Excellent video. It functions perfectly as an in depth continuation of my original video. Also nice channel

@TheFallofRome

3 ай бұрын

Thank you for the compliment! And thank you very much for sharing this over on your channel!

@metatronyt

3 ай бұрын

@@TheFallofRome My pleasure 👍

@JohnsonPadder

3 ай бұрын

This is the KZread we all need

@oldmanbiscuit7518

4 күн бұрын

@@JohnsonPadder They could turn it up a bit. Historians' beefs should always be like they were in ancient Greece. "Behold, a source!"

Your opening about the nature of history in the ancient world is a something that should be nailed to every wall of every amateur historian.

@tomtaylor5623

3 ай бұрын

cringe

@farhanatashiga3721

3 ай бұрын

​@@tomtaylor5623you're the cringe one here

@fukpoeslaw3613

29 күн бұрын

Could you please give the timestamps?

@fukpoeslaw3613

29 күн бұрын

Could you please give the time stamps?

@fukpoeslaw3613

29 күн бұрын

Test1

Like the accounts of most deposed Roman Emperors, sometimes we have to take them with a grain of salt. With those emperors being deposed, they're the losers of history and any accounts written by them will be more likely to paint them in a bad light to justify their deposition. Just look the account of Caligula threatening to name his horse as consul. Out of context that seems insane right? But in another lens it could just be Caligula mocking the Senators showing how useless they were in his eyes. This would be consistent with the overall theme of him trying to setup the Roman monarchy around ideas of "Eastern Despotism" that other hellenic kings used. This later reached its final cumulation when Heraclius took the title of Basileus, the same monarchical title that Alexander the Great had.

@Stand_By_For_Mind_Control

3 ай бұрын

I think the biggest truth lies in the ease at which the Praetorian Guard could be swayed because of their ability to do immediate regime change. Thereby increasing their own wealth and power successively. Very similar to what happened with the Janissaries. They became the political arbiters and no matter what the actual situation with an Emperor was, making them happy and offering them promises was always the most important factor. The posthumous indictments of those emperors often just comes off as justifying the act of murdering them. "We HAD to do it to save you poor folk at the bottom from all that indignity and excess". I'm very cynical about that lol.

@alanpennie8013

3 ай бұрын

Heraclius is definitely an interesting guy, not least because he was a Christian champion named after a pagan god.

@signalhilltv5237

3 ай бұрын

LOL even Columbus you have to take his accounts of the native Americans with a grain of salt because he is trying to get more money from Spain. But keep in mind a lot of KZread historians make content to get views bait and wait, if you respond to them, it keeps them in the algorithm.

@InnerDness

3 ай бұрын

But we also shouldn't assume everything is made up

@signalhilltv5237

3 ай бұрын

@@InnerDness ROFL I am going to help you out. Justin said "sometimes" not every time I know its social media and "some' people feel the need to have their voice heard. "Some of Hitler's generals, every bad decision was his fault. You can take "some' of their accounts with a grain of salt.

I've always been told that it's better to think of Ancient Historians as journalists, rather than what we think of as historians.

@aidanmagill6769

3 ай бұрын

Cathedral journalists.

Another outstanding video, sir. I greatly admire how you deal with these and other historical topics. Keep up the great work!

@TheFallofRome

3 ай бұрын

Thank you!

it's interesting to note that only about 70years after the foreign sun god's temple and worship is erased and replaced or rededicated to Jupiter, another Emperor (the more successful Aurelian) again elevates the more Roman god Sol Invictus above Jove.

@recoil53

3 ай бұрын

I thought that Sol Invictus had a lot of Eastern influence and was not strictly Roman. I've seen the term Sol Indiges for the earlier Roman god.

@molochi

3 ай бұрын

@@recoil53 Syncretism was a thing for almost all the Roman deities. Sol Invictus wasn't just a transplanted foreign god with a bunch of foreign priests tho . You could even say Sol Invictus was the gateway god that allowed the transition to Christianity.

Sorry I'm just a few minutes in, but I have to comment that the Crimes of Elagabalus isn't the most recent academic book on Elagabalus. That goes to "The Mad Emperor" by Harry Sidebottom. And despite the title making it seem sensationalist, he's very even-handed and academic about analysing Elagabalus. In fact, I'd argue he does a better job of it than Icks: a large portion of his book is dedicated to analysing the historical afterlife of Elagabalus (which is still extremely interesting), whereas Sidebottom stays in the time of Elagabalus himself and analyses him through several different contemporary lenses, such as his culture of sexuality. Icks did a great job, but if you only read one book on Elagabalus, I'd recommend Sidebottom's work first.

@TheFallofRome

3 ай бұрын

Ah, it seems that came out a little over a year ago. I was not aware of it Edit - a word

@bearmont9238

3 ай бұрын

Excuse me for being juvinelle, but can we appreciate that the man who wrote a book about the male Emperor accused of being the passive partner of multiple men; a bottom,was written by a man named Harry..Side...Bottom...

I was a historian in training on Roman history until I switched fields. The first thing the professor I was training under said about ancient histories was that they were first and foremost entertainment. Thucydides comes closest to trying to just report the facts but even he embellishes. History in the modern academic sense did not evolve until many centuries later.

@BernasLL

3 ай бұрын

There are still such "historians" today.

@FoggyMcFogFace

3 ай бұрын

@@BernasLL And they'll have youtube channels with the name "historian" or "history" in it Not referring to this one lol, this channel seems to put an effort into being truthful from what I've seen so far and that at least should be the standard if you want to be a history communicator.

@jeremias-serus

3 ай бұрын

@@FoggyMcFogFacelike… this one?

@FoggyMcFogFace

3 ай бұрын

@@jeremias-serus read second part of comment pls

@johng4093

25 күн бұрын

YT history is all about ancient aliens and the conspiracy to cover up that history. I'd prefer Roman history.

Thanks for sober and reasoned take on a controversial figure.

@TheFallofRome

3 ай бұрын

You’re welcome!

