So if we accept that both is to some extent true, that pop culture is a way in which capitalist ideology reproduces it self, but also, that people are to some extent creative on their own, isn't the question then to what extent "free" creativity happens and to what extent thinking is already formed by the capitalist society we get socialized in? Also I would keep in mind, that if creative work leads to an uprising, it is usually heavily repressed by company's and the law. The spaces of creativity which open up can be seen just as a certain capitalist society's point of development. Also it might be, that what seems to be "free" art, usually only appears just to an extent which is not critical enough to cause an overturn of capitalism. So to say, an illusion of freedom that actually strenghtens and stabilazes capitalism. Taking this into account, I come to the conclusion, that Adorno ist basically right. If I'm wrong there has to be a mechanism working against the full control of capitalist ideology, allowing contrary thoughts. I'd appreciate your critique on my thoughts.

@universityquickcourse6623

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, good analysis. To interrogate further, you can look to the work of Antonio Gramsci and the concept of hegemony. The various conceptions of ideology basically describe the way dominant ideas are constructed to further the interests of those in power (see our video on Althusser). For the Italian Marxist, Antonio Gramsci, the hegemony of ideas accomplished domination not by coercion or force but by consent---what he called, common sense (see our video on Gramsci and hegemony). The hegemony of the ruling class is at continuing risk of being destabilized and, certainly during a crisis, collapses, and is reconstituted and recomposed. It is a dynamic process. It is not simply a case that individuals are brainwashed. Neither is it the case that ruling class hegemony is on the verge of collapse.

@truthhurts79

4 жыл бұрын

The illusion of Marxism

@zeenuf00

3 жыл бұрын

"Isn't the question then to what extent "free" creativity happens and to what extent thinking is already formed by the capitalist society we get socialized in?" No, because the presumption is already built into this question that creativity is in some way automatically limited by 'capitalist society,' which it is not. The fact that not everyone is free to be as creative as they might be because of 'capitalist society' doesn't mean that some people (quite a few people, actually) don't stretch far beyond whatever perceived 'boundaries' might be there because of this amorphous thing called 'capitalism.' Critical Theory is almost always a set of wide presumptions looking for 'proof.' And generally, the 'proofs' are bullshit with perhaps a kernal of truth that are used to justified the presumptions. OK, so we live in a capitalist society that limits our whatever. Fine. All societies have limitations. AND??? lol!! And anyway, what does 'socialized' mean? What does 'capitalist society' mean? On the one hand, the Critical Theorists - like the postmodernists after them - claim to be questioning our assumptions about everything, but then they use these terms like 'society' and 'socialized' and 'capitalism' as if they're truth assertions that everyone agrees upon lol!! It's like radical skepticism 'except about these things over here.' 'We're going to deconstruct all your assumptions and everything you think you know about our 'society,' but we're all going to agree on the same definition of 'society.' In this way, Critical Theory claims to be 'Critical,' but what it does in a very hamfisted way is dance around its own assumptions. For example; isn't 'society' a terribly amorphous word? What the hell does 'society' mean? 'Society' always struck me as a bureaucratic idea on paper - an idea of the way things 'should' be, according to people who think humanity should be organized in a certain way . More accurately, I think we live in CULTURES - which are far more complex and made up of many aspects that are intertwined- religion, music, art, commerce, technology, etc. And yet, Critical Theorists and their bastard step children the postmodernists throw this incredibly reductive word 'society' around, and when I ask them 'What do you mean by society?' they look at me like 'What do you mean what do I mean?' lol!! Mostly, these people are some flavor of Marxists who are looking for reasons to justify their worldview. It's not hard to figure out when you examine THEIR assumptions.

@stevenf5902

3 жыл бұрын

I strongly recommend that you look into a work called Anti-Oedipus

@qbek_san

2 жыл бұрын

Your opinion is too dogmatic. "Illusion of freedom" is an manipulative narrative. Freedom can be measured. Freedom of speech, freedom over your own body, freedom to travel, access to education, high paying jobs, to culture etc. You treat illusion of freedom as a fact, base everything on that opinion yet fail to provide an evidence. Another manipulative opinion is that mass culture is intentionally manipulated and enforced. We live in capitalism. We can choose what we listen and produce. No one forbids anyone what they listen or compose. Preferences are organic and result of our preferences that we all choose. That's our human nature. Not a conspiracy of elites to make us stupid. That's ridiculous. Trying to change that, revolting against organic, mass culture is actually authoritarian, elitist intervention to override popular culture. Frankfurt School is so manipulative. They literally try to solve non-existing problem with a new solution that actually fits the description of their declared problem.

Heirarchy favours top down approach. It dumbs those below further down. Any dissent is either cultured, stipulated or dismissed, subdued, punished, eliminated. The tragedy is, more than 99% of the people are victims of this architecture!! The lesson: Allowing Freedom of expression is of utmost importance to the health and benefit of such an architecture!! If supression of expression becomes an excess, it might lead to destabilization.

