Because this is being mentioned a lot: I didn't forget to bring up the velocity of the horse. Like Jason Kingsley brought up in our recent conversation, on horseback you have to favor accuracy over power to not only reduce the chance of missing the target but also to avoid hitting your own horse. The velocity of the horse can theoretically add to the attack, but mainly for a horizontal forward swing or a rising cut. Shown in those painting is what looks like a more or less vertical downward blow onto the helmet, so the forward momentum of the horse wouldn't add much. Good feedback though, I like seeing discussions like that in the comments.

@LastEuropaKiss

2 ай бұрын

I think in the one of the horse rather than slashing down into the helmet, it looks like he was using the sword as a "lance" and has stabbed it through the helmet. Would that have been possible with a sword on a horse with velocity? Possibly I am incorrect, but that's how it looks to me.

@Skallagrim

2 ай бұрын

@@LastEuropaKiss Chances are the curved shape of the helmet would make the thrust glance off. The only chance would be to hit the visor dead-on, and maybe slip into the eye opening.

@the_mad_fool

2 ай бұрын

Looking at the painting, the cut isn't entirely vertical. In fact, it seems to be a diagonal cut thrown backhand, and the other guy is also coming in from the other direction. So the impact is effectively at twice the speed of a horse at full gallop, swung semi-horizontally in a trajectory that would not hit his own horse if he misses. The result certainly seems unlikely, but artists are far more likely to paint something rare than something commonplace and mundane.

@Skallagrim

2 ай бұрын

@@the_mad_fool Right, that cut would have some added velocity from the gallop. Either way, on a helmet like that I'm convinced the blade would break before it actually cuts into it.

@DariusBaktash

2 ай бұрын

@@Skallagrim Considering lances and impact, is there a possibility that there was a mistranslation in the weapon itself (at the time of illustration)? Something like a polearm was used in a moment where dismounting (for proper use) wasn't viable and so it became confused with a sword by an observer?

My take, having done a decade of HEMA and reviewing hundreds of these illustrations, is that the slices are a way of demonstrating to the reader that there is damage being done by a specific figure. Because *blood* might certainly be coming from the person IRL after head hits, even without a cut through steel. But if you just show blood it isn't clear who's done what to whom. Showing the cut identifies the attacker as responsible for this. And it was often important in these illustrations to show which person was hurting the other. They were part of story telling, and often related to Bible passages or Authurian myths. So the illustrator was essentially dumbing it down for the reader.

@atom8248

2 ай бұрын

Another thing is that often these painting depict earlier tales, the Iliad would say "and then Achilles cut this dude up", but medieval artists generally had no knowledge of what older armor looked like so they just depicted the armor that was in fashion at the time, and as such you get swords cutting through plate armor in art.

@ShuajoX

2 ай бұрын

Yeah, I was gonna say, one of those illustrations looked like David & Goliath in medieval armor.

@Glimmlampe1982

2 ай бұрын

​@@atom8248it's not so much about they didn't know how it looked, they deliberately painted as contemporary. It was a method to teach the biblical stories. For example there's, I think a letter, were a priest gives advice to a young woman and tells her she should walk through town and look at the people, imagining them as the persons in the Bible.

@greghenrikson952

2 ай бұрын

So for the Italian Ms, which is BNF Nouvelle acquisition française 5243 Guiron le Courtois, the story being told at 45v is part of the knight-errant story of Guiron le Courtois in the Aurthurian myths. If you have the time to dig into the text, I'm sure that illustration is of someone killing another figure, and the art makes it clear he's really dead. If they insisted on realism (as they did in the fight books), then you'd have to take his helmet off and stab him to make extra sure.

@lscibor

2 ай бұрын

Medieval art was heavily conventional for a very long time. Most of those illustrators couldn't just paint whatever they felt like, or what they've seen on the parchment. They usually had convention to follow. Especially that parchment and paints were expensive, and usually not his own, but of monastery, for example. There's famous scene of Jesus getting captured in Getsemani, I believe from Byzantium ~800 AD, showing bunch of weird pole weapons wielded by the mob. And these weird weapon set gets repeated in art all over Europe in this scene for few hundred of years.

So, essentially, this is the medieval equivalent of TV shotguns physically hurling people 10ft back through the air?

Love the use of the shield with "It depends" written on it.

@grimgorkeisenpelz9392

2 ай бұрын

Me too! "It depends" is most of the time the only right answer to many questions floating around. Any other answer does not consider the issue fully.

@motagrad2836

2 ай бұрын

I noticed that as well and commented before I saw your post. The posts, matrix maximized 😁

@seanbeckett4019

2 ай бұрын

I know, right! 😄👍💥

@enigma9971

2 ай бұрын

Imagine having a relic shield named "It Depends" haha

@SaberusTerras

2 ай бұрын

Definitely a solid defense to hide behind. A beautiful metaphor and fun visual gag.

