviously, you don't know the man. Intellectual dishonesty is what his channel is built on and maintained with. Any decency from his side is pretense to manipulate and hold over your head as leverage and a threat and I'm not sure if he learned that from the bible or if he is a sociopath and just uses the bible as a cover, but the result is exactly the same.

@xxgmehhhejkdkkjjfctsxxsjjj5194

4 жыл бұрын

@Trolltician "Athetard"

@ElectricQualia

3 жыл бұрын

Hijab is a joke, who should wear hijab.

What the hell is Inspiring Philosophy smoking?!

@macguffinmuffin1156

4 жыл бұрын

It's so powerful it makes even my skin crawl hearing him saying what he says in this video.

@bjrnarbjrnarsson5845

4 жыл бұрын

Incense?

@augusto7886

3 жыл бұрын

DMT rolled with papers from a bible

@noobslayeru

3 жыл бұрын

@@augusto7886 lmao was about to comment that

Great debate with high academic and professional performance. Alex as always great debator👍

Excellent discussion. If we removed suffering wouldnt we really only shift our ideas of what suffering is? Suffering is subjective. Each person has their own idea of what it is to suffer.

Ah yes, my husband beats me because he loves me

@Dom_theskeptic

4 жыл бұрын

Lol good one

@Applefreak52

4 жыл бұрын

He is soul building you /s

@poppopN

4 жыл бұрын

"LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO"

@Hscaper

4 жыл бұрын

He beats me, too ;)

@mystery6411

4 жыл бұрын

Strawman

"I got over my childhood abuse, so childhood abuse is no big deal." *What the actual fuck?*

I just see these as exercises in how far religious apologists can go. They have usually 1-5 main texts it's all based off (Because anything they, themselves rationalize isn't the "word of god". [So why bother?]) VS. the slowly ever-expanding horizons of what we understand. The thing is they sometimes bring up some gold nuggets of rationality and philosophy. It pushes it forward, so I say keep the debates coming!

When IP described the "dystopia" of a world with no suffering, I actually thought "Sounds good, I'd like to live there."

@TaeyxBlack

10 ай бұрын

my thought was that it sounds like the heaven they’re working so hard to get to. it’s mind-boggling how heaven is supposed to be this perfect, always good experience, but if we were to experience that on earth, it’d be terrible

@avivastudios2311

9 ай бұрын

​@@TaeyxBlackThe idea is that we must face trials that build character before we go to heaven. I think that's what he's getting at.

@johndoesstuff352

9 ай бұрын

@@TaeyxBlack how would u know what a good experience is if u never were free to choose

@SupachargedGaming

8 ай бұрын

In defence of "IP" he doesn't seem to have the same opinion of heaven and hell. From his description, to me at least, Hell sounds more akin to the typically described "Perfect Heaven". Heaven, from his description, "has suffering. Has war. Has free will." whereas hell is "locked from the inside, yet nobody ever leaves." almost as if they have no reason to leave. From his description, "They cannot bear the suffering of heaven" -shrug- it's amazing the places people will go to defend their beliefs. They will abandon everything they hold dear about their beliefs in order to justify their beliefs, and then use that justification to justify that which they have abandoned.@@TaeyxBlack

@TaeyxBlack

8 ай бұрын

@@SupachargedGaming by my estimation, IP’s beliefs are christian only in name. the things he believes would have made christian-me raise several eyebrows. it’s like he took parts of mormonism, catholicism, and various cs lewis novels to try to plug the logical holes in vanilla christianity but ended up creating some unrecognizable chimera that your average christian would call blasphemy

This is so absurd. IP says that if the world was all pleasure and no suffering then we would not develop correctly as human beings. Why does that matter in this case? There would be no suffering anyway. Everything would be totally fine.

@jorgewinner4116

4 жыл бұрын

Your point is absurd. pleasure and suffering are part of the experiene of living.

@sasilik

4 жыл бұрын

@@jorgewinner4116 that is just usual trope. Have you any actual evidence for that?

@FleyDragon

4 жыл бұрын

@@jorgewinner4116 I don't know what your point is. I know our world works that way.

@anandsuralkar2947

4 жыл бұрын

@@jorgewinner4116 no its not...no one want suffering

@anandsuralkar2947

4 жыл бұрын

@@jorgewinner4116 do u want suffering???

Frank Turek 2009: let's call it evil. Where does evil come from? Christopher Hitchens: religion.

@poplionandrew5803

4 жыл бұрын

Evil comes from Sociology of Religion, not religion.

@stylis666

4 жыл бұрын

@@poplionandrew5803 Your mom.

@poplionandrew5803

4 жыл бұрын

@@stylis666 How do you know What you know?

