I also feel like it was SUPER obvious that her frustration was directed at the “woke spaces” and the “woke people” who press it all the time, but NOT at NB people themselves.

@bertdammer8419

4 жыл бұрын

Even people who defend her are missing this.

@drasco61084

4 жыл бұрын

Also trying to assume what she means by woke spaces. Context.... She mentioned being in a room full of cis women. In other words... Rooms full of more privileged people can do these little patronizing things when someone of a more oppressed identity walks in. It is a thing that happens. Plenty of queer spaces where everyone introducing themselves and including pronouns is normalized probably don't fall into that.

@DeaconShadow

4 жыл бұрын

That’s it in a nutshell. I wouldn’t be surprised if the majority of the most hysterical attacks are coming from people who don’t give a shit about any ,marginalized community, and are simply there to bag on a trans woman.

@xxHILBORNxx

4 жыл бұрын

I also feel like the critique of those spaces is appropriate, bc there’s no other way cis people could understand this concern unless she communicated it

@lilymiddleman7627

4 жыл бұрын

Omg exactly. That's what she means by "hyperwoke"

I'm binary trans and don't pass very well, but i hate the pronoun circles, specifically if im the only trans person there. it's incredibly alienating and feels like cis people are turning me into a spectacle when they do that, so i can definitely get what natalie was trying to say.

@MoltandMigrate

4 жыл бұрын

Consider that you can't actually know someone's pronouns (or gender) until you ask them.

@angelalawter2663

4 жыл бұрын

@@MoltandMigrate this is true, but the convention pretty much everywhere is that you just make a guess and assume people's gender unless they tell you otherwise. It's only a very rare individual that *never* assumes anyone's gender; it's just not usually how people behave. So the pronoun circles are theoretically for the benefit of the minority that *appear* to be a gender different from what they actually are (whether because they don't want to pass, can't pass, or are of a more obscure gender identity that people wouldn't assume). But if you're the only one in a room that doesn't pass it can make you feel singled out and awkward. I think that pronoun circles are an imperfect solution that doesn't really help in a lot of contexts.

@MoltandMigrate

4 жыл бұрын

@@angelalawter2663 "It's not usually how people behave." ...hence the push to change our culture to be more inclusive; hence those "rare" individuals who simply use "they" for everyone until otherwise specified. It's not some unmoving block of anthropological development. It's people learning to use certain language so as to be inclusive.

@PsychicAlchemy

4 жыл бұрын

​@@MoltandMigrate Such a change is an extra layer of separation and sterility between people, and makes it more difficult for people to live genuinely. When people ask what pronouns I prefer, I'm stuck pondering whether I've failed in my transition or if it's just some ham-fisted attempt at manually editing culture. I'd rather just be misgendered and accept the pain.

@MoltandMigrate

4 жыл бұрын

@@PsychicAlchemy I agree the idea of "preferred pronouns" makes it sound like it's a fashion choice. They aren't "preferred" in the same way one's sexuality, or gender identity aren't "preferred." My pronouns are my pronouns, and yours are yours. It's a matter of necessity that I ask, because I genuinely don't know. It just fits in nicely with other introductions. "Nice to meet you. My name's Blah, what's yours? I go by he/him pronouns, how about you?" I won't ask your pronouns if you really are uncomfortable giving them, but you have to understand, that greatly limits how others can communicate with you.

As a person who is disabled I always say that I am only speaking for myself and I never speak for other disabled people. I hate always being seen as a spokeswoman for the disability.

@alysmarcus7747

4 жыл бұрын

Exactly - when i worked in the field as a private caregiver - i hated it when; and some still do it - address a person as their illness. Now i've been disabled with multiple things for close to 2 decades - but - i have a life, i am a person, and live with certain challenges - Other people that live with the same challenges - even EXACTLY the same -are not going to have the same experience - We all have a life path, past, present a future we are creating by the moment - and weird stuff that intersects on a daily basis ! ;)

@wanderingoryx3710

4 жыл бұрын

I find this offensive.

@rachelloretto4833

4 жыл бұрын

@@MyNontraditionalLife also my personal needs and experiences are vastly different from others with my same disability.

@jemangedessaucisses206

4 жыл бұрын

You must be an American, because that every-man-for-himself attitude of yours is as American as obesity and mass shootings. So when you speak only for yourself, remember those who are voiceless - or are you too selfish?

@wanderingoryx3710

4 жыл бұрын

@@jemangedessaucisses206 are you poor?

Some things to take away from this: 1. Twitter sucks and social media is toxic. 2. Natalie is just describing an aspect of her own experience, not telling the world how to behave. 3. I, as a NB person have learned to just accept that others will misgender me often, despite the fact that I wear a 'they/them/theirs' pin every day at work. Sucks, but there it is. 4. In her video on pronouns, Natalie was very on the side of NB people and in the same video she explained her position on this how she prefers ppl to assume her gender - as long as they assume correctly. 5. Asking someone's pronouns doesn't have to be a huge deal. When the "hyperwoke SJWs" make it a big song-and-dance production it's awkward for everyone. 6. Like others have pointed out, there's no really simple solution here that works for everyone all the time 100%

@Grace-fz6uu

4 жыл бұрын

And I think part of the problem is the inability to read sarcasm etc. online. Like when she said minor expense and then "thats super fucking hard for us" I heard it in that high pitch sarcastic voice from her videos. Like, go to her most recent one you'll hear it a lot. That's how she punctuates sentences and often pokes fun at her own position or statement. But that doesn't come through, which is v understandable and also the thing is like, I could be wrong. That's the problem with getting all your outrage from a kinda blurry tweet, without considering anything else. Not position, not context nothing.

@SoulWatcher72

4 жыл бұрын

Grace Wasson I completely agree with you on your assessment. So true. I absolutely hear her making fun of her self in that voice she does. I love that so much.

@SoulWatcher72

4 жыл бұрын

Joycelin lgbtQ what a great breakdown you did. I concur. Cheers

@SoulWatcher72

4 жыл бұрын

I would definitely pin this ( the original commenter above) comment right away. Great take.

@GeCeeMeS

4 жыл бұрын

@@Grace-fz6uu I feel like even without having ever seen any of her videos, the juxtaposition of "minor problem" immediately followed by "super fucking hard for us" should make it clear that the last phrase was a joke. But that requires to take a moment and think about it, and it seems that the design of twitter just invites everyone to tweet out the first thing that comes to mind. (Granted, a lot of comments everywhere seem to reflect that...)

Honestly, I used to not be very accepting of non-binary genders. Probably because I just don’t understand them. But Contra really changed my perception, and made me realize that I don’t HAVE to understand them in order to accept and be empathetic and inclusionary to them. I absolutely love her.

@VIMaggotVIBrainzVI

4 жыл бұрын

Sort of in the same boat here. I understand the difference between sex and gender now, but I still can't wrap my head around nonbinary stuff. It just seems so foreign to me. Maybe I'm too lazy to do the research myself or I haven't interacted with enough nonbinary folks in real life. That's not to say I don't like nonbinary folks or I'm gonna actively misgender someone who prefers some pronoun that I've never heard of. Basically I'm just advocating for the golden rule here, as I'm sure you are.

@psalmanthamonroe7298

3 жыл бұрын

Wait, how can there be non binary genders....doesn't non binary mean no gender...

@harryportfelikartakredytow8907

3 жыл бұрын

@@psalmanthamonroe7298 the way I understand it: binary genders mean you identify with one out of two genders (male or female, either cis or trans), non binary means you do not associate with this binary male/female spectrum. You don't choose between two options. It's quite complex, I have friends who say that they're NB so they are neither feminine nor masculine, but other ones say "I am x% male y% female". I guess non binary is a spectrum, and you could find more specific words for your exact gender. I hope I'm correct on that, I'm cis and that's how I understand it all based on what my NB friends are saying...

@camarvan

3 жыл бұрын

@@psalmanthamonroe7298 No, thats Agender. Non binary is an umbrella term for anything outside the male/female binary (hence the name) for example some Non-binary people identify with male AND female, some dont identify with either

@kimbapit

3 жыл бұрын

In general, how do we accept things we don't understand? Because usually I research for months before I can truly understand something new to me isn't harmful and you have to understand that first before you can accept.

I think the reason people so viscerally hated the way Baltimore was portrayed are fundamentally misinterpreting the video by misinterpreting the intended audience. “Transtrenders” was made for people who genuinely believe that enbies are doing it for clout. The message at the core of Baltimore’s character is that something which seems absurd and cringy at face value can actually be fully logically sound and rational.

She said a small inconvenience and then said “Super fucking hard for us.” I’m pretty sure she meant that tongue in cheek based on how the tone of her videos typically go.

@violetsnotroses3640

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I noticed the "super fucking hard for us" right away. If you're not someone who regularly watches her videos, you wouldn't know that specific tone Natalie always uses when she says that phrase. I can see how that could be upsetting. If you can't hear the sarcasm, it could easily sound like she's prioritizing binary trans people's comfort over nonbinary people's need to not be misgendered. Natalie is so good at nuance, and twitter is so bad at it.

