“Joyfully obey” has to be one of the grimmest phrases I have ever heard . Thank you so much for articulating so well this idea, this reality, which I think is true, in that a conservative/fundamentalist religious upbringing primes the pump, so to speak, for really problematic ways of thinking and being in the world.

When I became a parent, I swore that I'd never tell my kids, "because I said so." If I asked them to do or not do something, I had a reason, and if they were asking why, they deserved a proper answer. As they got older, it became more of a conversation about making good choices. I did this because it was how I wish I'd been raised - with respect for me as a thinking person. My 17 and 19 year old have never been defiant or rebellious, and I think this is because of the respect I've always shown them. That isn't to say we have perfection over here - I still have to remind kids to get chores done - but that's more about ADHD than defiance.

@carnifaxx

Ай бұрын

I have also very good experience with respectful parenting (but the respect has to go both sides), I was actually raised up in such family and we never experienced those "enraged" teenagers, of course mood swings are normal, but there was overall just calm and trust and friendly atmosphere in our house. Also I've never experienced that our parents would pressure us to go for the best grades etc., they just gave us support and books etc. for whatever field we found suitable for us, but surprisingly we all have university education, know at least two foreign languages... And we also have stable relationships, even our ex's (which are quite few, because the relationships took years) are welcome in our families, because we just split our ways friendly and stayed in contact. I don't know, the only "negative" side effect of his parenting style I found is that we were not very much in contact with manipulative or toxic people, so even though we knew theoretically that these situations exist and that we have help available, our orientations was a bit ... "off"... like in the sense of a bit naive, giving multiple chances to people who didn't deserve them because we expected that people would be able and willing to maintain "standards" and ethical behaviour (this is mostly about work environment and colleagues). As I am older, I feel so tired of seeing people who go for relationship styles that I saw failing so many times before and on so many levels, it almost looks like they live and nurture from completely unnecessary and over-dramatized situations they keep creating... if it was only agreeing adults, I wouldn't mind, but they keep getting children there as well and those children never felt safe in their own home and that's a very terrifying idea.

@yippee8570

Ай бұрын

Yes, though sometimes I had just had enough, with my autistic ADHD son who would want to know why he had to do even the most basic of things and would question *all* *the* *time*, so "because I said so" became reasonable in those moments. Bless him, he's had a lot of struggles in his life. He's grown up now and the sweetest, most polite young man. He's not independent but he does his absolute best to be and to be a good and decent human being.

As an ECE teacher, I DESPISE the phrase "first time listener." I refuse to teach preschool aged kids that they are required to obey any and all adults around them without question. Even if I don't order kids to do anything wrong or dangerous, what happens when another adult with nefarious intentions comes along?

@yippee8570

Ай бұрын

That is exactly what happened to me! I made sure my kids grew up knowing how to say 'no' to adults. It got them in trouble with my parents, who still couldn't see why it was a problem, despite knowing I was CSA for 8 years and it basically ruined my life. My dad was always a 'because I said so' type and I was very obedient in part because I was scared of him. He'd hate to know that now, so I've never told him.

Well said from a 70-year-old who's stepfather was a supreme bully and could be physically abusive. I was petrified of him and have blocked memories of several incidents in my childhood and remained in fear of him until the day he died. My advice is look to hunter/gathers for guidance on how to raise children. All by example.

@jenniferhunter4074

Ай бұрын

Yep. How can you have any relationship that is created by bullying or abuse? The victim will run eventually. The victim will never be honest to their abuser. How can you have any true relationship? And then, these abusive parents are surprised when their adult children go no-contact. There's more to rearing a young human being to adulthood than food and shelter. We aren't baby turtles or other babies from other species. We require a lot more socialization and frankly, rewarding good behavior works. Think of the idea of lucky socks or lucky rituals. People will desire a good outcome so they will do all sorts of things to get that reward including lucky socks and rituals. It's the same system that people use to play the lottery .. because just one win will fire that dopamine. Many adults, traumatized by their own upbringing, repeat the cycle of abuse rather than thinking and understanding and deconstructing their abused past.