@LoaThunder

4 жыл бұрын

According to your own logic then, evil comes from humans. Because religion came from humans. Also, Htichens in that debate completely misunderstood the moral argument as Alex also recognized.

@jamesdettmann94

4 жыл бұрын

@@LoaThunder yes evil does come from humans and it holds less moral weight than people assume it's simply making wrong decisions and brainwashing people which results in potentially violent acts and an unequal society which could be defined as evil or simply wrong

You know someone is a Christian when they say that giving a homeless person a dollar is a bad thing. He captured his essence perfectly there.

@mattr.1887

9 ай бұрын

I'm not Christian, and I don't give homeless people money.

@dimitris_zaha

8 ай бұрын

You know someone is an atheist when they completely miss/ignore the whole point

Love how Inspiring Philosophy redefines everything so that he & Cosmic Skeptic canny agree on the premise.

Watched the whole thing when it was first uploaded and subscribed to his and IP's channel because it was just great. Thank you for all the great discussions ✌

To Answer the Lord of The Rings question, we like suffering in literature because we suffer in reality. It's more realistic

@daniel9973

4 жыл бұрын

I don't think that fully grasps it

@socrates4509

4 жыл бұрын

@@daniel9973 How so? We don't like reading about a man with no troubles or problems because our lives are troubled and problematic.

@daniel9973

4 жыл бұрын

@@socrates4509 When you watch someone make a foolish mistake and fall down, it triggers dopamine in the brain and you laugh. We are interested in learning from the mistakes of others. It's less about realism and more about trying to map danger and resolve danger virtually. If you can learn it through a 3rd party, then you won't die and that is an evolutionary bonus. Therefore evolution rewards those who like books based on overcoming trials.

@daniel9973

4 жыл бұрын

Woman, historically are the last to face danger, so they get less of an evolutionary bonus from action novels. But women need to solve romantic problems if they want to maintain resources and protection for their kids. Hence, evolution motivates women to read romance novels.

@goodnightmyprince6734

4 жыл бұрын

@@daniel9973 I must bo broken then, mate

Loved the debate, I learned a lot ,especially the part about science exist to solve the problem of ignorance. If there were no ignorance there would be no need for science, also the example of example. keep it up !

Nice format

55:00 "Saying we can't understand suffering without Jesus is like saying we can't understand cancer without chemotherapy." Savagely brilliant!

Believers begin from the point of being in a world where there is a loving, heavenly father who is the very definition of goodness and then go about conjuring up scenarios that justify all the suffering in the world. But starting from a point without theological suppositions, it would be unlikely to arrive at that conclusion. Michael seems to be desperately trying to excuse the horrors of existence on Earth, as Alex suggested, because the existence of this god is not in question. Michael's arguments do not ring true.

@phileas007

4 жыл бұрын

yup - that's what we call apologetics :)

@carlosz.5460

3 жыл бұрын

You mean, because it almost seems like you forget we are living in this world already, that all this suffering and evil exists and you can’t ever do something about it because you’ll die one day and be forgotten forever and your dust of this world with all your memories will disappear forever. Let this be the case, you choose the true pain of this world and deny the love of God because of your pity subjective anger. You live in a miserable world, there will never be enough you could do to end all suffering, diseases, murder, disorder, chaos, natural disaster. You may try, but the work will never be completed, you fail to understand that truly in your world view there is absolutely no point in even trying, why waste another second in this world then? The devil deceived you my friend, you’ve been deceived to hate God and love yourself, you have been deceived to follow darkness over the light. Humble yourself and try to understand the love of God, I know it’s hard but I believe through prayer and the fire of the Holy Spirit you can learn to understand

@NoelRayland

3 жыл бұрын

@@carlosz.5460 What kind of father will watch his children suffer when he has the power to help them?

@carlosz.5460

3 жыл бұрын

You make a good point yet you failed to realize he already has and always has been helping, he gave us his one and only son so that we may not perish but have ever lasting life. Jesus Christ is a gift from God you deny and get mad at God when you don’t get what you want! Gods love is more powerful than our suffering, we fail realize it. We deny his love because of our arrogance

@carlosz.5460

3 жыл бұрын

Noel Rayland God is real, this is why you’re mad at the world and mad at him, but I promise if you seek Gods wisdom you will find it and you will have peace. The devil wants you convinced he isn’t real, he wants you to perish without Jesus and wants you to believe God is evil.

Always reminds me of the phrase, “there is no hate like Christian love”.

@marvelousmedes

Жыл бұрын

About as smart as saying "If climate change is a problem, then why don't people on the coasts just sell their houses and move further inland."

It would be nice a podcast with IP in the style of the one you did with WLC, to be fair it would be nice to have conversations like that in general.