@Enkiaswad

3 жыл бұрын

As viewers of hers you definitely read the "super fucking hard for us" in *that* specific tone and you might even add a "gorg" at the end xD Twitter seems pretty counter productive to communication ^^'

@Alice-gr1kb

3 жыл бұрын

yeah like she says it in her vids alot and it’s always in a way that the tone says “this is a minor inconvience im overdramatizing”, but it’s reasonable to see how people might misinterpret it. also another reason canceling can be harmful bc misinformation spreads so fast

Re: 13:13 - I've been told by some trans folks recently that people are uncomfortable with Natalie precisely because she talks about her personal struggles, whereas many trans women want to hide that from cis people. I understand the need to put up a united front in a world in which one's existence is constantly being challenged, ridiculed, and invalidated, but I agree that people should be allowed to share what they personally are going through. I am coming to dislike respectability politics more and more.

@siginotmylastname3969

4 жыл бұрын

Natalie's done it in ways which spread her own internalised transphobia to other trans folks in worse situations though. It has absolutely nothing to do with what cis people think because Natalie is already very palatable to them.

@BothHands1

4 жыл бұрын

mel o Do you have examples? Is wanting to be stealth internalized transphobia? I know people who would say it is. What exactly are we talking about here?

@Lea-ep1bi

4 жыл бұрын

Honestly, I'm cis, I will never have the experience of a trans or non binary person and that's okay. Natali helped me to "argue" with people who are transphobic, since before I could only use science and now I at least have some idea about the every day struggles trans people go through.

@siginotmylastname3969

4 жыл бұрын

@@BothHands1 the lines in her aesthetic video where she directly says being clocked negates a trans person's gender, plus twitter threads which said a trans person identifying as a gender purely from their self perception is weak. She has consistently had an air of, respect everyone's gender, use their name and pronouns, non binary and non passing folks are valid, BUT. And her aesthetic video influenced another trans friend in temporarily completely backtracking, saying they couldn't be non binary because there's no social role for it. Through a response video I've heard this is not an isolated thing, there were early transition or closeted trans women who were negatively influenced by the idea they can't just say they're women. Which again I'm not paraphrasing, Natalie did actually say.

@BothHands1

4 жыл бұрын

mel o Idk dude, I'm pretty sure she was saying when a person clocks a trans person and says something about it, they're trying to negate that person's gender, not that their gender isn't valid. As for some of the other claims, I'd have to see the context. A lot of times she says things she doesn't actually mean, while in the character of people who critique or invalidate her, as a way to discuss it. She's not shy of debating the more controversial or hateful ideas head-on, rather than strawmanning them. It comes off more genuine to transphobic cis people, and helps them to change their minds. I think that work is absolutely invaluable. As for the enby community, well it's still a pretty new idea in public discourse, and so the best ideas haven't really come to the top yet. People still haven't had time to figure out what the best and most respectful way to go about things is yet, because often different enby people have different goals in their transitions, and the roles they'd like to play in society. For the most part, at least as far as i can tell, the enby community likes Contra.

I totally relate to what Natalie said, and I have a very similar experience. A few years ago when I first started at university and went to the queer lounge with a friend, as soon as I walked in I was asked what my pronouns were, very loudly from across the room. As someone who had just started T but was also stealth, it was incredibly distressing and made me feel like I wasn't being perceived as male, but ambiguous. As a binary man who has been transitioning for several years and is stealth, I WANT people to assume my pronouns, provided they assume correctly (another point that Natalie has discussed in depth in her Pronouns video). I feel uncomfortable, stressed, and often dysphoric when I perceive that my gender presentation is not assumed, and that's completely valid. As Natalie said, I agree that in certain spaces it can be important to share pronouns, and I don't think my uncomfortableness with this should mean that it shouldn't happen or that these spaces shouldn't exist because I know that it is something that is important for people who are 'non-passing' and/or with a presentation different to their gender, including being non binary. My solution? I just didn't go to those spaces. I didn't feel comfortable there, so I didn't go. I totally understand the value of those spaces, and by default the expectations within those spaces, but for me it wasn't worth feeling stressed and tense whenever I was there, and ultimately led me to completely distance myself from the queer community (which for me wasn't a bad thing, don't get me wrong!) I think this 'discourse' should serve as a reminder that trans people are not some collective unit who all have the same desires and goals, and sometimes these goals contradict, and that your own experience of gender shouldn't be projected on to others (eg both from binary trans people who feel validated by gender assumptions, and non binary who wish to deconstruct them). Both are valid, but both can't exist so it's important to approach it with nuance, respect and compassion.

@joycelinlgbtq

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, trans people aren't a monolith. Despite us needing to band together as a community it's obvious to anyone with two brain cells to rub together that we are all individuals who sometimes disagree with each other. Pronouns are a big enough deal as it is, because they represent a person's identity, but getting caught up in only that one aspect isn't helpful. Certainly not from across a room (!?)

@onlyhereforbirds8011

4 жыл бұрын

I feel the same way. I want my pronouns to be assumed (correctly). It actually give me gender euphoria. I get annoyed when trans people tell me to put my pronouns in my Twitter bio.

@wes4439

4 жыл бұрын

+

@mxpants4884

4 жыл бұрын

The across the room yell is so terrible, and it parallels something that I saw a lot of people ignore or dispute about the situation Natalie was describing: they weren't asking each other Imagine if we assumed that people describing a personal experience have more context than the listener.

@specificsoup

4 жыл бұрын

Shufei I disagree but perhaps asking by yelling across a room is :/ the thing is, I have liked it when people introduce themselves, say what their pronouns are, and THEN ask “what are your pronouns.” It’s a lot better than asking the other person without basically reciprocating in this exchange by saying yours. You’re saying like, I validate that you can have any pronouns u choose and I am telling you mine so I take this seriously. It is not just me saying “I can’t tell what gender you’re supposed to be.”

Here's my interpretation of her tweets, I think she was expressing frustration that she is not integrating into society as a fully fledged woman. In hyperwoke spaces, whether you are cis passing or not, everyone's pronouns are asked. When it comes to binary trans people, I can see how they try really super hard to pass to be automatically perceived as a man or a woman, someone asks for their pronouns and they are kinda being paranoid or wondering if they pass or not. It's currently not the mainstream norm to introduce yourself with your pronouns, and people will automatically assume your gender without even asking. Cis people get to have their gender perceived correctly without having to introduce their pronouns. Even I, a non binary person really wished that I can be perceived as nonbinary without having to introduce my pronouns, but we don't live in a society that acknowledges NB people in public spaces. What I see is that Natalie does have a desire to be perceived as a woman and blend into society without having her gender scrutinized. I totally get that, I also wish the same thing because it is still awkward for me to let the other person know to use they/them. I guess I just want to be treated as equally as a cis person so I can just fit in and not stick out like a sore thumb. Idk if this opinion is problematic, but her and I do share a little bit similarity.

@wellingtonsmith4998

4 жыл бұрын

I read all of your response and I think that I "brain know" what you're saying. As a cis-male I'm working toward a point where discussing my and others pronouns are natural and don't Other anyone.

@Rosaedora

4 жыл бұрын

I work in spaces that offer drop ins for newly out folks. In these spaces everyone asks pronouns because you really can't tell. Some people have just come out and haven't started their transition but want to practice new names and pronouns. Some folks are transitioning and some are non-binary and there are points where everyone kind of looks really similar (a guy on T for five months and a girl on estrogen for six months often look really similar). In this space everyone asks everyone what their pronouns are, even if you are cis because it's hard to tell.

@wtbSID

4 жыл бұрын

CANCELED

@wtbSID

4 жыл бұрын

Sorry. Just a reflex.

@wes4439

4 жыл бұрын

@@wtbSID lol

As a closeted, non binary questioning person, I would hate to be in a situation when everyone had to say their pronouns.

@dinosaysrawr

4 жыл бұрын

Same! Mind you, I think it's a fundamentally-good norm to establish, but it can create some awkwardness, too. I don't want my pronouns to become a "big deal" that other people agonize over or fixate on.

@legendaryboss54

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah it’s kind of asking to out yourself

@imgayasheck595

4 жыл бұрын

... Then you just don't say it? Sorry but what is the problem here? Do you also not say your name because it might be gender-coded? What are you imagining here?

@diegovargas8375

4 жыл бұрын

@@imgayasheck595 This entire conversation revolves around a common ritual in progressive spaces of everyone verbally sharing their pronouns to ensure no one is misgendered.

@leaf-ne8wf

4 жыл бұрын

@@imgayasheck595 Have you never been in situation at the start of school when the teacher makes you present yourself to everyone? Just sitting there not knowing what to say while everyone looks at you expecting something feels awkward. The problem is that they're in the closeted and questioning and are imagining a situation where they'd be expected to give pronouns. On one hand they'd be outing themselves or be unsure what to say, on the other they'd be hiding themselves and causing distress.

I believe contra has deleted her twitter because of the backlash. I feel like there's so much hypervigilance that people call out problems that... Aren't there. And then bully people for it. And i mean calling out issues isnt a bad thing, but Natalie wasn't saying anything to hurt anyone or delegitimize anyone, she was venting a frustration that ive heard from lots of trans people.

