This is why I don’t usually buy Damascus or Damsteel blades. I’ve never seen a knife maker that lists the composition. Do any of them?

@KarlBAndersen

2 ай бұрын

I don't know any that don't.

A 50 minutes video comparing powder metallurgical steels to damascus? Yeeeeesss thank you :D

The results with 1095/nickel ladder pattern were surprising. I never would have guessed that there was any cutting advantage to using Damascus let alone Damascus with pure nickel.

@CSGraves

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, that was a cool tidbit to learn. Slicing better than 1095 alone! It's like when you blend different varieties of tea, it supposedly has a greater antiangiogenic effect than either tea alone rather than the weaker diluting the stronger.

Great video Larrin! We're spoiled that you're sharing all of this for free on KZread. Thanks for advancing knowledge of the knife industry

@realbroggo

9 ай бұрын

100%. This video represents many many hours of work and we really appreciate it. There's no way I could get this information, presented so well, elsewhere - thank you!

@nightrider5420

3 ай бұрын

Take a look at "Blade Forum" Larrin has loads of his work on the board and it is The Best place to go for all things knives. @@realbroggo

The damascus cutting effect has a parallel in nature. Beavers' front teeth are harder in the front than the back, so the back wears down more quickly...not sure how those would do in a CATRA test though.

Wow. Did not expect that. I'm just to the part showing the catra results of the 1095/nickel. Can't wait to watch the rest of the video. Super interesting. Thank you for all the work you put into these tests, and spreading this info to us.

I guess it’s natural to talk up the thing you’re making. Really enjoy these vids! I’d gladly send you a bar of Wootz for testing!

@KnifeSteelNerds

9 ай бұрын

That would be great!

@erikcourtney1834

9 ай бұрын

A bar of wootz 1095 and pure nickel would be very interesting. I’ve been wanting to dabble in some wootz but I’m going to fail many times. I don’t like to fail so I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place.

@erikcourtney1834

9 ай бұрын

@@-Craptastic- I completely agree with what your saying. I’m usually really good at figuring things out and making things work with a high success rate. But making steel is a whole different ballgame. I can’t predict an outcome or see what happening until a bar is made. Then followed by multiple test to find out if the mixture and procedure is right or needs tweaking. There so much that goes into making steel from scratch. Tons of different variables, not to mention figuring out the right heat treatment. Almost makes my head spin thinking about it🤦‍♂️.

@erikcourtney1834

9 ай бұрын

@@-Craptastic- lol thanks man, yeah it’s a deep rabbit hole and can get quite expensive. If I can get a recipe and procedure to get me started I might give it a go. It would be pretty awesome to produce my own steel.

Damasteel's toughness is quite impressive, 15 ft-lb at 61, it's higher than the current CPM-154 rating by 50%? reminds me the old mystery CPM-154 specimen :-)

I read the article you did on your website comparing a lot of the alloys in edge retention, and it's crazy how much someone could learn from just 1 single article. It conformed quite a few personal theories I had on the qualities certain metals gave to the alloy, and I learned at least half the amount of information of everything I knew about cutlery alloys just from one single article.

I don’t follow knives to much anymore, but this has my attention.

i'm so grateful that i live in the same age as you, this level of knowledge is priceless

Thanks Larrin for taking the time to do this study. I was searching for an answer to this exact question, not exactly "damascus vs super steels" but more or less high carbon damascus vs super steels. Im very much a form over function type of person and it flabbergasts me when someone spends thousands on a "high end" custom knife made with 1084 and 15N20 damascus, when there's modern steels that will perform better for significantly less labor.

I never knew how much I needed you to do this study - anyway, not until I was halfway through grinning from ear to ear. Thanks for debunking a whole bunch more mythology and creating a new set of useful observations makers can use to improve their craft. This was so cool. Seriously. Thanks Larrin. Gonna have to buy that book!