@terrymortal5517

3 ай бұрын

Why is he controversial?

@count.3842

3 ай бұрын

@@terrymortal5517 he sucked

@count.3842

3 ай бұрын

@@terrymortal5517 often times literally

@terrymortal5517

3 ай бұрын

@@count.3842 what? Do you even know why he's controversial or do you just repeat what you hear

Whenever I read about western roman sources calling someone from the east gay, I immediately think its just slander. This should be the null hypothesis, the starting point of reasoning, because we know it happened ALL THE TIME.

@talpark8796

3 ай бұрын

well, huh...that's *gay* 😁

@rc8937

3 ай бұрын

Cassius Dio, Herodian, and the Byzantine historians mentioned in this video were from the Greek speaking eastern provinces and wrote their works in Greek. So, no slander to worry about in this case according to your logic.

@citricdemon

3 ай бұрын

My favorite bit of slander comes from Suetonious, and it's all those times he calls Caesar "the Bithynian queen" variously through the mouths of Cicero, his own soldiers, and himself. I've never read anything to corroborate it, but his Caesar is the most well researched of his 12 Lives.

@violasses

3 ай бұрын

@@rc8937greeks don't consider themselves eastern. the eastern roman empire thing was only based on relative position, people they would consider to be foreign, barbaric and oriental would be the arameans and jews, for example.

@alanpennie8013

3 ай бұрын

​@@rc8937 Tbf from the Greek pov Elagabalus was useless Syrian rather than a Greek.

Kinda wild how we apply modern thought processes to ancient themes.

@TheDanEdwards

3 ай бұрын

"we apply modern thought processes to ancient themes." - happens all the time. Indeed, I think we should consider it the default method of how history is read. It takes work to peel back one's contemporary biases.

@robertkalinic335

3 ай бұрын

Its not wild, its impossible any other way. There is reason we dont argue about what was the favourite ancient color or idk... which hand they used to clean their ass. Its a part of doing history.

@jaded9234

3 ай бұрын

@@TheDanEdwards Not necessarily, one of the struggles in history is the preventing of "Modern" people from attempting to apply their modern views and standards to the people of the past. People who had a completely different idea of what did and did not constitute as a "positive" development. Someone born in Greece in the 5th century B.C.E. is likely going to have an entirely different view of various things and just because modern opinions have changed, that doesn't negate the opinions of those people. Ancient notions of a "good life" should not be discounted because the society of the "Modern" historian disproves.

Strange ruler that wanted Sun to be main god? Sounds familiar. Pharaomiliar if you will

@arddermout6946

3 ай бұрын

akhenaten enters chat

@samsonsoturian6013

3 ай бұрын

The Romans never stopped having a god associated with the sun. What are you talking about?

@franjokralj2104

3 ай бұрын

Even Constantine the Greats main god was for some time the Sun.

@talpark8796

3 ай бұрын

*the 'council of nicea'*, anyone? 😀

@juwebles4352

3 ай бұрын

@@samsonsoturian6013 he never said they didn't? it was the bringing of a syrian sun god to the fore-front of the pantheon he was referring to. How did you interpret his message to come to this reply?

I love how in-depth you go in your vids. Your talk about the development of Roman institutions has been super inspiring to me

Excellent video. Elagabalus is a truly fascinating figure, and trying to separate the real man from the likely caricature that came down to us is a fascinating puzzle. A lot of videos about him on KZread focus on either sensationalising the stories about him for laughs, or use him as a point for modern debates about sexuality and gender. It's very nice to see a video about him on here that gives his story an academic treatment, and tells his story in a more objective light. Nice work.

@TheFallofRome

3 ай бұрын

Thank you!

Heh, back in the mid-90s I was writing a paper on Rome and the Barbarians for a graduate level course (though not a graduate student myself. The only copy of the Scriptoria Augusta I could find was an old Loeb Classical Library edition from the end of the nineteenth century. In my haste to finish the project (I frequently bit off more than I could chew in those days) I cited all of the pseudo-authors for the sections of the text I used, forgetting that it was a most likely a forgery written by one person. Whoopsie...

@alanpennie8013

3 ай бұрын

You're in good company really. It's amazing that professional historians continue to use this utterly useless book.

Somewhat off-topic, but I really appreciate this channel. As an aspiring history major this kind of professional, factual and interesting presentations help me to learn and try to imitate some of your way of teaching. Additionally the community around the channel itself is usually very helpful, respectful and knowledgeable about the topics. Thank you man!

Much awaited, much appreciated looking forward to excellent insights as always from you.

Have just been catching up on youtube drama over the past 12 months or so I was not aware of vaguely related to this. I have long appreciated your channel, respect your knowledge and enjoy your presentation of academic literature. I hope you can keep on keeping on as you always have been, thanks for all.

Given that a) Elagabalus was of a stereotypically effeminate ethnicity, b) he seems to have gone out of his way to insult the Roman people and their religion especially, and c) accusations of sexual degeneracy seem to have been almost the default accusation when one was trying to discredit an enemy in that society, none of the allegations against him ought to be taken very seriously in the absence of very good evidence - except for the evident fact that he aggressively courted his own demise in a society where Emperors rarely died of natural causes.

I tend to be pretty ambivalent towards most horrifying stories about Emperors just because of how pendulous the politics were at the time. Even if you had 5 writers agreeing on a topic, you have to consider when they lived and what the 'party line' at the time was and what they were generally allowed to have as opinions without risking their neck. It's cool that we have so much written opinion from Roman writers but archaeology is the only thing you can truly trust. I have evidence for battles or who built what but I don't have evidence for skeevy sex orgies that were only spoken about in ire. For all I know that's what Roman Q anon looks like.

@MarikHavair

3 ай бұрын

I just looked at all the bullshit political shit stirring that happens today and that's all you need to know that there's a 50/50 chance anything a Roman scholar wrote was bullshit.

Algorithm. I love when your videos blow up.

@TheFallofRome

3 ай бұрын

Me too!

