David’s constant nervous laugh is telling. He can’t say anything substantive that withstands scrutiny from Thiel. He basically says something, gets refuted, then backtracks and agrees with Thiel. Go ahead OP and cry about it.

@FlauFly

4 жыл бұрын

Honestly, it's normal way of speaking by David. He does better impression arguing on paper than in real life, because people usually interpret his behavioral ticks as nervousness as such things.

@l21n18

4 жыл бұрын

Telling huh? I don’t think so and talk about reading a lot of things into that

@Thomas-re9ky

3 жыл бұрын

FriedIcecreamIsAReality I think his articulation is good but his logic is bad. Very common among academics. Theil always talks like this. I don’t think he’s nervous.

@Thomas-re9ky

3 жыл бұрын

FriedIcecreamIsAReality stfu

@l21n18

3 жыл бұрын

@@Thomas-re9ky I’d say the opposite

I never heard of David until after he passed. I feel a real sense of loss for the world.

@dennyhamrick2552

3 жыл бұрын

I read Bullshit Jobs and started reading Debt a few weeks before he passed. Truly quite a loss. This next decade is going to be a bumpy ride at the very least.

@douglascampbell66

3 жыл бұрын

@@dennyhamrick2552 I hear you. I am surprised that U.S. is not in more upheaval.

@AudioPervert1

2 жыл бұрын

Amazing writer. Do read 5000 years of Debt by David Graeber

@Romogi

2 жыл бұрын

His thesis project is really great too. Toward an Anthropological Theory of Value. It was the only resource of its kind when I did a project with a friend.

@prestonblevins149

2 жыл бұрын

Me too! I just discovered him today and wish he were still here because I feel (for whatever that’s worth) he is spot on. Do you know any other philosophers along this same vein? I want to send his book to all my managers.

Thiel: "Maybe I'm secretly working for the regime or something" Graeber: "Not secretly..." LOL.

@donq2957

Жыл бұрын

Says the dude who got tenure at Princton and had it revoked because he wanted organize a grad student union.

@Treebark1313

Жыл бұрын

@@donq2957 in what way is a graduate student union "the regime"?

@donq2957

Жыл бұрын

@@Treebark1313 Its too complicated for a stupid minds. Princeton is part of regime. They work for establishment. Thats why they canned the white dude for organizing a union. Ask me one more question and Ill tell you how smart you are.

@purple-flowers

Жыл бұрын

@@donq2957 I can't believe how completely wrong this is lol. A) he was a professor at Yale B) he wasn't the organizer he just gave vocal support to a student that was the one doing the organizing C) he didn't have tenure D) the reason that the faculty voted to remove him was multifaceted and related to a lot of different things he had done or supported including his work with the global justice movement

@donq2957

Жыл бұрын

@@purple-flowers Yes

Thiel is so ultra-serious, it's a highly amusing contrast against Graeber's gleeful giggling. RIP David, you beautiful bastard.

@Elcherino123

3 жыл бұрын

A quick summary of the vid. Pretty much Peter said in the nicest most apologetic way possible. I dont care how we get there, or how many people suffer. I want to get to Mars at all cost. In contrast, David was a beautiful humanist

@tavom6710

3 жыл бұрын

@@Elcherino123 Beautiful Humanist = inconsequential human?

@gamerknown

3 жыл бұрын

@@tavom6710 Yes, I suppose so - David Graeber argued against war, for preserving the environment, for giving greater freedom to workers and in particular to women in society, for opposing racism and imperialism. Things Peter Thiel viscerally opposes and of course, Peter Thiel is winning that debate.

@danielbtwd

3 жыл бұрын

@@tavom6710 not necessarily.

@tavom6710

3 жыл бұрын

@@gamerknown I just don't understand why arguing for makes you a saint. I can argue for all sorts of things from my seat. Changing material reality is very different. Whatever your opinion you've got to acknowledge that he changed reality more than David Graeber's preening virtue ever could. in eastern mysticism one is not supposed to become involved in the world . Are you in favour of the same thing?

Infinitely more important and interesting than Zizek vs Peterson

@Graeberwave

Жыл бұрын

Agreed.

@davidp.7620

6 ай бұрын

Both are equally irrelevant. This is one hour of two men who are experts on one field automatically assuming they're experts on a totally unrelated one. These men have no clue what they're talking about and seem to ignore or dismiss the fact that some engineering challenges have an intrinsic difficulty that you won't solve through politics or management restructuring.

32:21 Graeber: "There's people out there who could probably come up with almost anything you could imagine... right now they're sitting around trying to pay off their father's debt on the rice plantation or spending all their time in a shoe factory... that's what I'm concerned with" Thiel: "All you had to do is go out the front door, and I know you'll say it's harder for all different reasons but no; all you have to do is go out the front door" How do you walk out the front door of being in debt?? lol

@Wittgenstein.

9 ай бұрын

By paying it off through the new revenue source you've acquired. There is relatively big number of low-competition non-scalable globalization-based companies you can create living in third world countires. Take the local supply chain optimization for example. Also; if you really have a good idea, which Graeber is so concerned about, you wouldn't have the problem with acquiring capital, even though you're personally in debt. I can't imagine any investment fund telling you that as a ceo/cto of a company you can't pay yourself more than average shoe factory worker. And if you can earn even as little as the average factory worker, you can pay off your debt, by the definition of the argument.

@Haysel999

8 ай бұрын

@@Wittgenstein.you completely missed the point of everything Graeber said. You’re a fucking moron my amigo.

@asherroodcreel640

8 ай бұрын

​@@Wittgenstein.I assure being a creative person and trying to get things across to non creative ones is like pulling teeth regardless if the system worked then you wouldn't be here defending it right now

@matiasramireznoguez3191

5 ай бұрын

I know a lot of people who acquired more debt doing exactly that... The new source of revenue is more debt, and so on...

@drakshal403

16 сағат бұрын

@@Wittgenstein. this comment lacks much perspective. you seem to be ignoring the concept of interest. in countries where there are few laws surrounding it and fewer actually enforced many people live in what is effectively legal slavery, the debt pit deepens faster than it can be filled and the practices of creditors are designed to achieve this. the governments in a lot of these countries are deeply corrupt and work with monopolistic or oligopolistic companies, many of which are themselves multinational western companies taking advantage of the corruptable governments and lax laws. you cannot simply 'acquire some capital' if your every waking moment is spent paying not to sleep on the street or go hungry. you cannot pretend like these people have anything close to the opportunity we do here

Graeber talking wistfully about an immortality drug is especially sad right now. Rest in power, comrade

@djmips

3 жыл бұрын

I'm totally rooting for you here...

@tomikexboii5403

3 жыл бұрын

Read a thing about Russian Cosmism and Nikolai Fyodorov, a faction of the technophile wing of the early 20th century pre- and post-revolution Bolsheviks. Their factions goal? Not just immortality drug. Nah. Too simple and easy for them. "An Immortality Drug would be an affront to all those giants and lesser men that were needed throughout the history of mankind to push Humanity to a Communist Utopia. We are immortal and live in an Utopia but what about those people!? Isn't it an insult to all those people who HAD TO die to get us to this point!? They, not us, are more deserving of immortality! So? We are going to build machines to resurrect all the dead people that were ever born! And all the people that might have been born! And all the people that never were born! Mwuhahahahaha!" The Russian Cosmists certainly didn't lack ambition.

@cdzlink7115

3 жыл бұрын

Why did communism fail so miserably?

@nightoftheworld

3 жыл бұрын

cdzlink because centrally planned economies lacked the ability to manage every aspect of the economy and people misappropriated Marx’s egalitarian ethic in service of state slavery.

@blairhakamies4132

3 жыл бұрын

@@cdzlink7115 because certain things are just BAD...