As someone who works with tool steel daily I can't see a lever of that length accelerating enough in one hand so cut through that length of steel. I can see it caving the helmet in and maybe even causing severe trauma cause it wouldn't cushion properly anymore but I can't see swords as light as they are cutting the way that gets depicted

@foldionepapyrus3441

2 ай бұрын

Indeed, though you do have to wonder if it could still be real enough - depicted in part because it happens. I'd say it is clear the artwork is stylised and somewhat exaggerating the effect to sell the story in the image, but the core concept seems plausible enough to me that it probably did happen. Doesn't take much force to cold cut steel sheet with a chisel, so every now and then the right combination of factors could lead to such a thing. However more an indication of the quality and lack of maintenance than anything else I'd suggest... But with lots of time to get corroded on the long campaign and potentially lower quality materials and the Friday night/Monday morning build/repair quality I don't think it is truly impossible. With how many helmets we believe would have been made and commonly worn and yet how few are found/preserved we can't really know. But I'd think it quite likely that older armour would get issued/purchased as better than nothing - especially helmets as they are more universally sized than other armour - pad to fit... So a really old, extra thin many times repaired bit of armour may just meet a much better armour busting blade profile and higher quality steel than would exist for many decades after it was made - in the same way you don't expect a WW1 tank to survive a modern tank battle - being barely able to protect from small arms fire...

@MasterOfBaiter

2 ай бұрын

@@foldionepapyrus3441 thing is that you would eventually arrive at cut length of close to a decimeter if you cut even just 1 cm in. Cutting that length with a 2pound hammer would already be ludicrous imagine with a way softer inpact do to how a sword is balanced. The analog I could imagine for the scenario would be maybe the rivets giving up and that creating the actual gap where a blade may wander through. But with the mechanics of a sword it just seems supernatural to me.

@littlekong7685

2 ай бұрын

@@MasterOfBaiter I was going to say, joint fatigue is far more likely than a breach vs a sword. 1st hit pops the final rivet, second strike hits the gap. Same as an attack on the great helm, perhaps in a freak incident the sword found a previously created gap in a vent or a seam and skewered the defenders face killing him, this was so remarkably rare on peer on peer combat (more likely to end in grappling or surrender by exhaustion) that is was immortalized, but the artist can't show that, so the sword goes through the helmet to indicate a fatal strike (Since in realty maybe 4 inches got through the gap)

@NDOhioan

2 ай бұрын

I've always speculated that, if *any* sort of one-handed weapon could reasonably be expected to cut a helmet, it would have to be a *very* sturdy axe of some sort. Something like a hatchet or a horseman's axe. Even then, though; it would have to either be a flimsy helmet, or the axeman would have to land a *very* lucky blow to a blemished part of a strong helmet (which wasn't totally unheard of in medieval metallurgy, due to impurities and whatnot.) Even then, though, it'd be far more reliable to just use an axe with a hammer or pick at the back, and flip it to use that back end when fighting heavily-armored opponents. IIRC, there are records of halberds and poleaxes cutting helmets, but those also hit way harder and had heavier axe blades (as they're intended for two-handed use.) That being said, a stout-enough axe could double as a bludgeon in a pinch, so even if it doesn't cut it's still gonna suck to get hit by it.

@henriknemeth3370

2 ай бұрын

@@MasterOfBaiter Would something like a really powerful hydraulic press with a blade attached be able to achieve that cut in your opinion?

You gotta respect how Skall actually uses historical examples and info for his videos.

@Skallagrim

2 ай бұрын

I mean, of course... otherwise I'd just be making stuff up.

@tide7107

2 ай бұрын

​@@Skallagrim nice argument senator, why don't you back it up with a source?

@Skallagrim

2 ай бұрын

@@tide7107 Senators using sources? What kind of outlandish utopia are you expecting here? :D

@Kreinsamer

2 ай бұрын

@@tide7107 My source is that I made it the fuck up.

@tide7107

2 ай бұрын

@@Kreinsamer imagine a world, Kreinsamer, free of cancel culture, a world where nobody can call me out for my outlandish claims!

in "El quijote de la mancha" there's a moment where they mook this concept "look Sancho these stories where a youngter kill a giant with a knife are mere fantasy, you need a hero like me for that feat (said the quijote an scrawny old man)"

@nahuelmat

2 ай бұрын

Gotta love Don Quijote

@JimmyChangaification

Ай бұрын

El quijote?

So unrelated to this discussion but I after all these years, I still love Skall’s Valsgärde (spelling?) helmet reproduction. The black steel with brass decorations and the panels; so beautiful. Maybe not as fancy as the original but so incredible

There is also the fact armour may have been used in several battles and whilst maintenance on them may be carried out it would not be brought back to the same level as an armorer would perform. As shoes may have cardboard put in to cover holes in their soles in modern times so armour may have been patched with less than adequate materials.

I love that so much silly version of dogs and cats in medieval works.

And the Occam's Razor argument would simply be that people are smart enough to engineer weapons and armor that are both effective in their intended roles. Thus, any cleavings that happened would be exceptional events. I could see a steel blade vs a rusty iron helm leading to a critical failure in a helm. Such a rare event could even become a saying: "I hit him so hard it split his head". A common person could use as a boast, so we have to be careful that historical recordings are not legendary, can be corroborated, etc. undoubtedly it happened, but in all likelihood, not often.

I've often wondered wether a strike to a helmet could prove to be the final straw that pulls apart a weld that didn't quite take, which would leave a long linear hole that might look like it was cut open.