@BothHands1

4 жыл бұрын

That's really sad to hear. Natalie is one of the most brilliant, thoughtful, pragmatic, empathetic, and kind people in the leftist space right now, and seeing other leftists cannibalize their own, especially someone who's done so much for the community, just sucks. Not only that, it's counterproductive, and hurts their own cause. I really hope this blows over soon. I was actually so worried when i saw this in my recommended page, i thought i was gonna have to go off on someone like those twitter hyper woke people. But this channel is actually so cool, and so is everyone in the comments. Subbed :)

@joycelinlgbtq

4 жыл бұрын

Whoa, really? She deleted her Twitter? Doesn't strike me as the kind of person who would do that so it must have been extreme. No doubt her next video will have to address this. I for one can't wait to see how she works her creative magic and spins a yarn both clarifying her actual position and riding on an alligator with sparklers between her teeth (or something)

@dainty_af

4 жыл бұрын

@@joycelinlgbtq if she makes another video. I'm worried about her. She's put up with a lot of shit and cruelty from people over the years, especially from the Right and I don't think she deleted her Twitter then. I agree that this is a disturbing trend of performative awakeness, dissection of words and disregard of people's intent all for social currency- and that it will set us back in our fights with the Right wing. How on Earth are we going to build a safer, better world on a foundation of cancellation and shaming? We need radical compassion and forgiveness and to stop handling conflict the way we've been conditioned to- by the oppressors' rules.

@peacefulpossum2438

4 жыл бұрын

@@dainty_af Agreed. I'm worried too. Natalie has gone on difficult personal journey in a public setting. She has educated so many and changed attitudes and minds. She is a treasure, and it makes me so angry that self-righteous trolls have been ganging up on her. I hope she is just taking a break and letting things calm down. "radical compassion and forgiveness" -- I love that. It's exactly what we need. We need love. We have to stop attacking one another when we disagree. WE ARE ON THE SAME SIDE PEOPLE! If we don't allow a little disagreement while supporting each other and loving each other, the right won't have to win -- we will defeat ourselves.

@wanderingoryx3710

4 жыл бұрын

What a coward, just close your eyes ahaha.

This is exactly how I’ve been feeling about this whole discourse. I think Natalie’s statements have been misrepresented and some people aren’t acknowledging that she supports asking for pronouns and such, it just makes her uncomfortable. Also did anybody else read this part in the first twitter thread: “it’s super fucking hard for us” as sarcastic? I just imagined her saying it in the same tone that she does in her most recent video about men. It seemed to me that she knew it was a small discomfort for her and she was downplaying her feelings about it through sarcasm.

@owengreene2026

4 жыл бұрын

Thomas Ariniello that’s exactly what I thought, she’s being sarcastic and imitating the stereotypical, white valley girl bubbly personality. Specifically I think she’s making fun of Gigi Gorgeous. (I thought that character was hilarious).

@TheSunGamer101

4 жыл бұрын

I’m so glad I’m not the only one who heard that voice when reading the tweets.

@SpecialBlanket

4 жыл бұрын

>did anybody else read this part in the first twitter thread: “it’s super fucking hard for us” as sarcastic? Yes. She says it sarcastically all the time in her videos.

@Kidomaru222

4 жыл бұрын

This is VERY obviously sarcastic and i'm infuriated that people didn't see that. This is pretty much one of her catchphrases at this point.

@SpecialBlanket

4 жыл бұрын

@@Kidomaru222 Yeah there's really no excuse for everyone else if my literally autistic ass could figure that out. OTOH, that shows that it's not her actual fans making a stink, bc we're enough of a cult following to recognize catchphrases.

One thing that I think is being overlooked is that the original complaint was specifically talking about situations where it's the one binary trans woman in a group with several cis women. That seems to be a big part of why it's coming across as interrogating their gender. As opposed to a setting where there's a mix of trans and non-binary people around too. I know there's still an issue with wanting to normalize not assuming gender/pronouns, but it does read like a pretty specific situation and complaint.

@RilianSharp

4 жыл бұрын

hey! i recognize you from fb.

@notyourjakey

4 ай бұрын

There's a big difference between "I sense a Transgender(TM) among us, activate the Pronoun Circle Protocol" vibes vs. just casually including pronouns during introductions

As someone who is on the autism spectrum (Dx'ed before I was 3, so it's pretty central to my identity) and also an enby, I'd just like to say how happy I am to finally have the language of "accessibility conflict" to describe the things I've been struggling with for so long. I grew up with a mom with attention deficits, and oftentimes we would lash out at one another because our needs would come into conflict (e.g. my mom would constantly have to rewind and rewatch scenes in a TV show because her focus lapsed, whereas rewinding constantly caused my hyperfocus to go haywire). Because of experiencing the frustration of that accessibility conflict my whole life and recognizing what Natalie felt as such (even if I didn't have the words to describe it), I really strongly empathized with her and got into a pretty depressive funk for a bit when I saw the community backlash to her. I'm in full agreement that I've never sensed any real bad faith from any of her videos or tweets, but I also don't want to become recalcitrant and self-righteous about "cancel culture" when the reaction to Natalie is obviously not just sprouting out of a vacuum. There's a level of patience and compassion that I firmly believe we all need to bring to our conversations, both publicly and in private (obviously not to give lenience to toxic individuals, but can most things really be so simple?). So I've spent the last few days trying to reconcile all of this and come away having synthesized something helpful and constructive, and your video has definitely helped me to do so.

@KOKO-uu7yd

4 жыл бұрын

As a mom with ADHD etc, raising an ADD child whose needs I missed for too long (because without the "H", I just didn't recognize what was what) AND raising an ASD(Autism Spectrum Disorder) & ADHD child, I TOTALLY identify with the challenges you described! One needs CONSTANT noise and stim, which will and does drive the other over the edge, and I'm in the middle trying not to go nuts on BOTH of them! 🤣🤣🤣

I think alot of people confused "woke spaces" with "queer spaces" and had a knee-jerk reaction from that. I certainly did. and there is a big difference being surrounded by cis people trying to be woke and being surrounded by fellow trans ppl. none of Contra's videos have even threatened me as a nonbinary person, but throwing an anxious eye at the first two co-tweets just put me in a "oh no someone I think is cool said something that could hurt me!" spiral. and with it being the internet, it is so easy to just put your feelings out there for the world to see before really thinking shit over. I feel because of the internet, it's been easier for alot of us to isolate ourselves and surround ourselves with likeminded people. and as a trans person surrounded by other trans people, in my case mostly nonbinary people much like myself, you kind of forget that cis people exist?

@conradkorbol

4 жыл бұрын

J E I think becusse the nit picky sjws use it. Then the right makes fun of the left with generalization and the left who are afraid of being judged use the word to “hey, we are in your side conservatives” in a false way to trick them into joint the left. You also get edgy comedians who use it to make fun of the left as wel Then it is in so many groups that the word changes meaning I would argue though that it isn’t white leftists who twist the words. I would argue it’s the white conservatives and the white left just eat up any garbage the right feeds then.

@rainbowandre9580

Жыл бұрын

THIS. And not every "woke space" will be trans or nb inclusive so it might not feel safe to state your pronouns if asked.

Thank you for mentioning Kat's video from however long ago! Like...it's been nuts watching this unfold because I was like...didn't we already know this was a thing? It seems like Kat is always years ahead of these issues anyway, but no one's listening to her

@konway17

4 жыл бұрын

People love to take snippets of her videos and them misconstrued entirely of what she’s trying to say. She’s so much smarter than the right want to give her credit for

@angelalawter2663

4 жыл бұрын

Kat Is indeed very wise

@heatherlee2967

3 жыл бұрын

+++

@Cloverfr

2 жыл бұрын

I know! Kat is one of the most smartest and down to earth people here, why isn't getting more views? 😭

@Vadgeofhonor

2 жыл бұрын

@@Cloverfr honestly blaire white is def a better resource then kat

I agree Boltimore Mariland was amazing

@Dylanquinn666

4 жыл бұрын

Boltimore Maryland is my favourite

@matthewchabin384

4 жыл бұрын

Natalie said that she didn’t feel qualified to portray a strictly realistic NB character, so she went with this fantastical archetype. Remember a caricature is an object of ridicule, and Baltimore eloquently roasted the other characters, made them look ridiculous. She was trying like hell to be respectful and affirming. She’s made many overtures to that community, and some of them listen, but there’s a certain angry cohort that thrives on hating her and will never be appeased.

@ArielVHarloff

4 жыл бұрын

@@MyNontraditionalLife I actually still don't know what I think about that scene with the character being talked out of identifying as nonbinary but I think I get what Natalie was getting at. About Boltimore I think the point is that all her characters are usually the most ridiculous version possible of a stereotype so yes I do think their design is a caricature but not to make fun of nonbibary people but to shed a light on people who take offence with things that are out of "the ordinary"

@marshallwayne9270

4 жыл бұрын

@@MyNontraditionalLife well I mean, Natalie can only do so much she can't represent everyone everytime and you also have to put into account how her dressing certain ways could trigger her dysphoria, also drag is part of her aesthetic and she's slowly becoming more comfortable with it. Also if you study Philosophy a lot of Natalie's films take from philosophical texts in their portrayal. She's uses a lot of philosophical theater to send her messages

@ToastyTentacle

3 жыл бұрын

Since Natalie is from Bawlmer Merlin, it's likely spelled like it sounds.