@CSGraves

3 ай бұрын

Can we get a video on 1095/nickel damascus with a dual grit edge? 😀

That’s the most in depth I’ve ever seen a metal testing. You have passed Legendary status and went straight to Hephaestus status. 🤘👌👊

Physics/chemistry is always surprising! It makes sense that how it is layered vs the edge would have a huge impact. Super interesting.

This is remarkable. Great job!

Great vid. As an amateur steel nerd myself I love getting factual information regarding steel attributes and performance. I love getting insight into heat treating. Too many knife users focus on the steel and forget the heat treatment. There are some crazy 'Damascus' steel myths out there that continue to perpetuate (thanks in most part of clever marketing) as most people don't understand what it really is and how it's made. Nothing beats actual research and testing. Sharp blades all.

This is fantastic information. I had a custom made with 15n20/nickel damascus in a predator pattern which left 5mm plus sections of the cutting edge with the softer nickel exposed. It proved to be non functional knife because of this. It’s neat that you had Seth Burton’s steel to test. He lives about 30 minutes away from me on Salt Spring Island. I would love to one day visit his shop.

Wow that was incredible. You should reach out to some steel manufacturers to provide you with some steels. Usually the more information there is on the topic, the more it brings attention to their product. Also, that's where you see which manufacturer has high confidence in their product when they are willing to supply materials for a third party, unbiased study comparing things to their competitors. Also, let me know for your next study, depending on economic timing, would be keen to send some materials your way.

This is why I love this channel , you can't argue with proven facts ...

Super interesting! Some big surprises in there for sure.

Amazing! That is so much work and the results a great! Thank you!

Fantastic work and information. Thank you for sharing your findings with the community.

Great video, and thank you for publishing your findings here for free. I really think progress and innovation comes from that.

Love your work, thank you for all the research! ❤ Just bought your new book and am very much looking forward to Amazon sending it to me... 👍🏻

Simply WOW! Amazing info

Fantastic work. I will be getting your new book and I will be signing up for patreon to support your work. Thank you! Thank you! thank you, Larrin!!!!

Devin Thomas knives are the absolute pinnacle of cutlery.

Very interesting, thank you for all the effort.

Awesome info Larin! Thanks for the video.

Incredibly well done and informative.

Ty for sharing your work! I myself mainly use monosteel for my knives but the few damascus knives I made share their attributes with your study 😁 Pleasure to listen to you and greetings from Germany!

Amazing. Thankyou for sharing this. A lot of work.

thanks for all the legwork,something i've always wondered 👍👍

Wow just wow you are a legend! thx for sharing so openly !!

Bravo! Very good presentation! Thank you for your research and sharing.

Great video, thank you a lot

Thank you for doing the science to make the community better informed. 👍👍

Thanks for doing the hard yards. Bought your book.

How couldn't you learn something 😄 thank you, and thanks to the patreon members 👍👍👍.

thank you for these insights!

I was hoping one day you would get to Damascus steel, Larrin. Fascinating research and very surprising. Thanks a bunch for all the hard work.

Thanks to Laird and Devin Thomas for being badasses and continuing their quest for knowledge and understanding of the most significant uses for different steals in different applications and blades Y'all are fucking awesome!!!

Thanks for all your hard work!

Amazing research

Throw your patreon link in the description! I love these studies and want to see you keep being able to do stuff like this! Also a discord linked to your patreon would be sweet!

Thank you so much for your work, You Are Awesome!

Good stuff as always sir

Fascinating, thank you for the hefty content.

Fascinating stuff, love your videos.

@knifesharpeningnorway

9 ай бұрын

Yeah i love it. Happy to see you mate 😊

@NORTHWESTKNIFEGUY

9 ай бұрын

@@knifesharpeningnorway 🙂

What a great comparison.

Really thoughtful experiments. Would like to see the toughness and Carta results of the individual components in the graph, although I know you mention it. Just like to see it for comparison. Easier to compare. Will you be publishing this in a peer reviewed journal?

Legendary video once again bro

Wow. What a deep dive. Next compare to hand forged in Japan in the old Samurai swordsmith ways

Absolutely wild results

I wonder what would happen if you combined 316L with S90V and 20V with some nickel.