@zeenuf00

3 жыл бұрын

"Heirarchy favours top down approach. It dumbs those below further down." This is 100% an assumption.

One simple expression of this is the tragedy of Kurt Cobain, being the culmination of the complete dehuminization of the human expression in music. His story will be forgotten, swept under the rug by an industry hoping to capitalize off of his contribution to its formless mass.

@flowrepins6663

Жыл бұрын

he is light version of dead from mayhem, check that band, most members were killed or arrested. varg vikerness and euronymous ...

Can you add a bibliography

sir .theodor's cultural industry... is it possible to explain

@onefootoutthedoor9937

3 жыл бұрын

Being "Israeli"

I bet Adorno was a right laugh at parties.

@LesterBrunt

Жыл бұрын

I mean he wrote this after the nazis tried to kill him, leading up and during the second world war, not much to laugh about.

There has always been a certain amount of attempting-to-fit-in. It is now being used against us. THAT is the point that I see. When talking about the masses, one does not talk about classical music, as it is seen as the music of the cultivated. I'm not overly fond of it myself. I have seen, over the past half-century, a handful of creative individuals, most all of whom will tell you that they were heavily influenced by x, y, or z. Which means that they are not as creative as we tend to give them credit. Overwhelmingly, though, I have seen people copying other people's music an styles. I'm sick to death of bands that "cover" other people's work. A term which means that they cannot come up with their own music, so they steal someone else's and change it somewhat. Protesting that you are not being conditioned by the establishment doesn't change the reality of the modern situation. To truly be YOU, you have to get away from everything that is mainstream.

@michaelwu7678

4 жыл бұрын

HC Craig Hey there, I just wanted to encourage you to give classical music another shot. I’m a very passionate lover of it myself, but it’s quite difficult to fully get into, with all the theory and distance from modern culture. Very much worth it though! You’ll never feel the pressure of the culture industry or listen to anything that’s derivative, since what has survived to our own time is only the best of the best. And you’ll never run out of new music to listen to since there are so many different composers, genres, and styles over a 500+ year period. I hope you enjoy it!

@zeenuf00

3 жыл бұрын

"When talking about the masses, one does not talk about classical music, as it is seen as the music of the cultivated." What do you mean by 'the masses,' and how do you know what 'the masses' listen to? Sorry, but these things are assumptions. "most all of whom will tell you that they were heavily influenced by x, y, or z. Which means that they are not as creative as we tend to give them credit. " Influence does connote a lack of creativity. "To truly be YOU, you have to get away from everything that is mainstream." No, this is just you thinking that. Actually, you sound more resentful than anything else.

@zeenuf00

3 жыл бұрын

"Protesting that you are not being conditioned by the establishment doesn't change the reality of the modern situation." Assuming that the person who denies being 'conditioned' IS in fact conditioned? Assuming that this thing called 'the establishment' is a static thing, and not something that is amorphous and constantly changing? What you don't seem to understand, is that your worldview probably runs on more assumptions than the people you criticize.

i wonder why the hell people are not talking about this!

@bilbobaggins4710

4 жыл бұрын

Hi

@yonizzler

4 жыл бұрын

Proof the social engineering works!

@SgtPepper1917

4 жыл бұрын

Because this is intellectually lazy and dishonest? Going after the lowest hanging fruit is what this is. The title of the video is criticism of the Frankfurt school of critical theory, but instead it's some pointless argument about a random aesthetic opinion of some Marxist philosopher. Where is the actual argument against the influence of power structures, capitalist and communist alike, that stifle individualism and creativity?

@truthhurts79

4 жыл бұрын

Everything undesirable in America is happening because of this....neo sjw marxist

@zeenuf00

3 жыл бұрын

@@SgtPepper1917 "Where is the actual argument against the influence of power structures, capitalist and communist alike, that stifle individualism and creativity? " The assumption built into this question is that both things stifle creativity. I make the opposite assumption that capitalism actually promotes and reinforces creativity.

Very well said and very simply.

What is the title of this book?

@universityquickcourse6623

4 жыл бұрын

Dialectic of Enlightenment: Philosophical Fragments by Theodor Adorno and Max Horkheimer

Adorno was clearly totally ignorant when it came to the history of music. Shockingly ignorant. Laughably ignorant. If he were still alive and outside of the inferno, he could surely still not answer the question of what period in Western music history--or any music history--did the thing he mention not take place? He simply described the natural tendency, easily observable in any era (had he taken the time to look) and ascribed to them causes that accorded with his Marxist views. This, of course, plays well to his audience, and, unfortunately, has become gospel today in the popular culture. But that does not make any less a false idea.