Loved this video, really appreciate the academic and thoughtful analysis that your channel always provides. Keep it up king

I'm glad to see there's more to Elegabalus than just "Ineffective Weirdo".

@ricardolorrio8228

3 ай бұрын

agreed...

@BoredSquirell

3 ай бұрын

Well the conclusion is that Elegabalus really was an ineffective weirdo kid. Some details might have been embelished though.

It looks like most of the people in the comments have not even watched the video lmao

@tertmade9769

3 ай бұрын

This side is correct and the other is correct as well, my opinion on this is Metatron and Historian Craft can talk and share about this in private, since they're both open

Thank you for such thorough contextualisation! Really enjoying the general contextualisation and re-evaluation of Ancient Roman figures that have just been lazily labelled "the bad ones".

I think we need to see a livestream with these two (The Historians Craft and Metatron) discussing a topic of ancient history.

@r0ky_M

3 ай бұрын

Actually no, Met. is a lightweight flake of no great repute in academic circles.

@sowianskizonierz2693

3 ай бұрын

@@r0ky_Mwhy do you say that?

@r0ky_M

3 ай бұрын

@@sowianskizonierz2693 Because it's true.

@sowianskizonierz2693

3 ай бұрын

@@r0ky_M I guess he upset you somehow? Sorry to tell you but no one posting history youtube videos is of "great repute" in the history community.

@r0ky_M

3 ай бұрын

@@sowianskizonierz2693 You can keep making wild stupid guesses, but be aware you could not be more wrong; for there are some great Oxford and Cambridge Professors of Greco-Roman history on YTube ...who also have a list of proper academic publications.

If this is ever put on screen it would be one hell of a comedy.

@alanpennie8013

3 ай бұрын

Alfred Duggan wrote a pretty good historical novel which could be adapted.

I wonder how much of ancient history is based on sources so thin we can't possibly tell truth from fantasy.

@sowianskizonierz2693

3 ай бұрын

a lot. like a lot alot.

@alanpennie8013

3 ай бұрын

The early third century is pretty well covered. Dio and Herodian are both regarded as pretty reliable.

@alanpennie8013

3 ай бұрын

The main problem with Dio is that we don't actually have his own account of his times (which would have been a really great source) but rather an epitome of it by a Byzantine monk called Xiphilinus.

@alanpennie8013

3 ай бұрын

Herodian is often denigrated for no good reason other than that he was a Greek and not an aristo.

@alanpennie8013

3 ай бұрын

The Historia Augusta is in my view completely useless since an unknown (but probably large) part of it is pure fiction.

The people who called him effeminate hated him, it was a diss

@Enriiiiiii

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, I can understand the idea around trying to coin him like that. but it actually more reinforces.

Mike: "how do I keep this explanation KZread friendly?" Background: Un-clothed women in a parade

@crouchback4820

3 ай бұрын

For those who are curious (I was), that background was an illustration by Auguste Leroux for the 1902 edition of Jean Lombard's novel about Elagabalus called L'agonie.

@stooge_mobile

3 ай бұрын

@@crouchback4820 Based find

Interesting. Thanks a bunch for sharing this with us Big Dog!

Hey, looking forward to watching this video but I noticed you mention that this is a response in the title, could you link the video you're responding to in the description maybe?

@TheFallofRome

3 ай бұрын

Yup, just linked it

Your clear explanation and analysis of how history is....er...crafted....is just brilliant 👏 👌. Gives us all such an appreciation of what it takes to understand our world...thank you!!!!!

Please subtitle the video, the auto-generated subtitles have a lot of issues with the names and places. Good video, very informative

A topic ive wanted you to go over since I found your channel! Thank you for the information and summary. In return I will boost the algorithm with a comment

Material evidence always takes priority over written sources since written sources went through at least one human filter that was likely not interested in objectivity. Written sources must be corroborated by material evidence or at least other, entirely independent written sources. The more there are the better. The Germans coined a rather nice term for handling sources: Quellenkritik (source criticism).

Thanks for giving us a more objective look at Elagabalus. It seems to me that stories of his “degeneracy,” as the Romans would have described it, might have been played up for the sake of political invective. I’m reminded of the “Queen of Bithynia” rumors spread by Julius Caesar’s enemies.

I wonder. Are the little pieces of the black stones that constitute the black stone Muslims worship in Mecca the same as the black stone of Elagabalus?

@gabriellima7900

3 ай бұрын

No, but the reverence to 'heavenly stones' is a very ancient religious custom in the Middle East. Just google 'Baetylus'.

@alanpennie8013

3 ай бұрын

Not exactly the same. But there does appear to be a family resemblance.

You've piqued my inters with mentions of Nero. Maybe you could make video about him?

@alanpennie8013

3 ай бұрын

Until then I can recommend Raoul McLaughlin's series on the death of Nero and his curious afterlife from a couple of years ago.

Inconsequential nitpick: Elagabuls being the son of Caracalla's first cousin makes them first cousins once removed, not second cousins as stated at 20:39. If Caracalla had children, those children and Elagabalus would be second cousins.

Probably the best video I've watched regarding Elagabalus.

It is a fairly interesting topic. And such a pity that most of the sources are so unreliable yet regardless of that, they underline an important message from the modern interpretation: these kinds of behaviours seem to be ancient. Way too often get things like non-hetero sexuality or non-cis identities seen as a phenomenon of recent times. If an emporer was trans or not or if they were bi or gay or straight doesn't matter as much in this case, as that it matters that ancient historians had these concepts as things to reference at hand. It shows that those things existed even back then.

Excellent as always, thank you

Interesting. Thanks bro!

This channel is just excelent.

@TheFallofRome

3 ай бұрын

Thank you

I would argue that it was probably Alexander's mother & grandmother that led the demonisation efforts against Elagabalus & his mother, given Alexander was even younger than Elagabalus when he succeeded as Emperor...