Whenever I hear the term "debate" used for an apologist's arguments, I know what it really means is excuse layering.

@daddyleon

4 жыл бұрын

Are those excuses always fallacies?

@myothersoul1953

4 жыл бұрын

@@daddyleon Not all are fallacies, some are fantasies, extra premises that have to be added to make the argument work.

@daddyleon

4 жыл бұрын

@@myothersoul1953 but those can just as well be fallacies too, couldn't they?

@myothersoul1953

4 жыл бұрын

@@daddyleon Many are fallacies but that's not the only problem an argument can have.

@rebanx1

4 жыл бұрын

Exactly.....every aspect of every religion rests entirely on the need for faith-(belief without evidence, intending to nullify critical thought via indoctrination). 'Apologetics' is a fitting word for the desperate and slippery arguments now required to actually defend 'faith' in an unseen,unprovable,invisible ,supernatural sky man (that some fellow primates claim to know the mind of). It is a position that has already been debunked, purely by the observation of the thousands of contradictory religions ( and fractions of religions all disagreeing with each other) throughout the world,.... add to that the many 'killer' scientific facts about reality we are now aware of, basically rendering all superstitious /religious claims and notions obsolete in the last few hundred years

I thoroughly enjoyed this exchange.

Love, Alex, would love to have a chat with him in the near future.

Did anyone else kind of imagine the referee from Mortal Kombat saying: "finish him!" at the end of Alex's first statement segment!? Great piece of argumentation there!

Its actually really nice having timers in the top right lol.

It makes absolutely no sense. He's basically saying that anything that happens, no matter how horrible, is ultimately good, or at least necessary, as it creates opportunities for virtue. Taken to its logical conclusion, there is no evil or suffering so great that man should be spared from it -- from an all loving god -- lest mankind be robbed the "opportunity" to benefit from it. I mean it's basically an absurd argument that's conveniently able to explain away any and all human suffering by ultimately redefining evil essentially AS a good thing: from good things do good things come. As an added bonus, he gets to claim that the balance sheet is settled after death in heaven, and conveniently of course, no one has any damned clue what happens after we die, but he gets to assert the only scenario that undergirds his argument.

@onesquirrel2713

4 жыл бұрын

The first thing that came to my mind when his thing about the "triumph of virtue" where he claims that no matter how much suffering something causes it will always be offset by god in the end and lead to an even greater amount of good. If that was the case, it would be morally more virtuous to kill 10 people instead of saving the lifes of 10 people. In the former case, god will take care that the overall good is greater than if those 10 people had not been killed, maybe as if 11, 100 or 1000 lifes had been saved. In the latter case, the overall amount of good is just the amount that is avoided by not killing 10 people.

@mohamedyusuf5141

4 жыл бұрын

Fair enough but what else were you expecting he'd say? (I disagree with him btw)

@petrolhead1523

4 жыл бұрын

If God doesn't exist, then there is ultimately no reason that people go through suffering. In the end it's all vanity, because everything just goes back into one place, the ground. However, God revealed himself to humanity through Jesus Christ, and He showed us that his will is to save everyone on this planet from what's to come.

@petrolhead1523

4 жыл бұрын

@emmy lite You did not come from nowhere.

@petrolhead1523

4 жыл бұрын

My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them. Psalms 139:15‭-‬16

Reading through the comment section makes me feel good. I wasn't the only one that making faces at the stuff Jones was saying. I am concerned that he genuinely lives life thinking that way.

@LinaGuadagnuolo63

4 ай бұрын

What does this comment even mean?

Incredibly intelligent and well-spoken young men who understand the art of conversation & debate. Polite, understanding, non-confrontational, zero condescension. Modern political leaders (esp USA) and "journalists" could learn a lot from these youngsters about how to communicate and discourse like civilized human beings. I could watch these discussions all day. Brilliant and well done, gents.

Isaiah 45 verse 7 says god creates evil.

@siraf1234

4 жыл бұрын

But why

@sobakakustovsky3909

4 жыл бұрын

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

@sobakakustovsky3909

4 жыл бұрын

Then who needs the devil with such a God?

@dreadfulspiller8766

4 жыл бұрын

@@sobakakustovsky3909 There is no devil in Judaism and also no original sin or hell.

@bromponie7330

4 жыл бұрын

No, it doesn't. The word is better translated as calamity (as most modern translations do, see NET for example). Stop choosing the weaker Bible translations (KJV) to make an argument. Please edit & correct your comment.

Question: is it "fair" (i.e. "just") that someone else's suffering is used to make *me* a better person? For example, a child's cancer and death is purported to "soul build" the parents. Also, what about suffering of beings that can't understand or be "improved" by that suffering?

@dalanology

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, it's bonkers.