I thought David Graeber's book on 'Debt' was a genuine masterpiece - and listening to some of his talks / debates online has been a pleasure. It seems to me that he combined a childlike optimism (e.g. didn't he more or less openly advocate a 'jubilee' at some point?) with a profound understanding of so many things he wrote and spoke about. I think I will genuinely miss him. RIP

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

Debt is an excellent book.

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

The comparison to a child is perfect. Jesus said only those who behave like a child (in their curiosity) will enter the kingdom of Heaven.

@remzib

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah David talked about a jubilee. I'm writing a book about a jubilee. He read and liked the linked intro a few years ago. The plan is more complete now, in dedication to David. www.Common-Planet.org/plan

@roberthayes2027

3 жыл бұрын

David Graeber's book is available as a free PDF download: blindhypnosis.com/debt-the-first-5000-years-pdf-david-graeber.html

@bacarolle

3 жыл бұрын

can't wait to read "Debt" -- graeber worked closely with Michael Hudson who has a whole book "Forgive them their debts" that goes into great detail on the jubilee year and near east conceptions of debt and debt amnesty. He cites Graeber a lot!

Thiel being like "no no don't look at the structure just focus on the consequences *start sweating* ...no don't look at the structure. *look at the structure* nooooooooo" *kernel panic*

Graeber really did put Thiel in a corner during this talk. It was clear how uncomfortable Thiel was getting when Graeber kept deconstructing Thiel’s world views. Sad to see a legend pass away so young.

@Graeberwave

2 жыл бұрын

Have you seen any Adam Curtis documentaries?

“I want to live forever.” **SOBBING**

Bro used an example of himself leaving a law firm job he was handed right out of college as an example of why people aren’t as trapped as they think

@x0rn312

7 ай бұрын

You missed his point though, it wasn't that he was just as trapped as a poor person or something like that it was that the other high-powered high-paid lawyers thought that they were trapped... This whole class Warfare thing makes us all stupid

@infernoglass_

6 ай бұрын

​@@x0rn312It is usually called class "struggle" not "warfare", which i think makes a difference. claiming that a first world lawyer and someone working in a "third world" shoe factory is essentially experiencing the same struggle, because they both "feel trapped" is ridiculous. It is popular that when someone points to inequality, and looks for someone to blame, for the more privileged party to claim some version of "but in the end aren't we all human?". you can always abstract it to a degree where everyone is equal. Of course corporate lawyers can, and are allowed to feel trapped, and they undoubtedly are in some way, but you have to see how there is a difference, no? I agree there is no point in mindlessly antagonizing each other and i dislike the current trend of thinking that being privileged automatically makes you a bad person, which it doesn't. What it does though is bestow you with a relatively higher degree of social responsibility, which involves acknowledging ones advantages and in the very least not judging those less fortunate as being of lesser character.

Graeber: *explains how the system locks people down and allows only a few people to do things they want* Thiel (one of the few people): I don't think we should change the system, we should just do things

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

we = euphemism for "small government" = synonym for oligarchy

@tanmayroy6372

2 жыл бұрын

He didn't say that ..we should not change..all he said ..that changing a whole system..is quite daydreaming.. it's better and more efficient to do small things and making it larger so that rather than convincing people.

@verapamil07

2 жыл бұрын

@@tanmayroy6372 agreed, leftist like to imagine their pipe dream society and then destroy everything on its way to utopia.

@newagain9964

2 жыл бұрын

@@verapamil07 oh? And hyper-capitalist/pro oligarchy like thiel (but not u, because ur a pleb) aren’t destroying society on the way to THEIR admitted dystopia?

@tannercollins9863

2 жыл бұрын

@@tanmayroy6372 while people suffer and die, because f#%$ them right?

Every time Thiel talks, he tries to draw attention away from any recognition that the majority of people are having their lives brutally limited for the benefit of a few. David is being SO nice. Making his points, though.

@w.harrison7277

3 жыл бұрын

it amazes me how many commenters are hyper obsessed with Peter Thiel‘s wealth. Why not drop the envy and get on with life?

@holistic_radical

3 жыл бұрын

@@w.harrison7277 I said nothing that showed obsession or envy. I referred to argument tatics that distracted attention from addressing injustice and corruption, repeatedly.

@mohamedmonem9653

2 жыл бұрын

yeah, he was TOO nice. I came into the debate hoping that my favorite anarchist would wipe the floor with a corporate oligarch. But I don't blame him too much, if he was aggressive at all he wouldn't be himself. and he was just an amazing mind.

@defaulttmc

2 жыл бұрын

@@w.harrison7277 When a thief steals what is rightfully yours, is it envy to want it back?

@JackieChandler69

7 ай бұрын

⁠@@w.harrison7277Horrible take.

Yikes Peter, the banks got more levers and got bailed out again. Silicon valley hasn't shrunk the wealth gap and has only made big brother even bigger. David owned this conversation. Great teacher.

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

Thiel went to school for free.

@blairhakamies4132

3 жыл бұрын

@@Graeberwave what do you mean, please?

@mgm8075

3 жыл бұрын

@@blairhakamies4132 He means Thiel was schooled in this debate, and it turns out many of his views have not held up to the test of time. Thiel himself has left Silicon Valley.

@blairhakamies4132

3 жыл бұрын

@@mgm8075 thank you for educating me. 😊

@Elcherino123

3 жыл бұрын

Peter just doesnt seem to care. His care seems as much as a Pharoah in Ancient Egypt wanting great temples built on the backs of others. And at the end of it all, he believes he has built them all himself, with his own two magical hands no less. I can't even begin to think like he does, but I guess some of our minds are simpler than his

It is astonishing how brazen Thiel is about his hatred for democracy and his lack of faith in human beings to be more creative than he is. Anyone even briefly familiar with human history, anthropology, and social movements knows that human beings have an almost boundless creativity when not restrained by authoritarian hierarchical systems.

@onetwo3411

2 жыл бұрын

Name some of the great inventions created in anarchy

@krking533

2 жыл бұрын

@@onetwo3411 anarchism is a political stance, not a form of social organization. So zero, since there is no such thing as living "in anarchy." But if your question is "name some of the great inventions created in forms of social organization other than the one we live in today," the answer is almost boundless: the compass, agriculture, all simple machines, inoculations, cookery, the arch, the dome, columns, knives, steel, trumpets, flutes, roads...

@newagain9964

2 жыл бұрын

@@onetwo3411 anarchy is a relationship. U want examples tho: printing press, the x-Ray, the automobile, cryptocurrency, thousands of surgical procedures and Medicines…I could go on, but even an NPC like u gets it.

@charlytaylor1748

2 жыл бұрын

One two. The sex pistols. Case closed.

@ince55ant

2 жыл бұрын

@@onetwo3411 agriculture, the wheel, fire, etc.

David Graeber was such a brilliant guy, and with such a caring and compassionate nature. Peter Thiel is a fascist and an anti-democrat. His answer to most people being unable to fulfill their potential is to say that"there are a lot of ways to do things" Facepalm

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

big facts

@Starlightlive

Жыл бұрын

I could not disagree more , Thiel is brilliant

@sentilopis

Жыл бұрын

Both sides were being polite and not too direct. Graeber was giving a question about how to design a system that selects for talent. Thiel was saying that you let the talent self select itself in their own ingenious ways.

@jimbendtsen8841

Жыл бұрын

You're SO full of sh*t.

@omkanwar6323

Жыл бұрын

@@sentilopis i think both are correct in that many/most talented people dont know what to do with their lives (but still figure smth out) and that we cant really make a john lennon in school, bc the things he presents have not been seen before. the problem does reduce to giving them both the many opportunities to flourish that they need if aimless, and the basic means and freedom to go do their own thing if the things offered dont suit them.