100% I couldn't agree more. I'm non-binary myself, and it's frustrating to me that so many non-binary folk are "taking Natalie the wrong way" but at the same time, I do get where they are coming from. I was responding to another YT discussion the other day on a Progressive KZreadr's channel, and I had this to say: I'm a non-binary genderfluid person who couldn't possibly "pass" at this stage of my life, and I think this whole thing is a tempest in a teacup. ... Natalie is consistent in exposing her own vulnerabilities, struggles, and inner-dialectic to the world. She is also consistent in openly acknowledging her privilege as a white trans-woman who can more or less pass as a cis-woman. She has done so much to help in elevating the discussion of trans and gender identity issues. ... She's more than earned her right to voice her own concerns. ... And those engaging in the so-called "backlash" have a perfect right to express their own concerns in regards to her statements. Those of us who are invested in this particular discussion are just trying to muddle through this together and I'm sure we'll work it out without other people who don't have a clue butting their heads in. Anyway, just to elaborate a bit more in regards to presentation and pronouns, I'm not sure how many folk have similar experiences to mine. At my age, (mid 50's) I couldn't pass as female to anyone else or even my own standards (not without a whole lot of effort, anyway), so I don't even bother to present as female, even when I'm experiencing a great degree of dysphoria. When I was young, up until my mid teens, I could have easily passed as a girl. People "mistook" me as female all the time, and I was rather pleased when they did (except when it caused me grief with bullies in high school). . Oddly enough, I still, on rare occasions, get called Ma'am by people (shop clerks usually) when they only catch me out of the corner of their eye. Needless to say, when they take a good look at me with several days worth of stubble, they apologize profusely in embarrassment. Nonetheless, it feels kind of nice to be recognised as a woman, even if only for a few minutes. If I could magically be outwardly female 60-70% of the time, I would, because that's how I feel inside 60-70% of the time--stuck in the wrong body. For decades I've struggled with wondering whether or not I was trans, and wondering whether I should make the effort to present as female. ... I just decided it wasn't worth the grief and I put up being a dude to the outside world 100% of the time.

honestly, every time Natalie gets in trouble on the internet (and its usually for saying something about NB people), i always look over what she says and go "What?" because as a nonbinary person, she's never said anything that's offended me or made me feel like she doesn't like NB people. I know im not the spokesperson for NB people but i have never felt attacked by Natalie. I genuinely have no idea how people see her as NBphobic. People are allowed to not like her, but i feel like a lot of people don't like her on hearsay.

I never really thought about this (I stay out of most of the drama) but that makes a lot of sense that being asked for your pronouns would bother a binary trans person the same way I get my knickers in a twist when someone calls me ma'am. But you're very right in that it is a conflicting accessibility need where I can't think of a neat solution.

@adriox23

4 жыл бұрын

The solution seems to be that cis people should be asking for everyone's pronouns all the time, even, and especially in spaces of exclusively cis people. Natalie's whole issue here was about feeling singled out by cis people, because they only seem to ask "what's your pronoun" when she's around. Its an issue of normalization. Normalize the question, so that it's everyone's way of greeting anyone, and the dysphoria Natalie feels on this issue, might actually be solved.

@Turai12

4 жыл бұрын

@Tom H we don't?

@rainydaze1313

3 жыл бұрын

I don’t want to be asked my pronouns. I would feel so uncomfortable. I think there are many instances were I wouldn’t want that known. I think it’s not that hard to call people by their name, or frame a sentence without gendered language.

@FennecTheRabbit

3 жыл бұрын

@@rainydaze1313 True, and I get that for folks. Though I think part of it for some folks may be that we only ask that of people who don't look cis or in non-cis spaces. If this was just something universally done, regardless of situation, would it generate the same feeling?

@trawrtster6097

2 жыл бұрын

@@rainydaze1313Maybe a good alternative is "would you like to share your pronouns?" or default to not using pronouns, or use they/them as a default

Thank you. This is a message everyone needs to hear. Every community. Every human being has the right to be human, to think and to feel. Public figures and celebrities do not give up their human rights to their emotions. And Natalie certainly has the right to say she feels this or she feels that without people trying to make her feel wrong, as if her emotions are somehow wrong. We're all different. Being different is not of itself an attempt to change or control others.

@blankslate6590

4 жыл бұрын

I am opposed to gay marriage. You still feeling tolerant?

@mortiferamorphasmus

4 жыл бұрын

@@blankslate6590 What a stupid response. This is not equivilant. Gay Marriage very specifically only affects the gay people getting married. Giving your opinion on something that doesn't affect you in anyway is shitty. It is not the same thing as saying "My needs are different then your needs and I hate that this is the norm. But I acknowledge that it Needs to be the norm". Take a seat

@kathryngeeslin9509

4 жыл бұрын

@@blankslate6590 Of course. It helps that you are in the minority, your side has lost in the courts, marriage to me is nothing but a piece of paper with a lot of legal baggage, and I am not affected personally (though friends are), but even with all this reversed you have every right to your feelings. Just as do my friends desperate to get married. Since their marriages, of whatever orientation, have no effect on you or yours or me or anyone else, their feelings and choices should direct their lives. Just as you should be allowed to do what you choose so long as you harm no one else. If you actually interfere with a gay wedding or harrass a gay couple or someone you think is gay I would then be "intolerant". If you were to express your feelings/opinions to me on the street or bus/train I might express mine in return (or might not). Communication is good but sometimes a bother.

@blankslate6590

4 жыл бұрын

@@mortiferamorphasmus No stupid. The trans person voiced her opinion and got "cancelled" by people like you. That's the context behind my comparison. I didn't say I was going to stop gay marriage, I only voiced an opinion. Your low IQ is showing.

@blankslate6590

4 жыл бұрын

@@kathryngeeslin9509 Good answer. Most people on the left don't think like you I'm afraid. I respect you for being principled.

Also people on Twitter obviously don't watch her channel, because she uses the phrase 'and that's super fucking hard for us' frequently in a sarcastic manner... she's probably not that bent out of shape about it, tbh.

@overgrownkudzu

3 жыл бұрын

yeah, it's a classic natalie phrase, like "that must be super fucking hard for you". it's always sarcastic

I've thought about this topic a lot in the context of "woke cis people". My general rule to give to anyone is you should either never assume anyone's gender to be binary, or assume everyone's gender to be binary - the reason being because I have been in numerous leftist spaces where the only trans woman in a room is asked her pronouns, and nobody else is asked. When a trans woman is giving off clear social indicators that she uses she/her pronouns, it's incredibly insulting to ask her for her pronouns because it's akin to not listening to her, or not respecting her presentation. You're ignoring all the signals she's put effort into giving off in favor of feeling "woke" because you clocked a tran and asked for their preferred pronouns, aren't you gracious? It can also be pretty obvious in certain situations when everyone's going around giving out their pronouns specifically because they've clocked a trans person among them. It doesn't happen in a room full of cis-looking people. It's like you said, though, an accessibility thing. I'm glad I could hear your perspective on this. I wonder if there is a way to make spaces accessible to nonbinary people and also prevent the misgendering-by-nongendering and performative woke-ness. Maybe pronouns stickers or pins are the way to go. I'm not convinced my perspective is the true path of least harm, and I know it's shaped by my own experience as a binary individual.

@joycelinlgbtq

4 жыл бұрын

I wear a 'they/them/theirs' pin at work every day and I still get my gender assumed by some people to be either a woman or a man.

@maremaarten

4 жыл бұрын

Wow, is that a real story? I would just get up and walk out on the spot.

@zieteniere7500

4 жыл бұрын

i get what you're saying. at the same time thats the type of space where youre likely to run into people who would be pretty fucking unimpressed if you misgendered them with the sentiment of - just ask. so you avoid asking pronouns, and go on a limb to gender someone because youre now too worried to ask pronouns in a space that is supposed to be inclusive of that practice. as for the solution - yeah, i agree about asking everyone or no one. i think there should just be a general thing where people say what they are or have it on them (pin or something) if they want. but i think the act of asking, or saying your pronoun can never escape meaning something on its own, until everyone either does or does. until then its still an othered action. just some wandering thoughts on the matter lol

So. I'm binary trans. I do not have passing privilege. I will likely never have passing privilege. I get misgendered irrespective of what I wear, and I get misgendered even if I wear a nametag with my pronouns on it. I don't think she's being nb-phobic here, but I also find it really hard to sympathize with Natalie on this one. People address me as a man irrespective of what I do. Queer spaces are the only spaces where I get gendered correctly because they're the only spaces where people bother to ask for my pronouns. I get that Natalie recognizes it's not a world-ending issue, and I appreciate that she recognizes the good it can do for nb people. But. As someone who is reminded daily that she does not pass, her tweets here feel an awful lot to me like when white people complain about affirmative action. She's a marginalized person, yes, but, in effect, what she's saying is that the only place where she gets misgendered is in places that are going out of their way to be inclusive. That is the vast minority of places. I get misgendered ordering pizza. I get misgendered holding the door for people. I get misgendered every time I give my name at Taco Bell. But when I see her tweet stuff like that, it hurts because, in effect, she is complaining that the privilege she has isn't enough to keep her from briefly feeling what I feel during every single social interaction. I WISH I had that problem. I WISH my passing privilege got me through so many situations that it hurt my feelings when people try a little too hard to be conscientious. But I don't. Instead, I have to worry if using the bathroom is going to get the police called on me. Instead, I have to worry about whether those police will see another Black man up to no good. Instead, I have to worry about whether or not I'll be deadnamed in news reports about my officer-involved murder. Sorry. I just. A lot of my life experience as a Black person has been white people asking me to let their emotions ride up front. It's tiring.

@naebumaye

4 жыл бұрын

Also, it's really fucking unsettling how many cryptofash chuds show up in her mentions to defend her from mild criticism. I know part of her goal is to talk to those folks and try to push them into a more progressive state of mind, but I think part of what she misses about that tactic is that it means those folks are going to show up in her mentions and be actively transphobic to anyone they don't like.

@naebumaye

4 жыл бұрын

Also, also. Please, white people, stop saying "woke". Pretty please.