@maddie7164

Жыл бұрын

Simple answer: god doesn’t exist

Would love to see you have a chat with Stephen Law!

I really liked your take on dealing with suicide/someone who is suicidal. It seems a lot more realistic and purposeful when you allow them the personal freedom to figure out whether suicide really is their best solution, while guiding and supporting them in every way to hopefully bring them to the conclusion, it isn't. I look forward to your video regarding the philosophical implications of death and suicide.

@daviddeida

3 жыл бұрын

Thats what the christians are saying.You have free will to decide.

I have experienced dreams that have stuck with me since many years. I can still feel the fear, pain and other emotions from those dreams, and I would say they have changed me in some way. So even if reality is some dreamlike state, it is having permanent effects and leaving scars on my psyche.

@daviddeida

3 жыл бұрын

Sure I dont think he is saying it to dismiss the experience..Maybe pointing to the dreamer who has not suffered in dreams when it has awoken.

@Mymle

7 ай бұрын

There is also a point to move on from suffering and find a greater meaning to life. That way you won’t contemplate on past experiences or dwell in suffering but you move on from them

Wow-- that grenade analogy is great!

This is what you call a debate among intellectuals. Amazing

What an awful world it would be if we were held accountable for the actions in our dreams.

Everyday, thousands and thousands of innocent children suffer and die because of incurable deceases. God is either imoral or incompetent.

@nathanmckenzie904

4 жыл бұрын

You forgot another I word... imaginary

@RemixedVoice

4 жыл бұрын

26000 children starve to death every day. Not joking.

@carlosz.5460

3 жыл бұрын

The problem is you fail to understand this world is only for a moment, unfortunately those children did suffer but God made it possible for them to go to heaven anyways. Of course you don’t see it that way, maybe you don’t believe in heaven or an after life, but that also means you have to accept thousands of children die and then disappear forever! How can you accept that fact? If there is no god you’re living in a world in which diseases do exist and kill thousands of children everyday and you suffer alongside others for absolutely no reason, in your eyes this world is for nothing but a moment of pleasure with immeasurable suffering. You choose to exist in a world void of love and purpose, but God doesn’t want you to. You may be angered at God, but you can’t deny the fact you have a choice. Either you stay angry at God and then die and truly suffer forever or learn to accept God and that God is love though you may not fully understand how he operates. Humble yourself brother

@mazuzu3880

3 жыл бұрын

@@carlosz.5460 your god is either incompetent or imoral, you chose.

@carlosz.5460

3 жыл бұрын

Ma zuzu no he’s neither, you fail to understand God that’s why you hate him, he loves you and wants you to have a relationship with him but the devil really has a hold of your mind, that’s why you’re even convicted to try to disprove the truth.

Let's also appreciate that Cosmic Skeptic's opening statement was all stream of conscious speaking, while his opposition's opening statement was pre-written.

@ethanm.2411

4 жыл бұрын

That's completely false. Alex's opening statement was also pre-written - just look at his eyes while he's speaking, especially at 27:00. It's just that he's a really fluent speaker.

@artistryartistry7239

4 жыл бұрын

@@ethanm.2411 You don't know what you're talking about, and you apparently don't know what "completely false means." He clearly has notes which he looks at, but he's not reading from something. There are several times, even after your time stamp where he's clearly NOT looking at anything, and is looking around as he's speaking.

@ethanm.2411

4 жыл бұрын

@@artistryartistry7239 _"He clearly has notes which he looks at, but he's not reading from something."_ Ah, I suppose his notes were written in thin air? Anyway, this point is irrelevant. My point is that Alex's opening statement was also pre-written and not "all stream of conscious speaking." I mean, it _was_ conscious, but you get what I mean. And the reason that Alex wasn't only looking at his notes was the same reason IP wasn't always looking at his notes - they probably knew the points they wanted to make and could do it without reference to their notes. And honestly, do you really think that everything Alex said just sprang forth from his head? Just listen to his opening statement - it was clearly well-planned.

@utubepunk

4 жыл бұрын

@Trolltician You called Alex dumb! GOTEM.

@utubepunk

4 жыл бұрын

Eh. It's a formal debate with time limits so both preplanned their points. Maybe Alex delivered it more fluidly, but you shouldn't value presentation over substance.

So far from all the debates i've seen on your channel this one had the best opposing party, props to Michael he did have some decent points. Most importantly that you should read/watch LOTR!!

I'm so proud of how far Alex has come!

Great job bringing animal suffering to the table in that second refutation. It is by far the greatest problem for the theist arguing against the problem of evil.

Not a benevolent God. The end. That was two hours 9 minutes and 29 seconds shorter then this debate had to be.

I think the moderator did an amazing job! Well done man, well done!

Good debate.