I was about to buy Sakai Takayuki VG10-VG2 Coreless Damascus , but it does not have that ladder pattern damascus on it. Superb effort sir, my gratitude!

I don't know how this will apply in my life but I find it fascinating.

Thank you.

Thank you

I feel like all that new copper and steel Damascus stuff that everyone is making would be really good at this

Awesome

I was just wondering if this video came out. I just remembered asking about Damascus a while back.

Listening to this on my drive to the 2023 NZ Knife Makers Symposium....

I would love to see you do some tests with bertie retfield's Damascus desighns/compositions! He is really incredibly talented and makes really crazy beautiful interesting Damascus.

@NobodysDarling138

7 ай бұрын

Also, can you get a sample of real ancient Damascus to test? I hear we still don't know how to make it.

Great video! I wonder how this translates to sword making which uses a slicing motion rather than chopping. So the wear patterns should be quite different. I have a vintage katana made with Honsanmai steel - which has both soft and hard properties. It's also folded and heat and clay tempered. No idea how durable it is though.

Finally. I’ve been calling for testing like this for years! 👌🏻

Pfff. I came here to find out how well Tata bumpers pattern welded with shipping container sheet metal perform. What is all this s90v/20cv nonsense?? Seriously though, theres some amazing data here.

Brilliant video! have youever tried pattern welded steel with 8670 as one of the alloys?

@KnifeSteelNerds

9 ай бұрын

I haven’t. In terms of performance it should be roughly similar to L6 and 15N20 when used in a Damascus mix.

There's a Russian steel professor explaining about Fake or shitdamascus made everywhere. He also said that you can make good Damascus blades that will not rust around 2-3$ per blade.

Hey Larrin, Fantastic work again! I have a question and would value any input from you. I have been making stainless Damascus using AEB-L and 304, do you think the 304 would perform much differently than the 302? Also, from the testing that included 302 i gather that when making stainless Damascus its not necessary to inlcude a solid core layer in the final billet to ensure high quality knife steel for the cutting edge, would you say thag is accurate or would you suggest including that core layer?

>"Damascus is expensive due to high labour required" >3125 layers

Here we GOOOO

You mention that carbon diffuses very rapidly at forge welding temperatures and that the carbon content between the layers becomes homogenous for typical damascus layer counts. I know there are many applications such as Japanese chisels, san-mai knives, and axe heads where it is common to forge weld a hardenable bit to a low carbon steel. This has been done successfully historically so I'm wondering if you could shed any light on how far the carbon diffuses and if there are any heat treating techniques that should be applied to minimize the carbon from the bit diffusing out into the mild steel. If you forge welded a thin hardenable steel to a thicker mild steel is it possible that enough carbon could be drawn from the edge that the steel won't harden or the cutting performance is compromised?

"and there are many many color pictures in the book" Is that a hint at us, the audience? :P Epic results though. I too did not expect that the damascus cutting effect was true, at least not to this extent.

@KnifeSteelNerds

9 ай бұрын

I like color pictures

Great work, in your conclusions you say that layer count did not affect edge retention, but also that ladder pattern improves edge retention. Do you confirm that even though there might no longer remain a visible pattern because of 3000+ layers, there is still that "saw-like" effect which is beneficial for edge retention ?

So which damascus steel composition should we go after in the market for survival camping?

Just found this channel, and loved the data. One question/suggestion. Are you familiar with the @BreakingTaps channel? He has a Scanning Electron Microscope that might allow you to obtain some even more interesting data or at least pictures.

Incredible work as always, Larrin! And such a surprise. I'm sure we all wonder what ApexUltra and nickel would do.

Was the damascus cutting effect only limited to the preparation with nickel? I thought you only saw it in one preparation? Also, one of the conclusions it seems is that the combination of 2 steels decreases the toughness of the tougher between the two, but I am not clear on what happens to edge retention compared to the components. You compared the different preparations beautifully. Expanding on comparison of patterns brings up the question: is there an equation that predicts a pattern that increases toughness or edge retention? That would require someone really smarter than I.

