Can't live with them, can't live without them. Truth is....Mrs Shergar's a genuine performer who's a great addition to the stable.

The Brave a true racing legend,so sad how he was shipped of to stud in Japan and died of a rare disease.He will always be remembered as one of legends of the turf.

This horse is the reason I fell in love with racing when I was 5 years old

6/4 2nd favourite.....A gift from the bookies. Doesn't happen very often.

dancing brave best ive ever seen in action

Dancing brave was a machine. Interviewed after the Derby Starkey said, that Dancing brave had fallen asleep and he couldn't get him wakened in time. Dancing brave was later interviewed and said that he couldn't get Starkey wakened in time!

I think you are right. I have never seen a horse with a finish like The Brave and, you know what, I don't think anyone else has either!

I rate Miesque in the same breath as Pebbles and Skimmer. Her 87 BC win was awesome, her turn of foot on that day was electric.

I strongly agree, the drama was incredible when DB showed his unique turn of foot.

What a horse. Truly magic...

in my opinion dancing brave was the greatest middle distance horse of all time,the most blistering turn of foot,i loved this race,but his finest performance was to come in paris where he destroyed the best arc field ever assembled.

How does it disrespect other greats, Dancing Brave beat brilliant opposition, he broke track records, he had the finest turn of foot at a mile to a mile and a half and inspired a generation through his racing style of coming late and fast. Pat Eddery says he's the best he's ever ridden and his Derby will always be remembered for the race that was never won. I rate the Brave as the best.

great post - thanks.....some horse !

Followed Racing since a kid in the 70's..On the flat in my era ,Dancing Brave, El Gran Senior, Zilzal, Rainbow Quest. But Nobody tops Dancing Brave. Only Ribot, Sea Bird, Mill Reef and Brigadier Gerrard can compare from pre 80's..

my fav racehorse ever, what a machine this horse was, will never see his likes again...

Eddery's most outrageous look round came in the 1985 Champion Stakes - very cheeky, indeed!

Somebody else recently mentioned that to me, too. That Dancing Brave didn't particular take to travel well, and lost some weight coming over from Europe to America for that 86' BC Turf.

When I saw Dancing Brave race in 1986. I felt like he was the best European turf horse I had seen since Shergar back in 1981. He just looked so dominate in his 12f win's in the King George and the Arc that year, that I felt like there was no way this horse would lose at Santa Anita in the BC Turf. It's still to this day, IMO, one of the most surprising Breeders Cup results ever that Dancing Brave was not only beaten in the 86' BC Turf. But finished out of the money, also. Still can't believe it.

Whoosh!!!! What a horse. Triptych well back and she was top class. Love watching these races. Truth is we will always have our opinions and we will not all agree. Sea The Stars was a brilliant horse as was Dancing Brave. Different styles of running. STS always seemed to be holding something back while DB was electric. As to would win in a race between the two? Dancing Brave over a mile in my opinion but over further who knows. But it would be something to see.

One of lifes mysteries how after Epsom Dancing Brave was second favourite for this race. I think everyone acknowledged he should have won The Derby yet Sharastani still started favourite.,

The Greatest.. Who Knows?? Ground, Distance & Track, all horses have different optimal conditions. I Just enjoy seeing the Best from all era's. However Dancing Brave is in the Top Bracket Without Doubt, The Arc win being Exceptional

This little conversation prompted me to look again at Secretariat's Triple Crown. I'm sorry, but his Belmont performance (and the time) puts everything else into perspective. He was a freak, a monster - in a fab kinda way. There are horses - including DB - I have fond memories of, but watch Big Red at Belmont and then tell me that you've seen anything like it, anywhere... only Sea Bird and just maybe Ribot come close, but that is just extraordinary. Oh, and I'm European BTW........Be lucky.

why do people compare horses from different eras? you cannot compare them and anyone who does is not appreciative of the sport ,just enjoy and admire them for what they are great racehorses.

If I had had to put my life on a horse to win a race for me, that horse would be The Brave. So long as G.Starkey wasn't in the saddle!

The limit of his endurance, is that why DB won the arc without breaking a sweat.

Well explained, DB. Experiences in formative years later engender nostalgia which can attribute greater qualities than deserved to that which is encountered in those years. I've been trying for decades to find a surgeon who will remove my biologically attached Mtoto-coloured spectacles, but to no avail.

brilliant comment, so very true what you said..

Starkey's name will be forever linked with his 'infamous' ride on Dancing Brave in a way that Eddery's ride on El Gran Senor never will be. And yet I've always believed Eddery was the more culpable of the two.