@LuxanderReal

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you for your perspective. I agree that Natalie is coming at this from a place of incredible privilege (and I have my fair share as well), and I think it's still more important to try to change how we approach pronouns and gender structure in broader society than to conform to those standards for our comfort. I think it can be hard to balance the desire for gender revolution and the desire for safety and acceptance, but this is a good time to reflect on the needs of people who can't attain safety through passing. Again, thank you for sharing

@siginotmylastname3969

4 жыл бұрын

@@naebumaye I also got sick of Natalie's take on it. I'm not in exactly the same situation as you, and don't face any of the racist layers, but as someone who's also constantly misgendered I'll definitely be telling people to include pronouns in introductions where it's safe to do so, because both the number of people affected negatively and amount of hurt coming from THAT is soooo much less than the alternative is. Sorry that you have it so rough :(

@siginotmylastname3969

4 жыл бұрын

@@naebumaye yeah there are a surprising, until her defensiveness is considered, number of fash in her comments :/ I don't think her channel and media are good for that many trans people, I end up reading comments which are hurtful if not worse.

I was scared and very suprised for a moment that Natalie actually said something against nonbinary people. Guess I've been disappointed by creators I looked up to too often. I'm glad it wasn't actually like that.

@ArielVHarloff

4 жыл бұрын

@No more videos don't really have heroes just people I look up to vaguely but a couple of those have recently been... Less than graceful in the worst of ways

@ChiaroXOscuro

4 жыл бұрын

I think this is part of why it happens. Marginalized people are so used to being let down that we're ready to jump in a moment to protect ourselves. And once you hit the go button it's hard to power down.

@rn2787

4 жыл бұрын

She didn't do what people said she did. It's really hard to deal with this one because Natalie has always been put under a microscope and people seem to want to hate her. When it comes to her I never take anyone's word for it because I have read so many people take her out of context and purposely take what she says in the worst possible way that I don't trust anything I read about her. I go to the source and read her words or watch her video. She isn't my "hero", but I think she tries to be better and she is a good person, but a flawed person like everyone else.

@ArielVHarloff

4 жыл бұрын

@@ChiaroXOscuro yeah I agree

@ashleywells5546

4 жыл бұрын

She did. People are just blowing smoke up her ass by covering for her cuz they think hot white trans lady cool

Cis people doing a pronoun icebreaker is our "politically correct" way of essentially saying "I'm uncomfortable with the risk that comes with assuming your gender so I'm going to have you tell me, and everyone else, so we can avoid that little awkward moment where I misgender you." Which might SEEM well meaning but in reality is very self centered, and cis-centered. A better practice, as cis people, would to be to stop talking so loudly and instead actually engage with the people around us. Funny thing, people tend to tell you how they want to be perceived if you listen long enough. Additional anecdote. I have a friend who uses they/them pronouns, and one year at the beginning of class a professor had everyone go around and say their pronouns in the lecture hall. My friend was not comfortable with outing themselves in front of all those strangers. What was meant to be inclusive ended up making them feel othered, and they lied about their pronouns to avoid being singled out. When my friend told me this story they were quick to point out that they would gladly have answered the question honestly to any individual in a more private scenario should they have asked in a normal conversation. It was the public, performative nature of the exercise that made them feel uncomfortable declaring their use of they/them pronouns. My takeaway, as a cis person, is that trans people are people. No duh. Generally, people don't like being publicly called out. When my powers of observation fail me and I'm unsure of a person's gender, I just figure out a way to not use any pronouns until their gender is made clear to me. I've got a handful of acquaintances who's pronouns are a mystery to me, and you know what I call them? Their name. Works every time. And eventually SOMEONE uses their pronouns if I listen long enough. It ain't rocket science, it's just decency.

@Dlipton01

4 жыл бұрын

livelaughs fuck off, of course it’s a ‘cis’ world. We’re normal. You’re not

@SamuraiShizuo

4 жыл бұрын

@@Dlipton01 You're not 'normal' Daniel, you're just ignorant, insensitive and dumb.

@SpecialBlanket

4 жыл бұрын

> I have a friend who uses they/them pronouns, and one year at the beginning of class a professor had everyone go around and say their pronouns in the lecture hall. My friend was not comfortable with outing themselves in front of all those strangers. What was meant to be inclusive ended up making them feel othered, and they lied about their pronouns to avoid being singled out. When my friend told me this story they were quick to point out that they would gladly have answered the question honestly to any individual in a more private scenario should they have asked in a normal conversation. It was the public, performative nature of the exercise that made them feel uncomfortable declaring their use of they/them pronouns. That's my situation exactly. I use they/them in private for people WHO WANT TO KNOW, not to make a fucking show of myself.

@MJW238

4 жыл бұрын

Not using gendered pronouns, but instead using non-gendered language, is hardly being horrible to trans people.

@oliviathurley5732

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you for this. The first time I knew a trans person, one of the first things they asked me was "what are your pronouns" as well as when I attended LGBT+ groups at the time. So I just assumed that the "pronoun circle" was the right thing to do. But I guess things change and people realise what's more appropriate or comfortable over time. I'll definitely take this on board

as an enby Natalie stan, thank you for using your platform to defend her, this video felt like a breath of fresh air.

Thanks, Luxander. It's hard to talk about how our own communities fail us. Especially when we don't know what to do to make it better. When I read Natalie's original tweet I had an immediate feeling of being told off for wanting these spaces to be more inclusive. I know that's what she meant now. I think it's because I've had a very different experience in "inclusive" spaces. In support groups with older trans people me and other nb people are repeatedly misgendered and ignored ("we're all girls here" or a transmasc person repeatedly being called she/her because they don't "semi pass" or less bad me a transfemme person being called she/her). And this is in a space where we share pronouns at the start! And they're still not fucking respected. Same with a super woke church I go to. They have pronouns on the nametags if we want them, but not a single person has gotten that shit right. So my experience is the complete opposite of Natalie's. But it does just sound like different experiences. Because it fucking sucks that some binary trans people are being misgendered by woke people using they/them for the binary person because they think it covers all bases. That's misgendering. And they probably wouldn't use that for passing trans people/cis people. Something that's really hard to learn is how to take comments like Natalie's as a valid complaint and constructive criticism without taking it personally... It's hard

@ambermusic417

4 жыл бұрын

Also, this might be more engaging than the cereal review :-P the donut-os looked nasty

@carolinast94

4 жыл бұрын

I'm not trans, just a cis lady with very masculine/androgynous features, and on my life, the only men who awkwardly ask me if I'm trans on a first date are the white guys who have the most "woke" politics. As usual, I think the problem is overly confident allies speaking before they've listened.

@ashleywells5546

4 жыл бұрын

I know Natalie really fucked us all over by being her usual narcissist self and her fans fucking endlessly supporting her bullshit doesnt help

I agree with everything you said on the sjw topic. . I can't even vent about MY dysphoria without being called truscum...or NB phobic which is unfair. I'm trans male binary and it's unfair I can't talk about my issues without offending somebody without fears of being labeled n canceled. As much as I'm leaning toward the left alot in my views it is kind of scary ti make friends in the left. because you feel like you can't have your own opinions or your own criticism without being out casted for one "wrong" word. /phase Natalie is an amazing and kind-hearted and sweet person yet so many attack her to the point she left her account. because of reading in between the lines. And seeing words they deem "problematic" Sjw use to stand for something. Now it's just become somewhat toxic and controlling in a way(some not all) Maybe that's just my experience.

@poopieinmybuthole3379

Жыл бұрын

No it's not just your experience I used to consider myself a radical leftist years ago but lately all the hypocrisy authoritarian Tendencies and obsession with race has alienated them

I haven't seen a lot of people address the issue of conflicting access needs in regards to this and it's a relief to see someone bring it up, because I think that a LOT of problems in leftist spaces are ultimately rooted in conflicting access needs and both (or all) sides of those issues end up getting painted as bad guys when the problem is that sometimes genuine good faith needs are mutually exclusive and every space cannot accommodate everybody. It's okay to need some different spaces and I think we would all be better off for realizing that.

@zieteniere7500

4 жыл бұрын

This comment should be higher up. nice work I feel like after reading these comments for 30 mins your comment sums it up succinctly.

I’m late to the party but YESSSS, Transtrenders was SO good, Baltimore Maryland was an amazing character and I continue to be baffled by people saying that character or video was NB phobic. I truly don’t know how somebody could twist something to the complete opposite intent like that and seemingly not even realize it.

Lux, I'm here, reading the comments and listening. Thank-you again for your compassionate and thoughtful discussion.

The term "Twitter discourse" is basically an oxymoron.

As a NB I can't see wheree she's nb-phobic, literally, she's sharing her experience and it's fine, she isn't attacking anyone. Twitter is so fckn toxic, seriously.

Omg you're so right about the SJW situation. I didn't think about it but I got there too... I don't have SJW friends anymore. I got yelled at because I wasn't doing enough about racism in Australia (I'm not Australian, I don't live in Australia. I've been there for 30 hours when I was a flight attendant!)

I'm bisexual and NB, and in both regards, I feel as if I exist at the fringes of the community. I'm only allowed to speak about the issues I face within my identity when it doesn't inconvenience queer people who's sexual and gender identities are binary. I think a lot of the backlash is coming from that place. Contrapoints didn't mean it in that way, but most nb people know what its like to be told their liberation is secondary, an inconvenience, and that can be triggering for some of us.

@biggtk

4 жыл бұрын

Contrapoints, like any other public figure, is not above criticism. My only issue is how poorly we tend to resolve conflict in this (lefty) community. And for those of us that are also a part of the LGBTQ community, the need for constructive and empathetic conflict resolution is two-fold. Why are we so quick to anger with each other? Why is it so easy for us to 'cancel' one another? That's what I don't understand.