It's truly amazing how Thiel fails to understand what not being wealthy is like

@genossinwaabooz4373

5 ай бұрын

I almost sense Theil understands the just aspirations of the public and prefers to leverage advantage of spoils while in their elitist bloody hands and ensure nothing interferes by preaching his accelerationist meritocracy myth hype.

@destruction1928

4 ай бұрын

Why should he care?

Thiel wants rich people to do great things, and Graeber wants us all to do what we want, and get great things as a byproduct. It's a pretty easy choice for me.

@ernststravoblofeld

3 жыл бұрын

@@w.harrison7277 Hey, it's a eugenics Nazi. Hi Mr Nazi!

@segasys1339

3 жыл бұрын

They can both be right! Thiel's prescriptions are meant to get the ball rolling, but his vision more or less converges with Graeber in the long run. They have the same basic objectives, just different ways of getting there.

@ernststravoblofeld

3 жыл бұрын

@@segasys1339 The guy who runs a company devoted to mass surveillance, named after the evil seeing stones of Sauron, does not converge with Graeber. At all. Can't happen.

@segasys1339

3 жыл бұрын

@@ernststravoblofeld Relax bruh. If that's your takeaway from this discussion, you're just recreationally outraged. They both agree on an end state of techonological abundance and human prosperity but disagree on how to break out of the sclerotic oligarchy in the near to medium term. If you think Thiel opposes Graeber in any intractable, irreconcilable way, you need to chill out.

@ernststravoblofeld

3 жыл бұрын

@@segasys1339 Fuck off chud.

When Graeber said academia has amounted to self-marketing, I am reminded of how many of my seemingly leftist professors would literally just assign us to read their publications and how so many lectures centered around paid speeches they did at the height of their eminence. It is sad,yet predicted that education, and knowledge itself ,succumbed to the hyperreal economy. Rest in power, Graeber.

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

Damn. True.

@graffitiabcd

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, but to be fair to them, that's just how terrible it is out here in late capitalism. They need to make a living too, and sometimes they really have to sell themselves, and their work. Sometimes, that amounts to a relatively harmless assignment involving their book in their lectures. Other times, it can involve blatant manipulation of research to reframe certain true facts and create harmful false propaganda.

@davefroman4700

Жыл бұрын

Luckily not all academia in the world is like this. America has lost the ability to question.

@aliceinwonder8978

Жыл бұрын

Well.... it's what they understand and have studied so they are more effective at teaching it. Why not assign something they have written? I had a teacher share her master's thesis with us and we would debate with her about it and it helped us all develop a better understanding. It isn't all about self-promotion. Unfortunately she got fired and they hired some new underpaid adjunct to teach for minimal wages

@ivorydungeon909

10 ай бұрын

@@aliceinwonder8978 I've been hanging around universities about 25 years, working as an academic for more than 10. The institution where I work is in the global top 20. While the university I attended in my undergrad years was certainly not in the top 20, the quality of education I was given there is sadly, better than what I am able to offer my own students in the apparently prestigious institution in which I now work. Part of the distinction is that the teachers used to give us a good idea of their own research and there'd indeed be lively debates and thoughtful reflection around the work they generously shared: it's what set me on the path of my own academic journey (can't really call it a career). Nowadays I guess there's been a shift into building static courses that can be more easily tracked over time, readings that give a general understanding of the topic but little opportunity for provocation or reflection; more of a self-service environment for students etc. In short, it's become more like a McDonald's. While the amount of work/pay I receive is a bit of a problem, it's the crisis in university culture that will see my out the exit before this year is through.

The problem, which was not discussed, is not that we aren't trying to colonize mars, or extend life, it's that we are always trying to make money. If a mushroom found in forests all over the world was a cure all, it would destroy pharma. Same for alternate energy would destroy big oil. Scarcity is manufactured because it is profitable.

@charlytaylor1748

2 жыл бұрын

I think I ate that mushroom

THIEL: "Maybe it's just I'm secretly working on behalf of the regime or something" GRAEBER: [mumbles] "Not that secretly". Hits the nail on the head 😂 Praise to Graeber for his patience!

@DSimonJones

3 жыл бұрын

fascists www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-trump-backers-spy-firm-lobbied-gove-hancock-before-winning-key-nhs-contract/

@myroseaccount

3 жыл бұрын

And the regime just silenced Graeber.

@BobVanBobbins

3 жыл бұрын

It's the key moment of the whole thing

@myroseaccount

3 жыл бұрын

@K O Autopsy results not yet produced. Up to 40 days in a case like this. Natural causes at the moment. Which seems unlikely. If he had an illness or condition we would have expected an announcement by now.

@CandidDate

3 жыл бұрын

The kings of the button-down shirts.

Hearing Thiel mention Elon Musk's "occupy Mars" t-shirts to refute Graeber's point about capital stifling innovation is too funny!

@Graeberwave

11 ай бұрын

That t-shirt didn’t age well did it?

No, Peter Thiel you are not a Political Atheist. That is a cop-out so that you do not have to qualify your beliefs.

@tavom6710

3 жыл бұрын

I think what he means he doesn't fetishise his political beliefs. he doesn't start every sentence with " coming from antiauthoritarian political movement" or some of her pretentious tribal statement. His limitation is that he will not entertain anything he doesn't think has some possibility of success. maybe that's a limitation of imagination. Maybe that's why he has been so successful.

@zebontheweb

3 жыл бұрын

Seems like an apt description for someone who steps way back to get an all encompassing view.

@ArkAnudDinYaSin

3 жыл бұрын

@@tavom6710 Sounds very "postmodern-isy" if there can be any such term. If I understand, what you are saying is, he is as cold and dead politically as a pile of money is...yaani Capital has no soul and therefore no beliefs, pure pragmatism...yes? I am not convinced, but I hear you. On thinking more deeply about it, I think he expresses his beliefs through his money, through actually altering the political landscape to suit his political beliefs... ...where we for being powerless are compelled to proselytize our beliefs till the masses and powerful hear them and hopefully alter the landscape to fit them. I think he does not needs to get in a public tussle with us because he has the relevant audience he needs to live his particular political beliefs. I believe you saw what he did to Gawker?

@tavom6710

3 жыл бұрын

@@ArkAnudDinYaSin he is considerably less cold and dead then David Graeber. Honestly I've never heard of that guy until I watched this video. Gawker lost a lawsuit based on their publication of a sex tape without the consent of the person the tape. If there is a moral high ground to be had there I can't see it. He and his followers speak with such absurd self-assurance. It's like wandering into the Christopher Hitchens, fan boy dark web. They are both dead let's move on!! I will leave you guys to your circle jerk.

@ArkAnudDinYaSin

3 жыл бұрын

@@tavom6710 That's rude. It's not our fault you can't hold yours up.

R.I.P David Graeber ...:(

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

It's very upsetting.

@ToadalSimplicity

3 жыл бұрын

God dammit, I literally just found out... Had no idea. What a loss and what a damn shame.

Peter Thiel assumed that “decentralized” means “chaotic.” As if decentralized organizations can’t coordinate.

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

Decentralization is only ok when he approves of it. He has the monopoly on decentralizing even.

@artiekushner6849

3 жыл бұрын

great name

@synchronium24

3 жыл бұрын

lol, this is almost certainly purposeful dishonesty from Thiel. He at one point identified as an ancap, and they are all about decentralization.