The fact that DB was faster than the year's champion sprinter and the manner in which he beat a great arc field would suggest he was just as versatile as BG. Most people now seem to think his best trip was 12f but at the time 10f was considered his best trip. Personally I thought then and still do that 8-10f was his optimum range as nothing could touch at those trips. He raced over 12f because that's the trip of the biggest and most prestigious races.

Eddery rode a stinker getting there way too soon but as it was the Brave was made of class and showed in the Arc what finishing speed is all about,unmatched acceleration.

DB very impressive, especially when you realise that both the Beaverbrook and Aga Khan entries were running team races purely to beat him.

Fair point DB15. Racing is always looking for a horse that will transcend the sport in the hope that it will boost racing's popularity. Clearly the racing media think they've got one in STS so they've hyped him up somewhat and now many glibly claim him to be 'the best of all time' and disagreement with this view is not tolerated. STS is without doubt a high class horse but his opposition has been relatively weak and his actual performances have been some way short of an all time great imo.

Dancing Brave - best horse to watch. Fantastic turn of foot. Second in the Derby only due to massive jockey error. Should have won.

Papabill is back under a new name.

DB almost came to a standstill at 1:50 and had to catch up a hot pace, and he still won.

ah i never knew that thanks for the info sarastro.pat eddery was the man back then.shame his training career hasnt took off.but having said that you need the horses

His turn of foot in the derby lasted for 2 furlongs, DB had won the eclipse 2 weeks previous and with Edderys mistake it was more the case that DB ran a little tired in the KG at the end rather than idling in front.

Yes it does, Dancing Brave had a turn of foot that is unmatched to this very day, his speed was a freak of nature, look at his leg speed in the arc, 'when the commentator says 'but here comes Dancing Brave, his leg speed quickens and gets level with Bering, then his leg speed quickens again to go past Bering, Dancing Brave had another gear and i've never seen speed like that at the end of 1m4f

@147ard

4 жыл бұрын

@Stephen Small Golden Fleece was fast with a great turn of foot but not quite as fast as the Brave. If you can find split times on the 82 derby I'd love to know.

This guy zarakhast knows his stuff. The finest horse ever seen on a race course

Berings jockey Gary Moore said of him that he was a Super horse with a marvellous turn of foot.

DB was fantastic. As for unmatched turn of foot, I think Mtoto is right up there too.

Spot on, theres no logical way a horse could out gallop a horse like Dancing Brave, he was a record breaker, Bering ran 2:24 in his french derby and couldn't hold him off for more than a few seconds. An important factor about the Brave is that Eddery said he 'switches off' during a race and gallops all day long. If a horse was to beat DB at his peak then they would have to burn off his speed at the end.

And two losses more than (the admittedly lightly raced) Lammtarra: fascinating!

Very cheeky indeed.

Pat Edderys cheeky look round with a furlong to go, he new he was riding a special horse.

'86 2000 Guineas is back on KZread.

@08DENMAN There is nothing in th eform book to suggest that Dancing Brave would have beaten Sea The Stars over a mile or anything exceeding a mile. In fact, both ran only once at a mile - in the 2,000 Guineas - and on a similar surface. Sea The Stars ran 4 seconds faster in 2009 than Dancing Brave did in 1986. That is one helluva difference in anyone's book. We are talking about a wide margin here. Dancing Brave's Arc win was by far his best performance visually - and on all known form.

I think DB is the only horse to win the the Craven, 2000g, Eclipse, KG and Arc. A true legend.

OK final comment from me on this one. Point about Secretariat was that he was awesome on grass as well. As regards times, they can only give you an idea, but in Secretariats case we have sectionals as well which helps. My mind is open; who knows what this year will bring.......

@sleeplessinsale lol Sleepless, glad you liked it. What a horse!

if you look closely at the finish of this race, you will see that DB is level with Sharahstani with a furlong and a half to go with Triptych just behind, at the end Sharahstani is 10 lengths back with triptych 5 lengths back, Shardari ran very well and had the rail to help.

Frankel will deservedly be classed a real great but so was this horse, he was brilliant !

PS - sorry about the many 'I think'. I forgot to read it before I posted it.

I think the reason why Dancinbg Brave is held in such estem is the impact of him, the drama of him as much ass his results. George Best only ever played in one cup final in his life but look at his impact on people....equally with the Brave. It isn't achievement as much as sheer impact.

I heard recently that Harwood and co didnt know how good DB was between the age of 2 and 3 and even put him over a few hurdles at home!!! he was said to of jumped them like a natural.