@Mythic00

4 жыл бұрын

@@biggtk My impression is that much of the reason people are pretty quick to anger and lash out is that it feels like a betrayal. It's your friends and allies stabbing you in the back. There's more to it, but that seems to be a major issue fueling the hurt and anger.

When I read Natalie's tweets the other night I could kind of see where both sides were coming from, too. I hate to see something like this being so divisive when nb and binary trans people need solidarity with each other in the face of cisnormativity. In the case of some people who were offended by what she said, it does make some sense, considering that the constant invalidation lots of nb and non-passing trans people in particular face can kind of set them on the defensive. It's totally understandable in that context. . . My parents are psychologically abusive, and a large aspect of that is how they have invalidated me and still continue to, and I find that I have a tendency to get on the defensive a lot about different things b/c I basically expect invalidation. I'm trying to recognize and accept my feelings as valid, but I'm so sensitized to invalidation and honestly pretty fragile as a result of abuse, so whenever somebody says something that I perceive as invalidating I have no real defense against it, and so sometimes I have a strong reaction b/c I feel like I have to fight for myself. I can understand why some people perceived a threatening implication and reacted strongly. I can see Natalie's point though, too. Natalie has talked before about being held up like she's *the* voice of the trans community and how she never asked for that. She does come from a place of relative privilege in certain respects, and she admits to that. While she does maybe have some binary bias, that's kind of a given; people are people, people are biased. It is frustrating to see people being held to seemingly impossible standards on account of their visibility. Nobody is perfect, and certainly no one person can speak for an entire community. At times Natalie's work has maybe set me a little on edge, but upon reflection, her arguments make sense. The "Transtrenders" vid made me somewhat uncomfortable initially, but I've come to really love it, both for the argument in it and the artistic, performance aspect. Sometimes it seems like people forget that she's playing characters in her vids and making them somewhat over-the-top to throw in some comedy. As far as twitter goes, well, a person is going to be personal on their personal account. It seems clear enough to me that she wasn't intending to invalidate anybody, just voicing something she's experienced. Her support for nb people is in her videos, so it makes sense to keep that in mind when reading her posts. The whole situation is so tricky.

The relation to ADHD makes more sense then any way I had thought about this. Thank you so much, you have a new sub

Speaking as a non-binary person, I have never felt personally attacked by Natalie.

THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS I WAS THINKING THE EXACT SAME THING. I'm so glad I'm seeing someone else think this, thank you so much.

As someone who just graduated from a small liberal arts college I can say that what Natalie said is very accurate. I’m a bisexual cis woman and I try and learn everything I can from many different sides of the LGBTQ+ community (because not everyone has the same opinions or life experiences) and I’ve definitely noticed that on the first day of classes, if there is someone who either the professor or someone else perceives as possibly being trans or nb people will just start saying their own pronouns and it’s pretty clear who they’re waiting for to speak up on how they’d like to identify. It always felt super awkward and pointed to me, and I don’t think I would like that kind of attention on myself personally. Maybe I’m not the best person to speak on this but I feel like it would be nice for our society to reach a point where anyone could say their pronouns if they want to but it’s not like a “share circle” type of situation.

I was very happy to see Natalie mention this video in her newest! I hope it brings more attention to this channel, because I think you've done a great job explaining the complexity of the subject and your own standpoint. And because your channel's good in general.

I'm really happy to have found your channel, you're really good at expressing ideas I share. The vlog format is also probably a big step up from twitter, this platform has become a place where everything you write can and will be twisted or misinterpreted. I feel like this has led us, as a community, to focus on scrutinizing what our own say and immediately attack people without making sure that we understand each other. Like the arguments around the definition of trans, where I've found a lot of people actually don't put the same meaning behind the word dysphoria but argue like they're talking about the same thing... I still call myself a SJW, but it seems so much like every interaction in this community mostly brings me pain when I make a mistake, or fear to even make one that leads to censoring myself. That's so sad. We don't need to be hurt by each other on top of what we already experience daily.

What Natalie means: As a binary trans person being in spaces where attention is directly called to my transness triggers feelings of dysphoria What NB twitter hears: I hate non-binary people Some people just want to hate her, it's gross and pathetic. Deliberately using they/them pronouns on a binary trans person is misgendering them, plain and simple, she acknowledged that this was really a minor issue in the grand scheme of things, and even punctuated the tweet with a sarcastic phrase from her recent videos, but NB twitter went on the witch hunt anyway. So glad I left the tumblr-style screeching witch-hunt discourse when I did.

@violetsparkles5453

3 жыл бұрын

I don’t mean to burst your bubble but they/them being gender neutral means it can apply to people who identify as he/him and she/her too. It’s not misgendering in my opinion. If someone is unsure of the gender, they/them seems acceptable to me. Unless they specifically tell the person to use a certain pronoun, aside from that the entire premise of they/them is to generalize without specifying gender, and you don’t have to be NB for that word to work with you. Sorry

@SaKura-il8op

3 жыл бұрын

@@violetsparkles5453 but only going for they/them even though Natalie prefers she/her IS kind of rude.

@violetsparkles5453

3 жыл бұрын

@@SaKura-il8op maybe but it sure beats "he/him"

I know that this video is a year old and the controversy is *mostly* behind us but I just found this video and I wanted to take the time to applaud your sensitivity, understanding, and your willingness to be open and think critically about all this. It's awesome!

This is the first video of yours I've seen, I like you a lot and I love how you think. I'm old, like "get off my lawn" old and have been watching a lot of stuff from Contrapoints and a whole slew of others. I've learned so much it's astonishing and then you pop up with this and I'm delighted, thank you! Very much in fact.

Thank u for mentioning Kat Blaque, who is an amazing speaker and teacher!

Thank you for covering what happened since I missed it.

Thank you so much for posting this! The idea of conflicting accessibility needs was something I never would have thought of, and I think it's a really useful and clever frame for this sort of problem. Definitely going to check out more of your channel now.

And now she's deleted her Twitter. Good job, Twitter peeps. You got the threat.

I really enjoyed this discussion. I'm a teacher and I spend a fair amount of time deciding how I want to communicate "safe space" to my class without making anyone feel targeted by my bringing it up. It seems like the "woke" norm is to prompt a go-in-a-circle-and-say pronouns introduction, but I'm always nervous about the microaggressions that come out in some students when these circles happen. (I teach teenagers, sometimes they can be quick to roll their eyes or snort without considering it). For now, I'm working with "please let me know how to pronounce your name and your pronouns so I can speak to you the way you want to be spoken to" when I introduce myself, and I let students decide how much they want to tell me about themselves in their own time. It's not a perfect solution, and I'm glad to hear people discussing how potentially complicated the landscape of making everyone happy can be. I'm especially glad to see this discussion in the comments, where so many people are able to acknowledge each other's experience and thereby contribute to all of us being more empathetic and generally less shitty.

@evercuriousmichelle

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, as a cis-woman in higher education I want to create a safe space while not putting people on the spot.

I think the problem with this kind of thinking, "I look like a woman, why can't everyone just *know* my pronouns are she/her." is that it conflates presentation, gender, and pronouns, when in reality none if those things are equivalent. like I'm a nonbinary trans guy and I'm pre-T. Functionally, I look no different than a butch lesbian. Should we just assume anyone with that aesthetic is a man and use he/him? I think that's a mistake on a fundamental level.

@brittastrophe

4 жыл бұрын

it is a mistake to assume that anyone with a certain look or identity uses certain pronouns, but i think that's what natalie, or at least the woman she originally replied to, was touching on. like her, in woke spaces i've noticed people tend to only make a point of asking pronouns when there's gender non conforming or trans people and that can be quite othering and invalidating. i think a balance can be struck between validating non-binary identities and respecting the fact that for binary trans people a gender conforming presentation is often an affirmation of their identity and it can feel hurtful to have that effectively erased in woke spaces, even though as natalie said it is a minor discomfort.

@imgayasheck595

4 жыл бұрын

This is exactly it, she consistently makes this mistake

@MaoUtau

4 жыл бұрын

yes!! this is what I hate about this line of thinking. I'm a nb transfemenine person, in that my presentation is super femenine and that i'm taking feminizing hrt. Most people tend to assume I'm a trans woman. HOWEVER, I am not a woman, and people reading me as female because of my presentation triggers my dysphoria almost as badly as people reading me as male. I have shut myself off from most cis spaces because I cannot function in them, and I fucking WISH most cis spaces talked about pronouns where I live, but they just don't. There's no good solution to this.

@sasak369

4 жыл бұрын

@@MaoUtau I see a lot of people saying there's no solution to this, so I kind of want people to tell me just what is wrong with the solution to simply normalize asking pronouns. I realize that binary trans people feel validated when people assume their gender correctly, but if they have no reason to assume that they're being asked because they've been "clocked", but simply because it's a matter of standard procedure, there is literally no reason to be upset about it. It's like forms that ask your name and your gender - you could say "why am I being asked my gender, if I have a clearly feminine name? Is my name not feminine enough? Is my femininity being questioned?", but people don't do that because they know that that question is posed to everyone on all kinds of forms all the time simply because the correlation between names and gender isn't perfectly predictable and similarly the correlation between gender presentation and gender isn't perfectly predictable. I'm terribly sorry that I threw this wall of text at you, I was just using what you said as a springboard for my very inconsice thoughts.