Fun fact: Elagabalus gave his original first name to the practice of Sexting

Thank you for the video 😊

It must have become confusing when every emperor was called M. Aurelius. Macrinus should have carried on the war with Parthia. It was his own lack of self confidence which did him in.

I see you are knowledgeable on more modern history as well.😊

I have actually spoke with Dr. Icks a few times, so I am absolutely elated to finally see this video up! Elagabalus is a very interesting Roman figure for me, and I feel that examining their life and place within Severan/principate imperial policy is an oblique, but also rewarding endeavor in that you can learn a lot about Roman cultural views and power legitimation proliferating in historiography; and it’s always welcome hearing you bring up Watts’ book! Loving the video so far!

@alanpennie8013

3 ай бұрын

Elagabalus is an interesting study in how not to Roman emperor. Really being a boy emperor was an impossible job.

that bust looks like several people I have known over the years, none of them have had much... substance...

Well that's strange. I think youtube unsubscribed me from your channel for some reason... again. I was wondering why you weren't uploading and as it turns out your channel didn't show up in my subscribe feed. I have the feeling that if you didn't have Metatron in your title (whom I am also subscribed to) I would not figure this out. Anyway does anyone have any idea why this keeps on happening? I swear it happens with only some channels but yours seems to be just cursed for me. At any rate I think I have quite the backlog to catch up on

@TheFallofRome

3 ай бұрын

Hm, that is strange. Not sure what that’s happened, but anyway, welcome back!

I can quote in elegiacs all the crimes of Elagabalus. Unfortunately, I still don't know what is meant by 'mamelon' and 'ravelin'.

Good analysis.

Looking forward to hearing your perspective on the subject, a lot has been said and a lot of it was dubious, hope to get some clarity. And since you mentioned him in the title, I don't think Metatron is a dubious source, quite like the man

@HomeRudeGirlz

3 ай бұрын

Dude, you're supposed to say "first"

@TheFallofRome

3 ай бұрын

Thanks. If you want a *full* coverage, one of the major books I used was “The Crimes of Elagabalus”, the most up to date treatment of the emperor. Obviously I can’t condense a whole book into thirty minutes or so, so if you want a deep dive, check that out

@Zaeyrus

3 ай бұрын

@@TheFallofRome i can't say i'm that interested. Regardless of his sexual life, he wasn't an impressive leader/administrator/warrior for me to be that interested in him. I wish to hear your thoughts in order to dispel any kind of propaganda coming from dubious sources. Thank you however on the book recommendation edit: your thoughts as a summarized collection of the sources you mentioned, that is*. Obviously I should read the book for the correct info, but I trust you'll relay and summarize enough for me to skip reading it ;)

@Zaeyrus

3 ай бұрын

@@HomeRudeGirlz I know, I choose chaos this time!

@MrAlepedroza

3 ай бұрын

Learn to detach your feelings then. Metatron is often quite inaccurate about lots of stuff he says, he rage baits constantly and his followers just give him a pass as long as he panders to their rage baiting.

i'm sorry, did you say elagabalus's first wife was named "paula?"

@gabriellima7900

3 ай бұрын

Yes, Julia Cornelia Paula.

I feel like you mention "salt" in every video, it's like a trope of this channel.

Have you read Harry Sidebottom’s recent book on this?

@TheFallofRome

3 ай бұрын

I actually wasn’t aware of it until someone mentioned it in the comments. Needless to say it’s on my to be read list

@qboxer

3 ай бұрын

@@TheFallofRome I have only read his fiction, which is set in the Third Century and superb, but it’s also on my list. Do please let us know if it is good!

fantastic video examining this subject matter. we should be very careful when applying modern cultural norms and values to events and people so far in the past.

@craigmason9893

3 ай бұрын

I don’t think so

Thank you for the very intriguing video. What an amusing comments section 😂😂😂

19:11 that story eerily reminds me of a quote of "Voices of the Past" about "Dai Shin - what did the Chinese know about the Romans", where such a form of taking petitions also is described. Voices of the Past, however, deemed this as a legend. I think this may have been the source. kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZoyYstGdftq5d7g.htmlsi=vJB4g_MAyHoznRu1&t=5m7s

High praise from some prominent dudes! Great work besides!

amazing.

Thank you for making this video. Context and sources are always key, and I'm afraid it often gets tossed down the drain in pop history, especially online. I honestly hesitate to watch Metatron because while he's clearly very knowledgeable, he has this stated agenda of combating every "woke" appropriation of history (not his words, but it's pretty clear). Which is fine when there are actual misrepresentations, but he seems exclusively focused on that and not, say, on various far-right appropriations which are (imo) significantly more dangerous. All this to say I'm not confident his bias isn't coloring some of his takedowns.

@Kaczyfunny

3 ай бұрын

Far right history? What exactley is far right history bias? Well i have a clue about it, but its not about Elagabalus.

@samrevlej9331

24 күн бұрын

@@Kaczyfunny Yes, I’m talking about a KZreadr this video references.

"Sol Invictus Elagabalus" to be more precise , origins in Greek Titan 'Helios'..Roman Apollo also being a solar divinity.

Aah😩 poor roman emprors, they didn't get it easy😅

@samsonsoturian6013

3 ай бұрын

It's not like identical abuse doesn't happen today. You will notice that people pushing LGBT rights are the same people photoshopping world leaders into women's clothes.

Lol im gonna fight the emperor and see how that goes for me

The name Elagabalus refers to the god Baal.

i only know him from yaoi

No wonder he was hated by his contemporaries!

@HontasFarmer80

3 ай бұрын

"Call me not lord, for I am a lady" -- Elagabalus that is why she was hated.

@dartmart9263

3 ай бұрын

@@HontasFarmer80 LOL Is he their new patron saint?

@theangryholmesian4556

3 ай бұрын

She was most likely trans by modern standards. Cope. ​@@dartmart9263

@bluewizzard8843

3 ай бұрын

​​​@@HontasFarmer80this was a man Not a lady. Of course a highly degenrated one .