Simply put: the best horse NOT to win a Derby!

Dancing Brave was a freak who most experts agree had the speed to win a July Cup yet genuinely stayed 1M4F, all this cross generational thing makes good debate and if you think back to those great holidays you've had they are just that...you forget about the sunstroke, the arguments as we have a knack of making history perfect and making it better than it was..Sea The Stars was awesome but Dancing Brave was a sexy horse (you know what i mean!) and that's why this speedball freak is so treasured.

Even when he won the select stakes at goodwood DB must of covered the last 2 furlongs in something really fast, it really showed his speed.

I certainly think he was the best because he had great all round ability, he was world class at a mile, 1m2f, 1m 4f and finished like a steam train. His guineas, eclipse and arc show his electric turn of foot against top class opposition, usually the further a horse runs the slower the finish, but DB could finish 1m 4f quicker than top sprinters, that surely defies logic, he was a unique combination of speed and stamina. Whose your favourite?

His Eclipse is on Eclipse Winners - posted by Timetraveller1955; tidily sandwiched by Pebbles and Mtoto.

if starkey hadnt screwed up at epsom no one would be doubting DB as the best ever look at his turn of foot at longchamp beating 5 or 6 world class horses this too after a long season

It was the Eclipse in which Nashwan comfortably beat Skimmer. The handicappers and the racing fraternity still struggle to evaluate Nashwan (see my earlier comment on Eclipse Winners), but I agree that he was of the highest calibre. Carson appears to rate him very highly, and taking into account the greats he rode, that's saying something.

I'm a bit surprised that someone who proclaims greatness for one horse doesn't know the story of a racing legend. It was the US Triple Crown (Belmont leg) and its here on youtube. The track record was smashed, the second horse was a proven grade one winner, and each successive quarter was faster. Accelerating at the end doesnt help against a horse who accelerates from the word go. Good luck.

@Newworldman66 Sea The Stars broke the Eclipse record when he won. Of course he had to put up a "stellar" performance. He actually quickened again ( not just staying on ) when Rip Van Winkle challenged him. RVW is essentially a speed horse and was ridden that day to do, if you like, a Dancing Brave on STS. But even AOB conceded that they had simply come up against the best horse in the last 30 years. Kinane didn't his whip in RVW's face. Johnny Murtagh said he had been beaten by a "monster."

If Bering was in this race he would of beaten DB because Bering would of been fresh and DB ran a bit tired at the end due to racing 2 weeks previous and Edderys mistakes at the bend, but when DB was fresh in the Arc he showed his brilliance. DB was unbeatable when fresh.

I got married that day and never forget who won.

Spot on 147ard. Eddery managed to get DB boxed in around 1.50 and the horse then had to expend a fair amount of energy to get out. When he got him back on an even keel he then proceeded to let DB hit the front way too soon for a 12f race. DB wasn't as impressive here as he could have been. He could have won this race on the bridle rather than having to be pushed out to win. Thankfully Eddery learned from his errors going on to ride him perfectly in the Arc.

One small point,....Zarakhast, you mentioned times. in Secretariats Derby he ran each successive quarter faster - without coming off the bridle........ My theory is that its all down to aerobic capacity.

The 1987 Eclipse would have provided the best ever attempt to gallop the finish out of DB. RP was truly top class; Mtoto sublime. How I want that time machine! Would DB have got there? Some say yes, some say no. I just don't know.

Secretariat's Belmont is quite extraordinary - no doubt about it. The problem with comparing a 31 length winner with a genuine turn of foot genius is that the latter is never going to win by far and so statistics will never reveal the full story. I suspect the truth is that no horse would have beaten Secretariat on that day at Belmont Park, while the same goes for DB on 1986 Arc day.

I actually think that Sharastani best race (including his 2 Derby wins) was his performance in the Arc. I think Stoute did a great job in getting him back on the boil after this awful performance here. I still think Sharastani was suffering from some ailment or another on this day. In the parade ground he was sweating badly and kept looking as if he was choking. I think Stoute should have pulled him from the race and ignored the inevitable 'running scared' comments which would have followed.

@zarakhast Spot on there mate. He has always prefered horses that don't have Dancing Brave in the name and horses that finished much slower.

@ThefightingCelt As regards STS's iyo 2 o/s performances, the Arc was probably his best effort but actually rates a long way behind true all time greats. As for the Eclipse STS was all out to hold off RVW and only did so after Kinane waived his whip in RVW's face as he closed to half a length causing RVW to flinch then jink to his left. RVW has gone on to overall look very ordinary.

yep second in Belmont was a multiple grade one winner in his own right. Very able horse. Secretariat took him on early in the Belmont and he couldnt go the pace - what could have? Even if they were all no hopers, the clock tells its own story.