One of the most heartbreaking parts of growing up in an environment hellbent on breaking a child's will is the amount of time, money, and energy you have to spend healing and learning about yourself as an adult. I'm glad I got out, but I'm so angry that even at my big age, I still don't fully trust my own thoughts, feelings, and instincts.

Thank you for bringing attention to how small scale personal choices and behavior affect the whole of our society. I think people too often underestimate how much impact such things have since this society focuses so much on big, tangible, showy things and "achievements" rather than what really matters, like the way we relate to others and the world around us. A more personal consequence that authoritarian parents probably don't consider is that their child may choose not to have a relationship with them. That might start early, where the child chooses to focus on connecting with peers and thus being even less willing to listen to their parent. This could prove dangerous for the child, depending on their peers. Or they might realize as an adult how harmful their parent's behavior was and choose to go no contact. You'd think that might make some parents consider non-coercive parenting. But they probably believe their child owes them loyalty and relationship, no matter what. But it isn't true. If someone treats you disrespectfully or harms you, you have every right to walk away. Blood or not. I'm glad to see more people realizing that and taking the brave step to protect themselves and break the cycle of abuse. It's not easy, but sometimes it is the best thing we can do to heal ourselves. Which I can't help but think is a necessary step in healing our society.

I was raised in a strict religious home, and I don't think that my parents or any of the parents in my community really understood the ramifications of authoritarian, dogmatic parenting. I remember going out into the world and being so grossly unprepared for so many life circumstances because my parents never saw fit to teach me about certain things, or I got the religious version of the teaching that is completely unhelpful in the real world where not everyone shares those religious beliefs. The result was having to learn a lot of things the hard way by dealing with the consequences or by seeking out the information I needed myself so that I could make an informed decision. I wish that highly religious parents could understand that their parenting choices do not always lead to shining outcomes for their children and that religion is not always sufficient to meet someone's needs. I also wish they understood that obeying authority figures and/or the patriarchy without question is not all it's cracked up to be either. I've landed in more than a few abusive relationships, toxic work environments, and other problematic relationship dynamics as a result of never being taught to value myself and have boundaries. There are just so many issues with religious teachings in parenting. At the end of the day, children deserve to be informed and given ALL of the information, and they deserve to believe that they don't have to put up with abuse simply because it comes from an authority figure (at a minimum).

Thank you for r speaking out. I was raised in a healthy protestant environment. I always knew that I could choose and embrace my life and my moral path. I understood choice. I do have members of my family that are unsure of my "salvation", but my choice was surrounded with love. And I have always been surrounded with love. The horrors that have been perpetrated upon a generation of children because of evangelical extremism is horrifying. Thank you.

all of this. The most profound thing my adult child has said to me, was that she can't understand how many friends of hers can't admit when they are wrong about something. Like, it's a crisis when they have to apologize or change their mind about something. Instead of seeking answers, being wrong, changing your mind when you have more information, she finds a lot of people just buckle down and ride the horse of "being right" to death. She said, she can always change course, because I (an adult) always apologized to my kids when I was wrong about something and taught her the importance of being able to admit failures or mistakes. Adults modeling changing, openness and doing better when you know better is so important. I find conservative american parenting to be so incredibly focused on righteousness and bossiness. Adults always being bigger and more knowing than children. It teaches them to be uncurious and to be bullies because someone else is right because they are bigger / have more power and not because they have more information or more reflection. If you are strong, you are right. Opinions and decisions are not fact based or nuanced, they are based on power and ignorance. It's such a shame. My kids feel freer because they don't have to hold on to bad decisions and bad feelings. They can be wrong and their world doesnt crumble. They can let go and find better solutions, because being wrong doesnt take anything from you.

I love your content. It makes me think and reflect in such healthy ways. Thank you.

I occasionally got forms asking how I disciplined my children. I answered “I don’t, I talk to them.” I was 100% aligned with every thing you said. Unfortunately my coparent was not.