@allseeingry2487

3 жыл бұрын

I know if he had heard no no no no no no no no no there’s no limit by 2 unlimited or I’m blue dabadebbado he would have torn that shit up

@LukeLovesRose

2 жыл бұрын

No. These people just hate white European Christians

@DarkAngel2512

2 жыл бұрын

Music is one of the best inventions and is why some people didnt commit suicide. It's a bridge to foreign cultures and it's also an aid in helping depression via dance. I couldnt imagine a world void of music. Unthinkable.

@paradiddlemcflam7167

6 ай бұрын

Yeah, and the fact that he was saying this about popular music within exactly that timeframe, arguably, that popular music was at its highest peak of both technical skill, musical innovation, and diversity of type, makes it even mroe laughable.

One key aspect that kinda nullifies this critique is that Adorno’s ideas on the culture industry are not some stand alone idea but part of a much larger work that explores how the enlightenment could lead to the holocaust. The culture industry is just one tiny aspect of the larger cultural forces that the nazis took to their logical conclusion.

@StegoKing

7 ай бұрын

The world was nothing BUT holocausts before the enlightenment. You're spreading ill-conceived religious propaganda, mate.

How can he critique music. Music is a healer and it bridges people in terms of foreign music. Music is my life.

@flowrepins6663

Жыл бұрын

today music is definitely frankfurt school worked, rap and pop have people that cant play or sing or anything no skills... however 80s songs and classicals music is art

@DarkAngel2512

Жыл бұрын

@@flowrepins6663 yes and no. I dont think it's a conspiracy why music is crap these days. Its likely to do with people make more commercial stuff as more money can be made off it as it hits a wider target audience. And there is less risk making something you arent sure sells as well. But there is def lots of decent music out there. Just have to dig for it

@LesterBrunt

Жыл бұрын

Stop and think why it is that you seem offended that somebody dared to not like popular music. Isn’t that kind of authoritarian? Kinda like music is pure and perfect and any criticism will take away from its purity? Isn’t that kinda nazi? That is what Adorno tries to shed light on, that culture has all kinds of authoritarian mechanisms that enforces sameness and obedience, music being just one facet of that giant societal mechanism. And the nazis took that mechanism to its logical conclusion. Just look how many similarities there are to popular music and nazism, the giant stages, the spectacle over substance, the mechanical reproduction of everything, the total submission to the collective, anonymity through conformity, worship of the start artist, the fuhrer. Just like the nazis used all facets of society to propagate their messages and cut off any alternative points of view so does the popular music infects every facet of society, leaving no way out, in every store, every passing car, evert movie or series, everywhere you are constantly bombarded with the sameness of popular music, setting in stone this expectation and entrancing the mind into obedience to detail. This is exactly how nazi propaganda could work, it is exactly how so called smart and cultured people could commit atrocity, precisely BECAUSE they were cultured and smart.

@DarkAngel2512

Жыл бұрын

@@LesterBrunt I dont have an issue if people dont like pop music. As a bit of an elitist hip hop head I'm not a huge fan of it myself. Also you dont seem to understand what authoritarianism is. Its when you try to dictate to others and tell them what they can and cant do or try to control them. How you got Nazi from my comment is bizarre. What a strange rant lol

@LesterBrunt

Жыл бұрын

@@DarkAngel2512 That is the whole point of Dialectics of the Enlightenment, to explain the rise of the nazis.

#1 critic of the Frankfurt School? They’re a bunch of squares.

@amraceway

3 жыл бұрын

@An Deo What rubbish you spout.

@jht3fougifh393

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah this... was not at all a good video showcasing the biggest criticisms of critical theory.

You know, it helps to talk to someone who actually knows something about music, rather than listen to some Marxist crank like Adorno lol!! Let's say someone makes the claim that pop music usually has elements like 'A, B and C,' and that for the most part, songwriters are 'constrained' by the presence of A, B and C in terms of whether or not their songs become popular with 'the masses.' (Whatever the word 'masses' means.) One could claim that such a constraint is an aspect of 'capitalist culture' (again, whatever that means) and a reflection of the 'power structures' that perpetuate the capitalist machine of the music industry and blah blah blah. BUT . . . Let's take one of the aspects of A, B and C. For example - A CHORUS that repeats. 99.999% of pop music has a chorus that repeats. Is this a capitalist constraint? No. It's because the element of REPETITION is something that the human brain instinctively connects with. And that element of REPETITION goes as far back as the earliest cultures, who used the element of REPETITION to carry their mythologies and belief systems in the form of poetry and song. People tend to remember things that are repeated over and over again, and in cultures that were preliterate or had low literacy rates, the oral method of repetition of certain themes combined with certain sounds helped to perpetuate or reinforce certain ideas. One should remember that the Iliad and the Odyssey were primarily SUNG to small audiences and groups of people. In fact, this was the beginning of what we know as western music. Fast forward, and the Troubadour poets of Europe did the same thing. Or, why do we hear the same chord sequences over and over and over again in pop music? Why do we hear the same chord sequences in an old Celtic folk tune that we hear in a major motion picture soundtrack? Why do we hear dissonance in a motion picture soundtrack that should be displeasing to the human ear, but somehow isn't? WHY isn't it displeasing? Take a diminished chord as an example. On its own, a diminished chord usually doesn't sound all that pleasing. But in the right chord sequence, it can sound quite pleasant. Why is the old standard 1-4-5 chord sequence in punk music so pleasing to a lot of people? Is it because we've been conditioned by the capitalist power structures of the music industry to believe they're pleasing? LOL!! Sorry, but we've been listening to the same chord sequences for thousands of years, so I don't think that's the answer. It's NEUROLOGICAL. Music has a neurological effect on us, and people tend to be pattern-based in terms of memory and cognition. Critical Theory is a bunch of reductive tripe.