@brittastrophe

4 жыл бұрын

@@sasak369 I agree, I think the solution is to normalize asking for pronouns in ALL cases, not just when you know or suspect there's a trans/gnc person around. Like if we start asking people we know are cis what their pronouns are it makes it less othering to do the same for trans people and destigmatizes trans people, especially nb people, being insistent upon their pronouns

Thanks for making this video. I think it's really important for people to be able to step into someone else's shoes for a moment and realize that different people have different needs and experiences.

I was just passing through, but this was amazing to find. Very well articulated and definitely boosts some of my thoughts on it. Thank you for making this!

Watched Kat's true tea from Tuesday which covered this again and it was interesting to hear the NB side of things from you. Thanks for sharing your feelings on the topic!

There's a fundamental message that got lost in her tweets. When she says "that hurts me" she doesn't mean "it's bad". It's ok to acknowledge giving up privilege.

the captions example was such a good one! i am cis with adhd and it helped me understand the topic from her perspective as well as yours. You are great at conversation/public speaking!

Just found this channel via YT recs and by the end when you were like “anyway time to go” I was like “NOOOOO I NEED MORE OF THIS PERSON” but then realized there’s a whole rest of your channel ☺️ Anyway, loved your insight! Really beautifully put opinions.

"competing access needs" was my repeated thought through all this discourse, as an autistic person with ADHD friends. I honestly feel kind of bad for Natalie; she literally hasn't asked for this kind of scrutiny, she mentions it in every video, she clearly has a lot personally invested in passing but I feel like that's hers to figure out on her own time. And I'll always appreciate the nuance she brings to discourse, even with videos like "The Aesthetic" that personally made me dysphoric. She gives me things to think about.

Left infighting is cancelled. This is the first video of yours that I’ve seen and so far I love it. Great content!!

tbh the sound/face you made at @14:04 scared the shi outta me because i was looking away and prior to that you had been so calm. I had to pause and tap this comment because of how much i laughed (at myself for getting spooked)!!!! I also really really like this video and you!

How do you not have more subscribers?! Just found your channel and you have my sub! As a cisgender woman, I must admit, I am sometimes confused by issues that are specific to trans/NB folks, but I try to understand and empathize by listening to trans/NB folks and I could honestly listen to you talk about social issues all day! Your delivery is fantastic and I love your voice

Ahh, so nice to hear an _adult_ talk about this subject.

I am a cis woman so I of course cannot relate or completely understand Natalie’s view or NB people’s view but, just from what I get from her videos, Natalie doesn’t seem like the type of person to try to invalidate someone else’s identity. also on a nonrelated note I have ADHD as well and I HAVE to have the captions on! I tend to zone out sometimes and they help me understand what’s going on and not get lost when I do zone out. they help me focus. so interesting how people with ADHD can experience it so differently! anyway I just found your channel and you’re extremely well spoken! I just subscribed. I hope you have a great day!’

I am genuinely so happy to find somone who has nearly the same expiriences as me. Like when you talked about not having any friends anymore because youre afraid to share an opinion. So glad i found this video. I wish we could be friends.

This video was great, and you did an amazing job of explaining what was happening & the misunderstanding of it all. The conversation that came from this situation is one that trans people have been needing to address for awhile, but there wasn't a whole lot of attention directed towards it until now. I'm glad you're talking about it.

I'm a cis male approaching his 30s who had trouble growing facial hair. That doesn't make me any less of a man just like it doesn't make trans men any less men.

Luxander I love you and I love this video. You have cleansed my pores, you have watered my crops and you have cleared my mind. 💜

You are so articulate and put things in words that I struggle to formulate myself. Thank you for sharing your views in these videos, I am so glad I found your channel

Thank you, this did make a lot of sense. And it's also really nice to hear a positive take on situations like this, rather than just everyone dumping on the conversation.

I kinda disagree with the notion that it's wrong or trying to be Too Woke (tm) to ask pronouns. What Natalie's implying is she'd rather have people guess, with the *assumption* being that everyone would guess female for her. In a perfect world, that'd be great, but if you jump back a few months (or years or however long) in a trans person's timeline, there's almost certainly a time where guessing would lead to constant misgendering. At that time in a person's transition, wouldn't you *want* people to do the name-pronoun thing? That way, even if you present male for safety reasons or don't have enough of whatever aspect(s) to pass as female, you'd still be validated and see that people want to validate you regardless? Given this example, which I know a lot of binary trans people deal with, wouldn't it be unreasonable to not value the same thing you once relied on/would've wanted? It's not just about binary versus nonbinary; it's also an issue of whether passing should be the norm in society for being accepted as a gender or if the name-pronoun introduction should be the norm. It's inherently tied to the idea that a gender is based on characteristics rather than what individuals make it to be, and the conflation of sex and gender. Natalie is annoyed (or maybe just inconvenienced) by the use of name-pronoun intros because it conflicts with the assumption she's a woman, but to assume a person is a woman is to assume a lot of other things about them based on inherently binary sex characteristics and presentations.

@Meteotrix

4 жыл бұрын

Intellectual concept that about 90% of people don't know about: the difference between "descriptive" and "prescriptive" speech (prescriptive speech tells people what to do, descriptive speech doesn't). Most people assume everything is prescriptive, and they're usually correct, but here Natalie's tweets were "descriptive", i.e. she never said people had to stop doing or start doing anything. What happens is, people hear/read a description, then guess what actions should be taken based on that description, then accuse the person who described the situation of telling them to do what they thought they should do based on that situation, when really they're the ones who came up with the idea of what to do based on the description. It's frustrating 'x) Like you said "natalie implied" except not really. /People/ implied out of natalie's tweets. I think.

@souleaterevans4589

4 жыл бұрын

@@Meteotrix I don't personally think she's telling anyone to do anything. I just see her making a case for why, as a passing trans woman, she sometimes dislikes the insistence on name-pronoun introductions from cis people simply because they know she's trans. I see things a little differently, and am using the same hypotheticals to argue my points. Neither of us is saying we should or shouldn't have either of those ways of approaching the situation. I don't mean to offend, but I don't see how telling me what other people are perceiving from her posts is relevant to my comment.

@conradkorbol

4 жыл бұрын

SoulEater Evans the problem is that we are all deeply emotional beings. She is talking about how she intellectually understands one side, but in spite of that doesn’t feel what she intellectually understands. I think that’s very human. The discussion really is do we do what is right for us, the majority, or for the minority? It’s really the discussion of America from conception.

@Meteotrix

4 жыл бұрын

@@souleaterevans4589 ok nice, I might've misread your initial comment, that sounds pretty correct then :3

@souleaterevans4589

4 жыл бұрын

@@conradkorbol I don't see it as majority vs minority. It's not that black-and-white. There are passing trans people, binary trans people who could use/want name-pronoun intros, nonbinary people, and gender non-conforming cis people who might benefit from name-pronoun intros. There's plenty of shades of gray, regardless of what singular minority and majority you're referring to.

So happy this came up in my recommended. You've just won another subscriber.

I had the same thought when I saw this unfolding on Twitter. I left a comment on Kat Blaque's video about this situation, but you articulated it a million times better. This is great stuff!

Twitter made me sad today, you made me feel better. Thanks for posting this!

I really like you take in the situation on Twitter and also about Natalie. I always come away from her video or should I say, works of art, blown away. She is so articulated, funny, graceful, self deprecating, serious, and balanced. Natalie is incredibly talented and intelligent and knows how to tear the subject apart and put it back together how it truly is for trans people with such skill. I would tell anyone that has never seen any of her stuff, and to anyone that has watched her already, to go watch her videos. If you’ve watched one, go back again in a week, month, etc., and watch it again. I am constantly finding little gems that I missed on the first watch. Thanks for talking about this Luxander. I agree with your full breakdown. Can’t we just express ourselves without full on backlash? Doesn’t seem to be the case. Good job. See you in the next video. Cheers

It took me actually hearing you read out the tweet to realize that "super fucking hard for us" is very much Natalie signalling that it's a minor point that shouldn't be taken very seriously.

Thank you so much for such a well-informed, comprehensive, and also personal perspective on this issue. I feel like any political side would have trouble not seeing where you are coming from unless they choose to remain ignorant and not open to any other perspective aside from their own beliefs- which is something we see a lot of these days on both sides of the political spectrum. You're awesome. We need more people who can have conversations in this manner.

Your video was suggested to me and i completely agree with you. These are exactly my thoughts when this happen. Thank you for making this video. I was starting to feel like I had lost my mind.

Thank you thank you I feel similarly but I’m not able to openly express that in my community

Im non-binary and I think everything she said is perfectly reasonable. She and many trans women have worked very hard to be gendered correctly without a second thought and to have that taken away must be very frustrating. Even though I go by they/them pronouns, i HATE being asked my pronouns. I know it's a contradiction but I didn't choose what I'm comfortable with. I hate the anxiety that it gives me and I hate the attention that my lack of gender draws. I thought it was absolute fucking nonsense when I saw someone give me the side-eye by people who weren't even non-binary, because I openly said I was not offended by Natalies words. Natalie is a woman, she deserves that perception.

This was so well said and sincere! I really enjoy her videos but was unsure of where I stood on this issue. You cleared up a lot.