@BakerWase

3 жыл бұрын

Really? The definition of organization is: > an organized group of people with a particular purpose, such as a business or government department. Since people don't spontaneously *happen* to agree on their goals and how to achieve them, surely organization implies *some form* of centralization; even if informal and unconscious. Its easy to see organization can happen in ways that are not purely top down and autocratic -that is to say, not formally centralised; however co-ordination certainly means that there was some level centralization(no matter how informal and dynamic); lest how would one sign or imperative be given a greater imperative than all the other signs put forward by the constituents of the organization that would be required for such co-ordination or shared attention towards a certain goal? People don't merely happen to agree that 9am is the time for work and 5pm is clock off - but that wasn't organised by one pure top down autocracy either - it is to some extent decentralised, but since it IS organised, it must be centralised to some varying degree... What am I missing here?

@Elcherino123

3 жыл бұрын

He's about that pyramid life, top of it actually, he probably has no idea what the bottom layers go through

“I often say, one thing that’s Not a scarce resource of the world is- imaginative people with possible solutions to intractable problems. There’s probably no one in the entire world that doesn’t have some idea that we have never thought of and we’re both pretty smart guys.” -David Graeber The root of it all. This system doesn’t utilize our best and brightest.

@OpiatesAndTits

3 жыл бұрын

In fact it leaves many to be ground down by poverty, disease, and addiction. Perhaps most considering the vast majority of society lives in abject poverty.

@somosknow1

3 жыл бұрын

OpiatesAndTits well said and sadly very true.

@mlonyenioner

3 жыл бұрын

great quote!

@Porjil09

3 жыл бұрын

Theils direct response to this quote is " it's a lack of imagination" wtf.

As much as I like Peter Thiel one has to acknowledge that David indeed thinks about the subject matter in much deeper and more coherent way. Peter is an advocate of leaving the system aside and doing what you want to do regardless of law and etc. David thinks about changing the whole system. This way much more potential could be released. Potential of millions of people who do useless jobs just to support themselves instead of following their passion.

@informationsuperkhan

2 жыл бұрын

“Changing the whole system” is the basis of every shallow and incoherent plan. It’s like the platonic form of shallow incoherence. The original sin. It’s the goal of every movement that ends up making zero impact.

@verapamil07

2 жыл бұрын

Not want to be rude, but your summary is a good window into a typical leftist central planning mind. Idealism that never becomes reality.

@onetwo3411

2 жыл бұрын

Most people don't have a passion and there's value in finding passions through doing difficult and unenjoyable things

@battyjr

2 жыл бұрын

@@informationsuperkhan it doesn't have to happen like that though, in a large sweeping manner. I have some first hand experience with this happening to me (a mere component of the whole). When covid hit I got furloughed from my job at a restaurant, went on government assistance, and was able to start organizing musicians to fight for fairer wages in a city that brings in billions from music every year while its musicians barely survive- or have to work in other jobs in addition to the music industry. If it can happen to me (a part of the whole), then it can happen to other parts of the whole without needing some sort of utopic revolution. The only thing really utopic I keep hearing is the idea that this corporate capitalist world is somehow sustainable, and guarantees individual freedom.

@newagain9964

2 жыл бұрын

@@informationsuperkhan perhaps. But in the least we need to create local communities that “the system” has very little control over. That’s what I’m about. Forget “the USA”/ federalism. It’s a decaying gold plated turd.

I think there was a tremendous opportunity for the two to agree after Thiel raised a valid point about the oil shock of the 70s. The direction I wish the talk had taken was, why not an Apollo-like program to reduce oil dependency by developing alternative energy technologies? It was clearly feasible. Of course, some of the answers to this question are obvious and play much more to Graeber's observations about how society makes it difficult to creatively innovate when, among other things, it's under excessive political pressure from a multitude of sources such as lobbyists and very large industries. This is an imbalance that needs to be corrected. Graeber is in favor of change, Thiel is convinced things can't be changed so let's solve by working around the constraints. I'm in favor of the former; the latter is fundamentally pessimistic and simply leads to a slightly different distorted system.

@bucketofbarnacles

3 жыл бұрын

Here’s a glimpse of what could have happened if an Apollo-like program to reduce oil dependency had been initiated. Look at the steep drop in energy production cost from solar cells. cdn.substack.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F22d7264b-830b-47fc-94e1-22ba4b80b811_2426x3747.png Here is the source article. noahpinion.substack.com/p/jevons-paradox-wont-slow-the-energy

@davidp.7620

6 ай бұрын

That Apollo-like project already exists. Several times over. The world is spending far more resources on developing clean energy than it ever did on making it to the moon. The problem is that producing a constant stream of clean energy for 8 billion people is a far more complicated task than a moon landing. No amount of political discourse will change that fact

Beautiful debate! I wish political debates would be so nice. It is rare pair of speakers.

Thiel has the guts to actually keep harping on scarcity. There is obviously no such thing, or his position in society would not exist. There are vastly more empty houses than homeless people. There is enough food waisted by the food industry to feed the world twice over. Scarcity is largely a manufactured thing to keep wealth and power concentrated in the hands of the special few.

@CarolPrice4p

9 ай бұрын

I accept cookies 😋

“I want to live forever” 😢

Peter Thiel: Political atheist, libertarian, capitalist, and “working on behalf of the regime” (can’t believe he said that). He hates communism but defends lobbying government for tax-funded advantages. He doesn’t like big government but argues for big national programs like moon landing. Boy was he wrong about “the finance era” being over, and “a long deflationary phase” beginning. At least he admits he chose technology business over politics because he’s “not good at convincing people.” Graeber is in a league of his own. Thiel repeatedly defends his capitalism and contradicts himself multiple times. Didn’t realize he had defense contracts until now. Graeber really seems principled, to care about the future and common good and then suggests some constructive ideas. Thiel’s principles seem to be based around his own personal freedom and wealth accumulation. It was good to see them agree on some things though. Really happy to watch this. I learned a lot. Thx OP

@frankjennings4489

3 жыл бұрын

It's much easier to be principled as a professor theorizing about radical change than an entrepreneur operating on a high-level.

@MtMeadow

3 жыл бұрын

Frank Jennings that’s true

@spencerharmon4669

3 жыл бұрын

@@frankjennings4489 Since when is direct action "theorizing"?

@DSimonJones

3 жыл бұрын

Palantir the fascist tool for power www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-trump-backers-spy-firm-lobbied-gove-hancock-before-winning-key-nhs-contract/

@jimenycricket8431

3 жыл бұрын

@@frankjennings4489 You do not even realise what you are saying. Thiel can have all the principles he wants, if he wants them, which a professor has. If he doesn't want them, then he does not hold those principles... When you talk about principles, what principle are you espousing about them? That, if it is convenient, you can have principles, so long as it risks no harm to your prospects of maximising profits, you can have principle 'A', as a principle. That's not holding principle 'A', that's holding the principle of wanting to maximise profits first, with everything else coming second. Holding principle 'A' is just something you pretend. That's the principle you are espousing. You can hold this principle, but it is totally lousy, much more unprincipled than principled. What you are saying is that 'principles' are things of convenience, and that Thiel does not maybe have the convienience of having all the principles, that a professor might have. That is itself a principle. A tremendously lousy principle, more unprincipled than principled.

Can we just pause and applaud the editing of this video to remove dumb pauses and useless intros🎉🍾

Love how Graeber immediately and eloquently refuted Thiel's assertion that the concepts of scarcity and fake money are real. Kudos to him.

@rotfogel

8 ай бұрын

Graeber demolished Thiel. I'm embarrassed for Peter Thiel.

@x0rn312

7 ай бұрын

I don't think he did refute the assertion that scarcity is real... I think he actually agreed with him. But, to paraphrase and use your term, he added that that doesn't mean the money is real in the way people think.... These guys are way more on the same page than the people in the comments seem to realize. This is barely a deabate: it's really two Anarchist/Libertarian type people trying to figure out how you structure a truly free Society...