@7heTexanRebel

2 ай бұрын

Someone finding that split weld: "boy im glad i didn't run into the guy that cut that helmet in half. guys check out this helment, some dude just splitting through heads helmet and all!"

@MrBottlecapBill

2 ай бұрын

Most helmets were not forge welded. They'd be a single piece of shaped steel or multiple pieces riveted. The metal is too thin to be forge welded in my non blacksmithing opinion lol. Of course that doesn't mean some unscrupulous vendor couldn't have done it. They wouldn't be in business for long if they did I suspect. That last thing you want to do it piss of armed soldiers.

@spamhonx56

2 ай бұрын

@@MrBottlecapBill IIRC, a lot of helms with midribs or prominent central angles (think norman nasal helms) were made of two parts put together like an easter egg. Some are clearly riveted together with additional pieces of metal over the seams, others have no such rivets, and are too tall to have been dished from a single piece of metal.

@rexbarron4873

2 ай бұрын

@@MrBottlecapBill www.gutenberg.org/files/60767/60767-h/60767-h.htm#Page_147

Very nice vid! I certainly wouldn't want to be the guy who had to rely on a few mm of steel to protect him from a heavy battleaxe swing to the skull, whether it cut through or not.

@off6848

2 ай бұрын

Either way it’s over for dent-cels

Oh man I forgot that bit when you invited Sean ! Damn this man's hits feel like artillery strikes

I suspect that the issue is rare instances of hysterical strength, like the well attested accounts of people lifting cars off of loved ones. There’s also a well documented case in the Napoleonic wars of a saber blow splitting a Cuirassier’s helmet. An event like this in battle would create a sensation and be remembered in the popular culture of the time, and would thus create a legend that could be referenced in artwork. Honest tales of “so-and-so splitting a helmet” would be retold, and become a byword for strength and battle prowess, and then artists would show similar feats to emphasize the strength and battle prowess of this or that artistic subject.

Not too sure if you'd see this Skal, been a viewer for years and years now. I think it'd be really cool to see your breakdown of what we really know about certain weapons and tactics, like how much do we really know or what have we just assumed and made up. Love the work.

@M.M.83-U

2 ай бұрын

This sound like a great idea.

12:09 That arrow was such great detail!

I remember finding out in my late teens that there were helmet cutting competitions, and looking it up. They were using medieval Japanese helmets and modern katana. The longest cut on record at the time was like 4cm. That really altered my perspective on what swords were capable of.

@PJDAltamirus0425

2 ай бұрын

Seriously? Got to be reproductions. There is no way a country would just casually damage a piece of history like that.

I really liked the breakdown of all the different factors to consider. It really supports the conclusion. I also enjoy your presenting style, and this video made me laugh. Side note: I'm currently playing a video game from 2000 called Vagrant Story, which includes dozens of varieties of historical combat equipment. It was cool to see several of the helmets from the game here and learn what they actually looked like, since the game makes them invisible.

The key here is repeated damage, on helmets that are very likely not in their first battle by a variety of weapons and people, sometimes mounted, sometimes not. Once you have that, even a bascinet can fail if you hit it in a place with a flaw in its material. This is a kind of cutting through armor that happens in Mallory's Death of Arthur, and while it is exaggerated, there is no question about Mallory's familiarity with battles. It probably happened a lot less that Death of Arthur would make you believe, but I don't doubt it happened somewhat regularly - and when it did, it was incredibly memorable. Hell, I've had a helmet fail on me a little bit like this after years of use, it got dented to a point where some of its rivets got torn off so I had to retire it. If I was on campaign and had to choose to use either that damaged helmet or nothing, well...

@clothar23

2 ай бұрын

Except if you were on Campaign with your Liege you would have access to an Armourer who could fix your helmet. Even if they weren't directly affiliated with your Lord hundreds of craftsmen either followed or were part of each army.

@MartinGreywolf

2 ай бұрын

@@clothar23 Of course, and all those craftsmen could summon the materials and tools (which do include blast furnances) necessary to forge an entirely new helmet (as opposed to making minimal field hammering it into shape repairs) by the power of capitalizing the L in liege.

@clothar23

2 ай бұрын

@@MartinGreywolf Mate you only need a blast furnace if you're planning on smelting raw ore. And smelting was its own profession , something even an Armourer would have no real skill with in Feudal Europe. A few ingots of metal would be something any armourer on campaign would carry. And heating it to working temperature is something completely capable in field conditions. And you're acting like repairing a dent or hole would be some impossible task. A task armourers usually pawned off on their apprentices. Replacing a few rivets here , replacing a strap there , forge wielding a new sheet in here. These sort of repairs are dead simple and require nothing more than supplies that would fit into a cart. Sure repaired gear is not as good as new gear. But a repaired helmet is better than no helmet or in your example a damaged one.