@krinkle909

3 жыл бұрын

Adorno had a background in music. He was also a composer.

@slau330

3 жыл бұрын

thanks for your input, helped me to produce a counterargument in my essay.

@LesterBrunt

Жыл бұрын

@@krinkle909 Not just any composer, he was a student of Alban Berg, who was Schoenberg’s star pupil.

Hi there. If you are actually interested in critical theory, go read it! The argument made here has been made for decades, and is presented here in it's most simplistic form.

@universityquickcourse6623

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you for your comment. The purpose of this channel is not to go in-depth---hence, the byline, "a simple explanation." The purpose is to present the topics in the most simplified manner by way of an introduction. If you feel there's something missing, you are welcome to comment to that end.

Did you actually listen to Trout Mask Replica???

@amraceway

3 жыл бұрын

And?

@coreyjames1202

3 жыл бұрын

​@@amraceway Annndd… of the albums referenced at 1.53, trout mask replica as an example is literally the antithesis of the entire first minute of unpacking Adorno's argument of mainstream music, and doesn't support the KZreadr's/Adorno's point. Just an observation.

@amraceway

3 жыл бұрын

@jhan bass For what the brillance of the folk at the Frankfurt School.? One Dimensional Man is a pretty good critique of modern society and alienation.

I skip this at 2 minutes 31 and will get myself the completed works of T. Adorno.

its a huge leap to call a critique of Adornos thoughts on culture as criticism of Critical Theory

@lefterismagkoutas4430

Жыл бұрын

It is literally one of his prime examples to support Critical Theory in some topics. I wouldn't say it is such a huge leap when the foundations for such a theory are so bad.

This whole discussion seems rather pointless once you realize that the industry follows the audience (rather than the other way around), and that music is primarily an aesthetic matter, not a political one.

@universityquickcourse6623

4 жыл бұрын

Adorno definitely had a biased perspective on music ---classical vs. "popular" music dichotomy and his unsophisticated valorization of the former and denigration of the latter. This bias was borne of unacknowledged elitism. That being said, much of music---across the genres---is designed to be highly commercial/formulaic (American Idol and the Voice are naked examples of an uninspired industry pumping out this kind of content). Much music also contains both overt and covert political aspirations (from Ludwig von Beethoven to Jean Sibelius to Woody Guthrie to Pete Seeger to Bruce Springsteen to Willie Nelson to Eminem). Thanks for commenting.

@CIMAmotor

4 жыл бұрын

@@universityquickcourse6623 On the subject of high and low culture Adorno seems to follow JS Mill's contention that ‘It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied.’

@SgtPepper1917

4 жыл бұрын

@@CIMAmotor well how goes the saying? Ignorance is bliss

@kategoss5454

3 жыл бұрын

There is no democracy in the industry; there are "focus groups" and "demographics", not participation. So it is meaningless to say "the industry follows the audience" since there is no "following", no journey taken by the industry and audience together, but a set of ideas ingrained in materials and conditioned by the power relations directing the production of these. The ideas of the producers may be directed towards a perceived audience or public, but they are the ideas of the producers.

@zeenuf00

3 жыл бұрын

@@universityquickcourse6623 "Adorno definitely had a biased perspective on music " READ: Marxist

Corruptor

Here did they find this narrator? Robotic, doesn't natural.

Adorno was a luddite.

It sounds like you’ve internalized the commands of these, your oppressors.

Bach, Wagner, Beethoven, Mozart. All sounded the same. Chaps in wigs waving sticks. I’m critical of his theory.

Bach, Wagner, Beethoven, Mozart. All sounded the same. Chaps in wigs waving sticks. I’m critical of his theory.

@grafplaten

3 жыл бұрын

If you think those four composers "all sounded the same," you probably need to have your ears checked as soon as possible.