Hi Dr. Thomas, does your new book talk about any of the efforts to recreate historical Wootz steel?

@KnifeSteelNerds

9 ай бұрын

There is a chapter on that

@StereoTyp0

9 ай бұрын

@@KnifeSteelNerds nice, I'm excited to check it out!

I would love to find a pocket knife with 3V/154CM but I rarely see info on what the composition is on a Damascus knife on a given site/shop.

@KnifeSteelNerds

4 ай бұрын

If it was 3V/154CM Damascus it would say so.

41:28 i noticed you did two hardness's for damasteel and did toughness testing on both but only edge retention testing on the lower hardness one. Was just curious why the higher one was not on the esge retention chart? I also noticed the protocols that were used for the damasteel were slighly different than the ones from damasteels datasheet. Can you explain why? I can make assumptions but id rather not.

@KnifeSteelNerds

9 ай бұрын

I’m going to do a separate video on Damasteel heat treating

@tacticalcenter8658

9 ай бұрын

@@KnifeSteelNerds nice, looking forward to it.

When restacking the 1095/nickel combo is it a concern to have nickel layers adjacent to each other for forge welding? Will the nickel forge weld to itself in these circumstances or does there need to be additions made when restacking?

My intuition tell me tight twist patterns would perform better than others in the toughness tests.

So all in all which combination has the best hardness, edge retention and toughness?

Did your father have any thoughts on the findings, being a master smith and well-known damascus knife maker? (I was also surprised that layer count had no real impact on edge retention in the AEB-L/154CM study... I thought for sure it would make some difference.) I have to be honest, I've always loved the way that damascus blades looked. I defy anyone to say that they're not beautiful... ...But... I never really considered them serious use knives and shied away from buying them because it just didn't seem likely that it could hold up anywhere near as well as purpose-built or traditional knife steels in edge retention.

@KnifeSteelNerds

9 ай бұрын

Maybe I can do a followup interview with him for the channel

@matchesburn

9 ай бұрын

@@KnifeSteelNerds If he'd be willing, that would be interesting. Having both the maker/smith side and the metallurgy side perspective would be fascinating.

@chriswebb3018

9 ай бұрын

​@@KnifeSteelNerdshaving your father on as a follow up video would be interesting.

Very interesting. Now for the obvious next question: who wants to make me a 1095 and Nickel Damascus bird and trout knife? 😁

For straight razors, whats the best steel? Thank you for doing this BTW!

Im super curious about difficulty in sharpening between the different steels ? Because I find that these steels with higher edge retention people have a hard time sharpening and there for never use the knife once it has dulled because its so difficult to sharpen .

This makes me really want to make some hunters or western chefs from the 1095/nickel combo.

is the lesson here that nickel is made of literal magic?

Should be a guest judge on forged in fire. If they are neck in neck, look at the micro structure for the tie break. Your carbides were a molecule too big Jeff, and thats why we are sending you home.

Keep the super (hard to sharpen) steels. 1095 or 14c28n only.

Twisted damascus makes similar effect as ladder? Twisted and binding, self inforced.

I wonder how Wootz Damascus holds up vs modern steels.

I wonder what the layer boundaries would look like under an electron microscope. Hey @BreakingTaps any chance for a collab here?

I'm only half way through, but is there a reason your toughness or edge retention are always plotted against hardness? Intuitively I feel the ideal knife combination would be tough plus high edge retention, so a plot of that could be interesting to help select steel combinations.

@KnifeSteelNerds

8 ай бұрын

I have other videos/articles that plot edge retention vs toughness but I didn’t end up doing so for this one. There’s always a lot of choices when it comes to what to show and how to describe it and in what order.

Science! 🔥 🗡️

Interesting,it might be worth taking a good look at Heavin Forge Pantzer 36 by Master smith Kevin Harvey from South Africa

@KnifeSteelNerds

9 ай бұрын

Panzer 36 is a steel identical to N690 but I don’t typically test finished knives. Instead I test coupons (and knife coupons).