@pyrrhusofepirus8491

2 ай бұрын

Tldr: Pyrrhus is literally described as cutting a man from temple to pelvis, whereupon his foe fell in two pieces. remember reading about Plutarch’s account of Pyrrhus, and Plutarch’s account is meant to be as true to the fact as he could realistically make it. He wasn’t writing a mythical history. Pyrrhus of Epirus was probably the most terrifying warrior of his age, and there are several examples of his sheer martial mastery. Including one infamous one: Essentially, Pyrrhus, after failing to subdue Sicily, flees but is pursued by the Mamertines if I remember correctly. Pyrrhus got struck on the head by something, and then the Mamertine champion called him out and called him a coward. Enraged, Pyrrhus rode back and delivered such a devastating downward stroke with his sword that is literally translated as cutting him longways from temple down to the pelvis, and cutting him into two pieces. He’s literally described as cutting a man in two, in a fact based account. While I don’t believe Pyrrhus actually cut a Mamertine in two, something must’ve happened to cause that story to crop up. Maybe he delivered a strike on the shoulder, and it cut deep into the Mamertine, or he literally cut his head in two with a single strike. If nothing else it shows the sheer terror and awe that Pyrrhus inspired in those around him.

@clothar23

2 ай бұрын

@@pyrrhusofepirus8491 And yet the man got his name associated with a victory so costly it may as well been a defeat. So methinks his his glory a little overblown.

Some medieval & Renaissance sources definitely just made stuff up. One example is Jorg von Ehingen's 1457 battlefield duel with a North African champion. A brief later account claims von Ehingen cut his foe in half or some such. By contrast, his accounts says that they unhorsed each other with lances, struck each other with their swords to no effect because of their armor, & wrestled for a while. Von Ehingen eventually managed to strike his opponent in the face a couple of times & then thrust him through the throat.

@henriknemeth3370

2 ай бұрын

What is your opinion of the anecdote about a British trooper cutting his French opponent's brass helmet cleanly in half with a 1796 LC saber, during the Peninsular War?

@b.h.abbott-motley2427

2 ай бұрын

@@henriknemeth3370 It seems plausible, given there are a number of such accounts from that period. If a brass helmet is thin enough, there's no reason why a steel sword couldn't split it.

@henriknemeth3370

2 ай бұрын

@@b.h.abbott-motley2427 I find this whole cutting weapons against armour topic really interesting. Von Ehingen’s own account of him and his opponent trying to defeat each other by attempting to cut through armour, and other sources mentioning combatants suprised that their sword cut didn’t manage to incapacitate their armoured foes seem to imply that often the soldiers themselves didn’t have a clear idea of the reality of weapon-armour interactions, which I find incredibly weird. I vaguely remember a battle account talking about German knights trying to defeat French knights with their large cutting swords (Oakeshott XII/XIII?) and failing, while the French realize that thrusting is the way to achieve that.

@Red-jl7jj

2 ай бұрын

@@henriknemeth3370 There is no reason to assume the people who fought knew less than me or you. Also the Battle of Benevento by Andrew of Hungary (which is what Oman's modern (and incorrect) retelling is likely based on) mentions they were striking with their longer swords (longer than the French's), maces, and axes, to contrast the French with their shorter swords coming in very close and thrusting the flanks of the Germans. Read other accounts and you will see just how common face wounds are, not to mention muslim sources note that cutting at the collarbone can make the sword cut through the maille, and hands are always a prime target. Striking doesn't necessarily mean cut, but regardless cuts are still given in armored combat (and are very common for mounted fencing, armored or otherwise).

@henriknemeth3370

2 ай бұрын

@@Red-jl7jj So it is an account of the battle of Benevento, and not the battle of Tagliacozzo. I got these two battles mixed up for some reason. Thanks. I agree that it is a bit far-fetched to suggest that people who are accustomed to fighting in a certain environment would be clueless about the effectiveness of their blows against the armour of that certain environment. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. What I was getting at is that we see a large number of powerful cutting weapons being utilised in armoured combat by the nobilty of the 12th-14th centuries, weapons whose primary if not sole purpose is to cut, not being able to be used in a thrusting manner. Cutting against - even only partially - armoured opponents is problematic, as not only does virtually all forms of armour render such attacks ineffective, for a cut to be succesful (debilitating), it is also required that there is a big enough continous surface of the opponent’s body left unarmoured, because due to the nature of cutting, even the slightest obstructions that a weapon cannot penetrate will result in a failed strike. Something like a nose guard makes cuts against the face impractical, for example, but it barely makes it harder to thrust someone in the face. The same can be said about slight gaps between pieces of armour. In contrast, thrusting can be viable not only by targeting gaps in the armour, but in some cases, even if not often, against the armour itself. I’m aware of the discussions (mainly of the 19th century) about the effectiveness of the different forms of attacks. I know that cutting holds certain advantages over thrusting, still, for the aforementioned reasons, thrusting seems to be vastly superior to cutting in an armoured combat scenario. Despite that, fighters not only didnt’t abandon cutting weapons, they apparently opted for more powerful ones, the Maciejowski Bible featuring quite a lot of them. And this phenomenon I find puzzling, because one certainly does not need a heavy chopping instrument to incapacitate somebody with face and hand cuts, in fact these would seem to favor a lighter, quicker blade, at the same time these heavier cleavers are just as incapable of dealing with armour as any other weapon used in a cutting fashion. It is hard to imagine that they were even meant to collide with armour (on a regular basis), given how such an occurence can seriously damage if not outright destroy even modern replicas made of much tougher steel. I haven’t come across the muslim sources you mentioned about collarbone strikes, could you point me to a source?