@coloradoing9172

3 ай бұрын

@@theangryholmesian4556 He was? According to whose standards? Yours?

*A name is mentioned briefly in a handful of contemporary sources* Hoomans 20 centuries later: He literally me fr fr

Is he.... you know... Syrian?

@TheDirtysouthfan

3 ай бұрын

Yes, he came from Homs, Syria. El Jabal, his god, was an Arab Sun God.

ALL GLORY TO THE HISTORIAN'S CRAFT!

Funny, the more hated roman historians were of Emperors, the more popular with the populace they seemed to be.

The femboy emperors 😂😂😂

1:06 how can they assume his gender???

@bluewizzard8843

3 ай бұрын

Because they feel entitled to do so.

400th comment

Rome declares war on Parthia/Sassania. Rome maybe wins some battles yet political instability makes it lose the war and pay the persians a ton of money. the persians were in the best position there. Rome knew how to burn money :))

Well, Severus Alexander have been described as a virtuous emperor, yet he was murdered ...

@bluewizzard8843

3 ай бұрын

Yeah many emperors were murdered. Murder does not always mean that the Person deserves to be murdered, elagabalus on the other hand was certainly a catastrophic emperor.

@alanpennie8013

3 ай бұрын

You just couldn't win, at least in the third century. Three emperors in succession murdered by the soldiers.

No one alive actually witnessed it, so everything we "know" about the past is just only in our mind to be precise. 😑

In my view you are insightful to stress the fact that Elagabalus was a young man who was used in a power struggle between competing religious factions. You also note the matriarchal nature of his upbringing. The commercial consequences of cults that had power in the Roman world is something is often overlooked. "Temples" in the Roman world were not simply places where folks went to pray. They were very much centers of commercial activity, places where guilds met and where contracts were brokered. Contracts to service the Roman state, especially the army, were highly prized and the subject of inevitable intrigue and fierce competition. In this context, the difference between the Roman world and the east is curious, because one of the innovations of the Roman world was the adoption of male priests. In the east, and also in the early roman period, religious office was always reserved for the females of the ruling families. In Greece, also, the history of religious administration was dominated by women. It seems likely to me that very few of Elagabulus's actions were his own, and that most of his controversial political and religious actions were undertaken at the instigation of his family. His personal conduct, insofar as records of it are truthful, no doubt stem from his upbringing amidst an environment of extremely powerful women. He would hardly be the only young man in history, raised by powerful matriarchs, who preferred to be perceived as a woman. As usual, this was a first rate examination of historical sources. Nice work.

@petervinberg6823

3 ай бұрын

What east do you mean? In zoroastrianism priests where male. Buddism monks where\are more respected then nuns.Hinduism have only priests as well.

@jumalAnni

3 ай бұрын

@@petervinberg6823east as eastwards until roughly India, I think

@MarikHavair

3 ай бұрын

@@petervinberg6823 Immediately east of Rome.

This whole affair just staggers me. He is a historical figure. And historical figures are best never put on a moral pedestal, or judged by our modern standards. If they happen to be a Roman emperor that principal ought to be doubled. And if that Roman emperor just so happens to be one of the MAD EMPERORS, I just can’t. These people at this museum need to get professional help. How bad must things be in your personal life to see *Elagabalus* as some kind of historical moral hero? A lack, perhaps, of other applicable heroes? I dare not speculate. Staggering.

@Speederzzz

3 ай бұрын

I haven't seen the video yet, but if you refer to the idea that one museum portrayed Elegabulus as trans: Usually it's not about seeing them as a hero, but more as proof that things like this have always existed. People are allowed to be a minority without being good or heroic.

@Boofi-quat

3 ай бұрын

@@Speederzzz Name one other. The fact that big E would appear to be the only one wouldn’t attract me to him for that virtue alone. Nor would it exactly speak well of the thing as a whole, now would it? If I was them, to be honest, I’d try to keep such a wretched figure as far away from my little political movement as possible, rather than hail him as some kind of pioneering figure.

@Speederzzz

3 ай бұрын

@@Boofi-quat you could look look at the priests of I think Aštarte? There are many women who dressed as men most of their live, you have the Public Universal Friend, it's easy to just google it. But I don't get why a person has to be good in order to be a minority. Bad people exist for every group. Given enough time, every arbitrary group will produce a serial killer due to how we are more alike than we are different.

@HontasFarmer80

3 ай бұрын

@@Boofi-quat The fact is in times that far back it was rare for anyone who wasn't a ruler or a VERY rich and powerful person to be written about by name. There was a class of people in classical Rome called the Gali. These were supplicant priest of Cybele who mostly word womens clothing, castrated themselves, sang, danced, and did sex work for money. So there's a whole set of them. The Archgalus had to be a Roman citizen and was prohibited by law from being castrated (though some did it anyway).

@theangryholmesian4556

3 ай бұрын

Where did you get the idea that the musuem sees her as a hero? Trans people exist. Some good some bad. Cope.

I very much appreciate your look at Elagablus and especially the issue of his “exploits”. The whole reason I know of him is the echo his gender/sexual identity has produced in the present, although I’ve found your discussion of the details of the political context very enligthening. Im genderqueer myself so its important to me to make the most educated guess we can regarding Elagablus‘ identity. Telling our history matters a lot to me, but IMO doing that, one has to be mindful of following the (slanderous) accounts of transphobic people from a (in large parts) transphobic culture to closely. So thanks a lot for this, and being so helpful in getting a clearer picture of the guy. Also as a normally „silent“ subscriber I’ll just take this opportunity say: I love your channel a lot and am very appreciative of the critical analysis of what sources there are and what they are able to say ( originally, I came for the coverage of late antiquity and on YT coverage of that topic can be wild. Great work on the Soissions video btw.) looking forward to more in 2024!

@androsbasileus1682

3 ай бұрын

Lol gross

@TheDanEdwards

3 ай бұрын

​@@androsbasileus1682"Lol gross" - care to expand on that?

@HontasFarmer80

3 ай бұрын

@@androsbasileus1682 I know you are but what are we?