Wow thank you! This popped for me up after a ContraPoints binge. For someone speaking a primary language without gendered pronouns this is helping me understand and extend the topic in it's diversity, not only the theoretical side of things but the experienced as well. Lately the conversation in the international forums has stressed the importance of criticality and what it practically leads to is an expectation to always question one's assumptions and ask. But in an incomplete world the "always" might not actually mean even treatment in all cases, rather trying to be "polite" where one finds the need for "special" actions. Concrete actions and how especially cis people approach uncertain situation might be counterproductive depending on the underlying attitudes displayed. Most nonbinary public speakers I know come from withing my own language and dialect context, so a viewpoint like yours is so important to navigate the discussions online and to learn about living human beings' experiences.

Thanks for your take on this!!

Something I question about the original tweet is the assumption that a trans person would automatically know what pronouns to use for everyone in the room, but the cis people would not. I get how a trans person might have more experience with this and a cis person might literally just need more practice (and what Natalie and the OP seem to both be saying is that it kinda sucks being the practice partner in the pronoun game, even though they know it's for the greater good or whatever). BUT SOMETIMES YOU JUST CAN'T TELL. Something interesting: Natalie is trans, so her only experience in these little pronoun circles is being in one where there is at least one trans person. I have done this exercise and by the end of it everyone in the room was cis binary (or at least seamlessly passing). I have also met people who present (so far as I can tell) 100% cis binary, but are in fact nonbinary and prefer they/them pronouns. Again, I can absolutely see Natalie and the OPs point here. They have put so much work into avoiding having their gender questioned, doing it deliberately in this 'safe space' probably feels very frustrating. But... idk, do all trans people have some kind of a radar that identifies gender?

@harlanhardway5955

3 жыл бұрын

@Ezmyrelda Andrade I guess my point was: traditional gender signifiers aren't always reliable anymore. After I've had a conversation with someone I might have a better feel for what their prefered pronouns probably are (it feels very awkward to ask, like I'm being insulting) but I have a male friend who occasionally shows up in light make-up and top with a nice boat neckline and maybe a skort or sometimes a pencil skirt. He's not in drag, his pronouns haven't changed, that's just how he dresses on occasion. And I know plenty of women who wear "masculine" clothing. A friend of mine once had to be patted down at the airport and they thought at first that she was a man so a male TSA agent came to pat her down and she had to explain otherwise (she is cis by the way, just has short hair and wears baggy clothing). I try to not misgender people. I especially try not to use "they" except for people for whom that is a prefered pronoun because it feels dismissive to me, as if I can't be bothered to remember who they are. Like yelling "hey, you" at someone across the room rather than asking to be introduced. In a normal social setting I would introduce myself, ask their name and have a chat. But that's not the scenario being described. The scenario described is one where you do an ice-breaker introduction circle where you all go around and say your name and pronouns.

@trawrtster6097

2 жыл бұрын

Sorry to reply to an old comment. I'm one of those cis-binary looking NB people who goes by they/them. I totally get where Natalie is coming from, but I think something worth mentioning is that in the existing gender system (at least in western cultures), there is no way to look like someone prefers they/them. So the "assume pronouns" policy puts the onus on NB people who go by they/them to either put up with misgendering or out themselves and explain, especially if that non-binary person doesn't look androgynous enough (not that NB people owe others androgyny). I often get questions that start to feel more like interrogation when I say I go by they/them since I look like what is traditionally expected for my AGAB; the underlying message is that they don't think I'm non-binary enough and that they shouldn't have to respect my pronouns. Even if I did medically/surgically transition or even just change my clothes and hair style to look more gender-ambiguous, I most likely can't escape being he/him'ed or she/her'ed and therefore be misgendered as a default. So I guess in that sense, binary trans people have a "privilege" of the potential to be automatically gendered correctly. Not saying Natalie or others can't feel like they want pronouns assumed, but I wish more people understood the unique problems for people who go by they/then.

this summarized a lot of my thoughts on this situation as well! thank you for helping me like articulate it!

I do think as a trans person in the public eye she's under a lot more scrutiny than a cis person in her position would be; but societal conditioning is hard to change. Your voice is very pleasant to listen to! :)

I think that potentially seeing all people who self identify or otherwise under a label for whatever reason as a monolith is kind of.... potentially bad. Idk, people are gonna be different, yanno? Like, I have a very dear friend who is genderfluid, and he explicitly says, "I don't like they/them pronouns, it confuses people and I don't like making people uncomfortable. The people who care about me know I'm a motherly grandma inside a 6'5" brown dude and I'm chill with that." There have been periods of time in the past where he tried different expressions, but he is comfy with what he expresses now. Is it wrong? No, not for him.

OH MY GOD YES THANK YOU I have the exact same issue with captions and ADHD but I’ve never heard anyone else mention that being a problem for them 😭

This was very informative and well spoken! Thank you for addressing it the way you did! I'm glad to get a better understanding of all this from an insider's perspective.

Can't we all just get along! Seriously, can you imagine how easy it is to be a conservative? You just need to really worry about what's good for white, straight, rich men and you're pretty much good. Hell, you'll probably even be praised and/or get elected president for consciously making a point of offending everybody who isn't exactly like you! Meanwhile, most progressives are generally concerned with a number of issues including race, sexuality, gender, healthcare, gun control, economics, and so on. And then on top of this you also have to take care of, and provide for, yourself and your family! However, saying one thing that can possibly interpreted as being somewhat against the interests of any of the factors can potentially result in you receiving a deluge of hate and people effectively calling for your excommunication from the discourse! And just to be blunt, if we don't want to deal with folks who express any measure of frustration at the pronoun issue then this fight is already lost. I'm a cis man and I never gave it one thought until I had trans and NB people in my life, but many people never really have significant relationships with such folk so for them the issue never becomes personal. I've met many folks, ranging from conservative to rather progressive, who don't understand this issue at all and/or actively ridicule it as being ridiculous. If you want to expand understanding of this issue, we need to be more patient and understanding. Language is something deeply ingrained in us from a very young age, so something as seemingly simple as changing our understanding of pronouns is actually a surprisingly difficult process. It's not a matter of just flipping a switch, it's more like rewiring the part of our brain that handles language.

Short form Twitter doesn't allow Natalie to explain why she assumes/thinks people are only going around introducing themselves with their pronouns because she's there. This is common practice now in "hyperwoke" spaces regardless of who's in attendance IMHO/in my personal experience. Regardless, Twitter is poison and bullies suck.

@charliekahn4205

3 жыл бұрын

IMO Twitter was meant for humor and creativity, not opinions.

Very thoughtful and insightful video. Loved it. Thanks for covering this drama, I had no idea what happened.

i have auditory processing issues, but also live with an adhd person, so i really felt the comparison with subtitles. excellent video :)

I get why she feels this way. I still think asking for pronouns as much as possible is good because you just never know how somone identifies. The outward presentation might signal to me that I am talking to a cis woman but it is totaly possible that they are non-binary. So to assume any ones gender even if they present extremely masculine or feminine might be totally wrong. Gender and presentation is so complex you can't just know a persons gender by looking at them. You might be right a lot of the time but the times where you aren’t probably hurt a person that struggles with being misgendered a lot. I can totally understand Natalies feelings and I think it is good she expressed them because this made me more aweare of how I might be unconsciously hurting somone and because this is important to talk about. She pobably would have had to clarify more clearly that she still thinks asking for pronouns is good. I think the "minor inconvenience" is a good subtle way of doing so. The problem with subtelty on social media in a time where a lot of people are in survival/defence mode is that it often gets overlooked. It is frustrating that we have to be so carefull with how we express our thoughts and feelings, especially since lgbtq+ people/activists/sjw hold each other to incredibly high (I would say too high) standards. But I also get it because I let my guard down in the spaces that make me feel safe and while listening to people I expect not to say something that would hurt me, so I am a lot more sensetive when there is something that hurts me. All this to say I get why both "sides" feel the way they do. Thanks for reading this super long rant ^-^

doesnt that kinda rely on passing tho? like so many of us nbs cant. i can pass as a woman but w my small stature, my height and my voice, my curves etc, there is no way i will be percieved as male, even in the absolute gendered of spaces. Even when I paint on a beard. literally

Thanks for making this! I kept seeing allusions to Nat's tweets but I couldn't really grasp what was going on.

This is the best take I've seen so far, because you really hit the nail on the head when you talk about conflicting accessibility needs. There's no version of the world that we could possibly create in which everyone's needs are perfectly met. Because needs often conflict. The best we can do is try to allow people to be honest about how they feel and what they need, and treat each other with respect and grace as we try to find compromises. That is NOT what happened to Natalie on Twitter. Perhaps I'm more aware of this problem because my life revolves around conflicting accessibility needs, in a very intense way. I have two autistic children, one who can't stand the sound of human voices, and one who has constant (and loud) vocal stereotypy. Life is about making compromises that represent your best effort at making this world as good a place as you can for as many people as you can. And sometimes there is no good answer. But there ARE good and bad ways to go about it. Denying the validity of someone else's experience to validate your own is a BAD way. I feel like that's the way some people treated Natalie. It's a world view that sees life as a zero-sum game, it's toxic, and it only pushes people down. It never lifts them up.

Critics say that Contra's supporters put her on a pedestal, but the real pedestal is the standard of flawlessness the critics want her to have

Most of the time, when I first meet someone, I avoid using pronouns at all, focusing on using the person's name until casual conversation makes their desired pronoun clear. (It doubles as helping me remember peoples names faster.) In the rare situations when I have failed to figure out pronouns (by being attentive and listening), I usually feel comfortable enough to ask. But honestly it's a last resort, because the only person who will not be offended by the question, is someone who is non-binary.