"SNORT" and "FIX GLASSES" Well actually obviously they are using their superior warrior strength and enchanted weapons, duh. Seriously, good video. Maybe occasionally these were lucky hits and the armor failed, but probably creative license was used.

The concept of cleaving helmets is so old that the concept of a weapon strike called the Helmsplitter persists. Even Link learns this move in Twilight Princess.

Mike Loades put this to the test. It was some time ago but if memory serves it was a well made arming sword vs a good quality helm. The helmet was braced, so wasn't able to move like a person's head would. Using all his forced with multiple cuts he was barely able to cause a superficial dent. My view is that unless the helm was extremely poor quality, e.g. with lots of slag, there's no way a person on foot with a sword could slice through a helmet. That said, if on horseback and travelling at speed, while I still don't see a steel helmet being cut through, I can imagine the concussive force being sufficient to knock a man down and stun him.

@PJDAltamirus0425

2 ай бұрын

Maybe the design of the orc falchin that Bjorn hunter tested was to maximize chances of concussion from a cutting tool.

@jimbokilo

2 ай бұрын

There is a record of Sir William Marshall cutting through a mans helmet while protecting a fellow knight on top of wall.

I would like to see a test of a high-quality-steel sword versus helmets and/or armor made of rather thin-ish and low-quality iron. Because at least some of the accounts of warriors cutting through armor and helmets specifically mention magical and/or high-quality (sometimes named) swords and axes. And there's long been the idea that very high-quality weapons, like Ulfberht swords and the "wurmbunt" - worm-colored - swords that King Theodoric wrote to a Thuringian king about, are the "real world" basis of these magical swords like Mimung and Excalibur. If you look at early medieval armor, that was (sometimes) quite thin and not really suited to protect from a dedicated strike. However, they were enough to keep you from getting killed, and also quite good at deflecting arrows and lighter javelins. There's also a Baldenheim type Spangenhelm which has a cut from a sword that propably went through (even though these were very prestigious pieces of armor), but not far enough to cause lethal damage. So all in all, I think we sometimes underestimate how poorly made some armor was in medieval times (because the surviving examples are of high quality). On the other hand, legends and sagas with heroes cutting through armor and entire people will have had an influence on artists as well, who may have overstated how often that happened.

I just assumed it was just exaggerated shorthand to show what an enormous badass someone was. A Medieval Chuck Norris joke basically.

A good post, thanks for this video. When making such comparisons, one should always remember that the technology of metal production has of course developed further since the Middle Ages, which results in better quality. If you want to make a somewhat realistic comparison, then you have to use exactly the same manufacturing processes of the Middle Ages when making armor and weapons. Of course, this also applies to the material used. It would also be a very expensive project.

@Specter_1125

2 ай бұрын

The effect of the relative poor quality of steel often gets overstated. The lower quality presents itself more in the form of reduced homogeneity, which can definitely cause weak points, but there were ways to minimize this, such as folding it into itself, or laminating two pieces perpendicular to the other. The laminated iron plates (which were fairly common place for armor in the early 15th century) were pretty close to modern cold rolled mild steel in overall performance.

@off6848

2 ай бұрын

If the armor steel is bad so was the weapon steel I think bad ancient metallurgy is actually overblown

Glad to see you being a bit more active these last few weeks. Make sure you’re looking after yourself, and you do you man. Brains are complicated and definitely aren’t built to cope with the internet……but if you can do you AND make videos that I really enjoy watching then maybe do that….maybe? 👍

It is important to remember that mild steel was more or less the best quality of steel which could be produced regularly at this time. It is also very important to understand that the quality of metallurgy in Medieval times could vary radically between pieces, or even within the same piece. They simply did not have the ability to predictably make a large surface of iron/steel with even characteristics. Swords from the time can have huge variations of hardness differences in the same blade. Also, smiths at this time tended to make their steel to temper on the softer side, because it was easier to make a bit of steel that would fail by bending vs a bit of steel that was super hard, but not prone to shattering. A bent weapon/suit of armor is easier to repair, and the wounds it allows were more survivable, than if the armor/weapons are made too brittle and shatter prone. With that said, helmet failures like the ones depicted in their art would almost certainly happen sometimes, when the opponent's strike caught and broke through the weaker riveted joints on a spanglehelm or otherwise when a strike of sufficient strength found a flaw point in the armor

@lscibor

2 ай бұрын

IF helmet is, say, 2.5mm thick, I think it kinda doesn't matter how wrong something could gone with smithing, or whatever. Sheer mass of dense iron to displace would make it kind of impossible for a sword. With thinner pieces of helmet it would be way more plausible, I guess.

@off6848

2 ай бұрын

@@lsciborif the metal tech was bad for the armor it would also be bad for the sword Okay so the metallurgy sucked now make shitty built sword go through shitty built helmet see how it works out

I love the editing in this video, good job Skall!

@Skallagrim

2 ай бұрын

Thanks!

Also being on horse back makes a difference too, especially when you consider cavalry charges and how much speed, momentum and velocity were built up before contact. Imagine the tooth pick being thrown and puncturing glass panes the way a tornado can and it's a similar concept.