Sweet! That book was free to add to my audible library!

Maybe a balance between the two can be successful I believe children don't just need boundaries but look for them. Learning discipline helps with learning in school. Learning to listen to your parents, especially when you scream "stop"when danger is imminent seems very important. I would prefer to have confidence my child will listen

@ParkrosePermaculture

Ай бұрын

A boundary is something you create for yourself not for somebody else

@fairywingsonroses

Ай бұрын

As a teacher, I do agree that boundaries are important; and in a classroom of 20+ kids, you absolutely have to have some semblance of control and order as a point of both keeping everyone safe and creating an environment where everyone can learn. That being said, I think there is a difference between the expectation that children will be polite and respectful (especially in a school environment or other place where it is needed to maintain safety, respect, and efficiency) and approaching the situation with a driving force that doesn't allow for compromise or individual needs and differences. Even as a teacher, I tried to be open-minded with students and tried to give them some autonomy within the classroom space. Many of the school's toughest kids actually did okay in my class because they knew I wasn't going to bully them into total compliance. They knew I expected them to be respectful (and to hopefully hand in their homework), but the fact that I gave them the space to make some of their own choices (even if those coices were bad ones) actually helped them to do better behaviorally and academically. They were a lot more willing to see my side of the argument and do what I asked them to do because I gave them the choice to do it or not. I think the real problem with out of control behavior in schools is that parents don't really do a good job of reinforcing good behavior at home. For some of these kids, school is the ONLY place where they have any autonomy at all, and they often fight with teachers over it because it's all they have.

@Meerkat628

Ай бұрын

​​@@ParkrosePermacultureYou can most certainly create boundaries for others. Polite society gives boundaries such as "dont kill people", "dont steal", etc and enforces them with force if necessary. Children do need boundaries and rules, they just need common sense boundaries and rules. And yes, many times it's to make others comfortable, but not just adults. Most of their peers won't be able to verbalize and enforce their own boundaries and the majority of people young and old do not like excessive noise, hitting, etc. Like the person above said, you can still give kids a level of autonomy while enforcing basic rules and expectations. I was a teacher too. An iron fist is just as bad as opening the fence gates and letting the horses run free, metaphorically speaking.

I was a child who went through very authoritative parenting, the result is a failed relationship with my mother I haven’t had any contact with her since 2018 😶 Im lucky to have my dad and my step-mum

@fairywingsonroses

Ай бұрын

Same. My mother and I are still in contact, but the trust has been eroded to the point where I personally have no interest in rebuilding it. She chose to rule over me with an iron fist, and I chose to build a relationship based on lies and deception as a result. I don't think either of us behaved admirably, but I'm certainly not going to trust her with anything important in my life ever again when allowing her to have that kind of control has ended badly almost every single time with the last instance being just over a year ago. We still talk, but it's mostly about mundane happenings. We don't have a deep relationship. It makes me sad, but at the same time, I'm not going to feel bad about protecting myself and my daughter from her abhorrent need to control everything.

@jkennedy299

Ай бұрын

@@fairywingsonroses thankyou for sharing your experience And yeah i feel like if i had not severed ties then i would be in the same situation you’re going through

This is so beautiful. Thank you ❤

As Ursula K. Leguin’s version of the Tao Te Ching says, “The good the truly good do has no end in view. The right the very righteous do has an end in view. And those who act in true obedience to law roll up their sleeves and make the disobedient obey.”

Religion is taken far too seriously in America.

How did you get them to stop hitting as little kids?

Fascinating...you have an interesting perspective on this topic! I am not so sure this is correct, many of the people I grew up with and went to school with were raised in sort of free spirit, free thinking households and ended up addicted to drugs, alcohol, wrecked lives, very bad outcomes. Perhaps this is not an argument for the Evangelical model, but only an argument against the extremely liberal, free spirit model. Good role models (authority figures even) are useful!