@HontasFarmer80

3 ай бұрын

Gender queer at least. Then there is the fact that Roman culture while super manly also tended to treat YOUNG "effeminate males" as sex objects. Some have suggested that Elagabalus may have been discarded because they were getting up there in age, being 18, and weren't manly enough.

@consumersatisfaction6762

3 ай бұрын

I feel like that term could be useful for describing people in Antiquity, without anachronistically using a concept our own culture has produced on people who wouldn’t have described themselves in exactly that way. Although depending on your interpretation of the sources I think you could also argue for them being trans. Very interning perspective you gave on that in your own comment btw. I only read it after writing my own. But the singularity of their desire for surgery is definitively something that merits exploration. Although personally I’m still not convinced that we can assume Elagabalus actually said that.

The concept of gender fluid didn't exist back then. If it's a social construct, then that specific social construct was not defined at this time. Therefore he could not have been. Saved you the time

Please, notice this line of history in which less light-spotted historical facts by Western historians and otherwise: an influential Syrian family from Emessa reached to power and influential women, followed by Caracalla, then Elagabalus, followed by Philip the Arab who was a Syrian from Shahba south of Damascus, then came Zenobia, who sought the independence of her Syrian/Palmyrene state, and just before her was her husband whose history and story, murdering him with his elder son in particular, still vague and too mysterious. All were demonized, denigrated, discriminated against and all vices were attached to. Don''t you think there is something deliberately fishy there from Romans and Roman/Western historians/figures? Obviously, the question of representing the "other" was and definitely still is problematic in the Western narration in particular as it is problematic in human's narration up to this moment!!

Rome had its up and downs like all civilisation. Historians of the time lived in an authorian rule where the wrong word could cause your life to be forfeit, conversely say the right words, you were elevated regardless of merit. Same as modern historians in prewar fascist Germany and Soviet USSR. To avoid this point is to avoid the biggest reality when reading ancient texts. The perceived view of Antiones led to every other wanna be emperor to say they were going to restore Caesar Antione glory to Rome, so this view in my opinion led to Rome final decline.

@flyveto457

3 ай бұрын

Not so similar analogy, Rome is definitely an authoritarian dictatorship but it doesn't have that extensive secret police networks like that of the Gestapo or the KGB that the Nazis and the Soviets once had, also, Roman dictators don't have an access to highly sophisticated identification system that modern day dictators loved to abuse...

@gardenlizard1586

3 ай бұрын

@flyveto457 One of Procopius biggest gripes against Justian was how the emperor disbanded the paid spy network, which was a Roman and Persian custom. An interesting line in his third (?) history, which is much overlooked. I have a migraine, so I am not looking up at the moment, but will later.

@gardenlizard1586

3 ай бұрын

​@flyveto457 Procopius The Anecdota. I believe this book to be the work of the historian Procopius (on this you can believe your horse in the horse race). Given these 2 statements, it is obvious that the emperorship had a paid and organised intelligence service, both external and internal at least by the authors time. That emperorship had the possibility of possessing a spy or intelligence service paid for by the state is a missed prospective of Roman history. Chapter I.2-3 "² The reason for this is that it was not possible, as long as the actors were still alive, for these things to be recorded in the way they should have been. For neither was it possible to elude the vigilance of multitudes of spies, nor, if detected, to escape a most cruel death. Indeed, I was unable to feel confidence even in the most intimate of my kinsmen. ³ Nay, more, in the case of many of the events described in the previous narrative I was compelled to conceal the causes which led up to them. It will therefore be necessary for me in this book to disclose, not only those things which have hitherto remained undivulged, but also the causes of those occurrences which have already been described." Chapter XXX.12-13 ¹² And the matter of the spies is as follows. Many men from ancient times were maintained by the State, men who would go into the enemy's country and get into the Palace of the Persians, either on the pretext of selling something of by some other device, and after making a thorough investigation of everything, they would return to the land of the Romans, where they were able to report all the secrets of the enemy to the magistrates. ¹³ And they, furnished with this advance information, would be on their guard and nothing unforeseen would befall them. p353 And this practice had existed among the Medes also from ancient times. Indeed Chosroes, as they say, increased the salaries of his spies and profited by this forethought.

@gardenlizard1586

3 ай бұрын

​@@flyveto457my reply didn't post. So I'll try this Procopius The Anecdota Chapter 1.2-3 "² The reason for this is that it was not possible, as long as the actors were still alive, for these things to be recorded in the way they should have been. For neither was it possible to elude the vigilance of multitudes of spies, nor, if detected, to escape a most cruel death. Indeed, I was unable to feel confidence even in the most intimate of my kinsmen. ³ Nay, more, in the case of many of the events described in the previous narrative I was compelled to conceal the causes which led up to them. It will therefore be necessary for me in this book to disclose, not only those things which have hitherto remained undivulged, but also the causes of those occurrences which have already been described."

@gardenlizard1586

3 ай бұрын

Procopius The Anecdota Chapter 30.12-13 ¹² And the matter of the spies is as follows. Many men from ancient times were maintained by the State, men who would go into the enemy's country and get into the Palace of the Persians, either on the pretext of selling something of by some other device, and after making a thorough investigation of everything, they would return to the land of the Romans, where they were able to report all the secrets of the enemy to the magistrates. ¹³ And they, furnished with this advance information, would be on their guard and nothing unforeseen would befall them. p353 And this practice had existed among the Medes also from ancient times. Indeed Chosroes, as they say, increased the salaries of his spies and profited by this forethought.

thx for another *'thoughtful'* history upload 🥴 🦬🇨🇦🥶😁

Great analysis. I'd like to see more well researched works like these rather than the click baity slop pundits like metatron release.

Roman history the Romans wrote about themselves is, in my opinion, only one of two things. A complete and utter fabrication mixed with mystical half truths, or straight-out propaganda with bits and pieces of true history mixed in. For instance, what Caesar ACTUALLY such a great general, or did he just spin his narrative in the correct way? Was Constantine so 'Great' or was his love from the church enough to make him seem so angelic (which he wasn't)? I just wish we could fully untangle the web of popularisms and propaganda the Romans built up.