I absolutely love your IT DEPENDS shield. It's the first time that I noticed it, but it's absolutely brilliant. Thank you for that.

Keep the great videos coming Skallagrim, love your videos and watched almost all of them. Keep on keeping on

Another great video as always Skall. Insightful commentary with plenty of evidence and examples to back your points up.

Your editing is getting really good. Love your content brother, thanks for the uptick in historical analysis. Feels like the old days.

I'm so happy to see you treat that topic, as it is my research subject : depiction of medieval armor in Jean Froissart's Melyador, the last french chevalric / arthurian novel in verse from XIVth century. To me, more than facts, medieval imagination is quite a fascinating topic. If i can humbly provide any help, just ask. It would be my pleasure.

I wonder if, with period materials and all the variation in both arms and armor, sometimes a supremely good steel sword would happen to find a nasty iron helmet and go through it.

@gigaslave

2 ай бұрын

Or if a helmet wasn't tempered properly, and had a brittle spot that shattered/tore open from stress after being struck enough times.

Been a fan for years, i love you are still making videos skal!

Totally awesome video Skall thank you for mention 😎🎯🙏

Interesting topic. Nice to see your footage of the helmet tests again.

I like to imagine that there were very isolated incidents of catastrophic helmet or plate failure in which a bladed weapon cleaved through a solid piece of armor, but it's pretty obvious that it was depicted in art pretty much for the sole purpose of making a story more interesting.

Love your videos man!!

Everytime when I think you start repeating your videos, it goes in another direction worth watching and giving new perspective. Keep up the great work

There was a time few months ago when I felt less interested in your content, but recently it’s all been really great, and I hope the algorithm starts treating you right

Could having two horses running at each other give enough force to split helmets? Because all of the art sources you showed featured two hoses running at each other.

@procow2274

2 ай бұрын

Swinging a sword with that kinda Force would probably break the weapon before the helmet

@Riceball01

2 ай бұрын

I think that would depend a lot on the angle of the strike as well as where the riders are in relation to each other. I'd think that if the riders were head on to each other and one is sticking straight down as depicted in the art shown, I don't think that the momentum of the horse(s) would make much of a difference. Now if the attacking rider were to come at his opponent largely perpendicular to him and delivered a side cut, then, yes, I think that the horse's momentum would add something to the cut.

@lscibor

2 ай бұрын

@@procow2274 Better chance with some very robust axe, way stiffer than a sword, and will "concentrate" the impact. Still the wrist and the grip of the striker will be limiting factor then.

Thanks for the new video ! 😊

Really appreciate the depth of your knowledge on these topics. This period in history in general as well as the individuals, armor, and combat tactics are fascinating to me.

Always excited to see a new skallagrim vid!

Love this content brother!

Amazing video! 😄

Love your work!!! :D

History Channel had a short-lived series some years ago called "Knight Fight" (or was it "Fight Knight"?) where they would have tournaments with SCA/Buhurt guys. In one episode, I remember a contestant had to be provided a replacement gauntlet between rounds because his developed a crack that was several centimeters long and fairly wide. It seems pretty reasonable that stuff like that might be reported as armor being cut, historically. It certainly fits the term "sundered".

I think there's a very good reason why medieval warfare moved towards blunt bludgeons when heavier armour started being common.

Good editing and production

One thing it seems you missed was the added momentum from riding on horseback as most of the medieval images show.

@Skallagrim

2 ай бұрын

That's most relevant for a horizontal forward swing or a rising cut. Those strikes are coming down on the helmet, so the forward momentum wouldn't affect them too much.

The metallurgy of helmets and other armour would, obviously, also be very important. We know that pre-modern steel and iron was much less homogenous than its modern equivalent. Also some armour was hot worked, some cold worked; without very careful quenching and annealing, internal stresses as well as variations in uniformity of hardness, ductility and toughness can be created. The Black Prince's great helmet was metallurgically tested and was found to have very variable characteristics. It was hot worked in general, but cold worked in places, possibly due to repair after damage. I can easily imagine that poorly made helmets might shatter, or even be cut into, on occasion.

Great video!

This sort of thing is why I don't put much stock in historic artistic depictions. Additionally, there's the added wrinkle that good artists were pretty rare in those days, artistic skill could be your meal ticket so I have to imagine the techniques were jealously guarded. For example, Lindybeige made that video on the mail coif he was trying to make based on a historic depiction, and I think what the picture was actually meant to represent was a patterned solid helmet with chainmail neck guards and the artist just wasn't able to differentiate between them.

This is the most comprehensive and interesting video I've seen on the subject

Skall my man, you now absolutely need to get that shield properly decorated with a stylized rendering of the "It Depends"!

A lot of work went must have gone into this video because it was such a high quality one, and also very educational and entertaining.

7:22 this seems a reasonable time to mention the battle against the Gauls in the first episode of Rome, with centurions blowing whistles to signal the troops to rotate through the ranks and several ranks deep. This (to whatever extent the depiction is historically accurate) would allow the front rank to go harder and then have several minutes for a breather.