@sambartlett1435

Ай бұрын

You might be interested in reading more about the differences between authoritarian, permissive, and authoritative parenting.

@permaculturesolutions3539

Ай бұрын

I’ve met many people from all walks of life and parenting styles that were addicts. Addiction is an extremely complex issue and many times stems from neurological issues and imbalances in the brain and often has little to do with how one was raised.

Americans: *one medical issue away from homelessness* Also Americans: communism is the devil

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but I will say, when I think about my peer group growing up, the people who had stricter parents turned out on the whole to be the happier and more successful people I know in the long run (especially the the asian kids I went to school with all turned out GREAT despite extremely strict parenting), while many of the people with far less strict parents fell through the cracks of drug addiction or self-loathing. I'm not saying I've wholesale lost faith in my original gut instinct toward giving children more freedom than I was ever afforded, but I do find the data I've seen on this subject about how various kids turned out to be cause for a careful pause to thoroughly consider which lessons are actually to be learned from the obvious failure that is brutal, dictatorial or abusive parenting, and which things are cases of mistaken correlation-causation. Might we be throwing the baby out with the bath water if we are not careful? Once again, the obvious average success rate of many asian children to me suggests this might be possible if we are not careful. To me it's important to distinguish between an empowering sort of strict (i.e. making sure kids do their chores, have hobbies, uphold commitments, etc) and a controlling/abusive sort of strict (banning dress, identity, relationships, critical thinking, etc).

@ParkrosePermaculture

Ай бұрын

What does "turn out great" mean to you? Non-authoritarian not permissive. Good parenting is connected, compassionate, and seeks to guide and support kids and help them learn to navigate the The world. Statistically, the reason folks turn to substance use is trauma...not the lack of it.

@cherylj7460

24 күн бұрын

@@ParkrosePermacultureoh! So well said!

@Cuttuttlefish

13 күн бұрын

​@@ParkrosePermaculture Turn out great means a career they are happy with, a set of non-dysfunctional relationships, finding a spouse if they want one, rewarding hobbies and a generally a stable life with enough financial success to be comfortable. It means not being addicted to drugs, not failing to complete education, and not being involved with crime. You are wrong about substance abuse, dead wrong, and saying "statistically" isn't an argument. I observed many people with no trauma develop drug addictions first hand. You'll probably claim with magical thinking that they must have had trauma I was unaware of, but no, I don't think so, these are people I knew well. The real cause of drug addiction is simply exposure to drugs and openness to experience. I saw it in my own life with at least a half dozen examples. I get that my life experience isn't a statistic, but it's enough for me to know that chic notions of substance abuse being "all about trauma" are wrong. I can tell the followers of this channel live in a certain sort of bubble so I know I'm not going to get anywhere, but people need guard rails until they are 25 and their frontal lobes are fully developed. The nuance you draw between non-authoritarian and permissive are semantic only, great red meat for your fans with pre-determined lofty ideas, but really it's all just distinction without difference. I'll grant you that if you can be non-authoritarian AND non-permissive as you say, that's great, by all means. But in practice and in my observation I think it's weasel words and ends up permissive, using two words for what essentially amounts to the same thing all so you can claim all the success stories as your own while disclaiming failures as "oh no that wasn't non-authoritarian, that was permissive!". It's just word games, no different to the "that wasn't capitalism, it was corporatism!" or "that wasn't communism, it was state capitalism!" arguments you see in the political sphere.

You should read Karl Marx. You may change your view on Communism. When has Communism ever NOT turned authoritarianism? I’m sorry the church you were involved in hurt you so bad btw.

@ParkrosePermaculture

Ай бұрын

Wild that you think I haven't read Marx...that Marxism isn't something my kids and I don't discuss at the dinner table on the regular.

@mjmarit

Ай бұрын

@@ParkrosePermaculture are they all on board with the ideology that led to the destruction of 100 million innocent lives just in the 20th century? One of your children must be a Christian if you aren’t grooming them, at least not a complete image of your worldview.