This is so good! i'm glad I found this, I respect both these guys perspectives and love their books. They differ philosophically, sometimes in polarising ways, yet are both so intelligent and valuable. Such a mature discussion and glad they can sit and enjoy each other's presence enough to not cut each other off and throw in low comments on each others character (mostly). Graeber, I miss you.

Excellent discussion, especially in view of the very different backgrounds represented.

@jamesmcclaskey4610

3 жыл бұрын

This discussion could have been a LOT less civil, and likewise a lot less intelligible. I really appreciated hearing these two actually debate and talk instead of the usual arguments

@metalstarj

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed. All the comments in this video on the other hand... like they weren't hardly even arguing why are people talking about this like it was a street brawl.

“You used to put them in academia, but now academia’s all about self-marketing.”

The Thumbnail 😂

It seems to me that Thiel advances an argument that applauds Herculean resilience and grit without interrogating the conditions that require them. Also, there is a big difference between being an Anarchist (micro), and living in an Anarchy (macro). Myopic...

Thiel: "i agree that the eccentric university professor is a species that's becoming extinct". Graeber: "well, I know that" That was hard to hear now. RIP to a great one. Someday, we'll get justice for his death

@craigkelly8369

2 жыл бұрын

Justice?

@abstractalien12345

2 жыл бұрын

@@craigkelly8369 if history has taught me anything, it's that a three letter agency is to blame if anyone left of truman dies before 70

@craigkelly8369

2 жыл бұрын

@@abstractalien12345 Home Owners Associations can be difficult entities to get along with but murdering academic anarchists ...?

What i heard and saw was a dialog between an intellectual and some rich guy.

@nnnnsaakadamanas218

3 жыл бұрын

a chess game of admissions - graeber won out at 20 mins at the point thiel acknowledges screwed up aspects of bureaucracy

@nnnnsaakadamanas218

3 жыл бұрын

and then at 22:30 where graeber perfectly takes thiel down a few pegs

@Deckard93

3 жыл бұрын

@@nnnnsaakadamanas218 Theils face is hilarious

@randallj25

3 жыл бұрын

Exactly.

@metalstarj

3 жыл бұрын

I don't think David Graeber is that rich... jk i think they're both very interesting.

David is light years ahead. We have the technology. We certainly should not be working 24/7 all our lives in order to line someone else's pockets.

@mr85grim

3 жыл бұрын

@@w.harrison7277 Wtf are you even talking about?

@mr85grim

3 жыл бұрын

@@w.harrison7277 Care to provide some scientific data to backup that beyond ridiculous claim? Correlation does not necessarily equal causation, if you know anything about science you would know that. I think it's far more likely that we tend to put our smart tech people into the business world now where all they do is research on how to get people addicted to their phones. And I see no evidence of even a correlation either as every field of study is still overwhelmingly male dominated atleast here in the usa.

@LokiBeckonswow

11 күн бұрын

keynes imagined in the 1930s that by the 2020s we'd only be working 15 hour workweeks...

Thiel: I'm a political atheist. Thiel: As a Libertarian...

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

Joshua Bohnert lmaoooo he did do that

@davidnaef1

3 жыл бұрын

42:45 I think David Graeber gave a very good answer on Peter Thiels concept of being a political atheist. I go with David on that by a long shot.

@CandidDate

3 жыл бұрын

The kings of the button-down shirts.

@mattmarkus4868

3 жыл бұрын

@@davidnaef1 He's always been libertarian in general but he realized the nature of politics and the futility of trying to get things done by trying to get everyone's permission. His points make a lot of sense actually.

@truecult666

3 жыл бұрын

all libertarian's think they are political atheists, but they are just republicans who want legal weed

This is kind of blowing my mind because I've been talking about a libertarianism that also recognises the need for a welfare state for a long time and have found no other thinkers who share that view point. But today I discovered David Graeber - his speaking my language

@aheadfullofmultitudes273

6 ай бұрын

It's called anarchism dude. It's gonna blow your mind.

Thiel calls himself a libertarian but runs a self-admittedly Orwellian company? Ok.

@Itsmespiv4192

Жыл бұрын

The word libertarian has been appropriated by liberals like many other words

@Ryan-xq3kl

Жыл бұрын

you dont understand what libertarian means

@zerologic7912

Жыл бұрын

@@Ryan-xq3kl anything that can be reasonably described as Orwellian is fundamentally incompatible with any definition of "libertarian", but I'd love to hear what you got.

@Icameron259

7 ай бұрын

American Libertarianism basically just means "unchecked corporate power". They think liberty for the rich is the only liberty worth caring about.

@davidp.7620

6 ай бұрын

@@Icameron259 that's a totally objective unbiased definition for sure

The problem with Thiel's argument in this debate (there are lots of problems with Thiel generally, but they don't really factor into this) is that he's got this very Malthusian mindset, and he makes the same mistake as Malthus. He's right that there is scarcity in the system, but most of that scarcity is artificial and the only reason there isn't enough for everyone is because people like Thiel have so much more than everyone else. Thiel isn't some revolutionary thinker, he made his money by being a banker, but the first one to do it online, and then speculative investment. He hasn't actually produced anything except a convenient middle-man. The primary reason he's a billionaire is that he was born at just the right time to capitalize on an emerging market that was invented though government funding, and be the only game in town when the market calcified.

@Graeberwave

2 жыл бұрын

So many facts, so many hurt feelings.

@Graeberwave

2 жыл бұрын

It is also amazing how you and I know what the shape of the Earth is. Yet, why do people want to "debate" otherwise? And to all the Thiel and Musk knobs, I'll remind you: that was a rhetorical question.

@charlytaylor1748

2 жыл бұрын

I was enjoying this until I got called a knob

@frankjennings4489

2 жыл бұрын

The way you described his career is technically accurate but doesn't really do it justice. Saying that he was just a banker who happened to be the first to do it online is like saying that rockets are just big fireworks. Lots of people tried to create viable online payment systems but it proved very difficult and PayPal was the first major success largely because of Thiel's philosophy and leadership. He's also been one of the most successful venture capitalists ever, so writing the rest of his career off as just speculative investment is also underselling what he's done, problematic entanglements with the security state aside.

@Graeberwave

2 жыл бұрын

@@frankjennings4489 He also funded JD Vance, the latest Trumpanzee to jump on the fascist bandwagon, who just won their primary! Thiel just can't stop winning!

What a pleasure to be able to listen to these minds.

@Graeberwave

2 жыл бұрын

Do you think Elon Musk started Tesla?

We are suffering from the emptiness of neoliberal rentier economic. Bankers and landlords don't have dreams, Mr Theil.

@Graeberwave

2 жыл бұрын

whenever people talk about they are "centrists," your words describe exactly what they would like to "center." They never ask themselves: the center of what?

@eottoe2001

2 жыл бұрын

@@Graeberwave with few exceptions most Democrats are right of Nixon at this point in time. Obama considered that he himself would be a moderate Republican if he had been around when Reagan was president. Look at George Bush Sr. handling of the S&L failures compared to the 2008.

@Graeberwave

2 жыл бұрын

@@eottoe2001 The center is the nucleus of the neoliberal consensus: two wings of the same rainbow-colored drone

@eottoe2001

2 жыл бұрын

@@Graeberwave because they all went to the same colleges and universities where they took the course and with the same professors despite whether they were oriented right or left. Off topic but something to think about is that Milton Friedman went on and on about how the efforts of FDR were a failure to get the US out of the depression. (Milton doesn't explain why the business didn't do it either) But thing that he didn't address is that those reforms produced huge economic growth for the US and working people that stopped when his economics were implemented. When the US occupied Japan the implemented the same reforms and Japan had tremendous growth pretty much until they implemented "The Washington Consensus" then it all stopped. The blame it on the bubble but once those reforms were turned back, Japan was never the that powerhouse it was. Far being is a failure, it worked pretty well.