Amazing video❤

Love you Skall my man I hope you the absolute best my guy

The editing in this video is top notch

My read on that first illustration, with the sword poking out of the helm, is a thrust through the breaths that kept going.

@NamelessVoice

2 ай бұрын

Was thinking this as well. It's possible the artist was trying to depict a thrust, either going into the eye slot (it doesn't quite line up) or going through the weaker part of the helmet with the breathing grille.

7:05 imagine having to explain to your lord that the reason you ate all the winter reserves is because you're bulking

Excellent video ❤❤❤

❤️ thank you for your content

i love the "it depends" trope in this channel XD

Great Video! More Please! C:

Excellent video.

From what I remember, Polish hussars could on rare occasions cut through the helmet using their black sabre from horseback against the infantry, but I don't remember the details and it was in times when heavy armor was going out of favour with introduction of early firearms, crossbows and armies in Europe changing to quantity over quality.

Great video

It's stuff like this that makes me think people just totally forget that there were as many scam artists back then as there are now. Meaning that on rare occasion you pick up a garbage weapon or piece of armour and bring it to the battlefield the sword could break or the armour could be slashed through. Also, in the odds. Given the amount of battles over hundreds of years, wild flukes can happen. If it was one in a million odds that a sword could clean slash through a helmet then it would still definitely happen. Not that I am doubting the creative license argument, just a point I feel people don't think about.

on the "highly detailed, realistic image of fighting knights" it looks a bit as though the sword hit under the chin or through the breathing hols abd then penetratet the helmet. also, a lot of the pictures with split helmets are at mounted combat. considering the higher velocity, and therefore momentum, it might be a higher possibility to split a helmet with a sword.

@roacktucktwist1163

2 ай бұрын

They would use lance and war pick/hammer

I just remembered that modern german IDZ vests actually have stab protection and can take inserts consisting of chainmail that can be worn with ballistic armor. Its always amazing to consider that we have no figured out a better way of protecting against bladed weapons thatn linking metal rings together.

@clothar23

2 ай бұрын

We have found better materials. Most people are just too stupid or cheap to use them. Often both.

One thing that wasn’t touched on that I think is worth considering is how a lot of the depictions of weapons going through armor are shown on horseback. Obviously the added energy of a horse’s gallop probably won’t cause a sword to cleave an armored knight in half, but if a stronger sword ever did go through a thinner helmet, it would probably most often occur on horseback. I can only imagine witnessing something like that might cause a medieval artist to want to depict it after witnessing it, but just like anyone today they would probably heavily exaggerate it when retelling the story in their art after witnessing it themselves or just hearing about it; just like how learning about how medieval plate armor was actually extremely light and extremely effective might make someone like me (who doesn’t know as much about the topic as I think I might) to get the impression that a plate-clad knight was totally invincible to being hurt.

The drawing was probably made because it was a special event that did not happen often. Splitting a helmet with a sword during a fight. The artist probably received instructions from the warrior on how to draw this.

Your videos are always very interesting. Do you have a podcast?

As a judo balckbelt of some 30 years and former national level competitor the art work at 11:49 put a big smile on my face - Go on that knight, excellent form, great art! regarding splitting helms - well as a former IRL military i will say that the quality of military equipment varies a lot - and how old it is and how well maintained matters a lot too. I bet these events happened, but the helms in question were cheap, old and or badly maintained - and thus not fit for purpose.

Familiarizing oneself with the well-observed and analyzed archaeological evidence from the Battle of Visby (27 July 1361), very admirably showcased in the local dedicated museum (or, alternatively, studies based on said evidence) is highly relevant on this particular matter. One will be surprised.

Something you missed that I think really should be mentioned, is that metallurgy was different back then. The actual iron that had any carbon on it was on the outside layers, inside it was nearly raw iron. Swords were like this too, as well as anything else pretty much, however the point is that the metal was weaker. Some examples from the time have about the material hardness of Bronze.

I for one, have found your content interesting since 2016, 2017........ I can't quite recall when. I've been watching you, Shadiversity, and The Metatron since around when No Mans Sky released. That's ^ my memory marker.

@Markbell73

2 ай бұрын

BTW, thanks Skallagrim.

Definitely some artistic license from the artists. I would consider the possibility that there's also a level of repetitive stress built on the armor over time if you were in several major battles the armor could be used damaged repaired and reused and depending on the quality of repair and the level of damage you could build up through work hardening and stress fracturing to the point where a helmet could fail spectacularly. There's also the possibility of substandard original quality given that mistakes/fraud happens and since historical steel was full of inclusions a bad job by the armorer might result in an overly brittle piece occasionally. It would be at most an extremely rare event though not nearly as likely as the art makes it seem but it could be part of the origin for it as a story.

I think shitty reused metal would be of varying quality and capability and it's not hard to imagine it depending on the army and time, how long they had been in "combat conditions" as upkeep is difficult and a major factor

Great video, as always. You should market an "It Depends" shield, brother.