I have a hard time agreeing with the notion that historians who write about difficult times must have some sort of ulterior motives. Are historians who focus on the Great Depression unreliable simply because their topic of study is primarily grim and depressing? Are they unreliable because they do not acknowledge every man made mistake and catastrophe leading up to the Great Depression and merely discuss its beginning, effects, end, and lasting ramifications?

@HontasFarmer80

3 ай бұрын

My two cents. Let us consider that at the time of the depression FDR was disabled and being disabled was cause for riddicule. He took great pains to hid that he needed a wheel chair. Then 1000+ years from now there are only a few fragments about him. (So far in the future that people think Charlie Chaplain was the ruler of Germany at the same time.) A historian could rightly think that a fragment that calls FDR a slur for needing a wheel chair is just anti FDR propaganda. I write this as one who thinks its likely Elagabalus was trans, and if anything stodgy old Roman men would see only that and care about only that. Hence no writings about her tax policy or building a new aqueduct or something.

@Mankorra_Gomorrah

3 ай бұрын

@@HontasFarmer80 calling someone what is at the time considered a slur is grounds for considering that a biased source. Saying “the economy is worse than a decade ago and the rent hikes have doubled the number of homeless people” isn’t. This is an important distinction because in the video he specifically says that the fact our sources of this time focus on the weak Roman economy as evidence that we cannot rely on anything they say.

@HontasFarmer80

3 ай бұрын

@@Mankorra_Gomorrah Good point.

1. The surgery might have been a ancient Greek surgery to have male kids where the left testicle is taken. 1.5 his wives might have given him daughter's and it's not recorded. 2. He might have been circumcised. 3. Unknown surgery to have him be hard to have kids.

The patron saint of the modern left.

The so called history of Elagabalus is little more than hysterical gossip & slander. Like much of ancient biography it cannot be taken seriously. All deposed & condemned Emperors had scurrilous gossip told about them. Palaces have always engendered stories of debauchery & extravagance, up to today. In the past there was little to restrain such tittle tattle, & they became accepted as 'real' history. Cassius Dio was biased as were most historians. They didn't write objective histories, but to themes that suited them. The Historian Augusta is just not to be taken seriously.

I believe an interesting corollary to this rather excellent video contextualizing Elagabalus in roman history and society, would be one to contextualize him in queer history. What this video makes abundantly clear is that no one can claim for certain what his gender identity was. However, many of those anecdotes, exaggerated or not, tend to mirror representative things a transgender/genderfluid person nowadays would say or do that would identify them as parts of those groups. Therefore, he had the "vibes" of someone who was outside cisgender norms, besides his clearly not-strictly-heterosexual sexuality that wasn't all that surprising in Rome. While we cannot decide history based on vibes, and it would be wrong for say, a museum to claim that he factually was non-cisgender, it seems at least probable that he was, to the point that it can be seriously mentioned as a solid speculation. And that is also enough for communities to reclaim him as a antique example of trans/genderqueer people existing for as long as mankind has, and debunk ideological claims that it is only a recent, made-up phenomenon. Why him specifically is stirring so much controversy could be because there is plausible deniability as to him actually being so, unlike for example the scythian trans priestesses order Herodotus describes, and also because the roman empire is kind of a sacred, mythical figure for many modern reactionary people and they could never accept that their idealized glorious empire could have been led by someone from the minority they currently despise and persecute.

@HontasFarmer80

3 ай бұрын

I don't know that it is "wrong" for a musem to claim Elagabalus was "non cisgender". It's more than a "vibe" as this video puts it if he/she really did want SRS then that is everything. Even if that is discarded so much of it hints at not being strictly straight.

@AzureAzucar

3 ай бұрын

@@HontasFarmer80 Oh he certainly wasn't straight, that much is pretty clear, but we're talking about gender. The SRS bit could be a maliciously invented piece of slander to highlight his bad decisions to favor himself over the good of the empire, and plays into the setereotype of the time. However it does sound too specific and almost too informed, to the point there is likely at least some partial truth to it. But all that is not good enough for any history-representing establishment such as a museum to claim it as factually true. It is an educated speculation that can and probably should be mentioned but only as such, as it is speculation nonetheless.

@almanacofsleep

3 ай бұрын

May I say but I think "contextualizing him in queer history" is another way of saying you want to apply "presentism" to recontextualize him to suit a narrative. Gender identity, or any identity based around sexuality is a modern concept goes no later than the 20th century. It's not to say that people from the past didn't engage in behaviours that we would today group into sexual identities that would be described as queer but by labeling a historical figure as queer is to project this present moment onto the past.

@AzureAzucar

3 ай бұрын

@@almanacofsleep Unless you mean the word queer specifically, I believe that is factually wrong, and that identities based on an individual's sexuality and/or gender have existed for far longer than that. Off the top of my head, I know one of the jewish holy books makes the distinction between types of individuals, including individuals of a gender but with a body of the opposite sex (iirc they even separate pre and post physical transition), as well as at least some variations of the hindu religion. And that's not even considering all I don't know, nor even considering all humankind currently doesn't know about all the civilizations that ever were.

@prdalien0

3 ай бұрын

Right, insane people have indeed always existed.

Elagabalus my favorite emperor

"ancient example of an lgbtq individual" "LGBTQ" did not exist 14 years ago. The T and Q part was not a thing 20 years ago. And the B part, barely.