@Graeberwave

2 жыл бұрын

@@eottoe2001 Wow. Friedman wrote "The Conservative Mind" right? I want to read that.

OP you crack me up trashing all the commenters (only the Thiel ones) doing gods work sir

@Graeberwave

2 жыл бұрын

Yes I am biased, biased for humanity. I will not lie and pretend like I've achieved "objectivity," although I can say the sky is blue.

@dodododatdatdat

2 жыл бұрын

@@Graeberwave Bless yourself. And thanks for the video

@Graeberwave

2 жыл бұрын

@@dodododatdatdat A quote from Graeber (in Direct Action): Creating accord is the creation of society. Society is god. Or, perhaps, god is our capacity to create society. Consensus is therefore a ritual of sacrifice, the sacrifice of egoism, where the act bring into being that very god. We are gods.

Graeber is a genius and Thiel is a freak 😌

Thiel: just keep the corrupt system and let the rich do their thing Graeber: enable everyone to unleash their potential ❤

Graeber is a pleasure to listen to.

@45shields

11 ай бұрын

Agree. Sadly, covid got him, I think.

They need to slow down Thiel-bot's ocular-sensor servo-motors in the next update @26:56

Fllippin' Peter Thiel. Color me yellow and call me a banana; imagine a billionaire neoliberal technocrat telling people you can't have this and that while also issuing veiled denunciations of worker owned co-ops. He can go pound sand.

@mattwooten7421

3 жыл бұрын

Peter Thiel might be the most terrifying human on the planet and that’s saying a lot.

@blairhakamies4132

3 жыл бұрын

@@mattwooten7421 can you expand your statement, please?

@thedude1373

3 жыл бұрын

He's a literal Nazi. As in, he attends their meetings.

@blairhakamies4132

3 жыл бұрын

@@thedude1373 Amazing if it is true 🤔

@thedude1373

3 жыл бұрын

@@blairhakamies4132 It is. www.buzzfeednews.com/article/rosiegray/peter-thiel-donald-trump-white-nationalist-support

The reason technology has done more in the way of bits instead of atoms is directly a symptom of the system Graeber shines a light on

I am absolutely convinced that no wealth in the world can help humanity forward, even in the hands of the most devoted worker in this cause. - Albert Einstein

It’s important to remember that it isn’t how much money we have, it’s what the money buys and incentivized that matters

Any idea when this happened ? which year I mean. Thanks for uploading it :)

@sloburnjo

3 жыл бұрын

Friday, September 19, 2014

@dalton-at-work

3 жыл бұрын

aged poorly, peter's ideas have -yoda

DAVID GRAEBER was a founding member of the Institute for Experimental Arts He did a lecture with the title: How social and economic structure influences the Art World in the Financial Consequences - International MultiMedia Poetry Festival organized by the Institute for Experimental Arts supported by LSE Department of Anthropology. Influential anthropologist David Graeber, known for his 2011 volume Debt: The First 5000 Years speaks about the correlation between the cultural sphere and society. The intellectuals and the artists create an imaginary way to criticize the economic system in any era. Art can overcome hegemonic frameworks and acknowledge other possible worlds, offer us the opportunity to understand better the marginalized social entities. Social exclusion is the process in which individuals or people are systematically blocked from (or denied full access to) various rights, opportunities and resources that are normally available to members of a different group, and which are fundamental to social integration and observance of human rights within that particular group (e.g., housing, employment, healthcare, civic engagement, democratic participation, and due process). As the economic crises go deeper in time more people face the effects of exclusion. Art and social sciences can give voice to the voiceless. Especially young social aware poets can give us a clear view of the real social effect of the financial consequences. - David Graeber You can watch the Lecture here: kzread.info/dash/bejne/iXd6j5qIgc2Wgqg.html

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

He wrote an essay on that in Reverse Revolutions. It is one of my favorites.

Around 20 minutes in it’s pretty obvious that Thiel realizes he’s in over his head.

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

lmao he starts molting

@unitedstatesofpostamerica7559

3 жыл бұрын

Thiel is never over his head. He is the head.

@minamur

3 жыл бұрын

@@unitedstatesofpostamerica7559 the very shiny head

@Squalidarity

3 жыл бұрын

Not even, to me it was clear in his opening statement.

@jdanon4103

3 жыл бұрын

Haha, esp funny in the end when he looks at David to what his answer to the audiences question might be... haha.

"We should just start doing it," is a very vacuous statement.

Rest in Power Graeber.

Looks to me like we seriously shouldn’t have forgiven the criminals who founded PayPal.

You should include in the video description that this talk originally occurred in 2014.

Thiel: "I work on technics, not on politics - it's not possible to convince so many people..." - think about it, what that means : (

James Madison: "The primary function of government is to protect the interest of the opulent minority against the majority." Thiel: "It's too complex a society...there's a lot that's broken...government would become too controlling. But what we can do is go to Mars."

Peter- Money is just a measure of stuff David- Actually it's not

@redboycaptures

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah the billionaire is wrong here. Seems legit

@jorgethevanguard

3 жыл бұрын

@@redboycaptures yeah that's what happens when you work for the cia

@redboycaptures

3 жыл бұрын

@@jorgethevanguard oh ok so he made paypal and invested in facebook as a CIA operative?

Thiel's core thesis is that despite corruption being at the core of the system, we shouldn't try to do anything about it.

@TrueNorth1970

3 жыл бұрын

the usual "logic" from apologists for the status quo / powers that be

@Confucius_76

3 жыл бұрын

Has there ever been a system which has eliminated corruption? If not, what system has reduced it the most?

@SpirosPagiatakis

3 жыл бұрын

@@Confucius_76 No there has never been one. Corruption thrives under all systems of government and most of them are built on a foundation of corruption.

@notbot8830

3 жыл бұрын

@@Confucius_76 ergo remove the system (or atleast the formal system)

@chinogambino9375

3 жыл бұрын

You have to work with what you have unless you enjoy failure. If you want to be a radical then enjoy a bullet for your trouble.

Is Palantir taking us from Keystone Cops to Orwellian? THIEL: No.... Well yes actually.

@Hands2HealNow

3 жыл бұрын

The guy is an unappealing Max Headroom flunky...He has no intention of respecting anyone's Inalienable rights.

This was recorded in 2014. Could this be mentioned in the description, please? I had to scroll down a lot to find out.

Seems as though Peter Thiel's main argument is that it it often easier to affect change starting with small groups rather than mass movements. This viewpoint is not at all antithetical to anarchism and is in fact the basis of many successful modern tactics of anarchist organization. His flaw seems to be the assumption that smaller groups of people must necessarily be organized heirarchically. The only evidence he provides for this assumption is ancedotal involving small companies that claimed to be decentralized and transparent breaking down when those involved became aware of differences in their pay. So I must assume that Peter Theil doesn't understand that different pay rates are a form of hierarchical organization.

@L.L.2045

3 жыл бұрын

Good point.

Great!

"Where Did the Future Go". Peter Thiel: Airbnb is pretty good. Bahahaahhahahhahahaha, what a lightweight

@conformist

3 жыл бұрын

Airbnb market cap is $80B.

@hemiedwards217

3 жыл бұрын

@@conformist So what?