I always think that times and winning distances don't necessarily do justice to turn of foot merchants. That's why it's so important - as you do, zara - to take into account other factors such as racing style. I'm so glad that race horses don't operate in an automaton manner. The females, in particular, always leave you wondering if they're up for a good performance. The likes of Pebbles and Indian Skimmer make you speculate that, on their day, they could beat all-comers.

In those days the UK runners were still learning alot about the travel over to the US. DB lost weight in travelling over and the California heat did for him as well as it being the end of the season. Theatrical who was 2nd was a good stone inferior to DB.

@Newworldman66, he is claiming that on another thread.

dancing braves the best flat horse ive ever seen.g.starkey was sacked after he rode a stinker in the derby.sharistani is the luckyest derby winner ever.

...... but to do that meaningfully you have to look at the other contenders and their records, agreed? The horses I mentioned all broke track records, all had a turn of foot and in the case of BG had top class form over different distances. I don't rate Arazi as the greatest for instance, but his Breeders Cup victory is the most phenomenal performance I - and many others - have ever seen. Unreal. It just means that objectively theres no such thing as the greatest. Anyway, good luck.

Don´t forget Shadari´s the older horse, a 4-y-o against the younger colt.

hehe dancing brave is my horse's grandad just found out my mam just told me

Shadari was reeling him in at the end because Pat got there too soon. A better timed run in the Arc and he was still going away from the same horses.

@Newworldman66 spot on.

Give it up, you really are fighting a losing battle.

Strongly agree, Papa has left such stupid comments on so many threads, and its all got the same theme of anti DB.

I'd be interested to hear your take on American ovals v European courses, hornybikeman. For me, nothing epitomises horse racing more than the Cesarewitch, with the horses starting in the middle of nowhere and racing over in excess of two miles on the rolling Newmarket downs. It's just wonderful and the highlight of the racing year for me in many respects.

I dont follow or study american racing much, all i ever new about secretariat is that he won the triple crown and is generally considered to be one of americas finest on dirt, i don't think its logical to compare dirt horses to turf horses.

"how (scientifically) are we supposed to compare horses from different generations ?" was my original question. You can't. The clock is the closest objective method but there are still too many variables to factor in. Just for fun check out that Belmont - was it by 31 lengths in record time? - and I'll enjoy DBs Arc once again.

Winning by 31 lenghts, the opposition must be taken into account, i must read up on this one. What was the distance and time?

It would seem that PapaBill has taken his bat and ball home.

@zarakhast The Racing Forum did not decide - it was based on what they asked friends who don't have any interest in horse-racing. A bit like asking someone to name a very famous footballer. Again, most would answer Pele or Maradona. The Racing Post asked its readers to vote for their favourite racehorse - not what they thought was the best. They received votes from all over the UK and Ireland. Thousands voted. Arkle came top - even though he last ran in 1966. Top flat horse was Brigadier Gerard

@147ard They discuss racing ; as true racing fans do, on THE RACING FORUM. We'd love to see you and your "friends" over there. You can indulge in all the banter you want. As for Dancing Brave; you will find many fans on the forum who think he was the best - and you will find many more who think differently. But the ones who love him above all others don't cry like babies when other members offer a different opinion to theirs. They are, as you would soon find, much more grown up about things.

DB should of won this on the bridle, Eddery got DB caught between fading pacemakers at 1:50 and had to catch a hot pace.

If I have seen any horse to beat Sea The Stars it's The Brave. In anything other than a very fast run race I think it would be very close. But not on a left handed track!!

STS Arc was rated 131, thats 9lbs below DB Arc.

@ThefightingCelt Please realise that to give a thumbs up you need to have an account on here and sign in, you say its your friends giving you 62 thumbs up to your comment, if that is the case why do they never leave comments. Very odd indeed.

@Kingmole2008 I think it depends on which generation you belong to, although If you asked non racing fans across the generations to name a famous flat racehorse, most would probably say Shergar, followed by Nijinsky. Those two seem to be the most well known.

my fav racehorse of all time.we shall never see his likes again...

@147ard Yes, yes and yes ! : )

@ThefightingCelt Merely pointing out your error and suggesting why you would have made such an error is not by any stretch reverse psychology. For someone to think that it is would surely be a much better example of inadequacy.