@aedes947

3 ай бұрын

It is way older than just 20 years

@me67galaxylife

3 ай бұрын

@@aedes947 I have yet to see a single proof despite leftist constantly claiming "it was always like this !" about every single thing they invented in the last 20 years

@ManiacMayhem7256

3 ай бұрын

​@@me67galaxylife Aedes is actually correct. Trans stuff (and pdfphilia) was always there. It was super interconnected with the movement in Weimar, and connected with the movements coming out of the stonewall riots and the 70s french philosophers

@comentedonakeyboard

3 ай бұрын

And this concept certainly did not in ancient Rome

@me67galaxylife

3 ай бұрын

@@aedes947 Yeah in your mind with made up arguments and "proofs" sure

Elegabalus was an S-tier Roman emperor, his greatness and brilliance comparable to that of julius caesar and augustus.

@Kneenibble

3 ай бұрын

Weak bait, do better kid

@usurparemagnus

3 ай бұрын

@@Kneenibble Bruh I'm ain't joking. The shit he pulled off will astonish even julius caesar or Augustus. This guy was an utter menace that not giving him an S-tier ranking would be a disservice.

@someshtbaglcpl5455

3 ай бұрын

A fellow Thersites watcher in the wild?

@bluewizzard8843

3 ай бұрын

Haha 😂😂

@rc8937

3 ай бұрын

Yeah, I watched that episode from Thersites' channel. He made it clear he was joking when ranking Elagabalus that high.

I've refrained from clicking on the metatron video because the KZread history community has an unfortunate trend of being somewhat reactionary with topics like these, and I like metatron enough that it'd suck to see if he indeed took this route in his video. But I clicked this one very safely because you've always seemed like a pretty reasonable and facts oriented person. I already mostly knew the broad strokes of this story, but this expanded my knowledge quite a bit! I specifically didn't know our sources were mostly byzantine works rather than the original imperial documents. I often get in arguments about this because I'm fairly active in the LGBT community, and I always feel the need to stress how roman historians were writing fiction almost as often if not more often than they wrote facts. But a lot of people ultimately take the stance that Elagabalus being specifically transgender is the more conservative and cautious take and in the absence of more details prefer adhering to the "official" narrative sort of speak, especially in the context of queer history often having been victim of "queer erasure" where, it is said, and it is somewhat truth, that for a long time there was a trend to downplay or outright the deny the queerness of attested historical characters to better fit the social mores of the time and therefore there's a general idea of a need to revisit these characters and reassess them. Anyways, I could ramble on, but I'll stop myself, pretty great video! If there's one small thing I'll nitpick that might rub some people off potentially is that with Elagabalus preferred gender being somewhat ambiguous, it might be more polite to use the pronoun "them". I don't know how useful that might be, since I don't know how often such topics will be covered, but I figured I'd mention it anyways.

@HontasFarmer80

3 ай бұрын

I watched his video and I would not call it reactionary, nor would I call this one reactionary. Metatron does tend to frame the thought that Elagabalus was trans as being politically motivated. It isn't. Transwomen and the LGBT community at large just recognize in Elgabalus someone who if they lived now would've been one of us. I like how this video puts it. The quote about wanting surgery is either everything or its nothing. At a minimum that tidbit fits with real thoughts every transwoman has so well whoever wrote them has to have known someone trans, been trans, or was writing about Elagabalus who was trans... either in Medieval Byzantium or classical Rome.

@terrymortal5517

3 ай бұрын

"I'm a Trans man so I believe that if you don't agree with me then you're transphobic" I fixed your nonsense

@Qwerty-jy9mj

3 ай бұрын

it's not useful at all.

@ColasTeam

3 ай бұрын

@@HontasFarmer80 I just meant to say that I'd hate it if he was the type to call the Elagabalus conversation "woke" :P Not that I think he is, but if he was, I'd rather not know. And I agree with everything else! But as someone who thinks it's important to teach people about the nuances of history, I always feel the need to stress to everybody that we're really not sure, about the veracity of the stories or how to interpret them. And that for that matter, even the imperial Romans had a different view of gender and identity that we do nowadays, a topic that often gets neglected.

@Hanesboi

3 ай бұрын

I disagree with the they/them pronouns being used honestly... I think if we know someone wanted to be referred to as a lady, we should do that (except the sources here are fucky lol), because using they/them pronouns as gender neutral to trans women, especially in our time is not very nice. Like, I mean this because you say it should be done for somewhat ambiguous genders, but you'll more likely get closer to Elagabalus' gender identity with "She" than the "They" that's sometimes used to casually dismiss a trans person's identity.

My understanding is the fact that they demanded to be referred to by female pronouns and (therefore feminine language endings) is found in no other case of a Roman slander of an individual, which is why the consensus has shifted towards that they were transgender.

@NeriaHopes

3 ай бұрын

Or more interestingly, it points to transgender people not being entirely foreign to the roman world. It may well be this emperor was slandered by comparison with another vilified group, but then the point in using them for arguments on contemporary issues is that such people apparently existed. I am perceiving quite a disconnect between people who really just seem to be interested in different kinds things here, one group wishing to accurately characterize a historical figure, the other more interested in analyzing a culture. And one of them is decidedly too much influenced by people just getting mad when someone doesn't default to masculine pronouns for a person whose wishes we specifically don't know.

@RC--ji2ov

3 ай бұрын

⁠@@NeriaHopestrans people certainly weren’t foreign to rome, the Scythians were known to have a sort of priest-ish class of trans women or possibly intersex (or both) called the enaree, they’re quite interesting. We can actually thank roman sources for some accounts on them. Also i haven’t read on them much but iirc the celts had a similar thing going on. Truth is rome kind of homogenized european gender roles and then christianity put the nail in the coffin

@Qwerty-jy9mj

3 ай бұрын

@@NeriaHopes wait, so we go from "not found elsewhere as an insult" (although all of his accounts are broadly demeaning) to: "it must mean Rome had transexuals roaming around the city"?

@Qwerty-jy9mj

3 ай бұрын

@@RC--ji2ov you mean Romans wrote that Eastern peoples were suspicious and had exotic cultural traits? how odd...

@HontasFarmer80

3 ай бұрын

That is a big one. I think there is a quote about wanting to be called the Mistress and the Empress instead of the emperor. I can't remember the exact quote but it sounded like something someone who was misgendered would say like right now on Twitter.