A lot of commenters seem to think Thiel saying he's a political atheist makes him a hypocrite, because he identified himself as a libertarian and donated money to Trump. But that's really missing the point: I don't think he's saying he doesn't feel any affinity towards any political persuasion or that he won't partake in politics; he's saying he doesn't worship any political ideology, i.e. he doesn't believe any set of ideas is above reproach, or should be bowed down to sight-unseen. That seems like a pretty legitimate point of view to me, and my sense is the only reason people would take issue with it is either a) they are 'believers' in a specific political religion and therefore see him as an apostate, or b) haven't understood the metaphor. I could be wrong - that's just how I parsed his sentiment. I should also I say i much prefer Graeber - both in this discussion and his writing more generally. So this isn't coming from some whack-job Thiel obsessive.

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed. Thiel says a very useful quote in this discussion: The market isn't exclusive to capitalism.

@L.L.2045

3 жыл бұрын

@Nosferatu Zodd Just wanted you to kow that you are a voice of reason.

I never understood why Peter Thiel is worshipped as a philosopher and intellectual in silicon valley. His entire philosophy is a mishmash of justifications and rationalizations for his own greed. Why did Thiel, a former hard core libertarian, transform into a national conservative? Because Palantir won a government contract, of course.

@jamdodgeismyname1

3 жыл бұрын

“It is a frequent vice of radical polemic to assert, and even to believe, that once you have found the lowest motive for an antagonist, you have identified the correct one.”

@shannon-daygrant8754

3 жыл бұрын

Could you provide an argument that's not dependent on mind-reading?

@crystalc1ear

3 жыл бұрын

@@shannon-daygrant8754 A PRINCIPLED libertarian wouldn't support Josh Hawley and Donald Trump, sell data to NSA, FBI, and ICE, fund a candidate who wants a registry of muslims in the US, or provide ideological support for neo-reactionaries like Moldbug. Of course, most american "libertarianism" boils down to "the best government is the one that lets me make the most profit" and Thiel's actions don't deviate from Ayn Rand's egoist ideology. But he's definitely not a philosophically consistent libertarian.

@shannon-daygrant8754

3 жыл бұрын

​@@crystalc1ear You're still mind-reading a bit, but Ok. you're problem is he bills himself as a libertarian but doesn't fit your idea of one. Can principled' Putting labels aside, can you point to anything he has said that you disagree with?

@crystalc1ear

3 жыл бұрын

@@shannon-daygrant8754 I actually don't disagree with much on this video. Thiel is saying innovation and good things come from the self-interested actions of a few brilliant people and that's the way it should be, Graeber says they come from collective effort and cooperation and that's the way it should be. I am closer to the latter but I can see Thiel's point. But overall I am repulsed by Thiel's sociopathic life philosophy. The obsession with exiting society (and evading taxes) once you've used up its potential, the obsession with immortality, the racism (he defended apartheid and Palantir's alliances with racial profiling in the government are shady in my opinion), the sexism (he said women should not vote), etc... I'm no SJW and some of the things he says, especially about colleges and groupthink, I kind of agree with, but in the end I think he's a vile cretin.

Where did this discussion happen? I'd enjoy more talks from that place, can you give me the name?

And investments in lawyers creating laws favorable towards creating intellectual property rent...

Theil is intelligent and has made some interesting critiques in the past, but next to Graeber (who i am even less familiar with) Theil looks like an average libertarian "know nothing". He's not even keeping up with Graeber here, who is way ahead of him on every subject. For example, the idea of being "politically agnostic". Anyone who has truly engaged with the deep questions of society and humanity knows that this is an immature view. You can't be politically agnostic and be expected to be taken seriously on the subjects of politics which encompass everything. This view is a symptom of our times, yet Theil gets away with this, he is even lauded for this view because of his status, yet another symptom of our times. Graeber is attempting to take the conversation deeper at every turn and Theil just has nowhere to go. It demonstrates the difference between a true intellectual (or what it means to be truly educated) and the status quo apologists that are so popular today (the one's the Greeks referred to as "Sophists"). I hope people can see the real lack of substance in Theil's approach.

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

Thiel is a poser. A slippery knob. End of story. I do like to quote Thiel though when he says "The market isn't exclusive to capitalism."

@Bisquick

3 жыл бұрын

@@Graeberwave Seriously, one of the greatest "innovations" of capitalism is mass ideological social control, though perhaps this is itself an illusion in that this is the fundamental feature of "human nature" that is distorted and forced to function as a bug. Or in other words, the transformation of that underlying unifying force of imagining and chasing the 'absurd' or 'impossible' for the benefit of many that religion offers at its core through the idea of anything/everything ie "god" into a force of coercion and social bondage for the revolting benefit of a few. I mean like, one can "act like they are free" all they want, but if they're confined to a prison of possibility (or you know, literally) no amount of faith is going to change that structural domination at its base. And like, not to excuse the absolutely deserved shitting on Thiel for his obvious grotesque material comfort that he has the _actual potential_ to influence through this accumulated surplus value, but ironically Thiel himself is even a lesser (much, _much_ lesser, to be clear) victim of the confinement he apathetically enforces on the rest of us in that manufactured ideological prison that puts up subconscious imaginary blind spots to possibility purely for the sake of perpetuating its continued exploitative existence, cloaked in that distortion of the enlightenment ideals of "freedom" and "rationality" to justify itself despite a shared acknowledgement of being neither. I forget where I heard the phrase "epistemology of ignorance" but I think it is quite an apt expression of what I'm trying to get at. Anyway, hopefully that made any sense and wasn't too bathed in unnecessary jargon, really just a wordy way to say maybe Peter should look into dialectical materialism to better understand his lack of imagination and extremely arbitrary circumstantial position of financial dictator that can break him out of the assumed and unquestioned divine right of entrepreneurs mindset. Or not. Probably that one sadly (and almost insanely at this point).

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

@@Bisquick Agreed. We underestimate how influential mass media is. Check out the book Technopoly by Neil Postman if you haven't already (or anything by Vilem Flusser).

@mrwigg1es

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you, much wiser than my comment. well stated.

@mrbananaman8032

3 жыл бұрын

Peter serves a very obvious purpose in the world today imo: to be so off base from reality and to have so much power that he is evil. He is a representation of what we must overcome in the coming years. Take a look at his "competition is for losers" talk he did at Stanford where he argues that monopolies are a must and that scientists who end up poor lived worthless lives. He is someone that has somehow never been challenged in his life. He is backed and funded and protected... somehow. You can see Peter getting uncomfortable as David unknowingly calls outs Peter's entire ethos beginning around 6 minutes in. Watch Peter's fingers. David goes on to essentially say "beaurorcary began being controlled by corporations which shifted the focus from innovation and creation to finance". Peter literally argued for this in his competition is for losers talk.

i think both are correct in that many/most talented people dont know what to do with their lives (but still figure smth out) and that we cant really make a john lennon in school, bc the things he presents have not been seen before. the problem does reduce to giving them both the many opportunities to flourish that they need if aimless, and the basic means and freedom to go do their own thing if the things offered dont suit them.

You guys are tripping. This was a great discussion and barely a debate. They both had great points, audience was good too. Thanks OP. RIP David

@Lenny-bi4zv

2 жыл бұрын

thinking thiel had good points there is a huge self report. try consuming different content than shapiro and peterson

@Lenny-bi4zv

2 жыл бұрын

@@Galahaj I just concluded that from the fact that you think a fascist dude made great points in a video in which he only talked shit from start to finish^^

@charlytaylor1748

2 жыл бұрын

Spray that Fascist tag around till it loses meaning.

@Galahaj

2 жыл бұрын

@@charlytaylor1748 str8 up brother. Too much vitriol = no real discussion. I don't even watch Shapiro lol and if I did why should it matter?

@Lenny-bi4zv

2 жыл бұрын

@@charlytaylor1748 so youre saying Thiel is not a fascist? US brain take

Those comments by Graeber at the beginning kinda make you think in some respects how lame progress has been technologically. Flying cars, Space colonies, immortality pills, an end to drudgery? Nope, rather just more cheesy social media. There’s a lot of good technological development when it comes to computers and the internet though personally I think the biggest stuff was the first decade of the internet.