I have found one historical qoute from a book about the battle of Vienna 1683 about someone cutting through a helmet and the head inside. Wespazjan Kochowski wrote in a letter: Ea namq in danda vulnera proficiebant Barbari efficacia, vt conspexerim ipse, hastatae cohortis militem,quem e ferro galea tegeret, irrito crassioris laminae praesidio, discisso medio tenus capite prostratum. translates more or less to: The barbarians show such skill in delivering harm that I myself saw a fallen lancer who wore an iron helmet and despite being covered in thick plate had his head cleaved. The type of helmet is not mentioned but would have most likely been a Cicek/Zischagge/Szyszak, so not the heaviest but still should be sword proof. The only explanation I could think of would be that the Turk hit the guy with enough force with a well made weapon in a spot where there was a fault in the helmets plate.

William of Poitiers records William Marshal cleaving through a helmet, stunning the adversary, who lived, then sitting on him until he came to and taking him captive. Much like the kendoka you showed cuttong through the helmet but likely not enough to get to the skull.

Looking at 1:52 the horse appears to be galloping, which as mentioned would amplify the attack, if the opponent was also galloping at full speed it would increase it a rediculous amount, i could see with a strudy enough sword your opponent swinging as you thrust it appears plausable to puncture a helmet, when given factors like areas of helmets being thinner or some helmets not made equally I could stabbing through a helmet being a possible although quite rare achievement. Splitting one in two though seems almost impossible, the only scenario i could see this kind of event happening would be for someone to have drawn the short straw and got the old damaged rusted helmet and both on horseback at full gallop towards each other with a very large heavy weapons

It’s also worth considering that some armor might just be badly made or repaired. We’ve all had blades snap in training; it’s not crazy to think that some armor just fell apart at times.

Remember in the 1800's the earliest iron ships; the steelplate was so brittle that a minor colision with a pier or a moring pole could result in it burtsting, the use of iron was very quickly stopped and the use of carbon and other alloys came in very quick. However, using iron instead of steel was so much cheaper that until early 1900's many river barges from cheap-skate owners were made with the much cheaper iron plate riveted. Restoring those boats that survived until now is a nightmare due to the iron quality, welding is pretty hard to impossible. Besides all that; using iron ore to make cheap helmets would have been done back then as well, specialized steel mainly for expensive well paying customers for weapons and armour as is seen many times. Using iron plates as in lamellar armour is known. And another factor was off course; how was the sheetmetal made? How clean was it? Having slag residue in the iron or steel does make it more prone to being able to cut it with a high end steel blade, and a sliced helmet would have been recycles fast enough not to leave a trace untill these days, besides being less corrosion resistant as well due to porosity of the bad hammered sheetmetal. Would be fun to try those above mentioned iron and steel types instead of high quality modern mild steel or hardened steel.

9:40 There is an even more well known, at least in JSA circles, case of it done by Sakakibara Kenkichi, in 1887 he is said to have cut an over 10cm deep gash into a helmet, but the helmet was filled with warm rice, and might have even had a sheet of warm, wet rice paper draped over it. These "tests" are done to show the skill of the swordsmen and the quality of the swords they use, they aren't meant to replicate any real life situation, this was considered near impossible task, even with the measures taken to make it easier. From what I've read about this, success wasn't common.

This brings up a spin-off track of pondering... how many concussions and skull fractures did medieval doctors have to deal with, and how would they treat something like that (besides the obvious answer of "not well")

After seeing that manuscript example drawing of a Knight throwing the other Knight over his hip at 11:50 into the video I could only think to myself "omg a Knight full plate armor, no weapons, judo grappling sport would be one of the most awesome things I could possible witness in my life", like olympic level judo grapplers tryna take each other down first and how the armor would change the way they grappled would be so interesting and I imagine would get really technical. Or do it with simular rules as wrestling and introduce a rule that says you have a blunt dagger you can use to finish the contest simular to pinning your oponent but you can only pull the dagge out when you have taken down the oponent and landed in a dominat position but because you are releasing one of your arms to grab your dagger this may give the oponent opportunity to bridge and grapple their way back out off of the floor. Idk something cool like that, I wonder how much faster guys would get exhausted.

Broken helmets with swords were not only depicted in art, in Historia Regum Britanniae (Geoffrey of Monmouth's book) is mentioned a few times that someone cut the head of otherone with a sword, mentioning that the helmet got broken in half. Perhaps it could means that the rival was killed brutaly or something similar.

@chrisball3778

2 ай бұрын

Geoffrey of Monmouth is notorious for just making up crazy stuff. Even other medieval writers dunked on him for how ludicrous some of the things he came out with were. Historium Regum Britanniae became extremely popular precisely because it was so full of fantastical events that medieval audiences found entertaining, rather than sticking to the facts- sort of like modern action movies that claim to be 'inspired by a true story' but bear little relation to historical events.

I would imagine the depiction at 1:44 is the result of a thrust that caught in one of the breath holes while the horse was moving at speed

Armour is made with “getting through the field” in mind. Helmets have most certainly been a psychological defence more than a physical one. Even today the helm will take more than the spine..I have found plate was advanced in reaction to the indirect weapons technology, bows and shot ect. (Even today the Armour traits are defence versus movement.)And swords developed in order to counter it. However that sed. It’s a good yarn “cutting a knight in twain.”

Now I REALLY need a review of the Home Depot sword

We have the "it depends" shield, now all we need is the legendary "context" sword to pair it with.