@Graeberwave

4 жыл бұрын

True story. Graeber talks about the Internet here, interesting. kzread.info/dash/bejne/X4Wbtaykm5Tanso.html

@Graeberwave

4 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately the great days of the Internet are over, and could get worse. Of course if you know where to look (or what to do) you can use that #technology in a "good" way. Also, unfortunately, we are more often encouraged (or maybe educated, corralled) to be a bunch of mouth-breathing flu klux klan types typing like keyboard drone pilots all over the place. Shout out to Instructables.com by the way.

@lordzaboem

3 жыл бұрын

I have not yet thought this through adequately, but the technological stagnation seems to me to be mirrored by the way small businesses develop in the United States. Let's say that you want to start a pharmacy. You go to a bank with a business plan for starting a small pharmacy in a neighborhood which has none. That's a rejection waiting to happen, because the bank deems the plan as risky. Next week, you bring a revised plan to the same banker; now you intend to start a rival pharmacy directly across the street from an established pharmacy offering all the same products. The banker will approve this loan because now she's betting on what she deems as a safer business, one which has already been demonstrated to work by someone else. In this scenario, the underserved neighbor never does get a pharmacy, and the two business owners are now dividing the available profits from the overserved neighborhood. In this world, I can see how R&D budgets are refocused get shrunk or eliminated all together, and what remains gets focused on smaller goals. There is just no courage in the world of finance.

who invited Peter Thiel? Is understanding is not on par with David Graeber's.

Excellent conversation. Both my heroes.

@Graeberwave

4 ай бұрын

Oh now this makes sense. Thiel is also your hero.

@SignOfCalm

4 ай бұрын

@@Graeberwave the convo was solvent. What’s wrong with enjoying them both? Ur bitter.

@Graeberwave

4 ай бұрын

@@SignOfCalm if you don’t know about why Thiel is a problem and not to be adulated, then I strongly advise you log off the internet and renew your library card.

@Graeberwave

4 ай бұрын

@@SignOfCalm and I’m bitter? Sure. I can’t be? You’re the taste police? Meanwhile Thiel is a crypto fascist, and backs such candidates clamoring for said fascism. There is no way you haven’t seen that in your algorithm given your adulation of him. The headlines cover his activities. But since we play who is tasting what, let me say what your taste is.

@Graeberwave

4 ай бұрын

@@SignOfCalm oh no wait, I know what you will say next. Let me guess. You’ll suddenly invoke your pseudo-legal theory?

Yes. I was told to shut up. Too many ideas we don't have time for them. Stop sharing them. Felt my job was in jeopardy if I would try to improve things-- even on my breaktime!

3 blood clots formed in my brain everytime Thiel said he was a political athiest

@AntonioGarmsci-cy5vt

3 жыл бұрын

Take an 81mg of aspirin quickly.

@cf6713

2 жыл бұрын

Well he’s kind of a theist or a non theist hard to say really. In any case his position regarding politics seems a little bipolar but it’s completely coherent.

@ince55ant

2 жыл бұрын

its like saying "i have no ideology"

@girngo

Жыл бұрын

Yeah and he said that all shiny from sweat, it's like watching somebody bitting his tongue for an hour and half

@pappapaps

Жыл бұрын

@@cf6713 It is not "completely coherent" at all. In one breath he is a political atheist, in the next he is a libertarian. That's not cohesion, I don't know what else to tell you.

"I wanna live forever." 34:18. I think David's academic work will far out live Thiel in terms of influence so I think he will. :( RIP

@thrilos7

3 жыл бұрын

I’m not so sure about that. Peter has been instrumental in creating some of the most important tech companies in human history (Facebook, Palantir, PayPal, etc.). They have literally changed the course of civilization, for better or worse (probably the latter). Guys like Graeber write about the things that people like Thiel actually *do* in the world. Graeber’s work has the occasional zing, but seems unfocused. Just my opinion.

@adamazzalino5247

3 жыл бұрын

@@thrilos7 k

@DSimonJones

3 жыл бұрын

if palantir and the likes gain more control davids work will be burnt akin to Nazi book burning .....Neofascist www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/revealed-trump-backers-spy-firm-lobbied-gove-hancock-before-winning-key-nhs-contract/

@Maziedivision

3 жыл бұрын

I want to believe that that’s true, but when has any professor assigned you to read Graeber? I think his work hasn’t really been acknowledged in academic circles,who are themselves often neo liberal bureaucracies, n’est pas? It’s true in a way. Academia is still very very afraid to speak of politics outside the binary left/right system. Graeber,Zizek-those minds who seek to criticize both sides as a single structure are often rejected...from what I see and recall at least .

@adamazzalino5247

3 жыл бұрын

@@Maziedivision I read plenty my advisors never assigned.

thanks

Half of the food that gets actually eaten gets thrown away every year, and already before it even lands in peoples' fridges. Talk about scarcity.

"An assault on the power of the human imagination"!!!!!!!

Do you have a list of books you would recommend or that were pivotal in developing your current perspective?

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

Fragments of an anarchist anthropology by David Graeber

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

Link to Fragments is here, free pdf abahlali.org/files/Graeber.pdf

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

Read this after Fragments, and you'll be set for life to be honest. www.rivendellvillage.org/Toolbox_For_Sustainable_City_Living.pdf

@mgm8075

3 жыл бұрын

@@Graeberwave Thank you!

@thrilos7

3 жыл бұрын

@@Graeberwave If you were to summarize the ideas presented in Fragments in a few sentences, what would they be?

who wrote what book , the year the speed at which we could travel stopped doubling? thanks in advance.

25:50 - Kantega, but also at a more fundamental level that makes public trading companies completely unaccountable to their shareholders

I love how every single thing peter says the camera has to cut to David to show you how dumbfounded he is

What is this, a PR tour for Theil? Hoping the shameful data drain from Fb won't be looked at as the sleazy skim that it was?

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

communism of the rich fanboys are upset.

@susanray4059

3 жыл бұрын

@@Graeberwave While the perceptions of the masses got twisted by these connected satanic silver spoon twits. "I want more, please?"

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

@@susanray4059 Insidious pencil necked keyboard drone pilots.

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

@@susanray4059 Emotion is a legitimate way of knowing -some neuroscientist who wrote a book

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

@@susanray4059 I know, I'm just saying.

Exactly a lot changed when tony blair appeared .it seems when ever i have a critical observation , I've realised the time limit i put on it is the last 15 years funnily enough when blair was PM . Even the damned weather

at around 12:00 peter thiel quotes David Graeber without crediting him, lol. "what does it mean to be an anarchist..."

Thiel has made all of his money from .gov, then calls himself a "libertarian."

@Graeberwave

3 жыл бұрын

Damn.

@moot2046

3 жыл бұрын

All libertarian (AKA neoliberalism practicer) did that

@JaredCzaia

3 жыл бұрын

Thiel made/makes a lot of money from Palantir but certainly not all of it. His co-founding of Paypal and early investment in Facebook were the source of far more of his wealth before PLTR hit the stock market.

@dalton-at-work

3 жыл бұрын

@@JaredCzaia so basically "rent extraction"

@JaredCzaia

3 жыл бұрын

@@dalton-at-work Creating a system to enable online payments is value creation. Investing in a startup would also fail to meet the criteria of rent extraction. You seem to be wielding Graeber's work like a hammer and to you everything looks like a nail.

You'll be missed, David.

Very true but missing the point that this is stagnation by design we sound crazy by design and all the advances are classified and kept on the shelf to avoid escalation proliferation by design. Sad but true.